Thread: Made in USA and Trade Law thread

nebish - 1/23/2017 at 11:24 PM

Decided to make it's own thread. From the campaign trail, the inaugural address to executive order canceling TPP (would've failed to pass Congress anyway). There are meetings scheduled with Canada and Mexico, NAFTA will be up for renegotiation. That came out today.

Trump met with 12 CEOs this morning before meeting with several union leaders later in the day.

quote:
“If you go to another country” and cut U.S. jobs “we are going to be imposing a very major border tax” on that product, he told the executives.


The other side of the equation is Trump is hoping to cut regulatory costs and taxes these businesses are subjected to.

Dow CEO said:

quote:
"I would take the president at his word here: He’s not going to do anything to harm competitiveness," Liveris said. "He’s going to actually make us all more competitive."


Link - https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-23/trump-said-to-meet-w ith-dow-ceo-liveris-labor-leaders-on-monday

I was listening to Thom Hartman today during the meeting Trump was having with business CEOs and Thom was going on about "he isn't going to do anything against these people's interests. The Republican party is the arm that these people use to secure their profits and position...where are the unions, notice they weren't part of the meeting. No surprise because Republicans do not represent the goals of union workers - Please allow my paraphrasing there.

Then wouldn't you know, later in the day a meeting with a hose of union leaders at the White House. Unfortunately I wasn't able to hear Thom's reaction to that. The meeting was publicized this morning..imagine Hartman doesn't follow Trump's schedule too closely though.

Imagine that...a Republican President calling leaders of various labor unions to the White House.


pops42 - 1/23/2017 at 11:26 PM

Will trump stop having his products made overseas?


nebish - 1/23/2017 at 11:27 PM

Please feel free to post anything in here, something you found that was made in USA, something you wish was USA. Pricing differences, etc. Anything. I virtually live my life searching out made in USA items and know that alot of things can be found and I personally find it very rewarding when you don't think you can find it and then you do.

Or the thread can be used for political trade talk also. Jobs, trade history, etc.

But I have a special photo for Bhawk...look what a trip to Target showed up today?



But yeah, sometimes buying American costs more. These were $1.49 compared to the $.75 China garlic your store had.


pops42 - 1/23/2017 at 11:32 PM

Mexico will not renegotiate nafta http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37945913
And they are NOT paying for any f#cking wall.


nebish - 1/23/2017 at 11:40 PM

quote:
Mexico will not renegotiate nafta http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37945913
And they are NOT paying for any f#cking wall.



Well, yeah because they stand to lose...alot.

Thank you for that link. I take serious exception with one thing however:

quote:
The Congressional Research Service, which provides independent analysis, said in 2015: "In reality, Nafta did not cause the huge job losses feared by the critics or the large economic gains predicted by supporters." It also said: "The net overall effect of Nafta on the US economy appears to have been relatively modest, primarily because trade with Canada and Mexico accounts for a small percentage of US GDP."


Countless sources can be provided that state otherwise.

As to the wall...I always thought that Mexico would never pay for it directly and that an import tariff would in fact be the funding to build it. Trump has never said that though. The fact that he so emphatically said Mexico would pay for it and then said now "they will pay us back" is clearly a broken promise unless he somehow gets it paid for indirectly with a tariff on Mexican goods coming in.

[Edited on 1/23/2017 by nebish]


nebish - 1/23/2017 at 11:41 PM

quote:
Will trump stop having his products made overseas?


He most certainly should have done that long ago.


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 01:33 AM

quote:
Mexico will not renegotiate nafta http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37945913
And they are NOT paying for any f#cking wall.


___________________________________________________________________________ ____________

Wrong again numbnuts.

Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto said that he will visit President Trump soon along with the Canadia PM to discuss the renegotiation of NAFTA.


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 01:34 AM

RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.


pops42 - 1/24/2017 at 02:57 AM

quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???


LeglizHemp - 1/24/2017 at 02:59 AM

i still withhold judgement for results.....which will take months to see


nebish - 1/24/2017 at 04:15 AM

Changing trade law, a bipartisan issue! I sometimes wonder if Trump will have more Democrats or Republicans supporting him on trade renegotiation?

Sherrod Brown is not only one of my Senators, but was also a very strong supporter of Hillary Clinton in Ohio and at one time was rumored to be a VP candidate for her.

From Brown's website:

quote:
Today’s Action is Among Series of Steps Brown Outlined to Retool U.S. Trade Policy
Monday, January 23, 2017

WASHINGTON, D.C. – After more than 30 years of fighting for a fair trade agenda that puts American workers first, U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) is applauding President Donald Trump’s executive order withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Brown reached out to Trump immediately following the election, offering to work with the President to renegotiate NAFTA and outlining specific steps Trump should take to fulfill his campaign promises on trade. Trump responded with a hand-written note.

“Throwing out TPP is the first necessary step in overhauling our trade policy to put American workers first,” said Brown. “I stand ready to support Ohio workers by working with the Trump Administration to renegotiate NAFTA, put American workers ahead of corporate profits, and create jobs.”

As a long-time advocate for fair trade, Brown has stood up to presidents of both parties against shortsighted trade agreements that ship U.S. jobs overseas. He led the bipartisan opposition to NAFTA in 1993 – as a freshman in the U.S. House of Representatives – and to CAFTA in 2005. He has been the leading opponent of TPP for several years and led opposition against fast-track authority in the Senate, which would have made it easier for Congress to approve TPP and other massive trade deals with limited debate.
https://www.brown.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/brown-applauds-executiv e-action-on-tpp-after-decades-fighting-for-fair-trade


Swifty - 1/24/2017 at 05:54 AM

There needs to be symmetry in these kinds of agreements. If Trump's style of negotiation is belligerent and his only goal is to enforce US interests, then he could force Mexico to accept conditions that impose hardship on its citizens. Trump's style of squeezing someone to get the best deal may not be in the best US interest.

Right now Mexico has turned over large amounts of land that used to be devoted to subsistence agriculture to cash cropping and these products are exported to the US and Canada. What if this land was turned back to subsistence cropping for the Mexican market and Mexican products disappeared from US stores? What would this do to the average household grocery budget? Food costs could easily increase 50% which would be devastating for low income Americans.

Mexico has also stepped up security on its southern border and this has stopped the flow of Central Americans coming to the US. The majority of illegals in the US with criminal records are Central Americans. Obama has been deporting them and Trump wants to continue deporting them. The problem is that they have not just accepted their fate and gotten jobs, mainly because there are no jobs and many don't speak Spanish. Instead they join gangs and these are very large violent gangs. If Mexico provides Central Americans an open route back to the US many of them would come back. A wall is not going to stop them from coming back to the US where the authorities would have to chase them down again. This pattern could get very expensive.

What about the drug cartels in northern Mexico? If any trade deal displaces laborers in central Mexico then more will join the labor hungry drug gangs. More labor means more tunnels and more drugs crossing the border. This will require more border surveillance and security. It will be even more difficult to control if Central Americans are employed as mules.

Renegotiating NAFTA is a lot more complicated than slapping tariffs on products and getting jobs back to the US. Destabilizing Mexico could have nightmarish consequences in the US.

There is also a big cultural divide between the Trump camp and Mexicans. Trump has figured out how to appeal to blue collar Americans but to do this he had to trash Mexicans. I really doubt Mexicans are going to treat him royally and this will piss him off and then his ego will erupt.


nebish - 1/24/2017 at 02:12 PM

quote:
There needs to be symmetry in these kinds of agreements. If Trump's style of negotiation is belligerent and his only goal is to enforce US interests, then he could force Mexico to accept conditions that impose hardship on its citizens. Trump's style of squeezing someone to get the best deal may not be in the best US interest.

Right now Mexico has turned over large amounts of land that used to be devoted to subsistence agriculture to cash cropping and these products are exported to the US and Canada. What if this land was turned back to subsistence cropping for the Mexican market and Mexican products disappeared from US stores? What would this do to the average household grocery budget? Food costs could easily increase 50% which would be devastating for low income Americans.

Mexico has also stepped up security on its southern border and this has stopped the flow of Central Americans coming to the US. The majority of illegals in the US with criminal records are Central Americans. Obama has been deporting them and Trump wants to continue deporting them. The problem is that they have not just accepted their fate and gotten jobs, mainly because there are no jobs and many don't speak Spanish. Instead they join gangs and these are very large violent gangs. If Mexico provides Central Americans an open route back to the US many of them would come back. A wall is not going to stop them from coming back to the US where the authorities would have to chase them down again. This pattern could get very expensive.

What about the drug cartels in northern Mexico? If any trade deal displaces laborers in central Mexico then more will join the labor hungry drug gangs. More labor means more tunnels and more drugs crossing the border. This will require more border surveillance and security. It will be even more difficult to control if Central Americans are employed as mules.

Renegotiating NAFTA is a lot more complicated than slapping tariffs on products and getting jobs back to the US. Destabilizing Mexico could have nightmarish consequences in the US.

There is also a big cultural divide between the Trump camp and Mexicans. Trump has figured out how to appeal to blue collar Americans but to do this he had to trash Mexicans. I really doubt Mexicans are going to treat him royally and this will piss him off and then his ego will erupt.



Good points Swifty. As I said, Mexico has a lot to lose, I do have a hard time seeing what Trump could give them that would leave them with a favorable feeling on a new NAFTA. Canada on the other hand, I've read there are things that they would like modernized and updated which would favor them more in certain ways than it does now, and depending what is negotiated on the other end that might be a win-win perhaps.

I think we need to be careful when predicting both winning and losing scenarios coming out of a renegotiated or trade with Mexico involving tariffs simply because most of which we were told leading up to the passage of NAFTA has not taken root, or in fact the opposite happened. Speaking to illegal immigration, NAFTA was seen as a way to boost the economy in Mexico and stem illegal immigration flows from their country. But the opposite happened, illegal immigration from Mexico soared.

Lately, it has been my understanding that there were more Central Americans coming into our country illegally than Mexicans, certainly not stopped it. I'd be happy to read something supporting your claim that Central American illegal immigration to the US has "stopped".

Quickly I just found this from fall 2016

quote:
For the second time in three years, the U.S. Border Patrol is apprehending more non-Mexicans than Mexicans along the southwest border, reflecting a renewed surge of Central American migrants fleeing violence and gang warfare in their home countries.


And

quote:
Through August of this year, there were a total of 369,411 apprehensions on the U.S.-Mexico border. More than half of those were of non-Mexicans, the statistics show. As of July, the border patrol had apprehended 57,344 people from El Salvador, 58,337 from Guatemala and 41,042 from Honduras compared to 160,193 from Mexico.

Apprehensions of non-Mexicans first outnumbered those from Mexico in 2014, according to an analysis by the Pew Research Center. Faye Hipsman, policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute in Washington, D.C., says the trend isn’t fading.


link - https://www.texastribune.org/2016/09/15/central-american-illegal-immigratio n-us-border-loo/

I agree it is a very complicated issue and you raise points that many may not be considering, all things need considered. My position on the complicated nature of it is that so many US and foreign companies have invested and positioned themselves to export goods from Mexico into the US that really anything would have to be phased in because drastic shock to the system really could have a detrimental effect on both countries.

Trump's focus may just be on new investments and new production. So then any new construction of plants or expansion at existing plants would have to be done in the US or they face that border tax. That seems like a much easier issue to grapple with, although from my point of view it wouldn't be ideal, however it may satisfy some of your concerns while also balancing the needs of large companies like the auto industry and their supporting businesses.

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by nebish]


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 02:46 PM

quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Chain - 1/24/2017 at 05:45 PM

quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.



Actually Congress never ratified the treaty and thus it has never been in effect. His recent executive order was redundant and so he killed an already dead horse....Unless Congress wants to ratify it...But it's a good photo opt. for his supporters who don't understand the nuances of trade agreements and how they're ratified. I wonder if any of these folks visit this forum?

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by Chain]

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by Chain]


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 07:04 PM

quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.



Actually Congress never ratified the treaty and thus it has never been in effect. His recent executive order was redundant and so he killed an already dead horse....Unless Congress wants to ratify it...But it's a good photo opt. for his supporters who don't understand the nuances of trade agreements and how they're ratified. I wonder if any of these folks visit this forum?

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by Chain]

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by Chain]

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Congress will never see the "treaty" now that it is dead.
The Union Leadership is very happy the TPP piece of crap is dead too:

UNION LEADERS APPLAUD PRESIDENT TRUMP During Meeting at White House (VIDEO)
Trump told the union leaders the US withdrew from TPP and they all cheered and applauded him.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/01/union-leaders-applaud-president-tr ump-meeting-white-house-video/



Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 07:05 PM

Union leaders and their members are even happier today:

• Two orders reviving the Keystone XL pipeline and Dakota Access piplines. He also signed three other related orders that would: expedite the environmental permitting process for infrastructure projects related to the pipelines; direct the Commerce Department to streamline the manufacturing permitting process; and give the Commerce Department 180 days to maximize the use of U.S. steel in the pipeline.


pops42 - 1/24/2017 at 08:17 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 08:49 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418

___________________________________________________________________________ _________

You really are a f'n idiot.
Read my post. I was just noting that fast-track had been enabled. I did not and have never posted any support for TPP.

I see your public school education failed to teach you to read.
That is okay. The Democrats need as many idiots as they can get.


pops42 - 1/24/2017 at 08:59 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418

___________________________________________________________________________ _________

You really are a f'n idiot.
Read my post. I was just noting that fast-track had been enabled. I did not and have never posted any support for TPP.

I see your public school education failed to teach you to read.
That is okay. The Democrats need as many idiots as they can get.

I resurrected the thread, your ignorance is on full display for all to see.


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 09:10 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418

___________________________________________________________________________ _________

You really are a f'n idiot.
Read my post. I was just noting that fast-track had been enabled. I did not and have never posted any support for TPP.

I see your public school education failed to teach you to read.
That is okay. The Democrats need as many idiots as they can get.

I resurrected the thread, your ignorance is on full display for all to see.

___________________________________________________________________________ __________

Where in that post did I express any support for the TPP?
Come on dumba$$, where?


pops42 - 1/24/2017 at 09:31 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418

___________________________________________________________________________ _________

You really are a f'n idiot.
Read my post. I was just noting that fast-track had been enabled. I did not and have never posted any support for TPP.

I see your public school education failed to teach you to read.
That is okay. The Democrats need as many idiots as they can get.

I resurrected the thread, your ignorance is on full display for all to see.

___________________________________________________________________________ __________

Where in that post did I express any support for the TPP?
Come on dumba$$, where?

Go read your own words, fu@k-wit.


nebish - 1/24/2017 at 09:35 PM

Hopefully you reject fast track authority to the President as well.

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by nebish]


nebish - 1/25/2017 at 02:36 AM

Something that I think is incredibly important that I haven't heard yet...I see the Whirlpool CEO attended yesterday's meeting at the White House.

We can tell these companies that if they outsource production here and lay off US workers, or if they invest in new production outside of our border to bring finished product in for sale, we can tell them if they do that they will face a border tax.

Here is the big BUT

We can't have those rules for US companies and not foreign companies. Home appliances made in South Korea have exploded in the last several years. We can't allow Samsung or LG to enjoy the lower overhead costs (even after shipping) of their country and come in here duty free when we are requiring our companies to stay put or else they get hit with a tariff. So if Whirlpool closed a plant here to build refrigerators in Mexico, Trump is saying they will get hit with a border tax. Yet if LG builds a refrigerator in Korea, they don't get hit with a border tax. That is incredibly unfair to the companies producing in the US and dramatically impacts their competitiveness in the market place. Hopefully more to come on this.

For anyone who doesn't think a tariff works...here's a good example.

quote:
This and subsequent dumping findings against Korea,
Taiwan, and Japan (most recently for 1986-87) resulted
in the imposition of duties on TVs imported from these
countries. Foreign efforts to rescind the duties have failed,
but duties have reportedly sometimes been avoided by
shipping TVs or components to the United States through
third countries.
https://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk2/1990/9007/900710.PDF



This is still in place. So did you ever wonder why all the name brand flat panel TVs are made in Mexico? Just to be close to the market they are selling in? Yeah, part of it. Sony and Panasonic and JVC and Samsung and LG have all heavily invested in TV manufacturing plants in Mexico and they did this to avoid the tariff that they would've been subjected to if they produced said TVs in Asian countries and sold them in the US.

Companies do take action and invest accordingly in the face of a tariff or duty. I bet we can get big ticket items like appliances and getting more foreign autos made here.


Swifty - 1/29/2017 at 04:00 PM

quote:
I think we need to be careful when predicting both winning and losing scenarios coming out of a renegotiated or trade with Mexico involving tariffs simply because most of which we were told leading up to the passage of NAFTA has not taken root, or in fact the opposite happened. Speaking to illegal immigration, NAFTA was seen as a way to boost the economy in Mexico and stem illegal immigration flows from their country. But the opposite happened, illegal immigration from Mexico soared.


This is from Wikipedia about the time when NAFTA was introduced.

quote:
Mexico's economy experienced a severe recession as a result of the peso's devaluation and the flight to safer investments. The country's GDP declined by 6.2% over the course of 1995. Mexico's financial sector bore the brunt of the crisis as banks collapsed, revealing low-quality assets and fraudulent lending practices. Thousands of mortgages went into default as Mexican citizens struggled to keep pace with rising interest rates, resulting in widespread repossession of houses.[13][14]

In addition to declining GDP growth, Mexico experienced hyperinflation and extreme poverty skyrocketed as real wages plummeted and unemployment nearly doubled. Prices increased by 35% in 1995. Nominal wages were sustained, but real wages fell by 25-35% over the same year. Unemployment climbed to 7.4% in 1995 from its pre-crisis level of 3.9% in 1994. In the formal sector alone, over one million people lost their jobs and average real wages decreased by 13.5% throughout 1995. Overall household incomes plummeted by 30% in the same year. Mexico's extreme poverty grew to 37% in 1996 from 21% in 1994, undoing the previous ten years of successful poverty reduction initiatives. The nation's poverty levels would not begin returning to normal until 2001.[15]:10


NAFTA gave corporate America access to cheap labor. The very minimal wages were used by many migrants to fund their way to the US. How could this have ever worked in favor of American labor? The whole premise of NAFTA was daft and it had nothing to do with the migrant outcome. What happened was totally predictable. My father-in-law was CEO of a company that had two maquiladoras in Mexico. Believe me this was about making money for corporations. There may have been some rhetoric that if we throw a few pesos at the peasants they will stay home, but this objective was not part of any policy.

What will happen as a result of Trump’s tirade is also totally predictable.

On the Central America issue

I said “Mexico has also stepped up security on its southern border and this has stopped the flow of Central Americans coming to the US.”

quote:
“Mexico has a lot of chips to play,” said Jorge Castañeda, a former foreign secretary who has staked out a combative approach.

Let Mr. Trump pull the United States out of Nafta, he argues. Instead of stopping Central American migrants at its southern border, Mexico should let them through on their way to the United States. “And let’s see if his wall keeps the terrorists out, because we won’t,” Mr. Castañeda added.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/business/economy/nafta-mexico-free-trade.html " target=_blank> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/business/economy/nafta-mexico-free-trade .html

You didn’t understand the point I was making. There is no way to stop migrants but one can stop the flow. Mexico simply tried to stop the flow by reducing the number of migrants. They monitored the trains that took Central Americans north. But through graft people do get through.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/04/mexico-torture-migrants-citiz ens-central-america

From today’s Washington Post which reiterates my point.

quote:
Outside of the economic realm, Mexico also has plenty of cards to play in negotiations with Trump. Last year, Mexico deported nearly 150,000 migrants bound for the United States, most of them from Central America. Without this cooperation, officials predict that the number of migrants turning up at the U.S. border could double.

“He has the Central American card, which he has mentioned, and it’s a very powerful card,” former foreign minister Jorge Castañeda said of Peña Nieto.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/in-fight-with-trump-mexico-has-plenty-of-ways-to-punch-back/2017/01/28/07d57d58-e4d0-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_mexico-645pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.703ed1ec6334 " target=_blank> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/in-fight-with-trump-mexic o-has-plenty-of-ways-to-punch-back/2017/01/28/07d57d58-e4d0-11e6-a419-eefe8 eff0835_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_mexico-645pm%3Ahomepage%2Fst ory&utm_term=.703ed1ec6334


pops42 - 1/29/2017 at 06:44 PM

Trump's bullsh!t is going to hurt americans, more than help them. and will probably cause a recession.


nebish - 1/29/2017 at 10:28 PM

quote:
NAFTA gave corporate America access to cheap labor. The very minimal wages were used by many migrants to fund their way to the US. How could this have ever worked in favor of American labor? The whole premise of NAFTA was daft and it had nothing to do with the migrant outcome. What happened was totally predictable. My father-in-law was CEO of a company that had two maquiladoras in Mexico. Believe me this was about making money for corporations. There may have been some rhetoric that if we throw a few pesos at the peasants they will stay home, but this objective was not part of any policy.


You won't find any disagreement from me here.

quote:
What will happen as a result of Trump’s tirade is also totally predictable.


Tell me what you are predicting then?


quote:
On the Central America issue

I said “Mexico has also stepped up security on its southern border and this has stopped the flow of Central Americans coming to the US.”

quote:“Mexico has a lot of chips to play,” said Jorge Castañeda, a former foreign secretary who has staked out a combative approach.

Let Mr. Trump pull the United States out of Nafta, he argues. Instead of stopping Central American migrants at its southern border, Mexico should let them through on their way to the United States. “And let’s see if his wall keeps the terrorists out, because we won’t,” Mr. Castañeda added.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/business/economy/nafta-mexico-free-trade .html " target=_blank> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/business/economy/nafta-mexico-free-trade .html

You didn’t understand the point I was making. There is no way to stop migrants but one can stop the flow. Mexico simply tried to stop the flow by reducing the number of migrants. They monitored the trains that took Central Americans north. But through graft people do get through.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/04/mexico-torture-migrants-citiz ens-central-america

From today’s Washington Post which reiterates my point.

quote: Outside of the economic realm, Mexico also has plenty of cards to play in negotiations with Trump. Last year, Mexico deported nearly 150,000 migrants bound for the United States, most of them from Central America. Without this cooperation, officials predict that the number of migrants turning up at the U.S. border could double.

“He has the Central American card, which he has mentioned, and it’s a very powerful card,” former foreign minister Jorge Castañeda said of Peña Nieto.


Well, the article I linked stated that through August of 2016 there were 369,411 apprehensions and more than half were non-Mexicans (plus remember that the Chicago Tribune reported only 54% of illegals are captured). So through 8 months last year 150,000+ Central Americans were apprehended. It's certainly good for both nations that Mexico has stepped up their own illegal immigration enforcement. There is also a spike in unaccompanied children and families coming with children - 33,743 such people were apprehended first 6 months of fiscal year 2014 and 2015 combined, first six months of 2016 it was 32,117!

http://dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/Daily-Signal-Quote-Article_Border Graphs.png

The numbers remain a big problem for our nation, big problem for their nation. Status quo isn't good enough. More people need apprehended, more barriers and difficulties need to confront illegals trying to come here. More people need deported once we catch them, no lenience for children or families. They adapt to what our system does or doesn't do. They come now and just say they seek asylum, they try to game the system whatever way they can.


nebish - 1/29/2017 at 10:29 PM

quote:
Trump's bullsh!t is going to hurt americans, more than help them. and will probably cause a recession.


Easy to sit in the back seat and say what won't work.

I'm on record, you know what I believe and advocate. Tell us, what would you do, what do you believe?


pops42 - 1/29/2017 at 11:14 PM

So, do you think a trade war with mexico is good?, do you think a 20% tariff on mexican goods to pay for a useless, 25 Billion dollar border wall is a good idea?.

[Edited on 1/29/2017 by pops42]


Chain - 1/30/2017 at 12:04 AM

Haven't read through all the posts so forgive me if this is a stupid question already posed and answered. Has some one pointed out yet to Trump and his supporters that a tariff on Mexican goods is actually a tax on American consumers? In other words we Americans will pay for this useless and unneeded wall should Donnie's proposed 20% tariff actually be put in place.

Has anyone mentioned this?


Bhawk - 1/30/2017 at 12:22 AM

It is quickly becoming apparent that the division in America is now far, far beyond simple political disagreements.

The visions and understanding of what America itself is couldn't be more different, with the chasm deepening by the hour.


nebish - 1/30/2017 at 12:51 AM

As if Donald Trump is the only one who has talked of a tariff this past election.

quote:
His campaign says Sanders also would impose countervailing tariffs on imports from China and Japan “until they stop dumping steel into the United States and stop manipulating their currencies.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/03/31/bernie-sa nders-pledges-rewrite-disastrous-trade-deals/82473012/



Go ahead and read some of that article if you like. Could replace the name Bernie Sanders with the name Donald Trump and the trade policy would sound much the same.

quote:
Haven't read through all the posts so forgive me if this is a stupid question already posed and answered. Has some one pointed out yet to Trump and his supporters that a tariff on Mexican goods is actually a tax on American consumers? In other words we Americans will pay for this useless and unneeded wall should Donnie's proposed 20% tariff actually be put in place.

Has anyone mentioned this?


Nobody here has mentioned it, but lots of people in tv and print media are mentioning it. And I think it is a given that any cost or tax a business pays gets passed onto the consumer...minimum wage increases, added regulatory costs...unless somebody is under the impression a business is going to accept less margin then, yes any tax, tariff or increase in overhead costs will get passed onto the consumer.

The idea is to punish the goods being produced abroad and favor the ones that are produced domestically. The revenue the government raises from the border tax or be used to fund any number of government spending programs. Help offset trade adjustment assistance education subsidies, other social program costs that unemployed workers need. It can go towards anything. US infrastructure spending projects. Indeed it could go towards a border wall, if that is what the government sees fit.

The secure fence act of 2006 is already law. If they would've built it then it would've been much cheaper.

quote:
So, do you think a trade war with mexico is good?, do you think a 20% tariff on mexican goods to pay for a useless, 25 Billion dollar border wall is a good idea?.

[Edited on 1/29/2017 by pops42]


You answered my question with two of your own. All you ever do is throw **** on the wall and criticize others. How about telling us what you believe is wrong and how you would fix it? I'm sure you have some well reasoned positions you can articulate.


Bhawk - 1/30/2017 at 01:02 AM

quote:
The revenue the government raises from the border tax or be used to fund any number of government spending programs.


This is based on the premise that the world will always need us or want to do business with us. That might not always be the case.

quote:
Help offset trade adjustment assistance education subsidies, other social program costs that unemployed workers need.


Can you show me the current GOP that would be down with this? Are they in an alternate universe?


pops42 - 1/30/2017 at 01:23 AM

quote:
As if Donald Trump is the only one who has talked of a tariff this past election.

quote:
His campaign says Sanders also would impose countervailing tariffs on imports from China and Japan “until they stop dumping steel into the United States and stop manipulating their currencies.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/03/31/bernie-sa nders-pledges-rewrite-disastrous-trade-deals/82473012/



Go ahead and read some of that article if you like. Could replace the name Bernie Sanders with the name Donald Trump and the trade policy would sound much the same.

quote:
Haven't read through all the posts so forgive me if this is a stupid question already posed and answered. Has some one pointed out yet to Trump and his supporters that a tariff on Mexican goods is actually a tax on American consumers? In other words we Americans will pay for this useless and unneeded wall should Donnie's proposed 20% tariff actually be put in place.

Has anyone mentioned this?


Nobody here has mentioned it, but lots of people in tv and print media are mentioning it. And I think it is a given that any cost or tax a business pays gets passed onto the consumer...minimum wage increases, added regulatory costs...unless somebody is under the impression a business is going to accept less margin then, yes any tax, tariff or increase in overhead costs will get passed onto the consumer.

The idea is to punish the goods being produced abroad and favor the ones that are produced domestically. The revenue the government raises from the border tax or be used to fund any number of government spending programs. Help offset trade adjustment assistance education subsidies, other social program costs that unemployed workers need. It can go towards anything. US infrastructure spending projects. Indeed it could go towards a border wall, if that is what the government sees fit.

The secure fence act of 2006 is already law. If they would've built it then it would've been much cheaper.

quote:
So, do you think a trade war with mexico is good?, do you think a 20% tariff on mexican goods to pay for a useless, 25 Billion dollar border wall is a good idea?.

[Edited on 1/29/2017 by pops42]


You answered my question with two of your own. All you ever do is throw **** on the wall and criticize others. How about telling us what you believe is wrong and how you would fix it? I'm sure you have some well reasoned positions you can articulate.
Simple, forget the f$cking wall, and forget about getting rid of nafta [its not going to happen] its just posturing from trump. he will not deliver anything worthwhile to anybody but the super-wealthy. all he seems to worry about is how few people showed up to his inauguration. hows that?


nebish - 1/30/2017 at 02:24 AM

quote:
Simple, forget the f$cking wall, and forget about getting rid of nafta [its not going to happen] its just posturing from trump. he will not deliver anything worthwhile to anybody but the super-wealthy. all he seems to worry about is how few people showed up to his inauguration. hows that?


Not the depth I was hoping for, you are entitled to your skepticism. I just do not know what you want, like if Hillary had won, what would you be hoping she did to address the trade and outsourcing problem? I assume you feel there is a problem here because you commented about TPP something to the effect "bad for most of us".

But anyway, Bhawk's post quoted below touches on some of the problems of not delivering.

quote:
quote:
quote: Help offset trade adjustment assistance education subsidies, other social program costs that unemployed workers need.




quote:
Can you show me the current GOP that would be down with this? Are they in an alternate universe?



As much as people like to paint Trump as just your regular old Republican, nothing new, same old same old - that just flatly is false when it comes to trade and favoring US labor. I mean compare his position to our least favorite Republicans from the past, Trump is in stark contrast to the GOP as we know/knew it.

So then, really I don't know who can be faithfully counted on in the Republican party to support Trump's trade agenda - early 20th century Republicans were all about tariffs and protection, but these modern day Republicans have been bought and owned by corporate and foreign interests, as too many Democrats have too.

I actually don't know how he delivers because I don't think he will get enough people in his party to support him. I had envisioned that Trump might get half of the Republicans and half of the Democrats to go along with new trade deals that put workers ahead of multinational corporations, but the more he pisses Democrats off, the less likely they will want to work with him on anything...even if it is in their interest. I don't know we are just 1 week in and Congress hasn't had a chance to conduct much business yet.

No, I can't show you the current GOP being down with it. However, say what you will about the myriad of reasons Trump won the election, this populist belief against decades of trade agreements that negatively impacted their lives and their communities and enriched foreign countries at their expense, that is a very real and tangible and provable thing. The Republicans I think have an opportunity to flip a whole segment of the voting landscape to their favor, organized labor. If Republicans can make moves closer to them, not just talking, but actually giving them something that they feel is in their interest, it is a huge political win and depending on your outlook of the nation, a win for America as well. That could be the only come to Jesus moment I think the Republicans might be having when it comes to doing trade the Trump way.

Time will tell.

As to your other point about the world needing our business? I think atleast in our lifetimes the American market and the American consumer are going to remain quite necessary for any company domestic or abroad. I guess you could say that China and India someday will be more important, and they might be. The American consumer plays a dominant role currently, let's not throw it away, let's use it to our advantage and get more of what is sold here, made here.


Sang - 1/30/2017 at 04:57 AM

Not sure where I saw this, might even had been one of the threads here. After Trump had his meeting with business leaders and the union, I saw a quote from a businessman who said something to the effect that 'we build factories for 40-50 years of life - we aren't going to move factories because one party comes into power - the policies could quickly change in 4 years. We plan for the future for our company.'

So Trump can say what he want and may have some influence, but I don't see a big rush of factories coming back... just a lot of added costs to consumers.....


OriginalGoober - 1/30/2017 at 02:13 PM

These are difficult issues that cant be reversed overnight but the negativity and pushback from Trump opponents to plans to shift things is nuts. I dont see why Americans should accept a porous border and a net outflow of jobs. Its a race to the bottom and we have to make changs that will benefit the American worker. If it means i have to pay 20% more for guac and tequila, so be it.


LeglizHemp - 1/30/2017 at 04:20 PM

quote:
If it means i have to pay 20% more for guac and tequila, so be it.


but not health care.......lol


Sang - 1/30/2017 at 05:33 PM

quote:
These are difficult issues that cant be reversed overnight but the negativity and pushback from Trump opponents to plans to shift things is nuts. I dont see why Americans should accept a porous border and a net outflow of jobs. Its a race to the bottom and we have to make changs that will benefit the American worker. If it means i have to pay 20% more for guac and tequila, so be it.



It's not a porous border - but believe what you want - I'm sure that $20 billion dollar wall will solve all our problems..... you probably have to worry more about Asians taking your job than Hispanics.... funny that the mayor of Berlin is telling Trump not to build the wall.....


Sang - 1/30/2017 at 10:40 PM

A couple of articles from the Chicago Tribune from the last few days:

The folly of Trump's 'buy American and hire American'

Now that the campaign is over, Donald Trump is no longer willing to fake it. Last year, he insisted, "I love free trade. But I want to make great deals." In his inaugural address, he dropped the masquerade.

"We must protect our borders from the ravages of other countries making our products, stealing our companies and destroying our jobs," he said. "Protection will lead to great prosperity and strength." His formula is simple: "Buy American and hire American." In his vision of the future, we may export but we will never import.

Trump is never more certain than when he is completely clueless. The truth is that protection against foreign trade leads away from prosperity and strength. A country that deprives itself of foreign goods is doing to itself what an enemy might try to do in wartime — cut it off from outside commerce. It is volunteering to impoverish itself.

Countries don't "ravage" us when they make "our" products; they help us. At the risk of belaboring the obvious, the essence of trade — foreign or domestic — is that it makes both buyer and seller better off. Otherwise, they wouldn't bother.

But preventing such mutually agreeable transactions is Trump's dream. Already he has announced he will renegotiate NAFTA and has walked away from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a 12-nation deal that President Barack Obama signed but Congress had yet to approve.

Trump may promise "great deals," but he is likely to get — and would probably be content with — no deals. What foreign government will rush to sign an agreement stipulating that our companies will only "buy American and hire American"?

His belief that international commerce is bad for Americans and protection is good for us is not a theory but an ancient superstition. One of the most irrefutable insights of economics is that if a country can buy something abroad for less than the cost of making it at home, it's better off buying it. That transaction allows citizens to consume more for each dollar spent. It makes them richer.

The United States could grow all its fresh fruits and vegetables rather than buy some from Mexico — just as Mexico could grow all the corn and soybeans it needs rather than purchase from us. But the costs would be higher on either side. Open trade allows people in each country to eat more and better.

It also allows each economy to produce more. Trump fantasizes that American companies and workers would be better off without foreign competition. But the steel that goes into American cars and the lumber that goes into American houses would be more expensive if it all had to be produced within our borders. In industries deprived of imported supplies, prices would rise, sales would decline and employment would shrink.

The U.S. auto industry has plants in Mexico that make cars sold in the U.S., to the horror of the new president. But if he guts NAFTA, those jobs won't all move here.

A study by the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich., said that American firms that ship car parts to Mexico could lose out to suppliers in other countries. Overall, scrapping the accord and setting high tariffs would destroy 31,000 jobs in the U.S. automotive sector.

Trump defends his protectionism by asserting that "every decision on trade" should "be made to benefit American workers and American families." But free trade does exactly that. It's the classic example of a policy that benefits the many while harming the few.

Only about 14,000 Americans are employed making footwear. About 324 million Americans, on the other hand, wear shoes. Putting up barriers to foreign-made shoes would injure far more American workers and families than it would help.

It would also be a drain on the economy. When President Obama slapped heavy tariffs on Chinese tires, the Peterson Institute for International Economics found, he saved no more than 1,200 jobs — at an annual cost to consumers of $900,000 per job.

Spending nearly a million dollars to save a job that typically pays $41,000 a year is not a recipe for prosperity. It's the equivalent of selling $20 bills for a dollar apiece. Trump's dream of "buy American and hire American" would work exactly the same way.

Trump, of course, is a business magnate whose companies have sold products made everywhere from China to Honduras. In this case, wisdom lies in following his example, not his advice.

Steve Chapman, a member of the Tribune Editorial Board, blogs at www.chicagotribune.com/chapman

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-trump-clueless-trade- jobs-trade-nafta-perspec-0126-20170125-column.html


Sang - 1/30/2017 at 10:42 PM

Daniel W. Drezner
Special to The Washington Post

Trump administration needs to get up to speed on the auto industry

On Tuesday, President Donald Trump met with the chief executives of Detroit's Big Three auto manufacturers. You can vaguely sense what he was looking for from them when he tweeted:

“Will be meeting at 9:00 with top automobile executives concerning jobs in America. I want new plants to be built here for cars sold here!”

The CEOs of the auto firms said nice things about Trump afterward. But buried in the Detroit Free Press’ write-up of the meeting were these interesting paragraphs:

“In recent months, automakers have announced plans to invest billions of new dollars in the U.S. and create thousands of new jobs — developments for which Trump has, at least in part, taken credit.

“However, in nearly every case those investments were either in the planning stages for months or were made possible by changing market conditions, though (Ford CEO Mark) Fields has said that a belief that Trump will improve the business climate in the U.S. has also played a role in Ford’s decisions.”

Apparently, it's even more complicated than that. Bloomberg News reports that given where the United States is in the current business cycle, the last thing auto manufacturers want to do is go on a huge domestic investment splurge:

“New assembly plants cost General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. or Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV about $1 billion — the sort of investment companies look to avoid making as a market peaks. And while factories boost jobs, economic gains from building them are being undercut by automation and pressure to compete with lower-wage countries including Mexico.

“ ‘This is the nightmare scenario for auto companies, which are being asked to make huge capital investments right before a slowdown in sales,’ said Dan Luria, an analyst who has advised the United Auto Workers union. ‘It seems like hardly the time to spend billions on new plants.’ …

“After the U.S. auto market's 68 percent surge since 2009, sales will be roughly flat through 2020, researcher LMC Automotive said in a report last week. After setting a record with nearly 17.6 million vehicles last year, the industry will keep coming up short of that level through the end of the decade, LMC said.”

Then there's the awkward issue of what the Big Three will do if Trump really does try to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement with higher trade barriers against Mexico. Mexico is an attractive manufacturing hub in part because of lower wages but also because of its plethora of free-trade agreements with other countries. Unless and until Trump's trade negotiators can get duty-free access to the same number of countries that Mexico can, it's not terribly logical for auto manufacturers to relocate their plants to the United States.

Trump’s economic vision seems to be that any car bought in the United States should be made in the United States. But as a previous Detroit Free Press story noted, it's just not economically feasible to produce, say, the Chevrolet Cruze in the United States:

“There probably wouldn't be a Cruze hatchback if GM had to build it in the United States. The Cruze hatch is the poster child for why interconnected global manufacturing footprints make automakers stronger. Chevy sold about 184,300 Cruze sedans in America last year — all built in Lordstown, Ohio. It brought 4,500 hatchbacks in from Mexico. GM wouldn't have invested millions of dollars for that few vehicles at its plant in Lordstown, Ohio, but it makes sense to build them in Mexico, where that body style is popular and they sell well. Without Mexican production, the 4,500 Americans who bought Cruze hatchbacks might be lost to other car brands.”

I bring all of this up because it illustrates the abject lack of knowledge that Trump and his trade/economic advisers seem to display when it comes to the automobile sector. And this is during an economic upswing.

Imagine what happens if the economy starts to run out of steam.

Washington Post

Daniel W. Drezner is a professor of international politics at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

Copyright © 2017, Chicago Tribune

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-trump-auto-industr y-detroit-20170129-story.html


Of course, both of these are opinion pieces/commentary


LeglizHemp - 1/30/2017 at 10:55 PM

i posted this once before.......

Mercantilism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Mercantilism.html


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 05:41 AM

quote:
Not sure where I saw this, might even had been one of the threads here. After Trump had his meeting with business leaders and the union, I saw a quote from a businessman who said something to the effect that 'we build factories for 40-50 years of life - we aren't going to move factories because one party comes into power - the policies could quickly change in 4 years. We plan for the future for our company.'

So Trump can say what he want and may have some influence, but I don't see a big rush of factories coming back... just a lot of added costs to consumers.....


Lots of things go into it. Trade law in this country has been steady, the only changes have been up to this point, more trade deals with more nations giving US companies freedom to easily move and operate where they wish.

Nobody pitched NAFTA as a means for a company like SquareD (make electrical breakers/fuses, switches, etc) to close manufacturing plants here, build a plant in Mexico and then sell the exact same stuff at US stores that was once made in USA, but now comes from Mexico. Maybe this was the corporate dream all along, but that is not what we were told would happen.

And the thing is, you don't always save money with a foreign made good. When you keep up with this stuff and look at all the labels where it is made, you see the old stock, you see the new stock and you see the price is the same...somebody isn't passing that savings along.

I have lots of examples for lots of things on this issue.

eLittle over a year ago I was buying some Peerless mounts to put a TV on the wall because they were made in USA (only one of two companies I found that made them here). I was buying them from a local small TV shop. Some months later I needed another, so I called George up and said I need another and he tells me "no problem, the price went up, but I will give you the old price", I go to pick it up and it is in a new shiny cardboard box, kind of a give away on country, packaging can tip me off alot. The old ones were just plain brown cardboard box with a logo and a USA flag and made in statement. The new one, yup, made in China. Price wasn't any lower. Maybe old George was making more money on it, he says he wasn't. Maybe the distributor was making more money, maybe Peerless themselves was making more money. One things is for certain, the savings did not get passed on to the consumer. And this is not isolated case. I see it alot when a brand outsources, they don't pass the savings on to the consumer.

Just start paying attention to things. I walk around the store with my wife and all I do is look at labels and what they have on their shelf. Hardware stores where ever. Need some drill bits? How about Made in USA and made in China drill bits the same price? Yeah, right next to each other 3/8 drill bit made in USA same price as a 7/16 drill bit made in China, old stock vs new stock. They changed suppliers or sources, but the prices stayed the same.

Some times it will cost more, other times it won't. Like I said before, nothing is true across the board. And in my jeans example, a US producer of a good that can now compete on a level playing field can increase sales, expand distribution, buy materials cheaper, maybe lower their price. Are we talking in circles on this stuff or do you not read things I reply to you. I know sometimes we talk past eachother here, both trying to make our points by glossing over someone else's. I think it was in the Liberal/Russia thread from a week or two ago I took up the higher prices thing.

So anyway...

big rush of companies coming back? I'm not sure, maybe. Certainly not at once, true. What I'd hope is we can change new investments in manufacturing plants from there (any foreign country) to here (USA any state, take your pick no matter to me). It won't be all at once and surely they are waiting to see what policy might change, see if their is a penalty or reward for doing so. But they will make their investments where it is wise for them to make it and if we can convince them that they are better off here (by carrot or stick) it certainly could have an effect.

How about the Stanley CEO recently:

quote:
"It’s going to be advisable to have more manufacturing in the U.S,"
http://fortune.com/2017/01/05/stanley-black-decker-trump/



I don't know exactly why the Stanley CEO would feel this way, but whatever the reason I like the sentiment. I want more foreign and US companies to feel that way, and if they think it is in their financial interest to invest here and make more things here that is ultimately a good thing for our country.

quote:
quote:
If it means i have to pay 20% more for guac and tequila, so be it.



quote:

but not health care.......lol



Well, the difference is one can avoid Mexican produced goods if they choose, there is little I can think of that Mexico has a monopoly on. China? That would be harder, but Mexico...if you didn't want to subject yourself to potentially higher priced goods because of the tariff, then you could find substitutes for alot of things made in Mexico that you could buy from another country to not subject yourself to that produce with a tariff on it.

Thing with this compared to healthcare, and I get the playful jab, but here, the consumer can choose to buy products from one country or another, pay more or pay less, whatever you know. But with healthcare, the options are limited (or even singular depending where you live) and you have to buy it...and when it keeps going up and you get less in return for it, easier to have a negative attitude towards that compared to say buying a widget from Mexico, or not buying it, or finding it made somewhere else.

And assuming a duty or tariff gets passed onto the consumer, as it likely would, it is the exact same thing as mandated minimum wage increases, but that cost impact has a much broader effect across the entire economy, and not just for minimum wage workers because some higher wage workers often have their wage as some step up from the minimum wage, so then it has an effect of creating raises across much of the workforce - which if it leads employers to shrink their workforce due to higher wage requirement, then that is ultimately a bad thing.

It all gets passed on one way or the other. But people subscribing to a certain side of the political philosophy seem to push the living wage thing without a hint of what impact is has on good and service prices, but talk of a tariff getting passed on, why.... it leads to a recession!

I'll check out the news articles tomorrow. Super tired right now.


Sang - 1/31/2017 at 06:35 AM

quote:

Some times it will cost more, other times it won't. Like I said before, nothing is true across the board. And in my jeans example, a US producer of a good that can now compete on a level playing field can increase sales, expand distribution, buy materials cheaper, maybe lower their price. Are we talking in circles on this stuff or do you not read things I reply to you. I know sometimes we talk past each other here, both trying to make our points by glossing over someone else's. I think it was in the Liberal/Russia thread from a week or two ago I took up the higher prices thing.
.



Not sure if the comment about not reading things and talking past someone was directed at me, I just saw 2 articles in my paper that were about the topic you wanted to discuss and I posted them without comment, other than they were opinions/commentary. I didn't say I believed everything in them, just thought I would post some other viewpoints that are out there about this topic.


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 02:11 PM

quote:

Some times it will cost more, other times it won't. Like I said before, nothing is true across the board. And in my jeans example, a US producer of a good that can now compete on a level playing field can increase sales, expand distribution, buy materials cheaper, maybe lower their price. Are we talking in circles on this stuff or do you not read things I reply to you. I know sometimes we talk past each other here, both trying to make our points by glossing over someone else's. I think it was in the Liberal/Russia thread from a week or two ago I took up the higher prices thing.

.


quote:


Not sure if the comment about not reading things and talking past someone was directed at me, I just saw 2 articles in my paper that were about the topic you wanted to discuss and I posted them without comment, other than they were opinions/commentary. I didn't say I believed everything in them, just thought I would post some other viewpoints that are out there about this topic.


Hi Sang. The second part of that was just kind of a general glossing over people seem to do on other's post, myself included sometime.

The first part was addressing you saying that you thought it would just add more cost to consumers, which is a concern you raised previously as well, which I tried to counter. Now, just because I say something may or may not happen isn't reason enough for you to change your mind - I mean who am I just somebody on an internet forum. But if I didn't make my point well or clear enough I am always willing to take another crack at it.

I don't always have to be right and the other side doesn't always have to be wrong. I come here because I enjoy it and hopefully we can all raise a point from time to time that others gain a bit of a different perspective from.


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 02:24 PM

quote:
i posted this once before.......

Mercantilism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Mercantilism.html


An irony I find is that Asian countries like Korea, Japan and to some degree China all engage or have engaged in mercantilistic policies to build up their nations, build up their industry - much to their benefit, all while eroding our industrial base as we embraced free trade without barriers coming into our country (with rare exception for dumping).

I do want a strong "state". I want a strong and financially healthy United States of America, which I see our population and communities as a whole benefiting from. My views on trade are a means to that end.


Sang - 1/31/2017 at 08:10 PM

quote:
quote:

Some times it will cost more, other times it won't. Like I said before, nothing is true across the board. And in my jeans example, a US producer of a good that can now compete on a level playing field can increase sales, expand distribution, buy materials cheaper, maybe lower their price. Are we talking in circles on this stuff or do you not read things I reply to you. I know sometimes we talk past each other here, both trying to make our points by glossing over someone else's. I think it was in the Liberal/Russia thread from a week or two ago I took up the higher prices thing.

.


quote:


Not sure if the comment about not reading things and talking past someone was directed at me, I just saw 2 articles in my paper that were about the topic you wanted to discuss and I posted them without comment, other than they were opinions/commentary. I didn't say I believed everything in them, just thought I would post some other viewpoints that are out there about this topic.


Hi Sang. The second part of that was just kind of a general glossing over people seem to do on other's post, myself included sometime.

The first part was addressing you saying that you thought it would just add more cost to consumers, which is a concern you raised previously as well, which I tried to counter. Now, just because I say something may or may not happen isn't reason enough for you to change your mind - I mean who am I just somebody on an internet forum. But if I didn't make my point well or clear enough I am always willing to take another crack at it.

I don't always have to be right and the other side doesn't always have to be wrong. I come here because I enjoy it and hopefully we can all raise a point from time to time that others gain a bit of a different perspective from.



My point was that if tariffs are enforced, somebody will pay for it - and according to what you said above about companies 'not passing along the savings', I don't see anybody but the consumer paying for it.

I will try to talk to one of my neighbors - a big Obama hater and Trump lover - who owns a plant in Mexico for the product his company produces. I'll get his take on what he thinks of the tariffs and what he would do.....


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 08:42 PM

quote:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-trump-clueless- trade- jobs-trade-nafta-perspec-0126-20170125-column.html


For those singing the virtues of free trade, they better not be the ones up in arms about the wage gap between blue collar and white collar workers. And they better not be the ones with all those percentages thrown around comparing CEO pay to average worker pay. When and why did this great divide in wages begin? You can thank outsourcing work to foreign countries...companies being able to produce cheaper, pay workers less, make more profit and where does the profit go - alot of places, but one place it goes is to the high (or disproportionate) management salaries? Other people can make this case better than I can, but opening cheap labor markets for US corporations to exploit is a driving factor of this...absent from the story there. Looking at past articles written by Mr Chapman...has he ever said anything positive about Trump or about his proposals?



quote:
Daniel W. Drezner
Special to The Washington Post

Trump administration needs to get up to speed on the auto industry


quote:
Trump’s economic vision seems to be that any car bought in the United States should be made in the United States. But as a previous Detroit Free Press story noted, it's just not economically feasible to produce, say, the Chevrolet Cruze in the United States:

“There probably wouldn't be a Cruze hatchback if GM had to build it in the United States. The Cruze hatch is the poster child for why interconnected global manufacturing footprints make automakers stronger. Chevy sold about 184,300 Cruze sedans in America last year — all built in Lordstown, Ohio. It brought 4,500 hatchbacks in from Mexico. GM wouldn't have invested millions of dollars for that few vehicles at its plant in Lordstown, Ohio, but it makes sense to build them in Mexico, where that body style is popular and they sell well. Without Mexican production, the 4,500 Americans who bought Cruze hatchbacks might be lost to other car brands.”

I bring all of this up because it illustrates the abject lack of knowledge that Trump and his trade/economic advisers seem to display when it comes to the automobile sector. And this is during an economic upswing.


That part in bold and underlined there, that is wrong, Trump was right in his tweets, it is all illustrated below. GM had to come out and correct themselves. Trust me there are Mexican built Chevy Cruze sedans on dealer lots. Lordstown just down the road a bit from me, you can imagine the controversy.

AND the 4500 Cruze hatchbacks sold in 2016 is misleading, so is the statement that if they had to be made in Lordstown the model may not have ever been produced.

Because the hatchback model just began shipping in 4th qrt 2016, a very late arriving model for sale. Let's see what sales are over an entire fiscal or calendar year. Ford Focus and Mazda 3 hatchbacks sell 100,000 models a year combined per year, so there is sales potential there for this new Cruze model. Using early sales from initial shipments at the end of the year and using it to say that not enough sales exist to make the car in the US is at best misleading and at worst a agenda based lie. Maybe the Trib needs to get more up to speed on the auto industry?

quote:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/19/news/economy/donald-trump-chevy-cruze -mexico/

Trump was right about Mexican-made GM cars
by Heather Long @byHeatherLong January 19, 2017: 10:03 AM ET
Can Trump take credit for new jobs?
Donald Trump doesn't like things made in Mexico.

On January 3, he slammed GM, one of America's big three automakers, for manufacturing cars in Mexico to sell across the border in the U.S. He focused his firepower on the Chevy Cruze, one of GM's signature small cars.

"General Motors is sending Mexican made model of Chevy Cruze to U.S. car dealers-tax free across border. Make in U.S.A. or pay big border tax!" Trump tweeted at the time.

A huge debate ensued: Did Trump have his facts right? GM (GM) was quick to say no. The company issued a statement claiming it makes all Cruze sedans sold in the U.S. at a big factory in Lordstown, Ohio. (Read the full statement at the end of this article).

But it turns out, what Trump tweeted was true.

Right now in the United States, there are Chevy Cruze sedans for sale at GM dealerships that were made in Mexico.

In fact, CNNMoney even found a Mexican-made Cruze sedan for sale at a GM dealership in Lordstown, Ohio.

No wonder workers at the GM Assembly Plant in Lordstown are livid. The plant is facing 1,200 layoffs this Friday, the day of Trump's inauguration.

GM told the workers there were too many Cruze sedans on car lots. They weren't selling, so GM had to cut some of the 4,500 workers at the Lordstown plant.

"It's the ultimate insult: Chevy Cruzes with Mexican VIN numbers shipped to Lordstown," says Heather Lexso, a worker at the GM plant in Lordstown. She is losing her job putting carpets in the trunk as GM eliminates the entire third shift.

Related: 2,000 GM workers to lose jobs on Trump Inauguration Day

Mexican-made Cruzes are for sale, even in Lordstown

Lexso is referring to the ID number every car gets when it's build. It's known as the Vehicle Identification Number, or VIN. Car analyst and blogger E.W. Niedermeyer was the first to point out GM wasn't being totally honest. He explained that any Chevy Cruze made in Ohio has a number that begins with a "1," which is the VIN country code for the U.S. Any Chevy Cruze made in Mexico has a number that begins with "3," the VIN country code for Mexico.

Using that information, Niedermeyer found numerous examples of Chevy Cruze sedans for sale online that were made in Mexico. His discovery caught the attention of Car and Driver magazine, which confirmed there was a 2017 Chevy Cruze sedan for sale in Portland, Oregon that was clearly made in Mexico, not Ohio.

Over the weekend, CNNMoney traveled to Lordstown and stopped by the main GM dealership there known as Spitzer Chevrolet Lordstown. It's located about 5 miles from the factory where Cruze sedans are made and workers are losing jobs.

Spitzer had about 30 Cruze sedans for sale on its main lot. Sure enough, CNNMoney found that one had a Mexican VIN number. The sale tag on the window of the car even says "Final Assembly Point: Ramos Arizpe, Mexico."

Related: GM, Chrysler have more workers in Mexico than Ford
chevy cruze mexico 2
The tag on the window of a 2017 Chevy Cruze sedan for sale at the Spitzer Chevrolet dealedership in Lordstown, Ohio.

GM confirms Mexican-made Cruze sedans

This week, GM admitted to CNNMoney that at least 8,400 Chevy Cruze sedans were built in Mexico at the end of last year and brought to the U.S. for sale. It's a small fraction of the 188,876 Cruzes the company says it sold in the U.S. last year, but the Mexican imports did happen.

"A small number of Mexico-made Chevrolet Cruze sedans were produced in 2016 for sale in the U.S. This supplemental production ended in December. Lordstown is now the sole source for the Cruze sedans," said GM spokesman Tom Wickham.

The frustration in Lordstown is palpable. Everyone is talking about Trump's tweet and how it's true that Mexican-made Cruzes are being sold there. They hope Trump will save their 1,200 jobs.

"How messed up is it that someone in Lordstown could be driving a Mexican-made Cruze?" says Robert Sheridan, another GM worker about to lose his job.

What GM sent CNNMoney on January 3:

"General Motors manufactures the Chevrolet Cruze sedan in Lordstown, Ohio. All Chevrolet Cruze sedans sold in the U.S. are built in GM's assembly plant in Lordstown, Ohio. GM builds the Chevrolet Cruze hatchback for global markets in Mexico, with a small number sold in the U.S."

What GM sent CNNMoney on January 17:

"A small number of Mexico-made Chevrolet Cruze sedans were produced in 2016 for sale in the U.S. This supplemental production ended in December. Lordstown is now the sole source for the Cruze sedans."



Finally, on the auto issue, we need only look at the explosion of growth Korean built autos have had in our market. Sure Kia and Hyundai throw us a bone and build a couple of their models here, while importing 3/4 of what they sell here. Good for Koreans, bad for US workers.

I'll be visiting the Cleveland autoshow end of this month. My favorite thing to do is look at MSRP and country of origin data on window stickers. Tells you alot about what is going on in the auto industry, where things come from. Last year I saw a large number of Korean tires on US branded cars and trucks. First time I had saw such a thing. You know normally you'd have Goodyear, Firestone, Cooper, Michelin, the normal household type names, some of those are US companies, some of those are made in USA, some are not. But everyone has to watch out now, here come the Korean tires ready to race the big boys to the bottom. Wonder if we'll be seeing more job losses at US tire plants as a result?


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 09:05 PM

Here is an excerpt from a story relating to Ford halting the 1.6 billion facility in Mexico:

quote:
The loss to the economy, Eaves calculates, could run into the hundreds of millions of dollars, and maybe even into the billions, over the next five years, as manufacturing, contracting and indirect jobs all fall short of plans. Officials say they are still analyzing the economic impact of the Ford decision.


Hmm, sure would be nice to have hundreds of millions of dollars or maybe into the billions over the next five years as manufacturing, contracting and indirect jobs here in the US wouldn't it?

That is what they are saying the loss of that plant cost Mexico, and all of that shot in the arm of the surrounding economy, but it certainly illustrates the overall impact the auto industry has when they decide where they want to build their next plant.

The US didn't gain a new plant in this Ford decision, but did get some investment to expand an existing facility and 700 created jobs. I'll take that as a good trade off for us.

In that article it also states:

quote:
Ford's chief executive Mark Fields said market forces had swayed Ford's decision to not build the San Luis Potosi plant, with low gas prices and low interest rates hampering small car sales.

Fields also noted President-elect Donald Trump's promises to make the US more competitive by lowering taxes and easing regulations.

"We believe these tax and regulatory reforms are necessary to boost US competitiveness," Fields said
, speaking in Flat Rock, Michigan, where the assembly plant is located.

During his presidential campaign, Trump said that if elected, he would not allow Ford to open its plant in Mexico and threatened to add tariffs to any vehicles Ford imported from the US' southern neighbor.

http://www.dw.com/en/ford-to-scrap-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-as-trump-targ ets-general-motors/a-36993603


Should Trump take credit for that? He can't take credit for "market forces", but he certainly could take credit for painting a picture of a more competitive industry with less tax and regulations - then the whole tariff boarder tax thing is just there in the corner, play a role? Really it may not matter in light of the tax and regulatory changes Ford CEO is hoping for, which Trump has stated.


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 09:09 PM

quote:
My point was that if tariffs are enforced, somebody will pay for it - and according to what you said above about companies 'not passing along the savings', I don't see anybody but the consumer paying for it.


Or it might cost Mexico really...cost them jobs. If consumers buy products from other countries instead, or if ultimately companies look to locate somewhere else to evade the tariff. There is a financial cost with the tax being applied to the product and passed along and then there are other costs that the country of Mexico could bear.

quote:
I will try to talk to one of my neighbors - a big Obama hater and Trump lover - who owns a plant in Mexico for the product his company produces. I'll get his take on what he thinks of the tariffs and what he would do.....


Great, I look forward to it. If he is anti-Trump on this issue, spin it around like you are pro-Trump on it, that sounds like it would be a hoot of a conversation!


Sang - 1/31/2017 at 09:27 PM

"During his presidential campaign, Trump said that if elected, he would not allow Ford to open its plant in Mexico and threatened to add tariffs to any vehicles Ford imported from the US' southern neighbor."

So this is where some of the wheels fall off for me.... he would not allow a company to open a plant in Mexico? How? Why?

Republicans and conservatives usually go nuts about the government (or president) 'picking winners and losers' and hampering market forces. How is this different?


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 09:40 PM

quote:
"During his presidential campaign, Trump said that if elected, he would not allow Ford to open its plant in Mexico and threatened to add tariffs to any vehicles Ford imported from the US' southern neighbor."

So this is where some of the wheels fall off for me.... he would not allow a company to open a plant in Mexico? How? Why?

Republicans and conservatives usually go nuts about the government (or president) 'picking winners and losers' and hampering market forces. How is this different?


It's Trump...everything is different...LOL.

He isn't subscribing to any kind of ideological view on trade, that much is clear. If the bought and paid for suits in Washington who do listen to their lobbyists and corporate puppet masters follow Trump time will tell.

Everything is different.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 02:11 AM

I took some photos at Target today until my wife told me to stop I was embarrassing her.

Made in USA bandages cheaper than made in Brazil band-aids






Made in USA bags cheaper than made in Canada (beware of Zip Lock bags made in Thailand which I have increasingly seen).





pops42 - 2/13/2017 at 04:21 PM

quote:
quote:
"During his presidential campaign, Trump said that if elected, he would not allow Ford to open its plant in Mexico and threatened to add tariffs to any vehicles Ford imported from the US' southern neighbor."

So this is where some of the wheels fall off for me.... he would not allow a company to open a plant in Mexico? How? Why?

Republicans and conservatives usually go nuts about the government (or president) 'picking winners and losers' and hampering market forces. How is this different?


It's Trump...everything is different...LOL.

He isn't subscribing to any kind of ideological view on trade, that much is clear. If the bought and paid for suits in Washington who do listen to their lobbyists and corporate puppet masters follow Trump time will tell.

Everything is different.
will trump stop walmart from buying all their goods from china???.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 04:36 PM

quote:
will trump stop walmart from buying all their goods from china???.


...or Home Depot, or Best Buy, or your local hardware store, or any store...

There is no pure store, big box or otherwise when it comes to products from China or anywhere.

The Walmart example...if I have time I would like to post the number of made in USA products that can be found at Walmart. I would bet anyone that I could easily find dozens upon dozens, perhaps even hundreds (when adding all up all individual skus) of made in USA products at Walmart. I guarantee it, wanna bet? Trust me, I look at origin labels like it is my job. You go do it. Go to your Walmart. You would be surprised how much you can buy at Walmart that is made in USA.


pops42 - 2/13/2017 at 04:59 PM

quote:
quote:
will trump stop walmart from buying all their goods from china???.


...or Home Depot, or Best Buy, or your local hardware store, or any store...

There is no pure store, big box or otherwise when it comes to products from China or anywhere.

The Walmart example...if I have time I would like to post the number of made in USA products that can be found at Walmart. I would bet anyone that I could easily find dozens upon dozens, perhaps even hundreds (when adding all up all individual skus) of made in USA products at Walmart. I guarantee it, wanna bet? Trust me, I look at origin labels like it is my job. You go do it. Go to your Walmart. You would be surprised how much you can buy at Walmart that is made in USA.
If trump insisted they sell "Made in USA" only, they would ALL close their doors.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 07:15 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
will trump stop walmart from buying all their goods from china???.


...or Home Depot, or Best Buy, or your local hardware store, or any store...

There is no pure store, big box or otherwise when it comes to products from China or anywhere.

The Walmart example...if I have time I would like to post the number of made in USA products that can be found at Walmart. I would bet anyone that I could easily find dozens upon dozens, perhaps even hundreds (when adding all up all individual skus) of made in USA products at Walmart. I guarantee it, wanna bet? Trust me, I look at origin labels like it is my job. You go do it. Go to your Walmart. You would be surprised how much you can buy at Walmart that is made in USA.


If trump insisted they sell "Made in USA" only, they would ALL close their doors.


That just isn't realistic. Who has ever said that Walmart or any retailer must only sell made in USA exclusively? Nobody has. That is not a position that Donald Trump has insisted or even hinted upon. Why are we going down that path? What I think we can do as consumers and what our country should do in policy is incentivize more goods and services being made and originating here, locating production and job centers here and favor the products made in our own communities with our own workers instead of those made abroad. I have been consistent on that since I began posting in these forums many years ago.

What I did in reply to your initial post this morning is to dispel this myth that everything at Walmart is made in China, or somehow Walmart is worse in this respect compared to other box store retailers. My point was that you could do quite well buying a large variety household and garage items at Walmart, not to mention the grocery aspect or the cosmetic/personal hygiene departments of their stores that are chock full of USA items.

Back to your question, currently the availability and capacity to fill an entire big box retail store with exclusively made in USA product does not exist.

That is not to mean that the product in question may not exist elsewhere, just that for a variety of reasons, if such product does exist is often isn't found in your neighborhood box store. Still, it is true you can find alot of USA product in these box stores, and it is true that you may not even realize the product you are buying is imported while passing up a US produced item next to it on the shelf. And sometimes that USA item is cheaper than the import. And it is also true that if you can't find a specific item in your local store that is made in the USA, chances are with some time and effort you can find and buy that product online or elsewhere. But it is also true that some items just are not made or assembled here and then it adds to the impossibility of having a retailer exclusively rely upon domestically made items for their shelves.

I'm surprised that this concept gets such pushback from people falling closer to the left side of the political spectrum. I guess Trump is making those more liberal minded people free market capitalist in favor of outsourcing all of a sudden? Before it was the Republicans and free trade, free market conservatives, you know the business interests, who oppose efforts and fought policy and initiatives for more USA made policy. Now the other side wants to attack the buy American sentiment? Confused. Doesn't matter to me who the President is, if my views align with their views that is something I support. I guess if Trump is for it, everyone else has to be against it now. But he has never said and I can't imagine him ever saying that Walmart must only sell USA made stuff.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 07:32 PM

I just am right now buying a lot of made in USA new old stock radiator caps for $10 each off of ebay because I can't find them in the USA anymore. Stant, Delco, Napa, and other brands started making them in Mexico and elsewhere a handful of years ago. You can still buy Stant and other branded thermostats that are US, but not radiator caps in the US.

So even if it isn't available in a store, or isn't produced any more I go to great lengths to source a USA made item before I consider settling for what else may be out there in terms of an import.

I've said before it is like a religion and for my friends, family and people that know me, it is important I walk the walk because I can't expect anyone else to care if the person who preaches USA to them doesn't back it up when nobody is looking.


pops42 - 2/13/2017 at 07:43 PM

quote:
I just am right now buying a lot of made in USA new old stock radiator caps for $10 each off of ebay because I can't find them in the USA anymore. Stant, Delco, Napa, and other brands started making them in Mexico and elsewhere a handful of years ago. You can still buy Stant and other branded thermostats that are US, but not radiator caps in the US.

So even if it isn't available in a store, or isn't produced any more I go to great lengths to source a USA made item before I consider settling for what else may be out there in terms of an import.

I've said before it is like a religion and for my friends, family and people that know me, it is important I walk the walk because I can't expect anyone else to care if the person who preaches USA to them doesn't back it up when nobody is looking.
Im with you on this I am all for buying american. the recent trend of companies going back to "made in USA" has nothing to do with any political party, they decided in the past few years, its better and more cost effective to make it here. CEO's make over 400x the average worker, because of union busting, and outsourcing starting around the time reagan was elected.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 07:55 PM

quote:
quote:
I just am right now buying a lot of made in USA new old stock radiator caps for $10 each off of ebay because I can't find them in the USA anymore. Stant, Delco, Napa, and other brands started making them in Mexico and elsewhere a handful of years ago. You can still buy Stant and other branded thermostats that are US, but not radiator caps in the US.

So even if it isn't available in a store, or isn't produced any more I go to great lengths to source a USA made item before I consider settling for what else may be out there in terms of an import.

I've said before it is like a religion and for my friends, family and people that know me, it is important I walk the walk because I can't expect anyone else to care if the person who preaches USA to them doesn't back it up when nobody is looking.


Im with you on this I am all for buying american. the recent trend of companies going back to "made in USA" has nothing to do with any political party, they decided in the past few years, its better and more cost effective to make it here. CEO's make over 400x the average worker, because of union busting, and outsourcing starting around the time reagan was elected.




Pops my friend, I just knew that we had agreement on the root issue.

There may be some aspect of the "political sentiment" or the vague comments by Trump that has led to some thinking about "reshoring" or where their investment dollars will go. But otherwise I agree, businesses do things for reasons of cost and efficiency and location. Back in 2008 when oil/diesel/gas there was a big problem for people relying on overseas shipping that had now skyrocketed due to high fuel costs. And then we have the labor costs that have risen in some areas. When it comes to "better and more cost effective", it is good PR for them to do it if they can market it right, but then there are also the tax and regulatory aspects, which we needed not get into at the moment to kill the buzz...

We could debate the merits of unionized workforce some other time or some other place. But I would say that I want what all labor union workers want. They want good pay, good working conditions, good benefits, job security and future opportunity - that is what I want for US workers as well and I see creating more demand for labor as the means to achieve it (not mandated upon employers who would then consider just outsourcing production as a result). And I know we agree on the outsourcing aspect and the impact it has had on the average or median worker pay compared to CEO pay.

Let's not even mention the name of the POTUS, we are on the same page, Buy American!


nebish - 2/15/2017 at 06:37 PM

When it comes to toys, just about all toys kids like and want are the cheapo crap you see in the toy aisle which is almost always made in China.

We have found that there are some decent alternatives out there that kids actually like and to want to play with. Our grandkids got a some of this stuff for Christmas and it is pretty cool stuff. They claim 100% recycled and 100% made in USA.

Check them out!

http://www.greentoys.com/our-passion#3?show=content


heineken515 - 2/15/2017 at 06:54 PM

I certainly do read labels of most everything I buy, although it sounds like you go to greater lengths to find that Made in USA item when one isn't readily available there on the shelf.

It amazes me to see country of origin on some stuff, tooth brushes for example - I refuse to buy/use a toothbrush made in China, but check it out next time you shop, you too will be amazed where these things are made these days.

Frustrating to read labels only to find it doesn't say where it was made. It may say distributed by or simply give the corporate address of the company, but I am looking for Made in USA, so if it doesn't say that, one can guess what they are hiding.

Edit: and I bookmarked that green toys site, thanks !

[Edited on 2/15/2017 by heineken515]


nebish - 2/19/2017 at 04:57 AM

quote:
I certainly do read labels of most everything I buy, although it sounds like you go to greater lengths to find that Made in USA item when one isn't readily available there on the shelf.

It amazes me to see country of origin on some stuff, tooth brushes for example - I refuse to buy/use a toothbrush made in China, but check it out next time you shop, you too will be amazed where these things are made these days.

Frustrating to read labels only to find it doesn't say where it was made. It may say distributed by or simply give the corporate address of the company, but I am looking for Made in USA, so if it doesn't say that, one can guess what they are hiding.

Edit: and I bookmarked that green toys site, thanks !

[Edited on 2/15/2017 by heineken515]


Sometimes items that are boxed in a case, the individual items may not say where they are made, but the case box would say were they are from. I have seen this in auto parts warehouses, where the product or the individual product box said nothing of country, but if you saw the case box still on the warehouse shelf you may see the country there. When it is on a retail shelf you lose that opportunity to see the case box of course.

Just us buying things that are made in USA without telling people about it and why it is important to us doesn't really do anything. I mean, really my own efforts likely won't effect anything big picture, but we can plant seeds in the minds of people we come in contact with.

This will sound crazy, but sometimes I take something to the register that I saw was imported, but when I'm at check out I pretend I just saw that it was imported right then and there and I tell the cashier that I don't want it and that I try to buy as many things made in USA as possible. This usually gets 3 reactions. The confident "I'm with you on that", or the debbie-downers "nothing is made here anymore", or the always rewarding reaction of "that's fine whatever".


nebish - 2/19/2017 at 05:22 AM

The border adjustment tax is shaping up to be the vehicle in which Washington may address the import / export trade imbalance and outsourcing issue. A massive tax plan is expected and it would be rolled into that. Alot of Republicans are against it, not surprising given their views of free markets and free trade. Border adjustment tax on it's own, I suspect many Democrats will support, but rolled into a larger tax reform bill, I doubt that all that many Democrats will find favor with the overall bill based on the historical push-pull Ds and Rs have on taxes.

Companies with large manufacturing and assembly operations in the US would be for it. Most retailers (who have a large portion of imported goods on their shelf) are against it. Although former Walmart CEO is for it (on big picture principle rather than individual effects it has on one company or anther):

quote:
“[The CEOs in opposition to the tax] are making their decisions based on the tax code as it is set up today, and what’s being proposed is a complete reform of the tax code where the incentives to export jobs and export businesses that have existed for years would be turned around so that the incentives to build capability and jobs in the U.S. would exist,” Bill Simon, former Walmart U.S. president and CEO, said during an interview with FOX Business’ Stuart Varney Wednesday.


A company like Autozone for instance a strongly against it. But this is a key point to be made here, auto parts and accessories are increasingly getting harder and harder to find made in the US. So autozone looks at it's skus and where they come from and conclude that the cost of what they sell will go up and they may have less sales, less profit or be less competitive. BUT, what if some of these companies making the parts begin to make the parts here again to avoid the tax? Then we get the benefit of manufacturing facilities and the jobs and all the local and state taxes that come with it to benefit our communities.

Some calculations have it raising a trillion dollars over some period of time, which will offset a reduction in corporate incomes.

The government may just be happy collecting the tax, but as I have stated, the idea is to incentivize more companies both US and foreign to produce their products in our country with our workers.

We'll see where it goes.

Here is an article on border adjustment tax vs targeted tariffs
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/02/paul_ryans_border_adjustmen t_tax_vs_donald_trumps_targeted_tariffs.html

Lots of articles around right now that you can find on the issue.
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/11/514650890/trump-gop-at-odds-over-border-adjus tment-tax
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-breakingviews-idUSKBN15920G


[Edited on 2/19/2017 by nebish]


LeglizHemp - 2/20/2017 at 09:13 PM

just another FYI

My salesman just got back from a week in Mexico visiting customers. General consensus was they are not coming back and are willing to let the US consumer pay higher prices for parts. CNC machines aren't made in the USA, nor are alot of cutting tools. Other supplies required for manufacturing can be purchased from sources outside the USA also. Workers there in general have been getting a 5% raise each year for the last few years. A lot of what's made down there is sold south of the border anyhow. Now i'm not talking about every manufacturer, just the ones I deal with.


nebish - 2/21/2017 at 12:54 AM

quote:
just another FYI

My salesman just got back from a week in Mexico visiting customers. General consensus was they are not coming back and are willing to let the US consumer pay higher prices for parts. CNC machines aren't made in the USA, nor are alot of cutting tools. Other supplies required for manufacturing can be purchased from sources outside the USA also. Workers there in general have been getting a 5% raise each year for the last few years. A lot of what's made down there is sold south of the border anyhow. Now i'm not talking about every manufacturer, just the ones I deal with.


Haas

quote:
Today, Haas manufactures four major product lines: vertical machining centers (VMCs), horizontal machining centers (HMCs), CNC lathes and rotary tables, as well as a number of large five-axis and specialty machines. All Haas products are manufactured at the company's expansive facility in Oxnard, California – the largest, most modern machine tool manufacturing operation in the United States.
http://www.haascnc.com/about_history.asp#gsc.tab=0



I knew Haas was USA. Not sure if anyone else is. Where are the Japanese machines made? I know they are regarded for very high quality. They build those in Asia or Mexico?

Holding fixtures -

Orange Vise 100% USA
http://orangevise.com/

Kurt's website says made in USA
http://www.kurt.com/product_solutions/kurt-workholding-solutions

Granger shows 2,229 machine tool related items with USA country of origin.


LeglizHemp - 2/21/2017 at 01:31 AM

Haas are good machines but......not for 24/7 manufacturing. they are fairly weak throw away machines compared to mazak and okuma etc.

the workholding companies you name don't do integrated turnkey systems integrated i mean they may do some, but not the type automotive need for a lot of parts. i don't want to give away too much....NDA's and all

lol, i do workholding....we are american


nebish - 2/21/2017 at 01:49 AM

You are certainly more qualified than me on the day-to-day use of CNCs. I've been around many machine tools, but have never used a mill, lathe or CNC.

Funny, did I link to two of your competitors? That would be weird! What if I unknowingly linked to your company?

My friend is a machinist and has taught machine trades at the high school and career/vocational school level.

Haas sponsored a competitive rock crawling Jeep his students built. Haas is also part owner of a very good nascar team. You are about to learn alot more about nascar this year!


LeglizHemp - 2/21/2017 at 02:01 AM

LOL, no those guys not close to my competitors. Haas makes good stuff for smaller shops....thats why they advertise in Nascar. they also make good CNC controls. they are not a bad company but i have never owned one, which means absolutely nothing.


LeglizHemp - 2/21/2017 at 02:17 AM

i will say a CNC that can do multiple operations is worthless if you don't have workholding to hold the part while it happens. its always a struggle between theory and reality.


nebish - 3/4/2017 at 02:12 PM



quote:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hasbro-to-make-play-doh-american-again-1488031 202
By Paul Ziobro
Feb. 25, 2017 9:00 a.m. ET
93 COMMENTS

Play-Doh will soon be squeezed out of a factory in the U.S. again, as Hasbro Inc. brings manufacturing of the popular moldable clay back to America for the first time in years.

Hasbro said it is working with a manufacturing partner to make Play-Doh at a facility in East Longmeadow, Mass., starting in the second half of 2018. Although the preschool clay was invented in Cincinnati in the 1950s, it hasn’t been made in the U.S. since 2004.


Play-doh moves to the approved grandchild gift list next year!


nebish - 3/4/2017 at 02:15 PM

Same article:

quote:
Companies are exploring new places to make toys as the Trump administration and Congress weigh a dramatic overhaul of U.S. tax policy. One proposal from House Republicans would prevent companies from deducting the cost of imports when calculating their taxes, while exempting proceeds from exports. That plan has been under attack from retailers, senators and oil refiners. Mr. Trump has offered ambivalent positions on the border-adjustment idea, but he has consistently said he wants policies that favor domestic manufacturing.

Such a change would have serious implications for the $25 billion U.S. toy industry, which has long made the vast majority of its product overseas. The research firm IBISWorld estimates that 98.5% of all toys sold in the U.S. last year were made elsewhere.

Toy companies are assessing the different scenarios. Mattel Inc. executives said last month that if the government imposes a major tax on imported products, the company would have to adjust its manufacturing footprint. Mattel closed its last U.S. production site—a Fisher-Price factory in Murray, Ky.—in 2002.

“Shorter term, there’s not much we can do about that,” said Kevin Farr, Mattel’s finance chief, on an earnings conference call. “Longer term, I think we would react to it.”


"have to adjust it's manufacturing footprint"...Taxing imports can yield the desired results.


BoytonBrother - 3/5/2017 at 03:42 AM

Yes, lets be calm and rational when discussing Trump. That will show 'em.


nebish - 3/5/2017 at 03:04 PM

39 page weekly flier from Menards featuring all Made in USA products. I saved it as a good reference resource if nothing else, the ad lists the states the items are made in.

http://www.menards.com/main/flyer.html?&flyer_run_id=212944&locale= en&flyer_type_name=weekly&utm_content=Made-In-the-USA&utm_mediu m=email&utm_campaign=10A-2017%20(1)&utm_source=SilverpopMailing& ;cm_mmc=silverpop-_-email-_-10A-2017%20(1)-_-Made-In-the-USA&store_code =3316


Sang - 3/8/2017 at 07:56 PM

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-made-in-america-20170308-story.html


Saw someone post this on Facebook...

When you stroll the aisles of the Made in America Store, you might notice a conspicuous absence. There is not a single item for sale that requires a battery or a plug. That is because no electronics meet the strict guidelines of an emporium that stocks only products 100% made in America.

Still, American-made goods abound — socks and hiking boots, plastic lawn furniture, flags and decals, beer and barbecue sauce, mops and sponges. Toilet paper.

There are three aisles of toys, non-electronic, that veer toward the nostalgic: playing cards, horseshoes, marbles and jacks, boomerangs, Slinkies, perhaps their bestselling item. Checkers and Chinese checkers. (Not the kind made in China.)

The Made in America Store is the brainchild of Mark Andol, 50, an energetic, mile-a-minute talker with silver-tinged, waved-back hair and a wispy mustache.

Andol, the third generation of a Greek immigrant family, was raised on American manufacturing. His father was an ironworker employed at the Ford stamping plant in nearby Buffalo and his mother made xylophone keys for a subcontractor of Fisher-Price, the toy company headquartered in nearby East Aurora.

Andol was frustrated that his welding company, which made metal parts for industry, kept losing contracts to cheaper Chinese competitors. So on a whim, in 2010, he rented a vacant automobile dealership to showcase American products.

“Sure, Mark. The world is fully of crazy people. Go for it,’’ Andol recalls he was told.

Filling the cavernous building proved more difficult than Andol imagined. At first he carried only 50 products. He had set a standard higher than the Federal Trade Commission, requiring that the products be 100% U.S. made “right down to the glue in the packaging.’’

Andol was familiar with the certification procedures because he sometimes bid on military contracts, which give preference to U.S. suppliers under a 1941 law called the Berry amendment. He would pore over binders with letters certifying the origins of the components only to be crushed when he had to dump a product that did not make the cut.

“I was so excited to find tea from the United States because I’m a tea drinker, but then I found out the bags were made in Japan and I had to kick it out of the store,” he said.

In homage to his mother’s past making xylophone keys, Andol badly wanted to sell toys from Fisher-Price, which has its headquarters just two miles away.

“They used to have model builders, toy makers, engineers working here, but now they are all gone and only the corporate headquarters is here,’’ Andol said. “I couldn’t find one Fisher-Price toy completely made in America.’’

Other retailers are trying an all-American approach, but it is a constant struggle. Today, Andol boasts that he stocks 7,000 items, although admittedly the numbers get a boost from some products that are essentially the same but come in different sizes or colors. He has opened several branch stores and sells online.

Shoppers in search of a specific item would be advised to head to Wal-Mart. But the novelty of shopping American is enough of an adventure that the Made in America flagship attracts more than 600 tour buses annually.

The store is decked out in an American theme, the walls covered with large completely American-made American flags. (The U.S. imports about $4 million in American flags from China each year.) T-shirts are plastered with the store’s slogan, “Because China is a long drive to work!”

For all the anti-China rhetoric, some of the best customers are Chinese tourists.

“The Chinese go ballistic buying stuff in there because it is made in America, not made in China,’’ said Eric Bateman, a tour bus operator from Conrad, Iowa, who brings tourists on their way to Niagara Falls. “Mark sells these great, simple things. You can buy a can opener and put it in the dishwasher and it doesn’t rust.’’

Bringing manufacturing back to the United States — and preserving manufacturing still here — is seen as the holy grail of economic revival for many policymakers and politicians. “My administration will follow two simple rules: Buy American, and hire American,” Donald Trump declared at a postelection victory rally in Des Moines last year.

And yet they are elusive goals, many economists say.

“We live in a world today where you have very complex interdependent supply networks,’’ said Willy Shih, a professor at Harvard Business School who has written extensively on the need for a U.S. manufacturing revival. “One of the challenges with technology is that you have a lot of high-value components from various sources.”

From experience, Andol knows that hiring American labor can be as difficult as sourcing American products. At his manufacturing shop, he is struggling to find skilled welders, fabricators and engineers, and the people he hires are undoubtedly more expensive than foreign workers.

“If I took my $2.4-million payroll overseas, I’d be paying $400,000,” Andol said. “But you need to support the country you live in too.”

Andol is enthusiastic about President Trump’s promises to bring back American goods, though a little disappointed that Trump and his daughter Ivanka had so much of the clothing they sell manufactured outside the U.S.

“I think it is very hard, but I personally know clothing can be made here… and some of what we sell is cheaper than the imports,’’ he said.

To prove his point, Andol explains his own wardrobe. He wears Texas Jeans (which are actually made in Asheville, N.C.), Wigwam socks, Thorogood work boots. It’s all made in American right down to the underwear, belt and the wallet he carries. The only notable except is what he always carries: the iPhone.



nebish - 3/9/2017 at 05:07 PM

Thanks Sang for posting that.

As much time as I do spend trying to buy USA (either made or assembled) I have never and can't imagine actually trying to verify where all the components are made. To me personally, if it is assembled in the USA with all foreign components that is still better than foreign assembled with all foreign components. I have read stories from companies who seek domestic components for their products and in many cases those parts are just not available here.

The FTC says in order for a product to be labeled made in USA that “All or virtually all” means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content

That is a very high standard, and difficult in many cases for companies to achieve.

New Balance shoes says that if the content is 70% domestic value, they label them as "made in USA". If it is under 70% but built here, they label those "assembled in USA".

To me 'assembled in the USA with domestic and foreign components' satisfies what I am looking for - and often that is as good as it gets on many products.


nebish - 3/9/2017 at 05:31 PM

A few electronics off the top of my head that likely don't meet the Made in USA store's criteria, but are assembled in the USA to my knowledge:

Most Wahl shavers

Some CHI branded hair dryers and irons

Dewalt is reintroducing cordless and corded power tools as assembled in USA

Wolf and Dacor microwaves (although costing $500 and up)

Bunn has some limited USA coffee makers

Kitchen Aid has USA mixers

MagLite flash lights (and Surefire flashlights a higher end flashlight)

Princeton headlamp flashlights

Some table lamps and wall/ceiling mounted light fixtures are made in USA, but the wiring and bulb/switch components are foreign

RCA labels an indoor/outdoor over the air HD antenna as USA

Leviton has many electrical outlets and switches USA

Hubbell has some 220v electrical outlets and other products USA

Vornado has a couple small heaters assembled in USA

Shop Vac branded shop vacs are still listed as USA (most other shop type vacs are not)

Some Oreck and Ricar sweepers

There is still some very high end consumer audio/video equipment + professional recording and amplifying equipment that is USA

Big Ass Fans (large industrial ceiling fans)

Fellows paper shredders (expensive commercial units)

Aprilaire dehumidifiers (some other high end dehumidifiers also USA)

Some outside security lights (newer LED units, not HID or HPS)

Some outside low voltage landscape lighting

Some Braun bathroom exhaust fans

There are probably some others I am not thinking of. Electronics assembled in the USA are out there, but exclusively using USA parts? - it must be virtually impossible as the article states.


nebish - 3/9/2017 at 05:38 PM

Kid Rock is diversifying himself it appears:

Bad Ass Grill - Made in USA
https://americanbadassgrill.com/




quote:
Kid Rock's 'American Badass' grill will promote U.S. manufacturing, jobs
Introducing Kid Rock's American Badass Grill

Brandon Champion | bchampio@mlive.com By Brandon Champion | bchampio@mlive.com

March 03, 2017 at 1:59 PM, updated March 03, 2017 at 2:13 PM

DETROIT -- Add grills to the list of merchandise Kid Rock is offering to the world.

The Detroit musician announced the "American Badass Grill" via his social media channels on Friday, March 3. The release comes with a message of keeping jobs in the United States. The grills will be manufactured 100 percent in America.

As only he can, Kid Rock hammered that point home in an explosive promotional video posted to a Facebook page dedicated to the product.

"We got grills that are made in China," he says in the video as "Bawitdaba" plays in the background. "We got 50 cals that are made in America. This is 100 percent, pure American badass."

He then proceeds to use the gun to shoot and destroy the Chinese grill.

The portable, full-throttle grill comes in gas or charcoal and is large enough to fit 12 burgers. The charcoal grill costs $99.95 and the gas grill is listed at $149.95.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2017/03/kid_rock_joins_grill_ma rket_to.html


nebish - 3/13/2017 at 03:45 PM

NAFTA update

quote:
Nafta Renegotiation Timeline Could Weaken Mexico’s Bargaining Power

Talks could overlap with next year’s elections, risking rejection of any pact by whomever wins the presidency

By Juan Montes and
Dudley Althaus in Mexico City and
William Mauldin in Washington
Updated March 10, 2017 3:05 p.m. ET
26 COMMENTS

An uncertain timetable for renegotiating the North American Free Trade Agreement is sparking concern in Mexico that the complex talks will become entangled with the country’s presidential elections next year, undermining its government’s bargaining position and ability to get a deal approved.

Senior Mexican officials have said they want to complete negotiations by year’s end. But observers see that goal as overly optimistic and fear pushing talks deep into next year risks rejection by whomever wins the July 2018 vote.

A lame duck President Enrique Peña Nieto could have trouble garnering support in Congress, where his party now lacks an outright majority, and as the election nears, it will be increasingly difficult for his government to make any concession to a U.S. administration that is highly unpopular in his country, analysts say.

On Friday, Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross said he hoped to notify Congress in the coming weeks of the Trump administration’s intention to renegotiate Nafta, starting a required 90-day clock for consultations with U.S. lawmakers.

“There will be lots of discussions about lots of issues,” Mr. Ross told reporters after meeting with Mexican Economy Minister Ildefonso Guajardo. Starting U.S. consultations soon could permit formal trade talks to begin by July, meeting Mexican officials’ preferred timeline to minimize political risks, but still push them well into next year.

“The process is likely to stretch to the second half of next year,” said Jaime Zabludovsky, a former Mexican official who helped negotiate Nafta in the early 1990s. “Trade talks risk becoming the piñata of Mexico’s election.”

Negotiations during Mexico’s political season could further heighten uncertainty, which already has hit the Mexican currency, hampered investment and throttled growth, analysts say. A weaker peso could further widen Mexico´s trade surplus with the U.S. by boosting cheaper Mexican imports and denting demand in Mexico for costlier American products.

President Donald Trump made renegotiating Nafta, which he has labeled as the “worst trade deal ever,” a key campaign promise. He shocked Mexicans with claims that the pact—which also includes Canada—has unfairly benefited Mexico, which last year posted a trade surplus with the U.S. of about $63 billion.

Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto spoke at a meeting of the National Agricultural Council in Mexico City on Feb. 2. If Nafta negotiations extend well into next year, Mexican presidential candidates would likely use them to attack the Peña Nieto administration.
Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto spoke at a meeting of the National Agricultural Council in Mexico City on Feb. 2. If Nafta negotiations extend well into next year, Mexican presidential candidates would likely use them to attack the Peña Nieto administration. Photo: Rebecca Blackwell/Associated Press

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Friday said his government is prepared for any proposed renegotiation of Nafta. This isn’t a “zero-sum game in terms of negotiations,” Mr. Trudeau added.

Mr. Trump has sought to speed up Nafta renegotiation, and his advisers say new aspects of Nafta could serve as a blueprint for bilateral negotiations with other countries such as Japan and the U.K. But the U.S. Congress is also eager to play a role in setting priorities of the talks and could slow down the process, which could also be complicated by midterm elections in 2018. Some lawmakers are wary of opening up Nafta to changes.

“The next two years look politically and electorally difficult on both sides,” said Tony Payan, a Mexican political scientist with the Baker Institute at Rice University in Houston. “This is why free trade agreements are often negotiated in the dark.”

Comments by Mr. Ross earlier this week that the talks “hopefully won’t take more than a year” raised eyebrows in Mexico. Such a protracted process could weaken Mr. Peña Nieto’s political capital with both lawmakers and the public if his administration is seen as losing in the talks, analysts say.

A revised Nafta would require the approval of Mexico’s Senate, where the ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party only has a simple majority. If negotiations extend well into next year, presidential candidates would likely use them—and Mr. Trump’s deep unpopularity in Mexico—to attack the Peña Nieto administration.

Recent opinion polls place leftist Andrés Manuel López Obrador ahead in what is expected to be a bitterly contested presidential election campaign. Though he has spoken favorably of Nafta in recent months, Mr. López Obrador has been a sharp critic of the free-market policies of Mr. Peña Nieto and other recent presidents.

U.S. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross said Friday that any talks with Mexico and Canada over the North American Free Trade Agreement ‘will either be two parallel bilaterals with symmetrical provisions or one new trilateral.’ Photo: Justin Sullivan/Getty Images

“There may be enough time, but it’s difficult to tell until there’s more clarity over what exactly the U.S. wants to change,” said Moisés Kalach, a businessman who coordinates the government’s business advisory group on trade talks. “If they want a deep overhaul, it could be problematic.”

In 2011, talks between Mexico and Japan to renegotiate their free-trade agreement lasted more than a year. Mexico’s renegotiation of a free-trade deal with the European Union started in 2015 and hasn’t concluded yet.

Both U.S. and Mexican officials have stressed this week that it is too early to discuss any particulars on what might be produced by negotiations. Mexican officials began consultations with the country’s business community weeks ago. Mr. Guajardo, Mexico’s economic minister, has said that any new U.S. import duties would be a deal breaker.

“There has been no talk about unilateral actions,” Mexican Foreign Minister Luis Videgaray said in Washington on Thursday, after a day of “constructive” talks with senior U.S. officials.

—Paul Vieira contributed to this article.

Write to Juan Montes at juan.montes@wsj.com, Dudley Althaus at Dudley.Althaus@wsj.com and William Mauldin at william.mauldin@wsj.com

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-signals-nafta-talks-could-start-as-soon-as -late-june-1489161050



[Edited on 3/13/2017 by nebish]


heineken515 - 3/13/2017 at 07:22 PM

I do business with Dollar Shave Club, mainly because I liked the commercials and I think the prices for razors in the stores are way too high.

Over the years I have also started to buy their shave gel and one hair product. The shave gel says "Made in the USA" on the back, the hair product not, so I sent them an email and asked about the hair product and also their razors.

They responded that not only the shave gel but also the hair products are indeed made in USA, but the razors were made in S. Korea - dangit, I suppose that was asking too much.


BoytonBrother - 3/14/2017 at 06:16 AM

I can't wait until Mr. Trump stops the incentivization of outsourcing. I have no doubt he'll make that a priority.


nebish - 3/14/2017 at 06:30 PM

quote:
I do business with Dollar Shave Club, mainly because I liked the commercials and I think the prices for razors in the stores are way too high.

Over the years I have also started to buy their shave gel and one hair product. The shave gel says "Made in the USA" on the back, the hair product not, so I sent them an email and asked about the hair product and also their razors.

They responded that not only the shave gel but also the hair products are indeed made in USA, but the razors were made in S. Korea - dangit, I suppose that was asking too much.


I think there is one of those member companies that offers USA razors...can't remember their name, maybe google knows. I use an electric that was made in Netherlands, had it for long time now. I have thought about trying a Wahl if it was USA. Some of the Phillips and Norelco shavers are still made in Europe.

quote:
I can't wait until Mr. Trump stops the incentivization of outsourcing. I have no doubt he'll make that a priority.


Talk is cheap. We'll see what the actions are. Please don't make any mistake, my personal interest in this subject is not a newfound attachment with Trump, goes much much further and deeper than that.


nebish - 3/21/2017 at 01:50 PM

Passed this onto a friend yesterday thought I'd post it here as well.

This is where we get our bedding sheets and covers, etc.

https://www.amdorm.com/collections/dorm-bedding/Dorm-Bedding


Sang - 3/21/2017 at 04:51 PM

My wife and I have had a Tempurpedic bed for more than 10 years. She wanted something new, so I did some searching online. We decided to try the Eight Sleep mattress, which has a technology layer that tracks your sleep and has a feature to warm each side of the bed to different temperatures. Just ordered it, so I don't have it yet. According to them the mattress is Made in the USA, but the technology layer (which goes over the bed like a mattress pad) is made in China.


LeglizHemp - 4/18/2017 at 09:44 PM

Nebish, Hi, with this new executive order i thought of you. a thought popped into my head about how you try very hard to buy american. do you apply the same rules at the grocery store? are there alot of fruits and vegetables you won't eat because they are only grown outside the USA. i'm not making fun of you, i am sincerely curious. are there restaurants you won't eat at because they are owned by a corporation from outside the USA? i didn't read back thru the thread to see if this was discussed, sorry if it was.

i think i remember its not a hard and fast rule just something to try to do your best at.


nebish - 4/19/2017 at 02:28 PM

quote:
Nebish, Hi, with this new executive order i thought of you. a thought popped into my head about how you try very hard to buy american. do you apply the same rules at the grocery store? are there alot of fruits and vegetables you won't eat because they are only grown outside the USA. i'm not making fun of you, i am sincerely curious. are there restaurants you won't eat at because they are owned by a corporation from outside the USA? i didn't read back thru the thread to see if this was discussed, sorry if it was.

i think i remember its not a hard and fast rule just something to try to do your best at.


That's nice of you to think of me!

I am a little out of the loop this week being on the road. I will have to look into the EO.

Vegetables are never a problem, atleast the ones I eat. Fresh and frozen vegetables that I buy have always been able to be easily found as produce of the USA.

Fruit is a little tougher. I buy grapes from California. If they are from Chile or Peru I leave them. Blueberries can be tough, at times you can find them from California, other times Central America. Bananas are always imported at my stores and I do buy those. Unless I had a local Florida or Hawaii source I don't know where in the US I could buy Bananas from.

One funny thing about organic. You know you have organic produce, some of it USA some of it imported. And organic is more money and some people buy that because they believe in the benefit of organic produce. I don't hear too much fear mongering about higher prices for organic produce. But if you say we should have more USA product, produce or goods in general look out "all that is going to do is rise prices and hurt people".

Just comes down to what you care about and believe in.

But yeah, grocery shopping food in general. I look at everything.

Restaurants? I've asked where a restaurant's shrimp comes from before and got blank stares back. If you are in the south, those people can typically answer that question and hopefully if they tell you it is US caught or raised you can believe them.

All this push for dietary and calorie data on menus...how about some country sourcing on menus?

Honestly I know very little about who owns what restaurants.

Alot of times I do not know if brand x is owned by a domestic or foreign company/country either, but it doesn't always matter anyway. I would buy a Honda or Toyota made in the USA before I would buy a Chevy or Ford made in Mexico or Korea. I celebrate foreign brands making their goods here just as much as I do US brands. And I demonize them both equally for taking advantage of cheaper costs abroad to import those products for sale here.

My view comes down to where the local investment and employment is taking place in our country regardless of it is foreign or domestic ownership. More foreign companies making things here instead of abroad is a good outcome for my beliefs. So I am not anti-foreign person, I just want average people to be able to have jobs available to them here and if we have more jobs chasing fewer workers then wages and benefits for workers can rise naturally.


heineken515 - 4/19/2017 at 03:09 PM

I would love country of origin listed on restaurant menu's !

I'll never forget the time I picked up a can of green beans in Publix, Del Monte or Jolly Green Giant or some other big name - fine print on the back - "produced in China" - on a can of green beans for goodness sake.

Shrimp is a tough one for sure. Living in Florida has spoiled me somewhat on seafood, not that imported seafood doesn't exist here, it does, but in that shrimp, stone crabs, fish are all available locally caught.

Ate some stone crab claws last night, ummm.


OriginalGoober - 4/20/2017 at 11:28 PM

You mean Sysco is not an acceptable answer ?


LeglizHemp - 4/20/2017 at 11:34 PM

thanks for the reply nebish, i have nothing to add other than i think, not sure, that Trump wants to do away with that kind of labeling. i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong, lol, or right.


2112 - 4/21/2017 at 12:18 AM

quote:
I would love country of origin listed on restaurant menu's !

I'll never forget the time I picked up a can of green beans in Publix, Del Monte or Jolly Green Giant or some other big name - fine print on the back - "produced in China" - on a can of green beans for goodness sake.

Shrimp is a tough one for sure. Living in Florida has spoiled me somewhat on seafood, not that imported seafood doesn't exist here, it does, but in that shrimp, stone crabs, fish are all available locally caught.

Ate some stone crab claws last night, ummm.


I'd like to know the country of origin of all food, but particularly meat. If you, like me, are pissed off that Congress took away country of origin labeling last year and want to know who to blame, here is a list of how each member of Congress voted:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/114-2015/h333


nebish - 4/28/2017 at 01:40 PM

Some guys I went to automotive trade school with were there on TAA or TRA money who were laid off when Werner Ladder shifted production from western PA to Mexico.

It's gotten hard to find a new ladder made in the USA.

Here is an option. You can buy a few of them from online sources, or there may be a distributor in your area if interested. I own some.

http://michiganladder.com/

[Edited on 4/28/2017 by nebish]


Jerry - 5/5/2017 at 08:03 PM

If you are looking for tires, Kumo tires are made here in Macon, Ga. They just doubled production about a year ago.


gina - 5/7/2017 at 11:02 PM

quote:
Mexico will not renegotiate nafta http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37945913
And they are NOT paying for any f#cking wall.



Don't they have enough revenue from the pot trafficking and officials being paid off so that people sneak it thru customs at the border? Don't they have enough revenue to pay for the wall, seriously!


heineken515 - 5/9/2017 at 06:09 PM

We have a Samsung refrigerator with a water filter that occasionally needs replaced.

These things are not cheap at Lowe's as they only carry the original Samsung replacement at $49.99 for one.

Went searching online and found discountfilters.com

They had a filter they say is Made in the USA, brand name Clear Choice.

I got a pack of three for the same price as the Samsung filter at Lowe's - with free shipping !


nebish - 5/10/2017 at 02:28 PM

Speaking of filters...

If your water system uses a cartridge style sediment filter those are hard to find made in USA. Here is a source I have bought from:

http://www.micronfiltercartridges.com/index.html


nebish - 5/10/2017 at 02:38 PM

quote:
If you are looking for tires, Kumo tires are made here in Macon, Ga. They just doubled production about a year ago.


A friend of mine who balances tires has praised the quality of some of the Japanese tires. I am not too familiar with the Korean brands, although I'm seeing more of them on new cars.

I am partial to US brands, but bottom line, if Kumho or any foreign brand is building more products here employing Americans and supporting US communities vs importing them that is a good thing.


heineken515 - 5/10/2017 at 02:50 PM

quote:
Speaking of filters...

If your water system uses a cartridge style sediment filter those are hard to find made in USA. Here is a source I have bought from:

http://www.micronfiltercartridges.com/index.html


From the above website:

One filter brand had an American Flag on the package with the words-

“Made for the U.S.A.”

which could easily be mistaken for “Made in the U.S.A.” Obviously, the brand was trying to be deceptive with their customers.


nebish - 5/10/2017 at 06:05 PM

quote:
quote:
Speaking of filters...

If your water system uses a cartridge style sediment filter those are hard to find made in USA. Here is a source I have bought from:

http://www.micronfiltercartridges.com/index.html


From the above website:

One filter brand had an American Flag on the package with the words-

“Made for the U.S.A.”

which could easily be mistaken for “Made in the U.S.A.” Obviously, the brand was trying to be deceptive with their customers.


Yeah pretty crazy the depth some people will go to fool others!

I'm wasn't aware of any other of these types of filters (called point of entry filters) that are made in USA except for Micron Filter Corp. The link you posted for discount filters does show some of the Hydronix brand with an American flag on it, although their description doesn't say. Everpure and Pentek do not have any USA photos or references. Never saw a name brand one in a hardware or plumbing store that was US.


heineken515 - 5/10/2017 at 06:26 PM

I may have been duped on the filters I bought, when they come in I'll scour the fine print, see what I find.


LeglizHemp - 5/23/2017 at 12:35 PM

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/business/harley-davidson-thailand-factor y-manufacturing.html?_r=0

Even Harley-Davidson Can’t Resist the Tug of Overseas Factories


heineken515 - 5/23/2017 at 07:06 PM

The filters I mentioned above were indeed made in the USA by the way.

That Harley news is a little different.

This from a different article:

The plant is known as a complete knock down facility, an assembly plant where Harley-Davidson will put together bikes using parts shipped from its U.S. factories or suppliers.

Harleys made in Thailand will support sales in China and southeastern Asia, as the manufacturer works toward its goal of growing its international business to half of annual sales by 2027.

Thailand has a 60% tax on imported bikes, a tax that would not apply to Harleys assembled for delivery inside the country’s borders.


nebish - 5/25/2017 at 02:59 AM

The Harley story is a prime example of how a tariff works and what companies will do to avoid it. What if we had a 60% tariff on cars imported from Korea? Think Kia and Hyundai would be building more plants here? You betcha.


nebish - 1/11/2018 at 08:24 PM

Reviving our old thread as my interest in political and current event topics is on the upswing:

Toyota building Corolla in the US rather than Mexico! Nice!


quote:
Japanese automakers Toyota and Mazda confirmed plans Friday to build a $1.6 billion U.S. assembly plant that would create up to 4,000 jobs as part of an extensive new alliance. Toyota said it would make the Corolla sedan at the factory instead of in Mexico as previously intended.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2017/08/04/toyota-corolla-mazda-m exico/539179001/



The actual plant will be built in Huntsville, AL
http://www.al.com/business/index.ssf/2018/01/its_official_toyota-mazda_anno .html#incart_big-photo

4,000 jobs could turn into 16,000 as supply chain jobs come into the region. This is why manufacturing is so so so important to our economy. The job multiplier and the good wages and benefits plus the tax revenue for the local communities can't be matched by other employment sectors.

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2018/01/could_4000_toyota-mazda _jobs_t.html#incart_big-photo


nebish - 1/12/2018 at 07:53 PM

My wife has been finding lots of made in the USA women's clothes on this site:

https://gozon.com/


IF - 1/13/2018 at 04:47 PM

General Pencil Company

http://www.generalpencil.com/

Great article in The New York Times @ link below

Inside One of America’s Last Pencil Factories
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/magazine/inside-one-of-americas-last-pen cil-factories.html




nebish - 1/13/2018 at 09:39 PM

quote:
General Pencil Company

http://www.generalpencil.com/

Great article in The New York Times @ link below

Inside One of America’s Last Pencil Factories
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/magazine/inside-one-of-americas-last-pen cil-factories.html






Very cool. Since 1889. That one worker photographed has been there 47 years!

Last I checked the Papermate mechanical pencils were USA. I have some regular pencils, will have to see if they are General.


nebish - 1/13/2018 at 11:43 PM

On a sadder note, a few years ago my wife bought these magnet sets called "Create-a-Scene", it was a thing that folded open with magnet pieces kids could play with. We had a school, a house, a jungle, etc. They were big hits with the kids. They were made in USA. My wife just went to buy another one and they are made in China now.

Also, I noticed awhile ago Energizer batteries are starting to say something on the package like made in USA, Japan, Thailand, China, Singapore, etc. The actual battery will say where it is made and I've always been able to easily find ones that say made in or assembled in USA. I just saw some for the first time that said made in Poland. Duracells are the same way now, but not sure if it is as common, I've still been able to find USA ones.


nebish - 1/14/2018 at 12:00 AM

More good news in the automobile manufacturing sector!

quote:
Fiat Chrysler will invest $1B in Warren Truck plant; bring Ram work back from Mexico

Eric D. Lawrence, Detroit Free Press Published 6:02 p.m. ET Jan. 11, 2018 | Updated 1:08 p.m. ET Jan. 12, 2018

Fiat Chrysler Automobiles will invest more than $1 billion to modernize the company's Warren Truck Plant in metro Detroit, adding 2,500 jobs and moving production of its Ram Heavy Duty trucks from Mexico.

The changeover is to be complete in 2020.

The company said Thursday evening that the new federal tax law made the shift possible. That legislation, signed into law in December, cut the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%.

FCA also announced $2,000 bonuses that will be paid in the second quarter of this year to 60,000 hourly and salaried employees in the U.S., excluding senior leadership. Those bonuses are to be in addition to any profit sharing or performance bonuses the employees would receive this year.

More Fiat Chrysler news:

History of Warren Truck Assembly Plant

Fear of NAFTA collapse seen as factor in move of Ram production from Mexico

Trump tweets praise Fiat Chrysler's 'wise decision' to shift from Mexico to Detroit area

"These announcements reflect our ongoing commitment to our U.S. manufacturing footprint and the dedicated employees who have contributed to FCA's success," Fiat Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne said in a news release. "It is only proper that our employees share in the savings generated by tax reform and that we openly acknowledge the resulting improvement in the U.S. business environment by investing in our industrial footprint accordingly."

The investments will likely be one of the topics Monday when Marchionne is scheduled to speak to reporters at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

Natalie Farquhar of Port Huron works as a laborer at Center Line Packaging, which is part of FCA's Mopar division. The 23½-year company veteran was thrilled by the announcement.

"Wow! Wow, that’s great. That’s wonderful," Farquhar said, noting that the investment and bonuses tell her the company is doing well. She said she is hopeful the company will also start making full-time hires of the many temporary workers she knows of at numerous FCA plants.

"I'm thinking that's really good. A lot of these people who've been putting time in and working will be getting hired and getting full-time positions," Farquhar said.

Asked what she will do with her bonus, Farquhar laughed and said she might opt to help out the economy by making a down payment on a pontoon boat.

The investments announced Thursday will be in addition to plans FCA unveiled last January when it said it would spend $1 billion at Warren Truck and in Toledo to expand Jeep production.

The company plans to build the Jeep Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer in Warren, is retooling in Toledo to produce a Jeep truck and is shifting production of the Ram 1500 to Sterling Heights. That's part of a broader plan that included shifting Jeep Cherokee production from Toledo to Belvidere, Ill.

Despite the shifting of Ram Heavy Duty production from Mexico, the Saltillo Truck Assembly Plant there will continue to operate. The company said that plant will be repurposed to build future commercial vehicles for global distribution.

The company said it has invested $10 billion in its U.S. manufacturing operations since June 2009.

Macomb County Executive Mark Hackel called the latest invesment a great announcement, saying "we’re extremely grateful for FCA and Sergio making that commitment. ... I can't wait to give him a big hug at the auto show."

Hackel noted the significance of bringing more Ram truck production to the county, which has seen substantial investment from automakers and suppliers in recent years.

"This has become somewhat of a Ram country here in Macomb County if you think about it because this is where it's being built ... and they're bringing them up from Mexico," Hackel said.

Brian Rothenberg, a spokesman for the UAW, offered cautious praise, explaining that the union had just been made aware of the announcement.

"While the news is positive, the UAW is reviewing the details," Rothenberg said, noting union officials would likely have more to say later.

The move is a boost for President Donald Trump and congressional Republicans, who argued that their tax bill would encourage investment in the U.S.

In addition, Trump scolded automakers last year for building vehicles in Mexico to little effect — auto imports from Mexico to the U.S. hit a record level last year. In talks about revising the North American Free Trade Agreement, Trump's administration has proposed a requirement that 50% of all auto parts or vehicles assembled in Mexico start in the U.S., and fears have been renewed that the trade deal is imperiled.

Thursday's announcement was the second major auto factory news in as many days. On Wednesday, Toyota and Mazda announced they would build a $1.6-billion, 4,000-worker plant in Alabama.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/chrysler/2018/01/11/fiat-chrysler-in vesting-billion-dollars-warren-truck/1026517001/


nebish - 1/14/2018 at 12:04 AM

Based off of casual observations I make, the Ram truck line had been made in two US plants prior to the Great Recession and the Fiat - Chrysler shotgun marriage. After that they closed the Missouri plant and moved that production to Mexico, all the 2500 and 3500 3/4 and 1 ton trucks were made there and only the 1500 1/2 ton trucks were made in the US. Now it sounds like the entire Ram line will be assembled here.

[Edited on 1/14/2018 by nebish]


nebish - 1/19/2018 at 04:41 AM

NAFTA renegotiations resume with a 6th meeting in Canada next week.

Thom Hartmann had a segment on his show today with a representative from Global Trade Watch on where things stand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v6nA3--MDc&feature=youtu.be



[Edited on 1/19/2018 by nebish]


nebish - 1/24/2018 at 03:08 AM

Whirlpool made formal complaints for years against Samsung and LG on kitchen and laundry appliances.

This past fall the International Trade Commission ruled in their favor on the laundry appliances:

quote:
The case, brought by U.S. appliance giant Whirlpool Corp (WHR.N), sought “global safeguard” restrictions to stop South Korean rivals Samsung Electronics Co Ltd (005930.KS) and LG Electronics Inc (066570.KS) from flooding the U.S. market with cheaper washers.

The commission, voting 4-0 in favor of a finding that the large number of imports was hurting domestic manufacturers, will recommend remedies by Dec. 4 to President Donald Trump, who is expected to make a final decision by early next year.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-whirlpool/panel-finds-u-s-wash ing-machine-makers-hurt-by-lg-samsung-imports-idUSKBN1CA1W4



Some history and illustration of what companies will do to avoid tariffs being levied on their goods:

quote:
But Whirlpool contended the companies have made washers in lower-cost countries, using cheaper labor and parts to undercut their big American competitor. When Whirlpool complained that the companies were doing this with machines made in Korea and Mexico, the U.S. Commerce Department investigated and agreed. It said new imports from those countries would face extra fees.

The companies then shifted production to China. They said they did so for legitimate business reasons. But Whirlpool and, subsequently, the Commerce Department said they did so at least partly to avoid the penalties from the case involving Mexico and Korea. New penalties were assigned.

Yet that still didn't stop the companies, which shifted production again, this time to Vietnam and Thailand, Whirlpool and Ohio lawmakers including U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown and Rob Portman said. Brown accused the companies of playing a version of the arcade game Whack-a-Mole, in which the target burrows underground and reemerges someplace else each time it is hit.

Whirlpool and the senators said the only solution left was to penalize the companies, and provide Whirlpool and its workers relief, by assessing a broad set of penalties not tied to a specific country.

Samsung accused of shell game that harms Ohio workers

Samsung accused of shell game that harms Ohio workers

Ordered to pay trade-law penalties on China-made washing machines, Samsung might be moving production to other countries instead.

Monday's decision is the culmination of that request, which started with an investigation and wound up with Trump agreeing with the recommendations of Trade Ambassador Robert Lighthizer, who said the domestic industry deserves protection in light of a surge of imports that started in 2012. The trade representative and his agency made that recommendation last fall but it was not clear if Trump would ultimately agree.
http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2018/01/in_major_victory_for_whir lpool.html



See, these companies don't want to just concede and pay the tariff because then that makes them less competitive with domestic producers. They want, and in some cases, need that price advantage in their favor to garner market share and sales which hurts the domestic producers. So the foreign producers will do what they can to avoid the penalties and the higher costs.

The remedies recommended by ITC where a quota up to 1.2 million units imported with a tariff ranging from 0-20% and 50% on anything beyond 1.2 million.

Whirlpool did not feel this went far enough and neither did Ohio Senators Rob Portman or Sherrod Brown, both urged for a 50% tariff on all imported units.

The Trump Administration went with the ITC recommendation rather than a flat 50% tariff on all units.

quote:
The three years of trade restrictions on washing machines and parts will be set via a so-called tariff-rate quota, which allows imports of a certain number of fully assembled machines under a 20 percent tariff. Imports beyond the quota will be subject to a much higher 50 percent tariff the first year. The remedy stops short of Whirlpool’s petition for a flat 50 percent tariff on imported machines made by rivals Samsung and LG.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/22/trump-imports-trade-303859



The point may be moot in the near future. Both LG and Samsung are in the final stages of building production facilities in South Carolina and Tennessee. If only we could've got this trade penalty sooner maybe Samsung and LG would've located production here first before bouncing around to all the low labor countries. But that is part of the gig, they needed that low labor to build up their margins and profits and get the brand recognition strong enough with supporting sales to make such an investment in the US, and at what cost? Surely US manufacturers lost sales and jobs in that time span while the likes of Samsung and LG took away sales and enjoyed larger margins and competitive advantages.

Sell it here, build it here!


nebish - 1/24/2018 at 03:35 AM

There were also trade penalties to be levied against imported solar panels based off of ITC findings.

There are solar panels made in the USA, but unlike large appliances sold here, or some other product or raw material, most of that is imported. The lionshare of production and what is sold in the US is made in East Asia. This is going to be an incredibly difficult area for the US to be competitive, even with the tariff.

Companies who produce in the US:

quote:
What are the Top Companies Making Solar Panels in the U.S.?

Though the large majority of solar manufacturers import their equipment from southeast asia (even in the case of leading American solar companies like SunPower), there is a short list of American solar companies that actually make their solar panels here in the United States.

Here is the breakdown of U.S. solar companies:

Itek Energy
Heliene
Solaria
Mission Solar
SunSpark
SolarWorld Americas
Suniva
Seraphim
Solartech

Missing from the above list are Tesla and Panasonic who each began manufacturing U.S. solar panels in late 2017. The two companies are now producing Tesla’s new solar roof product and low profile solar panels at its large manufacturing plant in Buffalo, known as the Gigafactory.


quote:
The Top 10 List of Solar Panel Manufacturers (Global)

A big part of calculating solar panel quality is understanding the metrics and factors that determine it such as module efficiency and performance. Check out this solar panel analysis to better understand significant characteristics that will impact your solar panel performance. Also notable is the fact that not every company that made this list has a significant share of the US residential solar power market.
Table: Top Solar Panel Manufacturers in 2018 – Global ranking by shipment volume

2017 - Rank -Company Headquarters
1 -JinkoSolar -China
2 - Trina Solar -China
3 - Canadian Solar -Canada
4 -JA Solar -China
5 -Hanwha Q CELLS - South Korea
6 -GCL-SI -Hong Kong
7 -LONGi Solar - China
8 -Risen Energy - China
9 -Shunfeng -China
10 -Yingli Green - China


Most of the US jobs in the solar segment are in sales and installation rather than manufacturing. And the two companies who petitioned for the import penalties are not US companies, they just assemble in the US and compete with imported panels.

If the prices for solar panels increases, will it hurt installation jobs and will this be a net job loser? There are those who say it will. It depends, does the consumer want solar panels or not? If the answer is yes, they will continue to buy them because in the long-run they will still save on electric bills, it just means that recoup time may be longer now. But the recoup will still occur, if it is purely a financial decision. Then there is the ethical side, which I'm sure many progressives believe in the appeal of renewable and green energy sources - if that is one's belief, to an extent, the price of the product is only a hurdle and the reason to go solar makes it all worth it big picture.

But the real problem is that the consumer hasn't had to bear the full cost of the solar panel purchase and install because of tax breaks that were created to incentivize them. So they have been insulated from the actual cost and now that the US tries to make the playing field level, the fear is the consumer will protest more? There should've been no subsidy for solar in the first place.

In this case I actually do not think the tariff will have much positive impact on the domestic solar panel industry some hope and I don't think it will have much of a negative impact on the sales and install jobs some fear. I tend to think the trajectory is going that direction for more solar and isn't likely to slow much. But if you have your choice, why not buy panels assembled in the USA?

quote:

Trump imposes 30 percent tariff on solar panel imports

The new tariff falls to 25 percent after a year, and then 20 percent and 15 percent each year after, before phasing out entirely. The first 2.5 gigawatts of imports each year are exempt.

Solar panels already are subject to significant tariffs when imported from China and Taiwan.

Suniva and SolarWorld Americas requested tariffs of 50 percent on imported panels last year, saying their operations were decimated by cheap imports. The International Trade Commission endorsed tariffs of up to 35 percent after it ruled that domestic manufacturers suffered "serious injury" from the imports, a finding required to impose tariffs under Section 201 of the Trade Act of 1974.

Most of the rest of the solar industry, including installers and companies that make related technology, oppose the tariffs, saying they would threaten tens of thousands of jobs.

http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/370171-trump-imposes-30-tariff s-on-solar-panel-imports


nebish - 1/24/2018 at 03:42 AM

Day 1 of NAFTA renegotiate part 6 started today
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-nafta/nafta-negotiators-open-key-r ound-of-talks-amid-upbeat-signs-idUSKBN1FC242


nebish - 1/24/2018 at 06:17 PM

quote:
My wife has been finding lots of made in the USA women's clothes on this site:

https://gozon.com/


Came across this site as well for women's clothes, small operation, claim materials to be USA. Forwarded link to my wife, more excuses for her to buy new clothes!

https://www.kylawren.com/


nebish - 1/25/2018 at 04:43 AM

Day 2 of NAFTA round 6

https://ipolitics.ca/2018/01/24/nafta-notebook-wednesday-january-24-2018/


nebish - 1/31/2018 at 01:22 PM

Latest NAFTA talks conclude without much significant progress. Described as a step forward, but they are at a point in the process it is about time for a leap or withdrawal is a possibility (which by the way, both Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton said they would withdraw from NAFTA if it was unable to renegotiate during the 2008 campaign) - just to state this isn't exactly a moment of recklessness from the Trump Administration's desire to renegotiate or withdrawn.

quote:
Signs of Progress in Nafta Talks but Countries Remain Deeply Divided
Leer en español
By ANA SWANSONJAN. 29, 2018


MONTREAL — Discussions to revamp the North American Free Trade Agreement moved from stalemate to actual negotiation during the sixth round of talks that concluded on Monday, but a deal was still far from guaranteed as Mexico, Canada and the United States continue to squabble over how to reshape the 24-year-old pact.

Government officials and trade analysts described the mood around the talks as “cautiously optimistic” as Canada, in particular, joined Mexico in offering counterproposals to America’s requests for drastic changes, an outcome that seemed likely to dissuade the United States from imminent withdrawal.

Yet more than six months into the talks, a conclusion still appeared elusive. And tensions between the countries grew as the United States criticized Canada’s suggested changes to the pact on areas including automobile manufacturing and investment.

Robert Lighthizer, the United States trade representative, suggested that Canada had been responsible for the stalled talks. He said discussions were now progressing as the nation recognized the need to protect its trading relationships, though he added that talks were not moving fast enough.

“The reality is some of the participants weren’t willing to talk about anything,” Mr. Lighthizer said in remarks to the media. “Now, they’re starting to realize that we have to begin to talk. I think that’s a reason for guarded optimism. But you know, I’m never really very optimistic,” he added.

Officials from Canada and Mexico sounded more positive about the prospects for a deal. Ildefonso Guajardo Villarreal, the Mexican economic secretary, said that the three countries were at “a better moment in this negotiation process,” and that progress made so far had put the countries “on the right track to create landing zones to conclude the negotiation soon.”

Chrystia Freeland, the Canadian foreign minister, said that Canada had come to the table “with creative ideas we believed could move us forward.” She also emphasized the benefits of trade with Canada for the United States.

The Nafta pact, negotiated by President George H.W. Bush and signed into law by President Bill Clinton, spurred trade between the three countries by reducing Mexico’s high tariffs on goods from Canada and the United States. But, as President Trump has often highlighted, it also incentivized companies to shift labor-intensive manufacturing to Mexico.

Mr. Trump has repeatedly threatened to walk away from the trade pact if it cannot be renegotiated in the United States’ favor, a position that has put him at odds with many in the business community and Congress, who see trade with Mexico and Canada as integral to industries as varied as manufacturing, agriculture and energy. The auto industry, in particular, has arranged its North American supply chains around the deal’s terms.

With talks now reaching into their seventh month, negotiators are about to butt up against several political events that could make an agreement even more difficult, including the Mexican general election on July 1.

The election could usher in a leftist political party that may be less willing to make concessions. The front-runner, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, has advocated a more combative approach to the Trump administration.

“Doing this before the Mexican election is critical, because you don’t know who is going to be leading afterward,” said Representative Will Hurd, a Texas Republican who attended the talks.

The negotiations have faced a series of collapsing deadlines. Last year, officials insisted that the deal must be largely concluded by the end of 2017. Then in October, they decided to extend the talks into the first quarter of 2018, with March widely cited as a deadline.

Negotiators did not specify a new target for concluding the talks. In remarks on Monday, Ms. Freeland said that Canada looked forward to continuing its work at the next round in Mexico City in late February, and in Washington in April.

Officials from all three countries say they would rather have a good deal than a rushed one. But the delay is not without risks — some trade analysts fear that an extended process could cause Mr. Trump to lose patience, and spur an American withdrawal.

Midterm elections in the United States on Nov. 6 could also complicate the deal. The administration will need a simple majority in both the House and Senate to approve their revised trade agreement, which could prove difficult if Democrats win control of either chamber.

Mr. Lighthizer reiterated in his remarks on Monday that he hoped to win the support of some Democratic lawmakers. That may hinge on the administration’s efforts to improve labor standards. Last Tuesday, more than 180 Democrats and one Republican lawmaker sent a letter to Mr. Lighthizer urging the administration to propose stronger measures to improve Mexican labor conditions.

Representative Sander Levin, a Michigan Democrat and one of the signatories, said the Trump administration’s current labor proposals just “mask maintaining the status quo.” Mr. Levin said “the traditional view of these issues is that they’ll work out in the wash, but workers have been taking a bath.”

Negotiators said they reached agreement on a Nafta chapter focusing on anti-corruption, and were nearing completion on several other sections. But the ideas Canada brought forward to counter the Trump administration’s proposals were proving a source of contention.

The United States has proposed significantly raising the so-called rules of origin, which govern how much of a car needs to be manufactured within the free-trade area to be exempt from tariffs.

The Canadians last week discussed changing the way the figures were calculated to include design, investment and parts of an automobile like high-tech software and sensors that are common in cars today but not measured under Nafta.

The change is likely to raise the proportion of a car’s value produced by the United States, because many high-tech industries are centered there. But it also appeared unlikely to address Mr. Trump’s primary reason for renegotiating Nafta: strengthening American manufacturing.

Mr. Lighthizer criticized the idea, saying that it “may actually lead to less regional content than we have now” and said “this is the opposite of what we’re trying to do.”

Mr. Lighthizer also used his remarks to criticize a recent case Canada brought to the World Trade Organization, in which it claimed that the United States system for policing dumping and subsidies was unfair. “It is imprudent, and my suspicion is, spiteful,” he told reporters.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/29/us/politics/nafta-talks-conclude-in-mont real-with-signs-of-progress-and-risk.html?mtrref=www.google.com


nebish - 2/25/2018 at 05:46 PM

I went to the Cleveland Auto Show this weekend. Very disappointed to see Buick had three of the Envision in their display all of which were assembled in China for the US market.



nebish - 3/2/2018 at 02:11 PM

Lots of buzz, most of it negative, about import tariffs on steel and aluminum. Reporting of these kinds of things are usually negative because, 1) most people have been taught and subscribe to traditional economic theory supporting free markets and opposing trade restrictions, 2) broader corporate interests with most Republicans and some Democrats lead them to oppose trade restrictions for specific companies and sectors, 3) when it is Trump everything he does or wants to do is always reported negatively.

I heard some very confused and uninformed news commentators and political guests speak on the subject in TV and radio news.

One thing that people need to understand is that China doesn't directly import as much to the US as a % of our overall foreign sourced steel, they still drive the over-capacity and dumping issues in the US and globally. The US has already imposed 24 anti-dumping and contervailing duties on Chinese steel mill products. The Chinese have seeked to evade these restrictions and duties by shipping their products to secondary countries for minor finishing procedures which allows their steel to then be imported into the US without restrictions and fees. Bush and Obama both filed complaints and enacted tariffs and restrictions on foreign steel products during their administrations. In fact Obama again filed a complaint in January of 2017. So this is a long on-going issue, not a new one that Trump has just created. The decision Trump has announced is the result of Commerce Department investigation from April 2017 and the results of the report were released February 16th. The administration has 90 days to take action. When the executive branch acts, they are fully within their authority and responsibility to do so.

While official actions have not been announced, Trump did say rather informally it would be 25% of steel and 10% on aluminum imports across the board.

This is very good policy. The steel industry in the US is a mixture of domestic and foreign owned companies; the largest being US owned Nucor, US Steel Corp, Steel Dynamics and AK Steel plus foreign owned ArcelorMittal USA and Gerdau North America.

As of December 2017, the United States was the world's largest steel importer - we use alot of steel and more than we can produce. However, we do have the existing capacity and ability here to produce more and employ more. Imports have grown 219% from 2009. The steel industry has historically been and will continue to be a vital industry in the US and it is important to protect their survival and foster future growth.

There is fear that higher material costs will hurt other industries and sectors that rely on steel and aluminum and then those higher costs get passed along. Remember the goal of the import tariffs is to spur more production here at US plants with US workers who both contribute to the local economies and tax bases. So these potential higher costs do not take place in a vacuum, there is an economic benefit to it as well. People say, remember Smoot-Hawley, we'll have inflation, we'll have a recession, we'll have a depression, it will start a trade war...smoot-hawley has been mischaracterized for a century and we are already in a trade war, and we are losing.

[Edited on 3/2/2018 by nebish]


Bhawk - 3/2/2018 at 07:08 PM

quote:
Remember the goal of the import tariffs is to spur more production here at US plants with US workers who both contribute to the local economies and tax bases.


For a second, I'll grant you every other point you made.

But the one I quote above...exactly when and where does that...start...ever?


nebish - 3/3/2018 at 01:51 PM

quote:
quote:
Remember the goal of the import tariffs is to spur more production here at US plants with US workers who both contribute to the local economies and tax bases.


For a second, I'll grant you every other point you made.

But the one I quote above...exactly when and where does that...start...ever?


US steel capacity utilization has declined from 87% in 1998 to 81.4% in 2008 to 69.4% in 2016. The most recent 6 year period 2011-2016 average utilization was 74%. 80% is needed to sustain the industry.

So by putting imported steel at a competitive disadvantage, domestically produced steel demand can rise along with their production capacity. More output by the domestic mills will either lead to more employment or more hours worked by existing workers, or a combination. In either event more workers earning benefits or static number of workers earning more benefits creates a larger tax base for state and federal income withholding taxes for anything from local schools to social security. And with more people employed, it reduces the stress on social safety net programs those individuals may've been using. And with more money in pay checks it finds it's way into the local economies where they reside. More sales and profits by the corporations leads to more tax dollars for local municipalities, states and federal government coffers.


nebish - 3/3/2018 at 01:57 PM

Here is the commerce department report and further detailed reporting links contained within:

https://www.commerce.gov/news/press-releases/2018/02/secretary-ross-release s-steel-and-aluminum-232-reports-coordination

Additional reading, I believe 3rd qrt 2017 published in December is the most recent report available:
https://www.trade.gov/steel/countries/pdfs/imports-us.pdf

How China uses third-party countries for relabeling origination
http://www.americanmanufacturing.org/blog/entry/commerce-goes-after-third-c ountry-steel-imports-originating-in-china


nebish - 3/3/2018 at 02:21 PM

Something else about the "when and where" does something start related to tariffs and getting more jobs here out of it, take a look at the LG and Samsung laundry appliance situation. Not the actual tariff, not what the ITC ruled or what the Trump administration ruled.

Whirlpool filed formal complaints against LG and Samsung way back in 2011. There were years of hearings and investigations by groups like the WTO and ITC along with US Dept of Commerce. Internal planning and strategy of the Korean brands LG and Samsung can't fully be known. LG execs say it was a 6 year process (hmmm coincidence, trade complaint filed 2011 + 6 years later = 2017 announcement). In early 2017 LG announced plans to built a plant in Tennessee. In June 2017 Samsung announced their plans for the South Carolina plant. This will enable them to make their products here rather bearing the cost of an import tax on machines made in Mexico or South Korea and employ American workers in the process.

That is how it is supposed to work. We need more things like that to happen and trade barriers can be a means to that end.


Bhawk - 3/4/2018 at 05:00 PM

Time will tell.


Sang - 3/4/2018 at 06:51 PM

The problem is it also causes issues like this:

Electrolux puts $250 million US investment on hold over Trump's tariff hike

Sweden's Electrolux said it would delay a planned $250 million investment in Tennessee, after President Donald Trump announced tariffs on imported aluminum and steel.

Trump said the duties — 25 percent on steel imports and 10 percent on aluminum — would be formally announced next week.

The company is waiting to see the final details of the U.S. plans before making a final decision.


nebish - 3/4/2018 at 08:48 PM

quote:
The problem is it also causes issues like this:

Electrolux puts $250 million US investment on hold over Trump's tariff hike

Sweden's Electrolux said it would delay a planned $250 million investment in Tennessee, after President Donald Trump announced tariffs on imported aluminum and steel.

Trump said the duties — 25 percent on steel imports and 10 percent on aluminum — would be formally announced next week.

The company is waiting to see the final details of the U.S. plans before making a final decision.


Now that is an interesting decision because that investment was to modernize their existing plant not about creating new jobs or expanding their current US assembly footprint. So they may be hindering their own competitiveness and efficiency in doing this. But if they want to continue to build in the plant without updates that makes them better that is their choice. And if we put tariffs on units they import I think they would see fit to invest more in the US rather than somewhere else. Assuming this market is still somewhere they want to sell their products, and that answer is would be a yes. We say jump, they jump, or they can try offsetting those lost sales somewhere else, good luck. Meanwhile we'll just buy other brands.


nebish - 3/5/2018 at 02:31 PM

As the push for higher US content in Mexican and Canadian built autos, the head of the US team has to unexpectedly leave NAFTA talks in Mexico City to meet with the auto companies. Jesus. Don't do what they want, that is how we got these **** ty deals, by doing what the corporations want. You have what Mexico wants, you have what Canada wants, and you have what US and multinational corporations want. How about what the US workers want? That is the whole point of trying to renegotiate in the first place!

quote:
Technical discussions on auto content at the latest round of talks to rework the North American Free Trade Agreement were disrupted this week by the sudden departure of the head of the U.S. team for that issue, Jason Bernstein.

The three sides aimed to hold talks as soon as possible to continue addressing a U.S. proposal to raise the amount of North American content used under NAFTA, Smith said. The U.S. demand has been a major sticking point at the talks.

“It’s going to restart soon, not in this round, but we hope that there is a meeting at technical level next week to continue the talks,” Smith told reporters.

Officials said Bernstein returned to the United States for technical consultations with the auto industry, and Smith told reporters he had not returned to the talks in Mexico City.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-nafta-autos-meeting/nafta-talks-on -autos-eyed-for-next-week-mexico-negotiator-idUSKCN1GF0SY



This was supposed to be the final meeting with a revised agreement on the table by the end of this month. Seems like negotiations will need to be extended. Read they have only agreed on 5 of 30 "chapters" up for discussion.

The new tariff on steel and aluminum can be a bargaining chip, a concession the US can use in order to get something else in return.


nebish - 3/5/2018 at 02:41 PM

Wilbur Ross made some rounds to media outlets last week, where he said:

“There’s about one ton of steel in a car, the price of a ton of steel is $700 or so, so 25 percent on that would be one half of 1 percent price increase on a typical $35,000 car. So it’s no big deal.” = $175 price increase.

And this is causing angst?


nebish - 3/7/2018 at 12:46 AM

Oh, everyone is getting fired up on this "trade war". For some 40 years US corporations and foreign corporations alike have benefited from cheaper foreign labor and production costs for their products sold to the American consumer. Why are US wages stagnant? Blame trade agreements that serve the interests of international globalists and their influence in our government.

Cohen is gone. Good. Promote Navarro.

Economists view America simply as a market. We aren't just a market, we are a country who's strength and prosperity has suffered as a result of global economic theory. Time to turn the tables.


nebish - 3/7/2018 at 01:27 AM

Assuming Navarro does take on a larger role, here is a good piece recent piece on him:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2018/02/27/how-peter-nava rro-got-his-groove-back/?utm_term=.8af8cc33b2a4


StratDal - 3/7/2018 at 02:04 PM

quote:
The problem is it also causes issues like this:

Electrolux puts $250 million US investment on hold over Trump's tariff hike

Sweden's Electrolux said it would delay a planned $250 million investment in Tennessee, after President Donald Trump announced tariffs on imported aluminum and steel.

Trump said the duties — 25 percent on steel imports and 10 percent on aluminum — would be formally announced next week.

The company is waiting to see the final details of the U.S. plans before making a final decision.


It will be interesting to see what impact the tariff will have on the legislation to improve the infrastructure. My guess it will make the needed materials more expensive.


nebish - 3/7/2018 at 05:01 PM

quote:
It will be interesting to see what impact the tariff will have on the legislation to improve the infrastructure. My guess it will make the needed materials more expensive.


If we are building the material for the infrastructure we need, it is a win-win. Why give some other country the jobs for the things we need? I'd rather have more people working and making good wages in my state and your state for our country.

GE just released a statement saying the potential input cost for them would be "minimal".

So much fear mongering is out there.

Let's circle back to Electrolux. They closed a plant in Greenville Michigan in 2006 and built a brand new plant in Juarez Mexico. Somebody making $20 an hour in Michigan, something you can support your family on, save and afford the things one needs, poof, gone, lost their job. Why? Did Electrolux want to be closer to the market in Mexico, did it make some logistical sense? No, they sell very few appliances in Mexico and Central America. Electrolux closed the plant and moved production to Mexico because it made financial sense and free trade with Mexico allowed them to do it where they could export appliances into the US for free. Based off of 2017 figures, over 32% of their sales are in the USA. No company can survive with losing 32% of their global sales. So what if we said "the only way you can sell your appliances in the USA is you have to build them here or you will be subject to tariffs on your imports". They would do what is necessary to sell to the American consumer and be competitive with their counterparts in the industry because we are an important market for them. It is our government's role to act in the best interest of our nation, not in what the interest of what Electrolux wants or any other multinational company and their bottom line.

It has taken decades to get where we are now and it isn't going to change in a few months or several years. Everyone is so entrenched with free trade goggles on, it is like sacrilege to do anything contrary. Well I don't like where free trade has taken us. Do you? That was a driving factor in my vote for Bernie Sanders and it was a driving factor in my vote for Donald Trump. Only political outsiders speak loudly on the damage free trade has meant for our country and our workers. I'm not surprised so many controlled by corporate interests and global economic theory act in such a way. But I am surprised that more regular people aren't voicing support. Well, actually they did, in part with their votes for Sanders and Trump in 2016. The message on trade they delivered is what we needed to hear and now we need action. And what do we get instead? Resistance. How can anything change, when everyone fights change.

I didn't vote for status quo, don't give me status quo.


nebish - 3/8/2018 at 04:50 AM

Jesus Christ, Don Lemon just literally said "what if a can of coke costs $3 under this plan". An aluminum can costs .10-.11 cents each. If a can was made entirely from imported aluminum it would be 10% higher cost with the tariff. So now it costs 11-12.1 cents each. Well, that's it, we might as well sign our death warrant on that one folks.

So those pennies add up for producers, and the Beer Institute says it will "cost" $347 million. The beer industry is about a $108 billion dollar market, that $347mill makes what, under a half one %. And somehow the beer institute says 20,300 workers would lose their jobs because of this. Who takes these kinds of comments seriously? The price of beer isn't going up 10%. Production costs aren't going up 10%. One input component of the production process is going to be subject to higher prices and it is a minimal amount.

These corporations were just given windfall tax breaks and now they stand to lose some small portion of that gain with potentially higher input costs and we see them act like a spoiled child who throws a temper tantrum when they don't always get their way.

Goldman Sachs....How is GM and Ford going to lose a billion dollars each, when the steel component of a $30,000 car could increase less than $200? Are they eating all of it because they are nice guys and want to make less profit? It gets passed along, GM and Ford don't "lose it" any increase gets rolled into the car loan and $200 on a $30,000 buy ain't **** in the big picture of such an asset purchase. And if GM and Ford increase their purchase of domestic steel as that added capacity comes online they avoid any tax on imported steel. The more steel we produce the more competitively priced it becomes as plants get more efficient.

These assumptions are all wrong. What they are saying isn't just hyperbole, it is outright blatant lies.


nebish - 3/28/2018 at 02:27 AM

Good resource for data on tires:

https://www.utires.com/articles/tires-made-usa-american-foreign-brands/


nebish - 3/29/2018 at 03:09 AM

Revisions to the US-Korea Free Trade Agreement (KORUS FTA):
https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/fact-sheets/2018/marc h/new-us-trade-policy-and-national

quote:
New U.S. Trade Policy and National Security Outcomes with the Republic of Korea

“The improved KORUS agreement reflects the President’s leadership in delivering more reciprocal trade outcomes benefiting U.S. workers, exporters, and businesses. The United States and Korea have strengthened an important economic relationship by agreeing to substantial improvements to KORUS that will help rebalance our trade, reduce our trade deficit, and expand U.S. export opportunities.” – U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer

President Trump continues to fulfill one of his key promises to the American people: to secure free, fair and reciprocal trade deals for the American worker.

The Republic of Korea is an important ally and key trading partner. Improving KORUS by rebalancing our trade and reducing the trade deficit will strengthen our national security relationship.

Since the United States – Korea Free Trade Agreement (KORUS) went into effect in 2012, the U.S. trade deficit in goods with Korea increased by over 73 percent from $13.2 billion to $22.9 billion (2017), while the overall deficit increased by 70 percent from $6.3 billion to $10.7 billion (2017).

Through negotiations to improve KORUS, the U.S. Trade Representative has secured changes that will reduce the trade deficit and ensure that KORUS is a good deal for U.S. workers and businesses.

PROCESS FOR KORUS AMENDMENTS AND MODIFICATIONS

As directed by the President and with authority provided under the terms of KORUS, the U.S. Trade Representative has worked to resolve issues through the Joint Committee process under the Agreement.

In July 2017, Ambassador Lighthizer initiated trade discussions with Korea, leading to special sessions of the KORUS Joint Committee in 2017 and further negotiations for KORUS amendments and modifications in 2018.

Once completed, the amendments and modifications to KORUS will undergo the United States’ and Korea’s respective domestic review procedures. For the United States, modifications to the U.S. tariff schedule will undergo consultation and layover procedures provided under the implementing act for the KORUS Agreement, which include a 60-day consultation period with Congress.

2. KEY NEW KORUS FTA OUTCOMES

In these discussions, the United States achieved steps to improve the large trade deficit in industrial goods and to address KORUS implementation concerns that have hindered U.S. export growth.

U.S. Truck Tariffs: Korea will extend the phase out of the 25% U.S. tariff on trucks until 2041, or a total of 30 years following the implementation of the KORUS FTA in 2012. (currently scheduled to phase out by 2021).

Growing U.S. Auto Exports: Exports of U.S. motor vehicles to Korea will be improved through the following steps:

Greater Access for U.S. Exports: Korea will double the number of U.S. automobile exports, to 50,000 cars per manufacturer per year, that can meet U.S. safety standards (in lieu of Korean standards) and enter the Korean market without further modification.

Harmonization of Testing Requirements: U.S. gasoline engine vehicle exports will be able to show compliance with Korea’s emission standards using the same tests they conduct to show compliance with U.S. regulations, without additional or duplicative testing for the Korean market.

Recognition of U.S. Standards for Auto Parts: Korea will recognize U.S. standards for auto parts necessary to service U.S. vehicles, and reduce labeling burdens for parts.

Improvements to CAFE Standards: Korea will expand the amount of “eco-credits” available to help meet fuel economy and greenhouse gas requirements under the regulations currently in force, while also ensuring that fuel economy targets in future regulations will be set taking U.S. regulations into account and will continue to include more lenient targets for small volume manufacturers.

Customs Improvement: Korea will address long-standing concerns with onerous and costly verification procedures through agreement on principles for conducting verification of origin of exports under KORUS and establish a working group to monitor and address future issues that arise.

Pharmaceutical Reimbursements: Within 2018, Korea will amend its Premium Pricing Policy for Global Innovative Drugs to make it consistent with Korea’s commitments under KORUS to ensure non-discriminatory and fair treatment for U.S. pharmaceutical exports.

3. CURRENCY AGREEMENT

The U.S. Department of the Treasury is leading discussions on currency with Korea’s Ministry of Strategy and Finance.

An agreement (memorandum of understanding) is being finalized on robust provisions to prohibit competitive devaluation and exchange rate manipulation in order to promote a level playing field for trade and investment. Strong commitments on transparency and accountability are included in the provisions.

4. OUTCOMES FOR SECTION 232 EXEMPTION FOR KOREA

The President’s action under Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962, as amended, is designed to protect U.S. national security given the massive and persistent global excess capacity for steel and aluminum and the threatened impairment of U.S. national security from imports of such products.

As the President’s proclamations state, the United States is willing to work with any country with which we have a security relationship to find alternative ways to address the threatened impairment of the national security caused by imports of steel and aluminum. The United States has a strong and enduring security relationship with Korea.

U.S. negotiations with Korea have resulted in a satisfactory alternative for addressing U.S. national security concerns with respect to steel imports.

Korean imports of steel products into the United States will be subject to a product-specific quota equivalent to 70% of the average annual import volume of such products during the period of 2015-17. This will result in a significant reduction in Korean steel shipments to the United States.




Korean news sources if you feel so inclined:
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/biz/2018/03/367_246213.html
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/biz/2018/03/367_246238.html


nebish - 3/29/2018 at 03:24 AM

The key outcomes on autos may not appear to be significant to anyone not familiar with how South Korea discriminates against imported autos (both European and US) through nontariff barriers. Ford VP of International Government Affairs testified before the Senate and detailed the barriers US auto companies faced even after the 2012 KORUS was enacted. Here is the link:
https://www.finance.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Ford%20Testimony%20for%20U%20S %20%20Senate%20Hearing%20on%20KORUS.pdf

So this revision addresses some of those concerns.

The large tariff on Korean light/mid-sized trucks may appear to be a nonissue. The fact that no truck is currently imported from Korea doesn't mean that Korean auto companies were not only considering it, the Hydunai Santa Cruz had been greenlighted for the US market (imported). It is difficult for trucks like the Dodge Dakota, Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon and the 2019 Ford Ranger to be viable and profitable as evidenced by their discontinuation and in some cases reemergence. Keeping the punitively high tariff in effect until 2041 (instead of 2021 from the prior agreement) gives them more breathing room (as it does for Japanese autos). News reports have Hyundai's Korean labor union is rather upset at this change. Hyundai could build this truck here however with US labor if they so chose.

Additionally, South Korea had not named a currency manipulator, however they have been on the watch-list. Further transparency on this issue will allow the US to file any potential grievances if necessary in the future.

With US beef and pork exporters viewing South Korea as a critical market, no changes were made from prior KORUS FTA. The US is the #1 supplier for beef in S Korea and #2 in pork. S Korean farmers have been known to protest over US beef imports. While no new access or favorable changes were made to US Ag, they did not lose any ground either.

Perhaps most importantly related to recent news is the aluminum and steel tariff issue. South Korean steel will be capped at 70% tons of average and face a tariff schedule after that. The aluminum tariff will remain in effect. This is concerning as Chinese steel has been shipped via S Korea in order to avoid one of the many existing direct tariffs on Chinese steel. While this may limit some of what China can dump in the US via S Korea, it certainly doesn't stop it. A tariff is better than a quota. But a quota/cap is better than nothing and more acceptable to corporations and trading partners - so I suppose it is a compromise. And I'm unsure the US would've gotten the concessions in the auto category without a concession of our own on steel. Interesting that while this idea had been floated last year, the tariffs on aluminum and steel, that the announcement came towards the end of the KORUS renegotiation. A wild card perhaps. Atleast we got something. I just hope it doesn't undermine the what the commerce department was trying to do in curtailing Chinese overcapacity and dumping.


2112 - 4/4/2018 at 09:27 AM

Looks like we have a good old fashioned trade war going on. China hitting back at the US where it will hurt the most, agricultural goods, airplanes, cars. Not sure who is going to win this trade war, but investors don't seem to like it. I'm guessing American workers won't be benefiting as much as the president thinks as well.


nebish - 4/4/2018 at 12:11 PM

quote:
Looks like we have a good old fashioned trade war going on. China hitting back at the US where it will hurt the most, agricultural goods, airplanes, cars. Not sure who is going to win this trade war, but investors don't seem to like it. I'm guessing American workers won't be benefiting as much as the president thinks as well.


I laughed a little this morning because China is the bad actor here. They are the one that steals intellectual property. We punish them for it and then they want to punish us back. We are the ones retaliating to their action first.

This seems like it is bound for either a WTO ruling or some new US-China trade negotiations.

Here is something interesting, deficit in traded goods with China since 1985. I know it is goods only, we carry a small surplus in services, about $38 billion in 2016. The deficit in goods by contrast was $347 billion. Take a look: https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html

1985 was a long time ago, but we essentially had balanced trade with China, a mere 6 million dollar deficit. In 1995 the deficit had grown to $33.8 billion with exports only growing by 3x, imports grew by 12x. Ten years later in 2005 the deficit stood at $202 billion, 2015 $367 billion deficit. And you look at the growth rate that our exports from 1985 to current: $3.8 billion to 2017 $130,369 billion exports compared to their imports growing from 1985's $3.8 billion to 2017 $505,597 billion.

Markets do what markets will do. They like free flow of capital, free flow of labor, free flow of goods and services. They do not like disruptions and they do not like the unknown. Certainly we shouldn't have investors set our trade agenda. At the very least, we have an administration who is taking on these trade abuses and theft. Other countries are not playing by the rules on trade and commerce. So what do we do? Just roll over like we have for decades? That only leads to more of the behavior as it essentially condones it. Sure China, violate our patents, we won't do anything about it.

[Edited on 4/4/2018 by nebish]


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