dzobo
Peach Master   Karma: Posts: 702 (702 all sites) Registered: 3/19/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/21/2009 at 01:42 AM |
quote:
I'm struggling with Little Wing. To me, the main, "soaring" guitar part sounds like Duane, but for some reason I would think that EC would want to take that part for himself.
what do you think?
I actually asked the very same question in this forum. And it showed up an additional time also. Once again it was Peter Nelson who provided a very detailed follow-up. SR, your ears are definitely tuned correctly on this one. 
http://www.allmanbrothersband.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=30598#pid
http://www.allmanbrothersband.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=73453#pid
[Edited on 10/21/2009 by dzobo] ____________________
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.
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PeachNutt
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posted on 10/21/2009 at 09:30 AM |
Keep On Growing: and it does.....
i listened to my original vinyl copy (clicks, pops & all) last night (not the 180gram).......
i do think EC was powerfully influenced by Duane and this song does reflect that....
but I do think that all of the guitars are Strats, and there is no Duane on this song......
I would love to hear from EC or one of the engineers as to why Duanes name does appear on the original session tracking info (according to the Layla Deluxe Edition on tape track3 of this song)...... 
i also think any mistakes made in the personnel on each song would have been corrected a long time ago....
[Edited on 10/21/2009 by PeachNutt] ____________________
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dzobo
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posted on 10/21/2009 at 01:32 PM |
I think everyone pretty much agrees about the Strat stuff but that some of the playing is "Duane-ish". I guess the issue then is it possible that Duane picked up a Strat for "Keep on Growing"? I realize there is nothing in the Layla session's documentation to support it. Having a sense for Duane's playfulness I don't think that picking up a different guitar can be ruled out.
And that cross-out on the session sheet sure leaves a lot of unanswered questions. As Gary mentioned, would be nice to get some first hand accounts. Way back I did correspond with Chuck Kirkpatrick but he says that after 35-40 years it is very hard to recall specifics. Of course one way to resolve things is to have the session tape reviewed track by track to confirm instrument placement and to allow isolation and analysis of each guitar track. Anybody down in Miami willing to get over to the studio? 
[Edited on 10/21/2009 by dzobo] ____________________
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.
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Haisija
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posted on 10/21/2009 at 01:34 PM |
quote:
Having a sense for Duane's playfulness I don't think that picking up a different guitar can be ruled out.
Heck, would you play Clapton's strat too if he offered ?  ____________________
If we practice and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, soon the whole world will be blind and toothless. -Mahatma Gandhi.
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PeachNutt
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posted on 10/21/2009 at 05:39 PM |
| i think all of the strats on KOG are EC...but perhaps influenced by a rehearsal or take with Duane?....... ____________________
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stormyrider
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posted on 10/21/2009 at 05:40 PM |
thanks dzobo
PeterNelsons comments, and others, were interesting.
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tornadothrasher
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posted on 10/23/2009 at 02:23 PM |
"Wasn't that why he was brought in in the first place? Just askin...."
Touche, he definitely was. But the difference is that he was asked to do that on songs that he played on originally. Why is it that he wasn't asked to do the same on Bell-Bottom Blues or I Looked Away, two of the three songs that were already worked on prior to Duane? And, after this song, all of the other songs have parts that you can hear Duane 100% playing on the Gibson. This was the one song that he played Fender on? The one that was in the category of already worked on? It seems like too big of a coincidence to me.
I could be wrong though. But that's what I meant. Of course he was in a session player position and was asked for input but the song seemed to already be done and I feel like his input was definitely asked of him on the stuff he worked on from the beginning.
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Quilt
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posted on 10/23/2009 at 10:39 PM |
I know that Clapton was very impressed by Duane's playing and I would imagine that in some way it couldn't help but influence aspects of Clapton's musicianship. But, remember when they met, Duane would have been much more influenced by Clapton's playing than the other way around, since Clapton's recordings (Yardbirds, Mayall, and Cream) were availabe for several years prior to Duane's musical maturation and they were a huge influence on players on both sides of the Atlantic.
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bird72
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posted on 10/23/2009 at 11:41 PM |
| I just don't hear it... but I will sharpen my ears next time I play it.... ____________________
Irish and that's my excuse.
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dzobo
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posted on 10/25/2009 at 01:13 AM |
Came across this passage while reading the Layla section in the Randy Poe book. It's on page 161. Tom Dowd is talking about the night that Clapton and Duane met and what went on in the studio that night.
quote:
I said, ‘Hey, keep tape on the machine. Just keep it rolling.’ Into the morning and on into the early afternoon, they were still chopping along with each other. They had a good time, and they were talking and swapping instruments and doing all kinds of things. Two kindred spirits met.
Duane playing a Statocaster st the start of the Layla sessions. Interesting.
[Edited on 10/25/2009 by dzobo] ____________________
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.
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brofan
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posted on 10/25/2009 at 11:58 AM |
quote:
Came across this passage while reading the Layla section in the Randy Poe book. It's on page 161. Tom Dowd is talking about the night that Clapton and Duane met and what went on in the studio that night.
quote:
I said, ‘Hey, keep tape on the machine. Just keep it rolling.’ Into the morning and on into the early afternoon, they were still chopping along with each other. They had a good time, and they were talking and swapping instruments and doing all kinds of things. Two kindred spirits met.
Duane playing a Statocaster st the start of the Layla sessions. Interesting.
[Edited on 10/25/2009 by dzobo]
Great detective work! ____________________
"Love Like You've Never Been Hurt"-Satchel Paige
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PeachNutt
Peach Extraordinaire Karma: Posts: 4636 (4675 all sites) Registered: 11/29/2001 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/25/2009 at 01:59 PM |
i think the statement that Tom Dowd made was in the context of when they first met....
not as actual song recording sessions went on.......
having said that......i'm beginning to think that there may very well be a les paul in this song.....
i would love to ask EC about this....  ____________________
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dzobo
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posted on 10/25/2009 at 07:43 PM |
quote:
i'm beginning to think that there may very well be a les paul in this song.....
Care to elaborate? Any specific time markers in the recording when you think that it just might be a Les Paul?
[Edited on 10/25/2009 by dzobo] ____________________
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.
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Slimzimm
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posted on 10/26/2009 at 12:04 AM |
FYI, I found this link about a year ago and saved it. It's Bobby Whitlock's wife Coco answering all kinds of questions. Very interesting as I recall.
Poster happytobealive is Bobby's wife.
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=160164
FYI, this is killer IMHO. Rivals original KOG, and the other covers kick-ass. Great recording quality.
http://www.allmanbrothersband.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=77466#pid2238999
[Edited on 10/26/2009 by Slimzimm] ____________________
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homeboy
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posted on 10/26/2009 at 06:24 AM |
quote:
FYI, I found this link about a year ago and saved it. It's Bobby Whitlock's wife Coco answering all kinds of questions. Very interesting as I recall.
Poster happytobealive is Bobby's wife.
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=160164
and sad . . . ____________________
I'm a hung up on dreams I'll never see
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PeachNutt
Peach Extraordinaire Karma: Posts: 4636 (4675 all sites) Registered: 11/29/2001 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/26/2009 at 01:57 PM |
dz,
i've been listening to the record - i'll listen to the CD and give some times........
the repetitive bend at various points sounds like a les paul........
i'm beginning to hypothosis that track 3 (duanes track) was used with EC punching in at various points, but the majority of it being Duane........call me Nutts..........sure would love to ask Bobby Whitlock....I'll bet his memory is sharper that EC's anyway....  ____________________
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dzobo
Peach Master Karma: Posts: 702 (702 all sites) Registered: 3/19/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/26/2009 at 05:39 PM |
quote:
..........sure would love to ask Bobby Whitlock....I'll bet his memory is sharper that EC's anyway....
From back when the Jan Reid book about the Layla sessions was out, Bobby did comment. He was certain that the song was done without Duane at the session.
quote:
A couple of more follow-up notes from Bobby Whitlock thru Coco Carmel regarding the Reid Book:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to clarify a couple of things since I discovered that you are using my information to post on the Allman website .
Number one is that Mr. Reid is a fine man. The only persons left alive from that group of people are Bobby and Eric , and as you know Jim is incarcerated .
Eric is busy with his own book and was not able to help Jan .
Bobby has never claimed to have written any part of Layla .
The lick that Duane introduced at the session came from " As the years go passing by " , but it was the vocal melody .
Bobby was sent the unedited version of the book to proof read and somehow completely missed that statement about Duane and Eric writing the jam of "Keep on Growing "...
Duane is not on the track , it was not written by Duane and Eric ( Duane was not at this particular session ).
It was a jam and was nearly dropped , Bobby loved the whole feel of the song and wanted a chance to come up with lyrics , which he did and they performed it Sam and Dave stlye .
Duane was much beloved , and no-one would ever try to diminish his wonderful contributions .
Eric wrote Layla , the coda was written by Rita Coolidge and Jim Gordon ( Title "Time" )
Duane conceived the "Anyday" intro .
Respectfully Yours ,
CoCo Carmel
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also , there will be a second printing and all errors will be corrected at that time .
All of the comments and input was taken seriously , and knowing that ABB fans are so caring and concerned is vital to us , enabling us to make the proper changes . Thank you all .
Lovingly ,
CoCo Carmel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
____________________
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paulw718
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posted on 10/26/2009 at 08:59 PM |
I am going to toss in my 3 cents here. I found this on a WEB SITE called The Duane Allman Connection: The web site lists these sources used for the information
Sources:
[1] Derek and the Dominos -- The Layla Sessions -- 20th Anniversary Edition box set liner notes
[2] “Crossroads -- The Life and Music of Eric Clapton” by Michael Schumacher
[3] “Hittin’ The Note” Issue #22 (Allman Brothers Band Fan Club Fanzine)
[4] “Eric Clapton -- In His Own Words” by Marc Roberty
[5] The Allman Brothers Band Dreams box set liner notes
[6] WPLO Atlanta (radio) 1970 Duane Allman interview by Ed Shane
[7] Guitar Player Magazine, October 1981
A special thanks to Trevor and TonyD for all their help.
Here is what I found on this WEB site :
Q: What songs did Allman play on Layla and Assorted Other Love Songs (also fondly called The Layla Album)?
A: During the Layla sessions, 14 basic songs were recorded and mixed and Allman contributed to nearly all of them. He showed off his original slide style on “Nobody Knows You When You’re Down & Out” which complemented Clapton’s solo playing while adding a new dimension to this old blues standard. Allman’s elegant slide guitar hastened and greatly enhanced “Layla”, which was recorded on 9 September. Whitlock’s piano leads into a lamented finale with Clapton and Allman crying out to each other through their guitars. “Why Does Love Got To Be So Sad” begins with Allman playing without the aid of his slide. This duet between the two guitarists pushed Clapton to some of his best work. Allman’s slide on “Any Day” added the perfect touch to Clapton and Whitlock’s soulful lyrics.
“He [Allman] brought the best out of us, even with the songwriting,” Whitlock recalls. “ Like ‘Any Day’. Eric and I had already written it, but then Duane came up with the slide part. He said, ‘Hey, check this out. Let’s make it like a Roman chariot race’.” [1]
Allman also played on the following songs on The Layla Album: (the jams and alternate takes are available on The Layla Sessions -- 20th Anniversary Edition Box Set: “Key of E Jam”; “Key of A Jam”; “It Hurts Me Too”; “Keep on Growing”; “I Am Yours”; “Key to the Highway”; “Have You Ever Loved A Woman”; “Little Wing”; “It’s Too Late”; “It’s Too Late” (alternate take); “Thorn Tree In a Garden”; and “Mean Old World” (several takes with a version also appearing in the Crossroads box set). Incidentally, on sides 1,2,3, and 4 of The Layla Album, all the songs are right in the order they were cut from the first day through to "Layla"and then "Thorn Tree".
So...according to this web site, Duane DID play on Keep On Growing.
Do..anyone have any thoughts on this?
[Edited on 10/27/2009 by paulw718]
[Edited on 10/27/2009 by paulw718]
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shane-o
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posted on 10/26/2009 at 11:40 PM |
the thing about the carl radle tapes...(the one ABB discography uses in the great comparison he does(which I love his site..it is one of my all time favorite sites period) anyway the thing about the radle tapes...is Carl could have been taping the playback where Eric is overdubbing the 2nd guitar....I have the carl radle tapes....on a few diffrent Boots..substance and eric is derek,,etc,,,and they were recording with pignoses on some of the songs you can hear people talking...literally having conversations...not really yelling...so the radle tape just because it has two guitars..is not enough final evidence...
At first when iI listened to his versions(link above in this thread) i walked away convinced Duane did play on the track...later thinking about it and breaking out the boots i have with the private tapes I began to realize that it is hard to say when carl was recording..whether he did some of it during overdubs...getting both the playback and the new added guitar track....do this make sense the way it is written???
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Dusty
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posted on 10/26/2009 at 11:57 PM |
Well heres what Bobby said back in late july....
~Eric did all of the guitar work himself~I watched as he layered each guitar on "Keep On Growing" when it was an instrumental at first~I was watching the Master at work~How very fortunate I am to have been a part of that great record and band~When we were playinging we just did what we felt like doing~It was always changing~Sometimes in the middle of the set~As a matter of fact we could count on it~BW~
when his book comes out next year it will be a good one!
All the Best~ ____________________
Hittin' the Note with Dusty Sommers
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PeachNutt
Peach Extraordinaire Karma: Posts: 4636 (4675 all sites) Registered: 11/29/2001 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/27/2009 at 11:05 AM |
| if it's all EC, i wonder if he played a Les Paul on one track of KOG... ____________________
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dzobo
Peach Master Karma: Posts: 702 (702 all sites) Registered: 3/19/2003 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/27/2009 at 10:19 PM |
quote:
Well heres what Bobby said back in late july....
~Eric did all of the guitar work himself~I watched as he layered each guitar on "Keep On Growing" when it was an instrumental at first~I was watching the Master at work~How very fortunate I am to have been a part of that great record and band~When we were playinging we just did what we felt like doing~It was always changing~Sometimes in the middle of the set~As a matter of fact we could count on it~BW~
Bobby has been very steadfast on this and I wouldn't dare to argue with his eyewitness account. It would seem then if Duane played it would be at a time that Bobby wasn't there. I've offered the speculation that Duane and Tom Dowd might have done an informal midnight overdub that was never formally documented. But for me the dominant piece of evidence is what you believe you hear (stuff so Duane-ish that it is likely Duane). BTW, the poll on Han's Duane Allman site
http://www.duaneallman.info/index1.html
is currently running 56% to 44% that he is on the track. Vote if you have an opinion at this point.
Peachnutt, when you get the chance and inclination, would very much appreciate some time markings where you think you hear the Les Paul. In the original forum thread on this topic I indicated some very specific sections. Be interesting to see if there is a match. Now don't peak at mine yet.
____________________
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PeachNutt
Peach Extraordinaire Karma: Posts: 4636 (4675 all sites) Registered: 11/29/2001 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/28/2009 at 11:54 AM |
| OK.... ....we're cleaning up a little basement flood first....YEEECH!!!! ____________________
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dzobo
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posted on 10/28/2009 at 12:58 PM |
quote:
we're cleaning up a little basement flood first....YEEECH!!!!
Flooding on top of every thing else. YEECH SQUARED!!!!! Hope it's not too much of a disaster. Great time to listen to some music while manning the buckets and rags. Remember growing up on "the Island" and our basement would flood pretty regularly after a good storm. ____________________
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world.
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PeachNutt
Peach Extraordinaire Karma: Posts: 4636 (4675 all sites) Registered: 11/29/2001 Status: Offline
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posted on 10/28/2009 at 01:25 PM |
ours too....my brother and I used hate being the "mop-up detail"......
what part of L.I. you from?? ____________________
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