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Author: Subject: How to win a debate (or argument), WP style

A Peach Supreme





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  posted on 9/23/2009 at 12:17 PM


Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/23/2009 at 12:21 PM
You are under the presumption that there's ever actually a winner...

 

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  posted on 9/23/2009 at 12:36 PM
quote:
You are under the presumption that there's ever actually a winner...
Good point!

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/23/2009 at 12:40 PM
I thought the way to win was to say you have a 2,000 year old book with all the answers and you are right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

 

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  posted on 9/23/2009 at 06:30 PM
I miss Calvin and Hobbes.

 

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  posted on 9/23/2009 at 09:45 PM
quote:
I thought the way to win was to say you have a 2,000 year old book with all the answers and you are right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.


Nope. I just use it to back up my statements. I'm confident enough in my beliefs that I don't care whether someone else thinks I won or lost. Confident enough that when I know I'm right I don't worry about others' opinions.

BTW, do you have anything external to SCB that shows you right from wrong? Or do you just make it up as you go along?

Billastro

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/23/2009 at 09:46 PM
quote:
quote:
I thought the way to win was to say you have a 2,000 year old book with all the answers and you are right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.




LOL!
LOL? Maybe a brief smile -- it wasn't that witty . If you laugh this easily I'll have to tell you all my jokes!

Billastro

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/23/2009 at 09:48 PM
quote:
quote:
I thought the way to win was to say you have a 2,000 year old book with all the answers and you are right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.


Nope. I just use it to back up my statements. I'm confident enough in my beliefs that I don't care whether someone else thinks I won or lost. Confident enough that when I know I'm right I don't worry about others' opinions.

BTW, do you have anything external to SCB that shows you right from wrong? Or do you just make it up as you go along?

Billastro


We all have the truth inside us. When you are in touch with that you don't need any books. Even Jesus said "God is within".

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 07:38 AM
quote:

We all have the truth inside us. When you are in touch with that you don't need any books. Even Jesus said "God is within".


What verse is that?

 

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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 11:29 AM
quote:
I miss Calvin and Hobbes.
Me too!!! They were the best!!! I still laugh at their stuff to this day.

 

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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 11:35 AM
quote:
quote:
I thought the way to win was to say you have a 2,000 year old book with all the answers and you are right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.


Nope. I just use it to back up my statements. I'm confident enough in my beliefs that I don't care whether someone else thinks I won or lost. Confident enough that when I know I'm right I don't worry about others' opinions.

BTW, do you have anything external to SCB that shows you right from wrong? Or do you just make it up as you go along?

Billastro


External? Like a book written by some Bronze Age goat herders?

Sorry, no.

But somehow I still know right from wrong. Imagine that.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 11:36 AM
Hey, guess what, Bll. I'm even more confident I'm right than you are, because I don't have to drag up an old book to prove it.

I'm just right!

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 01:48 PM
quote:
quote:

We all have the truth inside us. When you are in touch with that you don't need any books. Even Jesus said "God is within".
What verse is that?
My question exactly! The closest I could find is
quote:
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[or among] you."
There's no evidence that He meant what a lot of New Agers apparently think, that God is somehow inherently within us.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Who is God, also) is a different matter since this happens, putting it briefly, as a result of our salvation, but not to all.

Billastro

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 01:55 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I thought the way to win was to say you have a 2,000 year old book with all the answers and you are right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.


Nope. I just use it to back up my statements. I'm confident enough in my beliefs that I don't care whether someone else thinks I won or lost. Confident enough that when I know I'm right I don't worry about others' opinions.

BTW, do you have anything external to SCB that shows you right from wrong? Or do you just make it up as you go along?

Billastro
External? Like a book written by some Bronze Age goat herders?

Sorry, no.

But somehow I still know right from wrong. Imagine that.
Bullfeathers. When you say "somehow" you make it clear that you have no idea of where you get your ideas from but that instead you make them up. I'll go farther and say that you don't even know the difference in a way that matters. I wish you had the honesty to admit to this instead of waffling on the question.

Years ago I heard a sociopathic child molester speaking his piece at his sentencing. He said, "I know in my heart I did nothing wrong." He got his views from precisely the same place you do. I hope that anyone you have business or personal dealings with knows you've built your values on quicksand.

quote:
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
Proverbs 14:12 (also 16:25)

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 01:55 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:

We all have the truth inside us. When you are in touch with that you don't need any books. Even Jesus said "God is within".
What verse is that?
My question exactly! The closest I could find is
quote:
Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[or among] you."
There's no evidence that He meant what a lot of New Agers apparently think, that God is somehow inherently within us.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Who is God, also) is a different matter since this happens, putting it briefly, as a result of our salvation, but not to all.

Billastro


There's no such thing as "salvation." That would assume there is something to be saved from. There isn't.

God really does exist in every one of us, whether some primitive people thought so or not.

You could say we ARE God, expressing himself as a human being.

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 01:57 PM
Interesting the turn this thread has taken. My original intention was to point out the childishness of the countless posts that call others liars, trolls, etc. The vast majority come from the leftward oriented here, and they match well with Calvin and Hobbes, a six-year-old and his stuffed tiger.



Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 02:05 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I thought the way to win was to say you have a 2,000 year old book with all the answers and you are right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.


Nope. I just use it to back up my statements. I'm confident enough in my beliefs that I don't care whether someone else thinks I won or lost. Confident enough that when I know I'm right I don't worry about others' opinions.

BTW, do you have anything external to SCB that shows you right from wrong? Or do you just make it up as you go along?

Billastro
External? Like a book written by some Bronze Age goat herders?

Sorry, no.

But somehow I still know right from wrong. Imagine that.
Bullfeathers. When you say "somehow" you make it clear that you have no idea of where you get your ideas from but that instead you make them up. I'll go farther and say that you don't even know the difference in a way that matters. I wish you had the honesty to admit to this instead of waffling on the question.

Years ago I heard a sociopathic child molester speaking his piece at his sentencing. He said, "I know in my heart I did nothing wrong." He got his views from precisely the same place you do. I hope that anyone you have business or personal dealings with knows you've built your values on quicksand.

quote:
There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
Proverbs 14:12 (also 16:25)

Billastro


I got my values the same place you got yours, Bill, and they didn't come out of a book. And because I don't believe your ancient book was written by God, nothing I believe even matters?

Do you see where this ridiculous belief in ancient mythology has taken you? Anyone who doesn't belief in your myth doesn't believe anything.

You ducked a question I asked you a few days ago. I'll repeat it. Why is it that the only difference bewteen the God the Jews discovered and other primitive gods is that their god supplied his own blood sacrifice?

When you look up at the stars, do you really think the being capable of creating all this would demand that people sacrifice goats to him, and even send his own "son" down from Heaven to be a sacrifice? As I said, this all may have seemed plausible to primitive people, but I'd like to hear a good explanation for it in modern terms.

You would have us believe that a being so advanced, so intelligent, as to be able to create not just everything we can see, but stuff so small it takes elaborate microscopes to even see it, has a weird need for people to worship him, bow down before him, obey his "commandments," and yes, even kill animals for his pleasure.

But then to show us what a wonderful god he was, he decided he didn't need goats and sheep anymore, and that in the future, the gory death of his son would suffice for meeting his needs.

See, the whole thing doesn't even make sense, and yet because someone wrote this all down thousands of years ago, you think you have some kind of moral superiority because you quote these writings to back up what you believe.



[Edited on 9/24/2009 by SantaCruzBluz]

 

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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 02:38 PM
quote:
Interesting the turn this thread has taken. My original intention was to point out the childishness of the countless posts that call others liars, trolls, etc. The vast majority come from the leftward oriented here, and they match well with Calvin and Hobbes, a six-year-old and his stuffed tiger.



Billastro

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Are you talking about Maconga, RBK etc.?

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 03:06 PM
quote:
I got my values the same place you got yours, Bill, and they didn't come out of a book. And because I don't believe your ancient book was written by God, nothing I believe even matters?
I don't understand how you got the first part of this. My values before I became a Christian were a great deal different from what they are now, and the change started around the time I began following Jesus. So yes, I really did get my current (and permanent) values from the Bible.

"Matters" is a strong word. I know nonChristians that I'd trust and I've know Christians that I wouldn't trust. It's impossible to compartmentalize as much as it may sound as if I do. But overall, I'd be more inclined to trust a Christian than a nonbeliever, and I'd be leery of anyone who got his or her values from somewhere within (moral relativism, more or less, is how I see this. But it's just my opinion)
quote:
Do you see where this ridiculous belief in ancient mythology has taken you? Anyone who doesn't belief in your myth doesn't believe anything.
When you use loaded words such as ridiculous and myth(ology) you make it harder to address the issue. There are plenty of reasons to believe in the existence of the God of the Bible and what follows from that. I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be an Atheist by Norman Geisler deals with many of the commonest objections to Christianity. It's a good read.
quote:
You ducked a question I asked you a few days ago. I'll repeat it. Why is it that the only difference bewteen the God the Jews discovered and other primitive gods is that their god supplied his own blood sacrifice?
My lapse. My answer now is what it would have been then -- I don't know
quote:
When you look up at the stars, do you really think the being capable of creating all this would demand that people sacrifice goats to him, and even send his own "son" down from Heaven to be a sacrifice? As I said, this all may have seemed plausible to primitive people, but I'd like to hear a good explanation for it in modern terms.
I think (again, my opinion) for the sacrificial system was to emphasize to a relatively unsophisticated group of people (and I know this will raise some hackles, but it's the best I can do on short notice) their accountability for their screwups. When a child steals a parent might give him a timeout in his bedroom; when an adult steals, he'll get a longer timeout in prison. Peoples can be childlike similarly to the way individuals can.

The blood sacrifices were for temporary atonements; the one-time sacrifice of Jesus was for believers on a lifelong basis. We still screw up, but we have God's forgiveness as a result of believing in His Son. (I'm sorry this sounds so simplistic, but it's the gist as I understand it, and the full explanation would fill many paragraphs).
quote:
You would have us believe that a being so advanced, so intelligent, as to be able to create not just everything we can see, but stuff so small it takes elaborate microscopes to even see it, has a weird need for people to worship him, bow down before him, obey his "commandments," and yes, even kill animals for his pleasure.
I wouldn't call it a weird need, since He doesn't force us to worship Him. However, if we don't, then He excludes us from His presence. As the Creator, He has this prerogative.

For an approximate analogy, suppose I madly love a particular woman, and that she tells me she'll marry me if I give up flirting and fooling around. I don't want to abide by her standards, so she refuses my presence. She isn't condemning me to a life of singleness (at least relative to her) but establishing boundaries for a relationship with her. I can have her, or my habits; I can't have both.
quote:
But then to show us what a wonderful god he was, he decided he didn't need goats and sheep anymore, and that in the future, the gory death of his son would suffice for meeting his needs.
Yup. In a sense, we'd become more "mature", but I sometimes wonder about this. The book of Proverbs was written some 2,300 years ago, but human nature hasn't changed a bit, as any chapter in the book will show.
quote:
See, the whole thing doesn't even make sense, and yet because someone wrote this all down thousands of years ago, you think you have some kind of moral superiority because you quote these writings to back up what you believe.
I think it really does make sense. The age of the writings doesn't matter to me as much as the truths that they reflect. I don't claim to understand it all, but I accept the parts that I do understand, and accept the rest based on extrapolation.

As to moral superiority, everyone with a moral "code" (even the amoral) holds to the code he uses because in one way or another he thinks it's best. You hold to yours instead of Christianity either because you think it's best, or because you don't think Christianity is as good. It's no big deal, and it's pretty much inevitable.

Billastro



[Edited on 9/24/2009 by SantaCruzBluz]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 05:47 PM
I have a hard time believing that you believe all that, Bil. Do you see any other evidence that the Creator of the Universe needed blood sacrifices from his "subjects," other than what some Bronze Age goat herders wrote about it? I don't see it anywhere around me.

The God who created me is a little more advanced than that, thank you.

 

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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 05:48 PM
And Bill, you seem to be saying that the only place one can get any worthwhile values is through the Bible. Is that really what you're saying?

 

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  posted on 9/24/2009 at 06:07 PM
quote:
quote:
I miss Calvin and Hobbes.
Me too!!! They were the best!!! I still laugh at their stuff to this day.


Me too...wanted to name a son Calvin after that pesky little bastard. These snowmen strips are still laugh out loud funny EVERY time I read them.

http://www.angelfire.com/wa/zzaran/calvin.html

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/25/2009 at 07:29 AM
quote:
I have a hard time believing that you believe all that, Bil. Do you see any other evidence that the Creator of the Universe needed blood sacrifices from his "subjects," other than what some Bronze Age goat herders wrote about it? I don't see it anywhere around me.

The God who created me is a little more advanced than that, thank you.
Needed? No. But for whatever reason, He chose this method. One reason may be that it emphasized that He owned everything the people had, that a blood sacrifice was irrevocable (unlike gold, etc.), and that He'd still provide even though they sacrificed their best.

They might not have grasped something subtler. If nothing else it was a powerful way to grab their attention (like the mule and the two-by-four).

Billastro

 

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"I can't say as ever I was lost, but I was bewildered once for three days."



—Daniel Boone

 

A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/25/2009 at 07:40 AM
quote:
And Bill, you seem to be saying that the only place one can get any worthwhile values is through the Bible. Is that really what you're saying?
Yes. Other sources will overlap but will inevitably miss the mark.

What I believe really seems to bother you a lot (but it's hard to interpret others' statements when all we have is letters on a screen).

How come? To be honest, I wish you'd stayed with Christianity (IIRC you used to be a churchgoer but left a long time ago), but except for trying to locate the source of your beliefs, values, etc., I've tried to keep a live-and-let-live outlook (haven't always succeeded, but I'm still working on perfection. So far I'm up to G ).

IMHO, and that of lots of other folks, Christianity best reflects accurately the so-called human condition. It's the only belief system I know of that requires nothing of its adherents but belief -- no behaviors, sacrifices, etc., will get me into heaven, only the belief that Jesus died to take the punishment for my sins, that He was resurrected from the grave, and that He's the son of God.

All my actions are based on my love for Him, not on fear of consequences. Analogy: I give my wife flowers all the time; there's rarely more than a day when the vase is empty. I do this because I love her and I know this pleases her, not because a rule book said so, and not because I'm afraid of consequences. It's love, nothing more.

Likewise, I do what I do, think what I think, and so on because I love the Lord. It's great that it also keeps me out of hell (or means that I don't condemn myself to eternity there) but that's not the main reason I believe.

Christianity makes more sense, IMHO, than any other "system" I'm aware of. It's not always easy, but the rewards, both now and in eternity, far outweigh any difficulties. Nothing compares.

Please excuse any inconsistencies -- I ran out of coffee...

Billastro



Billastro

 

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  posted on 9/25/2009 at 08:52 AM
Chrisitianity doesn't reflect anything but a bunch of bullsh!t. You are a moron if you believe that inconsistent book that was written based on hersey. That's real intelligent. Get in line behind JPB dumbass
 
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