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Author: Subject: Crackpots in controll

A Peach Supreme





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  posted on 8/18/2009 at 04:54 PM
Obama is letting a handfull of crying nut cases determine his health care policy but when millions marched against the Iraq war, they were ignored. Why does the right always get its way?
 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/18/2009 at 05:29 PM
quote:
Obama is letting a handfull of crying nut cases determine his health care policy but when millions marched against the Iraq war, they were ignored. Why does the right always get its way?



I've explained the state of the modern day liberal movement ad naseum on here. President Reagan had to deal with si milar economic numbers- over 10% unemployment, 22% interest rates and 15% inflation, much worse than now frankly, and yet he got his agenda passed through a 40-year entrenched Democrat Party-controled congress. He did it with LEADERSHIP. President Obama is a Democrat Party president who can't get it done with a senate and congress controled by his own party.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2009 at 05:51 PM
quote:
quote:
Obama is letting a handfull of crying nut cases determine his health care policy but when millions marched against the Iraq war, they were ignored. Why does the right always get its way?


Thepeople who will have an effect on whether this bill will pass or not are the House and Senate. As they waver, Obama can either compromise or lose. Congress never really had much ability to stop the war once it started. That's the difference.


Just to clear up a point. The anti war demonstrations took place before the war started. Magonda is right this time, its all about money whether its the war health care or anything else.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2009 at 09:13 PM
Why should it be passed? Not your personal beliefs, but based on what Obama and congress have presented so far -

-- Obama can't articulate anything that makes sense on this. Every time he runs out for another town hall, he muddies the water even more because the details are unclear. If this is so important to him and his Presidency, the White House has done an awful sales job to-date.

-- Congress has been even worse in this regard, compounding the problem by lumping together anyone with a question about the program as un-American, astroturf, the mob, etc.

-- We'd have to be complete fools to trust Washington at face value, given the state of affairs with existing single payer systems (Medicare, Medicaid, veterans care, native Americans care). All are plagued with unsustainable costs, huge waste, and poor quality. Why isn't Washington accountable to fixing those first before they can be trusted further?

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 8/18/2009 at 11:00 PM
quote:
Why should it be passed? Not your personal beliefs, but based on what Obama and congress have presented so far -

-- Obama can't articulate anything that makes sense on this. Every time he runs out for another town hall, he muddies the water even more because the details are unclear. If this is so important to him and his Presidency, the White House has done an awful sales job to-date.

-- Congress has been even worse in this regard, compounding the problem by lumping together anyone with a question about the program as un-American, astroturf, the mob, etc.

-- We'd have to be complete fools to trust Washington at face value, given the state of affairs with existing single payer systems (Medicare, Medicaid, veterans care, native Americans care). All are plagued with unsustainable costs, huge waste, and poor quality. Why isn't Washington accountable to fixing those first before they can be trusted further?


You can't expect govt programs to pay for themselves. It seems only the programs that aid people have to. Not the military, highways, or corporate bailouts.

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 12:33 AM
quote:
Why does the right always get its way?
It only seems that way because VIRTUALLY EVERYONE is right of you.

Oh - and - only one "L" in control LP.





[Edited on 8/19/2009 by Fujirich]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 12:57 AM
quote:
-- Congress has been even worse in this regard, compounding the problem by lumping together anyone with a question about the program as un-American, astroturf, the mob, etc.



This strategy was an extremely bad gamble and has caused even more resistance and mistrust..The White House has been on-board as well. Essentially putting yourself at war with the majority of America has to be the dumbest decision possible.

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 07:29 AM
Majority of America? You gotta be joking. It is a loud minority. It makes for good tv. But the vast majority of Americans want reform and don't think it is right if people go bankrupt because of medical costs. If it were a majority of Americans, Obama would not have been elected. Used to be that extreme views were called out as such and not given any space on tv, as were liars. Not so much anymore, now you have senators telling their constituents that this bill will pull the plug on Grandma and introducing bills claiming the President is not a citizen, etc..ad infinitum. The bonds of civility make for a strong democracy. When you have people intent on breaking those bonds, by among other things, bringing assault weapons to town hall meetings and intentionally lying about everything, it is crossing the line, and should be called out as such.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 08:22 AM
Minority Goliath? Let's look...

quote:
Views unchanged on Obama's healthcare plans: poll

Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:33am EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Americans remain skeptical of President Barack Obama's healthcare reform drive, but their views have not changed much after weeks of sometimes angry protests at public meetings, according to an NBC poll released on Tuesday.

Obama's approval rating on healthcare was at 41 percent, unchanged from last month, while 36 percent believed his reform plans were a good idea and 42 percent a bad idea -- also unchanged from last month's NBC/Wall Street Journal poll.

With Congress on a month long August break, the public relations battle over his top domestic priority has been center stage. Critics have disrupted some "town hall" meetings held by lawmakers, attracting enormous media attention.

But the poll found the number of Americans who thought their healthcare would get better under Obama's plan grew slightly in the last month from 21 percent to 24 percent -- within the margin of error. Forty percent believed it would get worse, virtually the same as last month.

Of those who had read or heard about the meetings, 62 percent said they would make no difference in their feelings about Obama's plan. They split evenly on whether the protests did more harm or good.

Misconceptions about the plan were widespread, however, with 55 percent saying it would give health coverage to illegal immigrants and 45 percent saying it would let the government decide when to stop care for the elderly. Both are untrue.

The poll of 805 Americans was taken from Saturday to Monday and has a margin of error of 3.5 percentage points.

Support for a government-run public insurance plan that would compete with private insurers slipped slightly from 46 percent to 43 percent.

That proposal -- included in all three bills approved by committees in the House of Representatives -- has been a prominent feature of the healthcare debate after the White House seemed to waffle on its support over the weekend.

Health Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said Obama preferred the public option but would consider other approaches like public cooperatives if they increase choice and competition for insurance consumers.

White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said on Tuesday the administration had exhibited a "boring consistency" by expressing a preference for a public option but refusing to draw any lines in the sand.

The fate of a public option will be a key question for lawmakers when they return to work on the overhaul in September, along with the cost and scope of the legislation and how it will be paid for.

Obama wants legislation that will rein in costs, constrain insurance companies and extend coverage to most of the 46 million Americans without health insurance.

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-HealthcareReform/idUSTRE57I01T20090819



Jezz, it's even an NBC poll, and I still don't see any numbers in there to indicate that those distrusting or questioning this are a minority by any stretch. We could easily find polls showing the issue as far worse for the President than this one.

As to him being elected; had his words matched his plans (in other words; if he didn't try to paint himself as Reagan before the election and instead was honest about how he planned to govern), I doubt he'd get elected. I seriously doubt he'll get re-elected.

quote:
The bonds of civility make for a strong democracy.
While I agree, there has been nothing civil in the left's protests over the last decade either. This is the first time in quite a while that the other side has decided to rise up and protest and now, suddenly, there's a lack of civility?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 08:25 AM
quote:
Obama is letting a handfull of crying nut cases determine his health care policy but when millions marched against the Iraq war, they were ignored. Why does the right always get its way?


You just summed up why Obama can't ram this down the throats of Americans. First you called Americans crackpots, then you call them nutcases. Some in Congress have called Americans un-American, others have called them Nazis, and all manner of insults. This has ZERO to do with the right always getting its way or with Americans being nutcase crackpots. It has to do with the American people looking at the legislation which was going to be rammed down their throat and not liking it for the most part. This is not a loud minority. There are plenty of people who voted for Obama who don't like this plan either. Your argument is paranoid and self defeating. Americans are fiercely independent and optomistic and at this point are distrustful of government who will nanny them and sell their future. The majoirty of Americans believe in a free enterprise system, even with the major ups and downs it may present. People are fed up with the bailouts, government takeovers and massive spending. You, and our elected officials can deny this, but it doesn't change the fact that many people are unhappy with this legislation. It has nothing to do with the crackpot right wingers getting their way.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 08:31 AM
quote:
While I agree, there has been nothing civil in the left's protests over the last decade either. This is the first time in quite a while that the other side has decided to rise up and protest and now, suddenly, there's a lack of civility?


Hold on a second.

Over the last decade, the Left was:
Traitors
America-haters
Terrorist lovers

Why?

Because "all they care about is Bush-bashing."

Now, since the shoe is on the other foot, and from my point of view, most conservatives seem to think they are better, smarter and all around morally superior human beings than people on the left, and conservatives were so disgusted with that left behavior over the last decade, then why are they partaking in that same behavior?

I mean, moral and intellectual superiority would guide you to behave better than your counterpart, no?

If it's wrong, it's wrong and someone has to stop doing it and act like rational adults. However, that will never, ever happen. I am to the point where politically, I do not believe there will be any unity on any issue ever again no matter what it is. I don't understand why anyone on the left or right needs to draw a Hitler mustache on a poster to get their point across.

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 08:39 AM
quote:
While I agree, there has been nothing civil in the left's protests over the last decade either. This is the first time in quite a while that the other side has decided to rise up and protest and now, suddenly, there's a lack of civility?


You mean like when Bush was trying to privatize Social Security and do Medicare reform and all those crazy libs showed up with rifles? It is one thing to be mad about wars and quite another to become unhinged and against enabling people to get quality health care.

I didn't see any reports of war protesters packing assault rifles to war protests either, so yes, I am definitely saying that that bringing rifles to a town hall meeting, where important matters concerning all people are discussed, the very essence of democracy, is crossing a damn line on the civility meter. I am just a dirty **** !ng hippy I guess.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 08:48 AM
quote:
quote:
Obama is letting a handfull of crying nut cases determine his health care policy but when millions marched against the Iraq war, they were ignored. Why does the right always get its way?


You just summed up why Obama can't ram this down the throats of Americans. First you called Americans crackpots, then you call them nutcases. Some in Congress have called Americans un-American, others have called them Nazis, and all manner of insults. This has ZERO to do with the right always getting its way or with Americans being nutcase crackpots. It has to do with the American people looking at the legislation which was going to be rammed down their throat and not liking it for the most part. This is not a loud minority. There are plenty of people who voted for Obama who don't like this plan either. Your argument is paranoid and self defeating. Americans are fiercely independent and optomistic and at this point are distrustful of government who will nanny them and sell their future. The majoirty of Americans believe in a free enterprise system, even with the major ups and downs it may present. People are fed up with the bailouts, government takeovers and massive spending. You, and our elected officials can deny this, but it doesn't change the fact that many people are unhappy with this legislation. It has nothing to do with the crackpot right wingers getting their way.


Sounds to me your real issue is that someone said there are crackpot right wingers.

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 09:24 AM


[Edited on 8/19/2009 by jim]

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 09:24 AM


[Edited on 8/19/2009 by jim]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 09:24 AM
quote:
Majority of America? You gotta be joking.


I'm not affiliated with any right-wing astroturf group, and I'm not one of the 42% that favor the plan. If the majority of Americans want what's being proposed, why is this number at 42? It might be true that a higher number want some reforms made, but the majority of Americans don't want this. Thus far, not agreeing with the Presidents policies has been played off as something besides simply not liking the plans - like racism or manufactured outrage. Trivializing or diminishing their concerns only irritates people worse.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/heal thcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_ne w_low

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 09:24 AM
quote:
Majority of America? You gotta be joking.


I'm not affiliated with any right-wing astroturf group, and I'm not one of the 42% that favor the plan. If the majority of Americans want what's being proposed, why is this number at 42? It might be true that a higher number want some reforms made, but the majority of Americans don't want this. Thus far, not agreeing with the Presidents policies has been played off as something besides simply not liking the plans - like racism or manufactured outrage. Trivializing or diminishing their concerns only irritates people worse.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/heal thcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_ne w_low

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 09:24 AM
quote:
Majority of America? You gotta be joking.


I'm not affiliated with any right-wing astroturf group, and I'm not one of the 42% that favor the plan. If the majority of Americans want what's being proposed, why is this number at 42? It might be true that a higher number want some reforms made, but the majority of Americans don't want this. Thus far, not agreeing with the Presidents policies has been played off as something besides simply not liking the plans - like racism or manufactured outrage. Trivializing or diminishing their concerns only irritates people worse.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/heal thcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_ne w_low

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 09:24 AM
quote:
Sounds to me your real issue is that someone said there are crackpot right wingers.


Maybe it is. Sticks and stones don't bother me per se. Its the lack of substance in the argument from posters (and politicians) who write off other Americans as crackpots because they have a different opinion. Name calling is self defeating and adds ZERO to the debate. I mentioned Americans in my post are unhappy with this, not just right wingers. Plus, both sides do this sort of name calling. Saying right wing nutjobs always get their way is a cop out for poorly conceived legislation. Why would the adminstration and Congress push so hard to get this done before break? What was the big rush?

I guess I need clarification from the originator of the thread, are only right wing nutjobs, cracpots, etc against this legislation? Or are there some other extremist dumb asses that don't like it...you know, like some of Blue Dogs Democrats.

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 09:24 AM
quote:
Majority of America? You gotta be joking.


I'm not affiliated with any right-wing astroturf group, and I'm not one of the 42% that favor the plan. If the majority of Americans want what's being proposed, why is this number at 42? It might be true that a higher number want some reforms made, but the majority of Americans don't want this. Thus far, not agreeing with the Presidents policies has been played off as something besides simply not liking the plans - like racism or manufactured outrage. Trivializing or diminishing their concerns only irritates people worse.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/heal thcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_ne w_low

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 09:24 AM
quote:
Majority of America? You gotta be joking.


I'm not affiliated with any right-wing astroturf group, and I'm not one of the 42% that favor the plan. If the majority of Americans want what's being proposed, why is this number at 42? It might be true that a higher number want some reforms made, but the majority of Americans don't want this. Thus far, not agreeing with the Presidents policies has been played off as something besides simply not liking the plans - like racism or manufactured outrage. Trivializing or diminishing their concerns only irritates people worse.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/heal thcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_ne w_low

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 11:15 AM
Sorry, I just posted about 8 times in a row. Something wrong with the server...or I just suck at the internet. Likely the latter.
 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 11:34 AM
quote:
Thus far, not agreeing with the Presidents policies has been played off as something besides simply not liking the plans - like racism or manufactured outrage.


You yourself went to the wall against a "Presidents policies" that didn't even exist. If that's not manufactured, then what is?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 11:36 AM
quote:
quote:
Thus far, not agreeing with the Presidents policies has been played off as something besides simply not liking the plans - like racism or manufactured outrage.


You yourself went to the wall against a "Presidents policies" that didn't even exist. If that's not manufactured, then what is?


Nobody was able to make much of a case that no rationing would take place, especially when the money got tight. But that's far from the only reason I happen to be against the plan.



[Edited on 8/19/2009 by alloak41]

 

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  posted on 8/19/2009 at 11:44 AM
quote:
If the majority of Americans want what's being proposed, why is this number at 42?


You gotta be joking, right? Obama ran on health care reform and was elected. I saw a poll earlier showing 76% of the people supporting health reform. Now after insurance companies and other very large medical corporations of various stripes have been spending millions a day to say that grandma is going to get set out to sea on ice floes, and many other outright lies and fear mongering such as bringing weapons to town hall meetings, and other dishonest and vicious and immoral acts, deceiving people about the proposals in this bill, and it is easy to understand the confusion and skepticism among the American people.

Whether you are just caught up in this or genuinely moved by the emotion generated by the lies and deceptions and distortion of facts, or believe them to be true, it is not for me to judge, but I find it inconceivable that enabling people access to health care has stirred up this much angst amongst working class people. It is just opposition to a cause at the expense of the common good, with much room to maneuver if honest debate were allowed, but no, senators embracing their radical and extreme followers instead of honest, civil debate and that is what is so sad.

[Edited on 8/19/2009 by Goliath]

 

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