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Author: Subject: Time To Go, Grampa

Ultimate Peach





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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 09:40 AM
Have to admit, death does cut medical expenses. And seeing how Obamacare wants to circumvent the Hyde Admendment to allow abortions on demand at taxspayers expense, why not have a "death with dignity" provision written into the bill just as well. If you're going to kill on one end, you might as well kill on the other, especially knowing that nearly half of all medical expenses come in the last six months of life. If there's an area to cut cost, this is it. Besides, what's good for the family pet, is just as good for Grampa and Grandma. Nobody wants to see them suffer, and you know both Grampa and Grandma doesn't want everthing they worked for all their life, and that they hope to leave to their children and grandchildren as an inheritance, used up to prolong what left of their lives. Better to let them "die with dignity".

Of course, there maybe just one or two ETHICAL points that one might want to consider before America get's to that particular "crossroad" in trying to have affordable medical care for all, and without imposting an extra tax burden on the those making $250,000 a year or less.

quote:
Time To Go, Grampa
by Patrick J. Buchanan

With “controlling costs” a primary goal of Obamacare, and half of all medical costs coming in the last six months of life, “rationed care” takes on a new meaning for us all.

London’s Telegraph reported Sunday that the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence, known by its Orwellian acronym NICE, intends to slash by 95 percent the number of steroid injections, such as cortisone, given to people who suffer severe and chronic back pain.

“Specialists fear,” said the Telegraph, “tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as 500 pounds each for private treatment.”

Now, twin this story with the weekend Washington Post story about Obamacare’s “proposal to pay physicians who counsel elderly or terminally ill patients about what medical treatment they would prefer near the end of life and how to prepare instructions such as living wills,” and there is little doubt as to what is coming.

The Post portrayed the controversy as stoked by “right-leaning radio” using explosive language like “guiding you in how to die” and government plans to “kill Granny.” Yet, is not the logical purpose of paying doctors for house calls to the terminally ill, whose medical costs are killing Medicare, to suggest a pleasant and early exit from a pain-filled and costly life?

Let us suppose the NICE plan in Britain is adopted. And an 80-year-woman, living alone, with excruciating persistent back pain, is visited by a physician-counselor. What is he likely to advise? What conclusion would Grandma be led to by a doctor who sweetly explains what treatment she may still receive, what is being cut off, and what her other options might be?

What other options are there?

Examples of how to “die with dignity” are at hand.

Three weeks ago, Sir Edward Downes, the world-renowned British orchestra leader, who was going blind and deaf, and his wife of 54 years, who had terminal cancer, ended their lives at a Zurich clinic run by the assisted suicide group Dignitas. They drank a small amount of liquid and died hand in hand, their adult children by their side.

This is the way of de-Christianized Europe. For years, doctors have assisted the terminally ill in ending their lives. Indeed, it has been reported that indigent, sick and elderly patients who could not make the decision for themselves had it made for them.

In America, we have a Death with Dignity Act in Oregon and such suicide counselors as the Hemlock Society, which itself took the cup in 2003. Now we have Compassion & Choices, which counsels the elderly sick on a swift and painless end. Before he took to ending the lives of patients who were not terminal, but sick and depressed, Dr. Kevorkian had his admirers. Not infrequently, one reads of nursing homes where the infirm and elderly have been put to death.

Beneath this controversy lie conflicting concepts about life.

To traditional Christians, God is the author of life and innocent life, be it of the unborn or terminally ill, may not be taken. Heroic means to keep the dying alive are not necessary, but to advance a natural death by assisting a suicide or euthanasia is a violation of the God’s commandment, Thou shalt not kill.

To secularists and atheists who believe life begins and ends here, however, the woman alone decides whether her unborn child lives, and the terminally ill and elderly, and those closest to them, have the final say as to when their lives shall end. As it would be cruel to let one’s cat or dog spend its last months or weeks in terrible pain, they argue, why would one allow one’s parents to endure such agony?

In the early 20th century, with the influence of Social Darwinism, the utilitarian concept that not all life is worth living or preserving prevailed. In Virginia and other states, sterilization laws were upheld by the Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, who said famously, “Three generations of imbeciles are enough.”

In Weimar Germany, two professors published “The Permission to Destroy Life Unworthy of Life,” which advocated assisted suicide for the terminally ill and “empty shells of human beings.” Hitler’s Third Reich, marrying Social Darwinism to Aryan racial supremacy, carried the concepts to their logical if horrible conclusion.

Revulsion to Nazism led to revival of the Christian ideal of the sanctity of all human life and the moral obligation of all to defend it. But the utilitarian idea — of the quality of life trumping the faith-based idea of the sanctity of life — has made a strong comeback.

And the logic remains inexorable. If government intends to “bend the curve” of rising health care costs, and half of those costs are incurred in the last six months of life, and physician-counselors will be sent to the seriously ill to advise them of what costs will no longer be covered, and what their options are — what do you think is going to be Option A?



[Edited on 8/5/2009 by sibwlkr]

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 09:59 AM
Give them a pain pill.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 10:17 AM
quote:
YOUTUBE=The White Rodney King

TED NUGENT FOR PRESIDENT
ROTFLMAO!!!! Luke, you've got to stop joking around if you want people to take your posts seriously and listen to your ideas. This last part IS a joke, right?!?!?!?

 

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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 10:21 AM
The ignorance expressed on this issue is so staggering it's sad.

"End of life" counseling has been known for years as "getting your affairs in order," and can be very helpful when it comes to hospice, advance directives, how you want to live your last days, how you want things to go after you pass, how to pay for funerals, how to go about estate planning, etc. As I understand it, this type of counseling is not paid for by the government and the provision in the legislation will provide for paying for such a thing. I can certainly understand an argument on whether or not the government should be paying for the counseling, but this whole "kill the old people off" crap is just effing stupid.

Much is being made of the phrase "telling people how to die." Well, in perspective that's one way of looking at it. Let's say you are a person that has had no real health issues and really hasn't even thought about what to do if something happens to you. You go do the doctor because you haven't been feeling well and you find out you have teminal cancer and they give you 3 to 6 months and tell you "you need to get your affairs in order." You are overwhelmed. You need help. You may need end-of-life counseling.

There's end of life literature filling a filing cabinet not five feet from me.

 

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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 11:06 AM
My father had a Living Will that stated he wanted no extraordinary means performed to continue his life. Fortunately when his time came he was coherent and was able to reiterate his living will wishes. There were a series of articles in the Philly Inquirer a while back about how Living Wills. It talked about cases where people didn't have one. They would fall ill and couldn't communicate or be accountable for what they were saying. Their prognosis was terminal and either the survivor wanted them kept alive or there were disagreements amongst the survivors as to what care should be granted. There were also other cases where the hospital wouldn't honor a living will if it conflicted with the hospital's moral directive.

All the while the bills would keep coming regardless of the patient's wishes.

Getting your affairs in order and your wishes on paper beforehand is a smart idea. Your family is going to have enough to worry about.

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 11:18 AM
quote:
He's (Buchanan) a nazi so he should know a thing or two about the topic at hand.


About the only Nazis out there nowadays are the Zionist thugs in the IDF and their Gestapo like treatment of Palestians (Gaza was an excellent example of how to keep order in a "concentration camp"), and other non-Jews and their attempts to turn Israel into an "apartheid" nation. Of course, the Israeli Arabs are outbreeding the Jews in Israel proper, and in about 30 years, Jews in Israel will be a minority population. What happens to the concept of a Jewish "homeland" after that? Either it'll be a democracy that has FULL and EQUAL RIGHT'S for ALL it's citizens (no more "Jim Crow" type of laws concerning "non-Jews), knowing full well that means becoming more an Arab state than a Jewish one, OR else become an "apartheid" nation, with various Palestinian "homelands" surrounding it (think South Africa, before 1994), and a huge "police apparatus" to keep order in those "homelands".

Also, I wonder if United States will still be Israel primary benefactor then? Be terrible if someone like Obama did a Charles de Gaulle with Israel (don't worry AIPAC and the American Congress will make sure that doesn't happen). Nevertheless, it only a matter of time before that "special relationship" that the United States and Israel has ends, and America will probably be much better off in it's dealing with ALL the nations of the Middle East.

Now back to Grampa, and what's he to do when Medicare or Obamacare, whatevercare, tells him he only eligible for X dollars amount for treatment, and what is limited treatment options may be.




[Edited on 8/5/2009 by sibwlkr]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 11:21 AM
quote:
Now back to Grampa, and what's he to do when Medicare or Obamacare, tells him he only eligible for X dollars amount of dollars for treatment, and what is limited treatment options may be.



Grampa's insurance company tells him that now. Grampa gets told that now from Medicare, and the system as it stands is that Grampa better have Medicare supplimental insurance or he may be in a world of trouble. Grampa also better hope if he's on Prescription Part D he has the money to deal with the donut hole.

 

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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 11:34 AM
When one starts calling out names like Nazi, etc, then their arguement is lost because it's apparent they're speaking from a position of fear and often ignorance.

It's been said well in here.....Living Wills are part of any pre-op here in our area. Hospice works with the terminally ill to help them die with dignity and not writhing in pain. I'm a grandma....great grandma now.....and when my time comes, I want someone to make sure my affairs are in order, that my pain is managed and that I not be slapped on some life support machine so the medical industry can squeeze a few more dollars out of my estate. And it happens.....both to my grandmother and an aunt.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 11:46 AM
quote:
There's plenty of valid points to be made about the state of Israel but calling their soldiers nazis is not among them.



From what I seen coming out of Gaza, many of their tactics, were very Gestapo like. I remember some journalist put together some photes taken in late 30's and early 40's in Germany of how the Jews were being treated, and some pictures of how the IDF were treating the Palestians in the Gaza strip. And the pictures from both eras were very, very similar. And you do have admit that Israel has taken a very "right wing" turn nowadays. And from what I understand many younger Israeli Jews have either immigrated or considering immigration. Taken as a whole it doesn't bode well for the nation of Israel future.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 06:45 PM
quote:
quote:
He's (Buchanan) a nazi so he should know a thing or two about the topic at hand.


About the only Nazis out there nowadays are the Zionist thugs in the IDF and their Gestapo like treatment of Palestians (Gaza was an excellent example of how to keep order in a "concentration camp"), and other non-Jews and their attempts to turn Israel into an "apartheid" nation. Of course, the Israeli Arabs are outbreeding the Jews in Israel proper, and in about 30 years, Jews in Israel will be a minority population. What happens to the concept of a Jewish "homeland" after that? Either it'll be a democracy that has FULL and EQUAL RIGHT'S for ALL it's citizens (no more "Jim Crow" type of laws concerning "non-Jews), knowing full well that means becoming more an Arab state than a Jewish one, OR else become an "apartheid" nation, with various Palestinian "homelands" surrounding it (think South Africa, before 1994), and a huge "police apparatus" to keep order in those "homelands".

Also, I wonder if United States will still be Israel primary benefactor then? Be terrible if someone like Obama did a Charles de Gaulle with Israel (don't worry AIPAC and the American Congress will make sure that doesn't happen). Nevertheless, it only a matter of time before that "special relationship" that the United States and Israel has ends, and America will probably be much better off in it's dealing with ALL the nations of the Middle East.

Now back to Grampa, and what's he to do when Medicare or Obamacare, whatevercare, tells him he only eligible for X dollars amount for treatment, and what is limited treatment options may be.


[Edited on 8/5/2009 by sibwlkr]


Grandpa will have to go down to the newstand if he's near a city and buy something to ease his pain; or go to a concert and score something in the parking lot to deal with his pain. He might even be able to have his newspaper delivery man leave a little somethin' extra in the newspaper bag.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 06:46 PM
quote:
quote:
There's plenty of valid points to be made about the state of Israel but calling their soldiers nazis is not among them.



From what I seen coming out of Gaza, many of their tactics, were very Gestapo like. I remember some journalist put together some photes taken in late 30's and early 40's in Germany of how the Jews were being treated, and some pictures of how the IDF were treating the Palestians in the Gaza strip. And the pictures from both eras were very, very similar. And you do have admit that Israel has taken a very "right wing" turn nowadays. And from what I understand many younger Israeli Jews have either immigrated or considering immigration. Taken as a whole it doesn't bode well for the nation of Israel future.


What does this have to do with US health care????

 

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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 06:50 PM
Phew, I thought it was just me who didn't understand the connection.

 

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  posted on 8/5/2009 at 06:57 PM
PhotoRon286 and bigann,

Just educating mglowenstein after he called the writer of the article, Pat Buchanan, a Nazi, on what real "Nazi behavior" is all about. Sorry for the "topic" diversion.

 
 


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