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Sublime Peach





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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 07:58 AM


[Edited on 8/20/2009 by jerryphilbob]

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:02 AM
How, exactly?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:02 AM
Belize has a minimum wage? Who woulda thunk it.

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:02 AM
ahh, the inevitable youtube clip to back up your claim

should've known



[Edited on 7/24/2009 by lonomon]

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:06 AM
quote:
How, exactly?


Really? You don't understand that an increase in wages will cost jobs and increase the price of goods? Try econ 101. What did they teach you in school? Your financail IQ is just about on par with OTF. WoW!

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:14 AM
quote:
quote:
How, exactly?


Really? You don't understand that an increase in wages will cost jobs and increase the price of goods? Try econ 101. What did they teach you in school? Your financail IQ is just about on par with OTF. WoW!


Econ 101, eh? Interesting that you leave out the fact that there's much disagreement among even economists that raising the minimum wage destroys jobs. That's how the study of not only economics, but most disciplines works, JPB. Your only pointing out one side of the argument. Nothing surprising about that.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:16 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
How, exactly?


Really? You don't understand that an increase in wages will cost jobs and increase the price of goods? Try econ 101. What did they teach you in school? Your financail IQ is just about on par with OTF. WoW!


Econ 101, eh? Interesting that you leave out the fact that there's much disagreement among even economists that raising the minimum wage destroys jobs. That's how the study of not only economics, but most disciplines works, JPB. Your only pointing out one side of the argument. Nothing surprising about that.


Also, you do realize that this legislation was passed over two years ago, no? I don't recall you bitching about it then.

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:20 AM
Really? What is the other side of the argument. We are in a recession/depression and I would love to hear the argument that increasing the costs for businesses to do business won't cost jobs or increase the price of goods. You actually think the business is going to absorb these costs and it won't affect the price of goods or cost people their jobs?

If you pay an economist enough money they will say anything, kinda like scientist with global warming.

Please expand on why you don't think this wage increase won't cause prices to rise and cost people jobs during an economic downturn? I can't wait for this.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:21 AM
Here ya go:

Minimum wage hike: More money or fewer jobs?

On Friday the federal minimum wage jumps to $7.25 an hour from $6.55. Economists differ as to whether that will hurt or help low-income workers.

By Aaron Smith, CNNMoney.com staff writer
Last Updated: July 24, 2009: 6:01 AM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- On Friday, the federal minimum wage rises for the third year in a row, sparking the perennial argument among economists: Will it help workers at the bottom of the ladder, or will it kill their jobs?

The U.S. minimum wage goes to $7.25 an hour, from $6.55, according to the U.S. Department of Labor. Most states have their own minimum wage, and employers are required to pay whichever is higher. That means minimum wage workers will get a raise in 29 states. In the remaining 21 states and Washington, D.C., they'll see no change.

In some states, the increase will be more modest. In New York, the state minimum wage is $7.15 an hour, so workers there will be paid an extra dime an hour, which means another $4 for a 40-hour week. But in states like Georgia, Virginia and Texas, workers are paid the current federal minimum of $6.55, so they'll get the largest raise of 70 cents, which translates into a $28 bump for a full-time week, or more than $1,400 a year.
Injecting money into the economy?

Kai Filion, an economist with the Economic Policy Institute in Washington, estimated that more than 2.8 million workers will have their wages lifted to $7.25 an hour on Friday. More than 1.6 million workers will also be indirectly affected, according to Filion, meaning their above-minimum wages will increase as the rising tide lifts all boats.

That adds up to nearly 4.5 million workers who would get a raise. The impact varies widely from state to state, depending on state minimum wages and population. In New York, with its $7.10-an-hour state minimum, 63,000 workers would be directly impacted, according to the EPI, compared with 632,000 workers in Texas.

"Because it's not a big increase, any impact will be modest, but it will be good," said Heidi Shierholz, a minimum wage expert with the EPI. "You're seeing people say this is a wrong time to do this, but I think that is entirely wrong-headed. They could not have planned this for a better time."

Based on Filion's estimates, the wage increase will inject $5.5 billion worth of extra spending into the economy over the next year.

"It gets additional money to low-wage workers," said Shierholz. "These are workers who are mostly struggling to get by and will spend that extra cash. This is actually stimulus."
Or fewer jobs for low-wage workers?

Back in 2007, before the current recession began, Congress passed a bill to increase the minimum wage, which was then $5.15 an hour, three times over three years.

Some economists believe that the Friday increase couldn't be happening at a worse time. The U.S. economy lost nearly 3.4 million jobs in the first half of 2009, which is more than the 3.1 million lost in all of 2008.

Suzanne Clain, professor and living wage expert at the Villanova School of Business in Pennsylvania, said that increasing the minimum wage would create additional financial hardships for employers, driving the nationwide unemployment rate above its current 9.5%.

"My feeling is that increasing the minimum wage is going to put additional strain on the economy," she said. "Additional jobs will be lost as a result. It puts stress on employers who are currently having very small profit margins."

Clain conducted an analysis showing that the 13 states with the highest minimum wage -- exceeding the upcoming federal minimum of $7.25 an hour -- experienced higher unemployment levels than the other 37 states. She said the unemployment rates were higher by an average of between 1.75% and 2% in those 13 states during the three-month period ending in May.

"Raising minimum wage rates will generally discourage businesses from employing people," Clain said. "We're already suffering from a downturn phase."
What about the waitresses?

Regardless of whether Friday's increase has a beneficial or negative effect on minimum-wage workers, there is one group that it always seems to leave behind, according to the National Employment Law Project: waiters, waitresses and other workers who rely on tips.

NELP, a New York and Washington-based advocacy group for low-wage workers, released a recent study highlighting the fact that the minimum wage for tip workers has remained frozen at $2.13 an hour since 1991. According to NELP, the buying power of this wage has fallen 36% over the last 18 years.

"This disproportionately affects women," said Raj Nayak, a lawyer with NELP. "Waiters around the country have three times the poverty level of other workers. It's hard to depend on tips."

To NELP, the solution is obvious: Raise the minimum wage for tipped workers. In the study, the group said the federal government could follow the lead of some 13 states that guarantee tipped workers 60% of the minimum wage, which was actually a federal policy until 20 years ago.

Better yet, the study suggests, the government could extend the same federal minimum wage to tipped workers as to any other wage earners, noting that this is already practiced in seven states, including California and Nevada. To top of page

First Published: July 24, 2009: 3:36 AM ET

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:26 AM
Minimum Wage Is Set to Rise

The federal minimum wage will climb 11%, to $7.25 an hour from $6.55, lifting the incomes of those who earn less than $15,000 a year

By Esmé E. Deprez

Minimum-wage workers will see a bump in their pay come July 24, when the federal minimum rises by 11%, to $7.25 an hour from $6.55. It will put an extra $120 per month in the pockets of the more than 2 million janitors, cafeteria workers, and child-care providers, among others, who rely on incomes of less than $15,000 annually.

"This well-deserved increase will help workers better provide for their families in the face of today's economic challenges," Secretary of Labor Hilda Solis said in a July 16 news release. "I am especially pleased that the change will benefit working women, who make up two-thirds of minimum-wage earners."

The raise is the third and final increase as mandated by the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007. An amendment to the Fair Labor Standards Act first hiked the federal minimum wage to $5.85 per hour from $5.15 in July 2007, and the following July it climbed to $6.55. Adjusted for inflation, the $7.25-per-hour wage is 25% less than it was in the late 1960s.
"Adding Insult to Injury"

Not everyone is lauding the increase—especially at a time when the U.S. economy suffers from a recession and the unemployment rate has climbed to 9.5%. The National Small Business Assn. (NSBA) warns the wage hike may produce adverse effects. "It's obviously a concern for a lot of small businesses, particularly given the bad economy," says Molly Brogan, vice-president of public affairs at the Washington-based advocacy organization. "I think the minimum-wage increase coming on is adding insult to injury," she says, calling the timing of the change "unfortunate."

In its 2009 Mid-Year Economic Report to be released on July 22, NSBA finds that just 9% of small businesses hired new employees in the past 12 months, down from 18% in December. Over the same period, 62% saw revenues decrease while 66% experienced a decrease in profits, according to the report.

Higher wages, however, are necessary for the millions of Americans who are increasingly feeling the pinch of recession, contends Eileen Appelbaum, a visiting scholar at the Center for Economic & Policy Research and an economist at Rutgers. "The most important thing in getting the economy moving again is to restore consumer confidence," she says. "Research shows that people with higher income will save but the people who are already strapped for cash and barely making it—people who are resource-constrained and income-constrained—will go out and spend the extra money coming in."
State Laws Vary

Instead of hurting small businesses, Appelbaum considers the wage increase an advantage to them, helping to boost consumer spending without increasing state and federal deficits. "It's really important to have a minimum wage that provides a floor to support a growing middle class," she says. "There is no better time to provide the working poor with extra money in their pockets."

A dozen states require employers to pay workers more than the federally mandated minimum, inclduing Washington, Oregon, and Vermont. Thirty states currently have a minimum wage that is at or below the federal minimum or have no state minimum at all, including New York, Texas, and Virginia. When state and federal minimums differ, employers must pay the higher wage. Several states have tied their minimum-wage increases to consumer prices as an automatic setting mechanism, while the District of Columbia requires its minimum to be $1 above the federal wage.

A 2008 NSBA survey of small and midsize businesses nationwide found that only 17% of small businesses employing fewer than 500 employees pay less than $10 per hour on average. A minimum-wage increase, therefore, will not directly affect all small businesses but could cause a ripple effect of higher wages as those earning just above the minimum expect their incomes to rise, commensurate with minimum-wage workers.

Deprez is a reporter for BusinessWeek.

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:30 AM
quote:
Really? What is the other side of the argument. We are in a recession/depression and I would love to hear the argument that increasing the costs for businesses to do business won't cost jobs or increase the price of goods. You actually think the business is going to absorb these costs and it won't affect the price of goods or cost people their jobs?

If you pay an economist enough money they will say anything, kinda like scientist with global warming.

Please expand on why you don't think this wage increase won't cause prices to rise and cost people jobs during an economic downturn? I can't wait for this.


I didn't say which side I fell on, did you consider that I might agree with you?

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:30 AM
Really? CNN? The head talking points for the CFR. Find someone that isn't tied to the destruction of capitalism and our democracy to validate your points. That propoganda is **** .

Try using some plain common sense to boot. It really is simple math. Businesses will get more efficient (cut jobs) or pass it on to the consumer. Someone is going to pay and it won't be the business that this "tax" is affecting. It might seem small, 70 cents, but try adding that cost up over a year and multiplying it by the number of employees, and it will add up to thousands of dollars over the course of a year. People will lose jobs and the price of consumer goods will go up.

Because you can't destroy a democracy overnight, it takes time, and your kids money!

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:30 AM
the flipside?

The Associated Press July 23, 2009, 5:19PM ET

Minimum wage hike could threaten low earners' jobs

By DIONNE WALKER



A federal minimum wage increase that takes effect Friday could prolong the recession, some economists say, by forcing small businesses to lay off the same workers that the pay hike passed in better times was meant to help.

The increase to $7.25 means 70 cents more an hour for the lowest-paid workers in the 30 states that have lower minimums or no minimum wage. It also means higher costs for employers who feel they've already trimmed all their operating fat.

"How will they absorb the increase?" said Rajeev Dhawan, director of Georgia State University's Economic Forecasting Center. "They will either hire less people or they will do less business."

More than in any period before, businesses are likely to lay off employees and reduce hours, further fueling the economic slump in states seeing double-digit unemployment rates, fiscal conservatives and some economists say.

Minimum wage advocates counter the wage bump will keep more working poor afloat, and say more increases are needed to help stimulate consumer spending and strengthen businesses in the long run.

It's an old policy debate that resurfaced when Congress passed the increase two years ago and has taken on urgency as the nation's fiscal funk has deepened.

In the end, it's the workers and their employers who find themselves caught in the middle.

At Bench Warmers Bar and Grill in the southeast Kansas farming town of Chanute (pronounced sha-NOOT), owner Cathy Matney has decided to let some of her dishwashers go rather than pay all 22 of her employees more.

"It's bad timing," said Matney, whose waitresses and cooks will have to pitch in with scrubbing pots and pans. "With the economy like this, there's a lot of people who are out of work and this is only going to add to it."

Ryan Arfmann, who owns a Jamba Juice shop in Idaho Falls, Idaho, will be cutting hours to his staff, which is made up largely of college students, high schoolers and homemakers who want to make a few bucks.

"Am I going to fire anybody, no," Arfmann said. "But kids understand there's going to be hours cut."

Arfmann said he wishes the increase was spread out over a few more years, to make it easier for him to absorb the costs. He also is concerned that he'll end up having to give everybody raises just to maintain pay differentials between employees.

"People who are already getting paid above $7.25 are going to feel like they need raises as well," he said. "It's harder for me to reward employees that are doing well because of minimum wage being so high."

Backers of the increase say it's long overdue for millions of the nation's working poor. Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., authored the 2007 minimum wage legislation, which increased pay for the first time in a decade.

"A higher minimum wage helps working families' budgets and results in increased spending on local business, which is good for everyone," Miller said in an e-mail. He did not say whether he would have pushed to raise the minimum wage in an economic climate like the current one, and he did not immediately respond to a message left Thursday with his spokesman.

Miller's view is a tough sell to employers of minimum wage workers -- from hotels to daycares to burger chains -- who find themselves having to cut larger paychecks as their revenues continue to shrink. The effects could be especially harsh in the seven states -- Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee -- where the pay increase coincides with double-digit unemployment.

"Wherever you have the higher unemployment rates, that's where the business conditions are bad -- and that's where a minimum wage increase will have an impact on the negative side," said Dhawan, the economist at Georgia State.

Dhawan said the strain could be felt equally in metropolitan areas, where fast-food chains and franchises employ large numbers of minimum wage workers, and in smaller towns where the bulk of the work force may be concentrated in one, low-earning sector.

Fewer workers employed, meanwhile, reduces the amount of money in circulation -- dampening any consumer spending spike the wage boost could have created, Dhawan said.

"The increasing power from the higher wages will be swamped by the losses from the people who lost jobs," he said.

Marilynn Winn, an Atlanta woman who earns $6.75 an hour -- a couple of dimes more than the current $6.55 federal minimum -- driving cars between auto auctions, worries the pay boost could lead her boss to make cuts, especially to older workers like herself.

Still, she said she'd be grateful for the raise if she gets to keep her job.

"We could use more, the more the better," said Winn, 58.

Sara Campbell, who earns roughly $786 a month cleaning event spaces in Atlanta, said she's unlikely to spend any money she gets from the minimum wage increase, especially since she worries her hours will get cut.

"You never know," she said. "You might lose your job. They might start laying off and if they lay off, I'll have something saved up."

Played out across enough businesses, that pattern could stunt economic recovery nationwide, said Moody's economist John Lonski.

"You're going to get fewer jobs created," said Lonski, who predicted national unemployment would peak at 10.5 percent in the first quarter of 2010. "It's not a backbreaker for the U.S. economy, but it doesn't help stabilize employment, especially since most businesses now suffer from much lower than expected sales."

It's hardly the first time a wage increase has prompted doom and gloom predictions from economists, who point to conventional business thinking that supports the idea that higher costs plus lower revenue equals a shrinking work force.

More upbeat predictions suggest the wage increase could actually play a role in turning around the nation's finances. Labor Secretary Hilda Solis said Thursday that the wage increase will generate an extra $5.5 billion in consumer spending over the next year.

Economists have largely overlooked the positive effect on consumer buying power, according to Holly Sklar, senior policy adviser for Let Justice Roll, a national campaign aimed at increasing the minimum wage to $10 by 2010.

A further wage increase could eventually become a reality: One of President Barack Obama's campaign promises included raising the minimum wage to $9.50 an hour by 2011.

"You can't have an economy that's based heavily on consumer purchasing power, and at the same time, not pay the consumer enough to live on," Sklar said.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:31 AM
quote:
quote:
How, exactly?


Really? You don't understand that an increase in wages will cost jobs and increase the price of goods? Try econ 101. What did they teach you in school? Your financail IQ is just about on par with OTF. WoW!



Now what do you want to discuss about my financial IQ?

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:32 AM
quote:
Really? CNN? The head talking points for the CFR. Find someone that isn't tied to the destruction of capitalism and our democracy to validate your points. That propoganda is **** .

Try using some plain common sense to boot. It really is simple math. Businesses will get more efficient (cut jobs) or pass it on to the consumer. Someone is going to pay and it won't be the business that this "tax" is affecting. It might seem small, 70 cents, but try adding that cost up over a year and multiplying it by the number of employees, and it will add up to thousands of dollars over the course of a year. People will lose jobs and the price of consumer goods will go up.

Because you can't destroy a democracy overnight, it takes time, and your kids money!



LOL

As opposed to a youtube soundbyte

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:39 AM
Can someone tell me what CFR is?

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:42 AM
Council on Foreign Relations

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:43 AM
From Wiki:

The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is an American bipartisan foreign policy membership organization founded in 1921. Located at 58 East 68th Street (Park Avenue) in New York City, with an office in Washington, D.C. Some international journalists believe it to be 'the most influential foreign-policy think tank.' [1][2][3][4] It publishes a bi-monthly journal Foreign Affairs. It has an extensive website, featuring links to its think tank, The David Rockefeller Studies Program, a new geoeconomic center, Emmy award-winning multimedia Crisis Guides Foreign Affairs, and many other projects, publications, history, biographies of notable directors and other board members, corporate members, and press releases.[5]

The Council's mission is promoting understanding of foreign policy and the United States' role in the world. Meetings are convened at which government officials, global leaders and prominent members debate major foreign-policy issues. It has a think tank that employs prominent scholars in international affairs and it commissions subsequent books and reports. A central aim of the Council, it states, is to "find and nurture the next generation of foreign policy leaders." It established "Independent Task Forces" in 1995, which encourage policy debate. Comprising experts with diverse backgrounds and expertise, these task forces seek consensus in making policy recommendations on critical issues; to date, the Council has convened more than fifty times.[5]

The internal think tank is The David Rockefeller Studies Program, which grants fellowships and whose programs are described as being integral to the goal of contributing to the ongoing debate on foreign policy; fellows in this program research and write on the most important challenges facing the United States and the world.[6]

At the outset of the organization, founding member Elihu Root said the group's mission, epitomized in its journal Foreign Affairs, should be to "guide" American public opinion. In the early 1970s, the CFR changed the mission, saying that it wished instead to "inform" public opinion.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Foreign_Relations

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:44 AM
Part of my point, Jerry, is that this argument is as old as the minimum wage itself and there's great disagreement within the discipline. Nothing new here and hence, no reason to get your panties in a wad about it. Personally, I've never been convinced that it's the job destroyer some have claimed it to be. In my ten years of experience in working for the NYS Dept. of Labor in primarily upstate, NY, I've never seen job losses resulting from a raise in the minimum wage. Other factors, absolutely! Now, to be fair, our local economy used to be dominated by gov't service jobs(local, state, and federal), industrial manufacturing, and agriculture. Typically, those sectors pay far above minimum wage.
 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:47 AM
quote:
From Wiki:

The Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) is an American bipartisan foreign policy membership organization founded in 1921. Located at 58 East 68th Street (Park Avenue) in New York City, with an office in Washington, D.C. Some international journalists believe it to be 'the most influential foreign-policy think tank.' [1][2][3][4] It publishes a bi-monthly journal Foreign Affairs. It has an extensive website, featuring links to its think tank, The David Rockefeller Studies Program, a new geoeconomic center, Emmy award-winning multimedia Crisis Guides Foreign Affairs, and many other projects, publications, history, biographies of notable directors and other board members, corporate members, and press releases.[5]

The Council's mission is promoting understanding of foreign policy and the United States' role in the world. Meetings are convened at which government officials, global leaders and prominent members debate major foreign-policy issues. It has a think tank that employs prominent scholars in international affairs and it commissions subsequent books and reports. A central aim of the Council, it states, is to "find and nurture the next generation of foreign policy leaders." It established "Independent Task Forces" in 1995, which encourage policy debate. Comprising experts with diverse backgrounds and expertise, these task forces seek consensus in making policy recommendations on critical issues; to date, the Council has convened more than fifty times.[5]

The internal think tank is The David Rockefeller Studies Program, which grants fellowships and whose programs are described as being integral to the goal of contributing to the ongoing debate on foreign policy; fellows in this program research and write on the most important challenges facing the United States and the world.[6]

At the outset of the organization, founding member Elihu Root said the group's mission, epitomized in its journal Foreign Affairs, should be to "guide" American public opinion. In the early 1970s, the CFR changed the mission, saying that it wished instead to "inform" public opinion.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Foreign_Relations

What an insidious group!

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:53 AM
quote:
Council on Foreign Relations


Ah, I should have realized it would be some craziness... thanks!

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 08:57 AM
quote:
Because you can't destroy a democracy overnight, it takes time, and your kids money!


All due respect, JPB. I'd like to ask you a serious question since you finish every post with this sentence.

When it comes to the organizations frequently mentioned as having control of the world, the Freemasons, the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, Bilderberg, CFR, Bohemian Grove (that's one I'll never figure out), all of these have been around for decades, if not hundreds of years. The Freemasons began in either the late 16th or early 17th century. The Rothschilds have been a power since the 1700s. John Rockefeller founded Standard Oil in 1870. The first Bilderberg Conference was in 1954. The CFR has been around since 1921. The first Bohemian Grove encampment was in 1872.

My point and question being, why the sense of urgency and claiming that democracy is in danger now? Can one not logically conclude that if these organizations have been so powerful for so long, that perhaps the "right" version of democracy that is in danger of being destroyed is actually the concept they came up with to begin with? Has the world been a mere pawn and plaything of theirs for collectively hundreds of years?

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 09:17 AM
quote:
Bohemian Grove (that's one I'll never figure out),


Is that the place where Newt Gingrich runs around in his tighty whities?

 

True Peach



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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 09:23 AM
quote:
Can someone tell me what CFR is?


Capitalists for Republicans?

we (RI) raised our min. wage a while ago. If I'm not mistaken, it's higher than that seven and a quarter.

btw, we also have the highest unemployment rate in the universe.

go figure.

 

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  posted on 7/24/2009 at 09:23 AM
quote:
quote:
Bohemian Grove (that's one I'll never figure out),


Is that the place where Newt Gingrich runs around in his tighty whities?


Yeah...ever read about it? It's kinda funny and bizarre at the same time. Nixon called it the "most faggy goddamned thing you'll ever see," but then he also said he gave some of his best speeches there. The highlight of the annual event is the Cremation of Care ceremony (with the PA narration by Walter Cronkite, interestingly) where there is this big torch and robe ceremony in front of a giant stone owl:



Ironic thing is, given certain screennames, Bob Weir is a member...

 

____________________
"Live every week like it's Shark Week." - Tracy Jordan

 
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