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Sublime Peach





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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 07:27 AM


[Edited on 8/20/2009 by jerryphilbob]

 
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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 07:33 AM
You voted for change, but you had no idea it was going to go down like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW2HSGtiuoE

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 07:48 AM
quote:
He is going to tell us all how bad our health care system is and if we don't "change" we are going to bankrupt the country.



I was thinking about this last night. How many times can the American public fall for "if we don't do this now, X will happen!!" Incidentally, I don't mean that as a knock on Obama as it really started before he took office. He just picked up on it.

I think we all agree that the system needs to be fixed, but can't we just do it a little at a time instead ramming the whole thing through by August? Will the sun not rise if this doesn't get done this year?


I see all the proposed surcharges (tax) on the "wealthy". I know people will say oh the poor millionaires, but suppose you a person making the $5 million a year with a family. Allegedly, as the bill stands now (which I think it will look very different when all is said and done), you will be hit with $440,000 in taxes!! That is insane anyway you slice it. Even families making less than $1million will allegedly be hit with a sizeable tax as the plan stands now. Pelosi said she wants to make it a "millionaires tax". Now think about living in NYC with two children and you make a million dollars a year. You are essentially middle class in NYC if you make a million a year and you have two children. I guess to her credit she is trying to raise the bar slightly so families and people with lower incomes don't get hit. The whole reminded me of an email recently. I don't know the origins, but I think my email said it was some professor (I can't verify that). I thought it was a fun read nonetheless. Bar stool economics!!

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers, he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. What happens to the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’ They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

‘I only got a dollar out of the $20,’ declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, ‘But he got $10!’

‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!’

‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’

‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important.

They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 08:38 AM
Moral of the story: Make sure the rich have everything their heart desires or they might take their ball and go overseas.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 08:38 AM
quote:
Moral of the story: Make sure the rich have everything their heart desires or they might take their ball and go overseas.


Which, if they can make more money, will go overseas anyway.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 08:39 AM
JPB, are you saying there is nothing wrong with the current system? If so, you shouldn't be so scared. Nothing is going to change on healthcare.

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 08:50 AM
quote:
Will the sun not rise if this doesn't get done this year?


No, the sun will still rise, but, people will also continue to suffer needlessly. Are you good with that?

quote:
Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore.


Where the hell are they going to go to avoid taxes? Let them go ex-pat, good riddance to bad rubbish. after what they have done to this country, I am for a 90% tax on the bastids. The one percent of the country who have reaped the benefits of America far beyond what 99% of the citizens ever can even dream to attain don't want to pay their fair share, then to hell with them. When people are ripped off and scammed by these masters of the universe, and the country ends up in a heap, then it is time for agonizing reappraisal. Instead, we get people telling us that 5 million is not enough to raise a family on and are in fact middle class and an extra 3 or 4 percent in tax will destroy the country. Does anyone actually buy that BS? Does the poor millionaire story seem sane to anyone? Not me, I think it is insane, but then, I am nought but a dirty **** ing hippie, so I am the one that is insane, I guess. Jeezus.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 09:13 AM
quote:
He is going to tell us all how bad our health care system is and if we don't "change" we are going to bankrupt the country. I am still waiting to hear details about what changes will be made and how it will be better than our current system. I will bet they will make changes to the bill in the midnight hour and not give anyone a chance to read the bill, but if we don't sign it, we will all be doomed. I will also be willing to bet that we will have a "choice" and that it won't cost us anything. What a liar. There will be no choice and it will cost us all dearly.

I am still waiting to hear what system in the world is better than ours? I am still waiting to hear how spending 1.5 Trillion dollars is going to save us money and be a better system than what we already have. No health care system is going to be perfect, but government run anything can't be better than the current health care that we already know and enjoy. I guess if they tell you enough times that something is broken, maybe you will start to believe it. Kinda like climate change. How is that cap and trade bill doing?

Because you can't destroy a democracy overnight, it takes time, and your kids money.

[Edited on 7/22/2009 by jerryphilbob]


If you haven't yet figured out what is wrong with our health care system, then nothing anyone on this board can say will clear it up for you.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 09:17 AM
Surely we all remember the story of the Little Boy Who Cried Wolf, yes?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 09:50 AM
quote:
No, the sun will still rise, but, people will also continue to suffer needlessly. Are you good with that?


Who is suffering needlessly?

I am not denying that the system needs some fixing, however, there is a myth that people are suffering needlessly. There is no healthcare crisis in the US, there is a health insurance crisis. No one is suffering needlessly because everyone can get care, they must be treated. There are a number of issues contributing to healthcare costs, yet I have not read much about them in the recent debate.

Tort reform might be a good place to start in helping this problem. Liability insurance because of insane lawsuits is out of control. So doctors then charge us (actually our insurance companies) absurd fees to cover their costs. Obviously, when the insurance companies receive these high fees it is in their best interest to not pay or reimburse the insured consumer. Pharmaceutical companies are another huge problem. Its never enough for them to make a profit, they make a killing. A pill that cost them $10 to manufacture is sold for $100. When the insurance companies get the bill for these medications, again, they will attempt to find a way to absorb the costs.

Between absurd physician fees, exorbitant pharmaceutical fees and out of control health insurance fees, consumers often cannot afford the health care they need. As I see it, there is also a need for competition (and not from the government), as it ensures the public is better educated about preventative health care and treatment options. Competition in the pharmaceutical market would force down drug prices and expand cheaper generic drug alternatives.

quote:
I am for a 90% tax on the bastids.


Getting off topic a little, but a tax policy that takes 100% of the taxable income of everyone in America earning over $500,000 would probably only give Congress an extra $1.3 trillion in revenue. What are they planning on spending in fiscal 2010 again? Hmm, seems like someone else will also have to foot the bill for all of these sweeping programs. Where do they go after they have taken 100% of the taxable income of the wealthiest? Where do they go if they take your proposed 90%? Its time we all start doing the math and stop being emotional about this.


quote:
after what they have done to this country,


What have THEY done? How did THEY make people overconsume, or how did THEY make the government not enforce the rules on the books?

quote:
When people are ripped off and scammed by these masters of the universe, and the country ends up in a heap, then it is time for agonizing reappraisal.


No, its time for the government to stop propping up businesses which got over on people instead of continuing to pump money into failed, corrupt businesses. In a true free market, that's what happens; when a bad business person tries to get one over on the consumer and the consumer realizes it, they don't go back to that business, they tell their friends about that business and the business eventually is no more and is replaced by a better business.

quote:
Does the poor millionaire story seem sane to anyone?



Have you ever lived in NYC with 2 or 3 children?



 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 09:56 AM
quote:
No one is suffering needlessly because everyone can get care, they must be treated.


No. That's simply not true. The only thing that "must" happen is that everyone is entitled to see a doctor and receive a diagnosis in the emergency room.

quote:
Obviously, when the insurance companies receive these high fees it is in their best interest to not pay or reimburse the insured consumer. Pharmaceutical companies are another huge problem. Its never enough for them to make a profit, they make a killing. A pill that cost them $10 to manufacture is sold for $100. When the insurance companies get the bill for these medications, again, they will attempt to find a way to absorb the costs.



I thought it was bad to tell businesses how to run their business?

quote:
Competition in the pharmaceutical market would force down drug prices and expand cheaper generic drug alternatives.



There isn't competition now? Not following ya here...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 10:13 AM
quote:
quote:
Moral of the story: Make sure the rich have everything their heart desires or they might take their ball and go overseas.


Which, if they can make more money, will go overseas anyway.


Great point.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 10:14 AM
I think everyone should have the same plan that Congress has or that Congress should be forced to use what they are debating giving us.

 

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Missing- 245 spines. If found, please send one to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and the rest to the Capitol building care of the Democratic Party.

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 10:21 AM
I am not saying our system is perfect, but which one is? Like I said, if they keep telling you there is a crisis, you just might start to believe it.

Please tell me what country has a better system than the USA?

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 10:24 AM
quote:
I am not saying our system is perfect, but which one is? Like I said, if they keep telling you there is a crisis, you just might start to believe it.

Please tell me what country has a better system than the USA?


Depends on how you define better.

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 11:49 AM
quote:
Surely we all remember the story of the Little Boy Who Cried Wolf, yes?


Sayeth the the biggest little boy who cries wolf incessantly.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 11:54 AM
quote:
Surely we all remember the story of the Little Boy Who Cried Wolf, yes?
Yes. Around here we call him by his given names ... JPB, RBK ... you choose.

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 11:58 AM
quote:
or how did THEY make the government not enforce the rules on the books?



Seriously? What does it say about people who create a disaster and then say you let me do it? Fiduciary responsibility must mean something different than what I was taught.

quote:
when a bad business person tries to get one over on the consumer and the consumer realizes it, they don't go back to that business,


Tell that to the people whose investments and retirement went up in smoke. That point of view seems to be in a world very insulated from reality.

quote:
Have you ever lived in NYC with 2 or 3 children?


My heart is bleeding for them. Have you ever tried to raise a family anywhere on 50K a year? A little closer to most people's reality than the poor Manhattan millionaire.


 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 12:13 PM
quote:
quote:
I am not saying our system is perfect, but which one is? Like I said, if they keep telling you there is a crisis, you just might start to believe it.

Please tell me what country has a better system than the USA?


Depends on how you define better.


Hopefully by not using life expectancy as an indicator. Murder, suicide, and auto accidents (three factors that have little to do with the quality of our healthcare) skew our numbers to the downside. Those may point to other problems, but quality of the healthcare we receive is not one of them.

And hopefully tonight, the president will cite some numbers on the amount of people leaving the US for medical procedures they are having trouble getting here, as compared to the amount that come here for the same procedures.

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 12:23 PM
how many people here know anyone that has the LEFT the USA to have a medical procedure done because it was too costly here or couldn't get it done in a timely manner?

I would venture to say that you are going to have a hard time finding anyone. This is all about control and nothing to do with health care. I told you they want to control you thru the "green movement", production (auto), insurance, housing, cap & trade, and now health care. Our freedoms are being smashed and people are not only accepting it, they are asking for it? They control you thru the media and people just can't get enough of the kool aid. If they say it enough times, you just might start to believe it. THERE IS NO CRISIS in healthcare. NONE!

Because you can't destroy a democracy overnight, it takes time, and your kids money!

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 12:30 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I am not saying our system is perfect, but which one is? Like I said, if they keep telling you there is a crisis, you just might start to believe it.

Please tell me what country has a better system than the USA?


Depends on how you define better.


Hopefully by not using life expectancy as an indicator. Murder, suicide, and auto accidents (three factors that have little to do with the quality of our healthcare) skew our numbers to the downside. Those may point to other problems, but quality of the healthcare we receive is not one of them.

And hopefully tonight, the president will cite some numbers on the amount of people leaving the US for medical procedures they are having trouble getting here, as compared to the amount that come here for the same procedures.


Well, you guys are going to get what you want in the end. Nothing is going to happen on healthcare. Nothing at all.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 12:32 PM
quote:
how many people here know anyone that has the LEFT the USA to have a medical procedure done because it was too costly here or couldn't get it done in a timely manner?



I know a several people that have left the country with rare conditions for treatments and surgeries that are not available here.

quote:
They control you thru the media and people just can't get enough of the kool aid.


I'm sitting in a hospital right now. I don't need the media to tell me what I see every single day.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 12:39 PM
quote:
Tell that to the people whose investments and retirement went up in smoke.


Quite frankly, if money and retirement is that important to people, they should have educated themselves on the topic. There were a number of people who made a lot of money in this downturn because they were educated investors. People in this country need to stop pointing their fingers at other people whenever something goes wrong. We need to start looking in the mirror. WAAAA, some greedy banker took my retirement money, waaaa I got an adjustable low rate mortgage when interest rates have nowhere to go but up, waaaa I can't pay my credit card because I rang up ten of thousands in debt and now the credit card company is charging me absurd rates, WAAA Madoff took my money because I gave it to him without a shred of due diligence and the recommendation came from someone at my country club!!

Its time for personal responsibility. I lost plenty, both in my personal taxable account and my retirement account, or it went up in smoke as you say. Yes, it hurts. However, not once did I say to myself, its someone else's fault. There were things I could have done better. I could have done a number of things to limit my losses, but perhaps fear and greed got the best of me. At the end of the day, hopefully I learned from MY mistakes.


 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 12:41 PM
Interesting. I see a lot of the usual snarkey deflections on the part of the Obamabots but no one seems to be defending him anymore. They certainly aren't pointing out his successes.

 

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As a patriot and a loyal member of the opposition I pledge to offer our new President the very same benefit of the doubt and unwavering support that the left offered George Bush over the last eight years.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/22/2009 at 12:45 PM
quote:
I am not saying our system is perfect, but which one is? Like I said, if they keep telling you there is a crisis, you just might start to believe it.

Please tell me what country has a better system than the USA?
Belize?

 

____________________
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