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Author: Subject: Obama Threatens To Use Veto

Zen Peach





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  posted on 7/13/2009 at 08:34 PM
....so he can kill a military project, the F-22 fighter jet. Here's the wack part- Senators Kennedy and Kerry disagree and want the jet production to go ahead. McCain agrees with Obama as the Pentagon wants the money for unmanned drones. The problem is- does Obama want to cut the jets to go for the drones, or go for more government programs.

quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/us/politics/14defense.html


By CHRISTOPHER DREW
Published: July 13, 2009

President Obama placed his political capital on the line Monday and reiterated his threat to veto a military spending bill unless the Senate removed $1.75 billion set aside to buy seven additional F-22 fighter jets.

Mr. Obama stepped up his campaign after liberal Democrats like Senators Edward M. Kennedy and John Kerry of Massachusetts said they supported the purchases, arguing that the program would retain high-paying jobs in many districts nationwide.

The F-22, the world’s costliest fighter jet, is the most prominent weapons system that Mr. Obama wants to cancel or cut in his plan to rein in military spending. A vote by the Senate to keep producing the plane would be an embarrassing setback for him.

Military analysts say it has always been hard to persuade Congress to halt big weapons programs like the F-22, made by Lockheed Martin, which has suppliers in 44 states and provides 25,000 jobs.

Congress has agreed with Mr. Obama’s plans to cut more experimental programs like missile defense. But support for the F-22 has strengthened recently. As the Senate took up debate on the bill on Monday, Senate leaders said it was hard to predict how the vote would go.

Senator Carl Levin, Democrat of Michigan and chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and Senator John McCain of Arizona, the panel’s top Republican, are leading the fight to cap F-22 production at 187 planes.

Their committee voted 13-11 in late June to add the money for the seven additional planes. But Mr. Levin and Mr. McCain, who was Mr. Obama’s opponent in the 2008 election, voted against that measure, and they filed an amendment on Monday to remove the money from the bill.

In a letter to Mr. McCain on Monday, Mr. Obama wrote that Pentagon leaders “do not need these planes.”

The Pentagon would rather buy unmanned aircraft to gather intelligence in Afghanistan and accelerate the testing for the F-35, a new plane designed to attack ground targets. Pentagon officials say the F-22 is hard to maintain and costs $44,000 to operate for an hour, compared with $30,000 for older planes.

But many Republicans in Congress say more F-22s, which were designed for aerial combat, are needed as a hedge against countries like China.

And a growing number of Democrats are questioning why the administration would let such high-paying union jobs go when it is spending billions to save or create other jobs.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2009 at 08:45 PM
Interesting.....I can't quite figure out what the problem is. If the pentagon wants something else, seems like a better use of money to create jobs for more cost cutting programs.

 

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  posted on 7/13/2009 at 09:43 PM
quote:
The problem is- does Obama want to cut the jets to go for the drones, or go for more government programs.


Well, gosh, what does Rush say? One day you complain he wont use the veto, then when he says he might use it, you complain.

More "government programs" such as what? Give some examples of these programs that seem to be of such concern.

[Edited on 7/14/2009 by SquatchTexas]

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2009 at 10:15 PM
Senators Kennedy and Kerry want to keep the F-22 because much of them are made in Massachusetts, so it is them just looking out for their constituents. But let's face it, this is a very expensive jet and the money can be better spent on other projects. Good to see Obama using a veto threat. It took Bush a long time before he did it.
 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 08:09 AM
Who's to say Congress won't eventually override Obama's threaten veto? Any program that provides 25,000 jobs in 44 states is going to be hard to kill. I can almost see Lockheed Martin next ad if Obama "veto" this bill. Something along the lines of taking American jobs and weakening America's defense. Obama might want to think long and hard about the "political consequences" of such a "veto", especially with the 2010 mid-term elections coming up and unemployment rising. You can bet that those in Congress who states and districts have jobs that are connected with this contract with Lockheed Martin are thinking about those "political consequences". Truth be told, voters often vote their pocketbooks, and the savvy politician knows "that he that brings (and protects) jobs" is the one most likely to be re-elected.
 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 08:41 AM
Very interesting. Really amazing how people pick and choose what government spending they get outraged about.

Bailouts are unconstitutional. Spending X amount of dollars on a recovery website is the hallmark of government spending ineptitude.

Ordering more Raptors that quick research has shown end up costing the government $339 million per aircraft...aircraft the Pentagon and Secretary Gates don't even want? No problem! Ring those suckers up! We'll take a dozen!

I also doubt Lockheed Martin will go out of business anytime soon, regardless of how the vote goes.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 09:16 AM
Bhawk,

I wonder how many people work jobs that are somehow to connected with a defense contract? And the conventional wisdom of such people with such jobs is "If Lockheed Martin loses a contract because of a "Presidential Veto", who's to say the contract that I'm working on won't be lost by the same means?" More and more of these jobs are being lost, and they're not being replaced by jobs that offer similar pay and benefits. For those working the F-22 project, it's going to be extremely difficult for them to find a comparable job when that contract ends. Basically, when the contract ends, your job ends, unless there is another contract you can sign on to. And unfortunately, there not many of those "follow on" contracts nowadays. Also, the skill set necessary to many of these jobs, is not easilly transferrable to other job areas as they are extremely specialized. An example would be an engineer who has spent 15 - 20 years specializing in aircraft weapon systems. Were those a guy with those skills go to, unless there is another contract he can sign on to, and just as important, would you lose the knowledge and experience that this person has acquired?

Politically, Obama can't afforded the "political fallout" of these people losing their jobs, especially with unemployment hovering at 10%.

[Edited on 7/14/2009 by sibwlkr]

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 11:01 AM
I don't see why it would be so difficult to re-tool the plants to make something the military actually wants. Jobs and money both saved....it could work.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 11:21 AM
quote:
Bhawk,

I wonder how many people work jobs that are somehow to connected with a defense contract? And the conventional wisdom of such people with such jobs is "If Lockheed Martin loses a contract because of a "Presidential Veto", who's to say the contract that I'm working on won't be lost by the same means?" More and more of these jobs are being lost, and they're not being replaced by jobs that offer similar pay and benefits. For those working the F-22 project, it's going to be extremely difficult for them to find a comparable job when that contract ends. Basically, when the contract ends, your job ends, unless there is another contract you can sign on to. And unfortunately, there not many of those "follow on" contracts nowadays. Also, the skill set necessary to many of these jobs, is not easilly transferrable to other job areas as they are extremely specialized. An example would be an engineer who has spent 15 - 20 years specializing in aircraft weapon systems. Were those a guy with those skills go to, unless there is another contract he can sign on to, and just as important, would you lose the knowledge and experience that this person has acquired?

Politically, Obama can't afforded the "political fallout" of these people losing their jobs, especially with unemployment hovering at 10%.

[Edited on 7/14/2009 by sibwlkr]


You are right, but I'm talking about the folks that will (and are) taking Obama to task for this and the prospect of defense industry jobs lost are the exact same people that very loudly stated that everyone at GM and Chrysler losing their jobs was the right thing to do for the good of the economy and the country...and how many jobs are connected to the automotive sector? More than defense, I'll bet...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 11:39 AM
What if they just cleared out the plants and hired the people to start over making the drones? It doesn't seem like a good use of money to continue making something the pentagon doesn't want and that costs more to maintain than other jets when it could be spent on other things. People would still have to make the machines to make the drones and run the machines to make the drones or whatever.

I'm genuinely wondering why it can't be done and still save the jobs.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 12:32 PM
I readily admit I know little to nothing about industry.........but if anyone whats to know the ups and downs of being a self employed business of two, I'll be glad to share.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 12:37 PM
Meanwhile, Obama said he wanted to kill these remaining jets because even the Pentagon doesn't want them. That is true as they want more emphasis on non-manned drones at this time. But, considering the drone's role in Afghanistan and Pakistan and the uptick in battles and deaths in that war- does Obama want the money for the needed drones or not?? If he is doing this to cut spending, then the taxpayers money wouldn't be spent at all. I'm guessing that is not what were talking about here. Does Obama want the money to go to the drones as he ratchets up Afghanistan? Does he want it to go to deficit? Is he throwing an anti-military bone to the wonderful Left in this country?? Does he want the money to go to other government programs?? Which is it??

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 01:30 PM
Well? What is it?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 01:39 PM
quote:
Well? What is it?


Beats the sh!t outta me, personally. The President is in Michigan at the moment. I'm in KC. Maybe I'll hop in the car and scoot over to St. Louis later on this evening and ask him what he thinks.

 

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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 01:45 PM
Give him a fist bump for me when you see him, will ya?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 01:46 PM
quote:
Give him a fist bump for me when you see him, will ya?


Absolutely. I just hope he doesn't flub the first pitch.

 

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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 01:48 PM
Don't worry if he does you can let him know that "we" on the
Whipping Post have our eye on him!

[Edited on 7/14/2009 by PattyG]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 01:55 PM
quote:
Well? What is it?





I don't know.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 01:56 PM
It reminds me of a Toll Road To Nowhere we are fighting locally. The state is paying for Toll Road studies that cost tax payers millions of dollars and the elected officials are saying there is no money to pay for the toll road. WTF????

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 03:10 PM
I guess fiscal stupidity trickles down. We had a historic bridge that people wanted to preserve when the new one was built. They were going to take out the middle part and let businesses put a restaurant, shops, etc. on the part close to land so people could stroll out there and shop and eat. The city council was worried the revenue wouldn't cover the extimated 40K a year it would cost in upkeep......forget that there were already businesses committed to the project. So, they spent about 80K to blow up the bridge and remove the debris then spent 100K on a study as to how to promote tourism. Guess what the report read......develop the water front area. After that I gave up on local politics.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 05:10 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Well? What is it?





I don't know.


The first thing you have ever posted that made sense.


I was going to post that same thing but I saved it for you.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 05:16 PM
So just wondering how will this effect the jobs saved calculations?
 

True Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2009 at 05:37 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Well? What is it?





I don't know.


The first thing you have ever posted that made sense.


2nd time this month I've had to wipe the Pepsi off my monitor screen.

 

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  posted on 7/15/2009 at 08:28 AM
quote:


More "government programs" such as what? Give some examples of these programs that seem to be of such concern.




The modern day equivalent of Midnight Basketball. You know, the usual.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 7/15/2009 at 10:09 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:


More "government programs" such as what? Give some examples of these programs that seem to be of such concern.




The modern day equivalent of Midnight Basketball. You know, the usual.


As usual, RBK has nothing to add. Go away child, the adults are talking. If we need a turd for the middle of the room, we will call you, a-hole.

[Edited on 7/15/2009 by old_time_fan]


Saul Alinskey's Rules for Radicals...

RULE 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.

Well done, Comrade.

 

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