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Author: Subject: Criticizing/questioning Obama vs. criticizing/questioning Bush

A Peach Supreme





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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 11:25 AM


[Edited on 10/15/2009 by Billastro]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 11:43 AM
Eight years...vs.

Four months... let's give it some time

The Bush/Cheney team had 8 years to make this many mistakes.

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 11:45 AM
Billastro,

Have to agree with you on this. To many Democrats they got their Messiah, and unfortunately when you a make a person somewhat of a "deity" then it stands to reason that any criticizng/questioning of that person will be seen somewhat as a "heresy", and must be quickly silenced.

It'll be interesting to see how strong this faith remains futher on down the road.

quote:
The Easy Part Is Over
By Ruth Marcus
Sunday, April 26, 2009

The first 100 days of a presidency are like the opening chapter of an unfinished novel. It will be possible, by the end, to look back and see the foreshadowing of character traits and plot twists, but for now it is too early to predict what direction the story will take.

You can read the first pages of the Barack Obama opus and construct opposing narratives. The young, naive president, having inherited a full plate, foolishly chooses to pile it higher. Unschooled in the ways of Washington, he arrogantly overestimates his powers of gentle persuasion, undervalues the entrenched forces arrayed against him and, Icarus-like, crashes. This could have been predicted from the opening days, when he signaled weakness by proposing politically difficult steps and then backing down (see: farm subsidies) or misjudging the fallout from actions and words (see: torture commission).

Or, the young president, preternaturally calm and canny beyond his years in Washington, lays out an ambitious agenda with full awareness that he will not obtain all he seeks but knowing that seeds have to be planted before they can grow. He keeps his eyes on the prize -- health-care reform -- without alienating potential allies by dictating carved-in-stone details. Not everything on his to-do list is checked off by the end of his first term, nor did he expect it to be, but the broad outlines of success linger beyond the specific features of failure. Everyone remembers, after all, that George W. Bush got his tax cuts -- not that he failed to achieve his original dollar target.

At this moment, either of these story lines is plausible, which is why the truly hard work of the Obama presidency lies ahead. As difficult as it was to get the stimulus package passed, deciding to spend money is what Congress does most easily, especially if a president mostly lets appropriators have their way. Herding the cats on health care will be much harder, given the competing outside interests and inside demands. Passing a cap-and-trade plan to curb greenhouse gases, given the economic stakes and regional divisions, will make health care look simple.

Getting applause in Europe or South America is easy in the relieved aftermath of the Bush years; the proof will be in the ability to persuade allies to commit troops or money or even display backbone at the United Nations. Reaching out to Cuba or Iran is simple. The trick lies in calibrating the proper course in the aftermath of those overtures, when the outstretched hand is greeted, as it was in the case of Iran, by a slap in the face.

In other words, the first 100 days was the easy part.

When I said this to a senior administration official the other day, I worried that, after 90-plus days of round-the-clock work, and some not insubstantial achievements, he was apt to take my head off.

Instead, he agreed with the point, and he kept returning to it.

Some of the heavy lifting ahead is the result of a deliberate and eminently sensible strategy to push off tough or controversial choices -- kind of like taking an "incomplete" in a college course but knowing that you'll have to write the paper over Christmas break. For instance, the president said he wanted to close Guantanamo; the hard part will be figuring out how to deal with the prisoners remaining there. (Hint of difficulty: France agreed to take one.)

Similarly, the president reaffirmed his promise to end the military's policy of "don't ask, don't tell." But the administration avoided the opening-weeks mess in which the Clinton team found itself by announcing that the reversal, which would require a change in the law, was coming -- but not right now. As Defense Secretary Robert Gates told Fox News Sunday last month, "The president and I feel like we've got a lot on our plates right now and let's push that one down the road a little bit."

At some point, though, the road runs out.

Pick your issue, domestic or foreign: While the first 100 days served to set the stage and dispense with preliminaries, the harder work is ahead. To take a big one, the prospects for major health-care overhaul are as auspicious as they've been in years -- and if the final result reflects a major expansion of coverage and serious efforts at containing costs, it will be a huge achievement even if it falls short of covering every American. But the road there is seeded with land mines, in plain sight but still potentially lethal. Will insurance options include a government-run plan? How will expansion be paid for?

"The devil's in the details, and it's going to get harder as time goes on," the senior official said. And later, in an assessment decidedly devoid of Obama-like lyricism, "The future looks like a big pain in the neck."



[Edited on 4/25/2009 by sibwlkr]

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 11:49 AM
quote:
Is it my imagination, or do the RIGHTIES seem to take deep offense at anyone who knocks or questions BUSH in any way whatsoever? Considering the harsh venom the RIGHT threw at CLINTON (from this level, all the way up to the loftiest levels) during his term and after, I find the difference to be really hypocritical. It seems the RIGHT can dish it out, but they sure can't take it (I know it's a cliche, but I also know it's true).

Why is this?

Billastro



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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 11:57 AM
another attack on the left from Billy Ass Troll.



 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 12:02 PM
quote:
another attack on the left from Billy Ass Troll.
Honest to goodness, do you work at this kind of stupidity, or does it just come naturally to you? Or should I ask if your parents know you're messing with their computer?

You know what amazes me the most? That you can write something as intelligent, articulate, and reasonable as this: http://allmanbrothersband.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=92562 (and I agree with your points. I'd love to see citations, but that's a small detail. Everything fits logically given the ). Yet when I raise a legitimate question you respond in a way that isn't even close to witty or original.

I don't get it.

Billastro

[Edited on 4/25/2009 by Billastro]

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 12:04 PM
quote:
quote:
Is it my imagination, or do the RIGHTIES seem to take deep offense at anyone who knocks or questions BUSH in any way whatsoever? Considering the harsh venom the RIGHT threw at CLINTON (from this level, all the way up to the loftiest levels) during his term and after, I find the difference to be really hypocritical. It seems the RIGHT can dish it out, but they sure can't take it (I know it's a cliche, but I also know it's true).

Why is this?

Billastro
THERE. FIXED IT FOR YA.
Yow! You sure showed me! I daren't try to reply because the depth of your wit and insight will obviously place me in emotional harm's way. You must really have worked hard to come up with this. I congratulate you on your superior intellect.

BTW, criticisms of Bush didn't offend me; sometimes I agreed with them. And when they oozed down to the bottom of the barrel, I applied the old proverb: "Consider the source" and knew the knocks were worthless.

Billastro

[Edited on 4/25/2009 by Billastro]

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 12:06 PM
quote:
Yes it's definitely your imagination. But, when people are doing things like questioning Obama's citizenship, I find that offensive for reasons outside of partisan politics. That is also something that has no analogy to the criticism levied upon the Bush administration.
Why should it matter whether you, or anyone else, finds it offensive? Obama hasn't said whether or how it bothers him. Maybe you could find other things to be offended by instead of borrowing trouble.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 12:06 PM
What would either side do, if they didn't have the other side to criticize or blame for everything that's gone wrong.

Personally I think "in time" that Obama is going to shown as not all that different that George W.



[Edited on 4/25/2009 by sibwlkr]

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 12:12 PM
quote:
Billastro,

Have to agree with you on this. To many Democrats they got their Messiah, and unfortunately when you a make a person somewhat of a "deity" then it stands to reason that any criticizng/questioning of that person will be seen somewhat as a "heresy", and must be quickly silenced.

It'll be interesting to see how strong this faith remains futher on down the road.

[Edited on 4/25/2009 by sibwlkr]
Thanks. Mglowenstein, Woodsdweller, and Spacemonkey demonstrated my point.

Regardless of their opinions, the question still holds up. I hope to see some more reasoned replies but won't worry if I don't. One of the great things about getting older is that wisdom often comes as part of the package. I'm considerbly wiser than I was in my 30s. If this bothers anyone, I think I'll survive

Billastro

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 12:21 PM
quote:
You'd have an excellent point if it was the year 2017.

Get my drift?
This is my feeling, too. Billastro, comparing the events of 3 months time to those of 8 years makes absolutely no sense.

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 12:28 PM
quote:
quote:
You'd have an excellent point if it was the year 2017.

Get my drift?
This is my feeling, too. Billastro, comparing the events of 3 months time to those of 8 years makes absolutely no sense.
Why wait till the last minute?

I don't like Obama's economic plans, foreign policy, or views on abortion, to name three areas of conflict. It doesn't take much time to screw things up regardless of whether you know what you're doing. I don't know whether he's hopelessly naive, or extremely cunning. Either way, I just don't trust him to leave the country a better place than when he took office.

He may turn out to be better than I've anticipated but I think his philosophy and mine are polar opposites.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 01:18 PM
quote:
quote:
another attack on the left from Billy Ass Troll.
Honest to goodness, do you work at this kind of stupidity, or does it just come naturally to you? Or should I ask if your parents know you're messing with their computer?

You know what amazes me the most? That you can write something as intelligent, articulate, and reasonable as this: http://allmanbrothersband.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=92562 (and I agree with your points. I'd love to see citations, but that's a small detail. Everything fits logically given the ). Yet when I raise a legitimate question you respond in a way that isn't even close to witty or original.

I don't get it.

Billastro

[Edited on 4/25/2009 by Billastro]


because you always start these threads with some attack on the left.

just to rile things up mr troll.

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 02:03 PM
quote:
Is it my imagination, or do the Lefties seem to take deep offense at anyone who knocks or questions Obama in any way whatsoever? Considering the harsh venom the Left threw at Bush (from this level, all the way up to the loftiest levels) during his term and after, I find the difference to be really hypocritical. It seems the Left can dish it out, but they sure can't take it (I know it's a cliche, but I also know it's true).

Is it my imagination or does it seem ironic, or sorta pot/kettle, that somebody would start a post with the above paragraph then be surprised that it generated negative feedback from the very posters it was setting out to attack and point fingers at? Hmmm...


Was this your initial post of the day, Billastro? Nothing like getting the spoon out and stirring the pot right off the bat ...

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 03:38 PM
quote:
because you always start these threads with some attack on the left.

just to rile things up mr troll.
Wrong. It's a valid question which you avoid answering. I don't do it to rile things up but to ask the kind of question that belongs in the WP. It's not my responsibility that a small number of folks who can't control their emotions let themselves get worked up. Part of growing up and maturing involves learning how to manage ourselves in public.

Asking a question isn't attacking, it's asking a question. You're smart enough to realize that I'm going to post from a Conservative point of view. You can choose to have a problem with that, but it's not my job to make sure you feel good with whatever I write. As a final pointer, you might even want to skip my posts.

I could go on but I think you get the drift.

Billastro

[Edited on 4/25/2009 by Billastro]

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 03:50 PM
quote:
quote:
Is it my imagination, or do the Lefties seem to take deep offense at anyone who knocks or questions Obama in any way whatsoever? Considering the harsh venom the Left threw at Bush (from this level, all the way up to the loftiest levels) during his term and after, I find the difference to be really hypocritical. It seems the Left can dish it out, but they sure can't take it (I know it's a cliche, but I also know it's true).

Is it my imagination or does it seem ironic, or sorta pot/kettle, that somebody would start a post with the above paragraph then be surprised that it generated negative feedback from the very posters it was setting out to attack and point fingers at? Hmmm...


Was this your initial post of the day, Billastro? Nothing like getting the spoon out and stirring the pot right off the bat ...
What do your responses have to do with the question? Why don't you answer it, instead of horsing around?

Billastro

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 04:19 PM
quote:
quote:
because you always start these threads with some attack on the left.

just to rile things up mr troll.
Wrong. It's a valid question which you avoid answering. I don't do it to rile things up but to ask the kind of question that belongs in the WP. It's not my responsibility that a small number of folks who can't control their emotions let themselves get worked up. Part of growing up and maturing involves learning how to manage ourselves in public.

Asking a question isn't attacking, it's asking a question. You're smart enough to realize that I'm going to post from a Conservative point of view. You can choose to have a problem with that, but it's not my job to make sure you feel good with whatever I write. As a final pointer, you might even want to skip my posts.

I could go on but I think you get the drift.

Billastro

[Edited on 4/25/2009 by Billastro]



I can't answer your question because I don't agree with the premise.

I am on the left and I have been critical of Obama with some of his major appointments
and other issues. But you don't ever see that in your black and white world
of liberal/ bad conservative/superior view of everything.

why bother trying to change the mind of someone that starts threads
consistently with attacks on "the left" , liberals ect, ect ect.

You just like to stir things up.

go to wiki and look up "internet Trolling". If you don't see yourself there
then you don't have an honest view of yourself.


Your constant railing against "the left" gets to be monotonous

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 05:16 PM
quote:
What do your responses have to do with the question? Why don't you answer it, instead of horsing around?
Sorry I wasn't more obvious.
quote:
Is it my imagination, or do the Lefties seem to take deep offense at anyone who knocks or questions Obama in any way whatsoever?
It's your imagination if you think that the offense is felt any differently by the Left or Right when trash is flung at their candidate or their belief systems.
quote:
Considering the harsh venom the Left threw at Bush (from this level, all the way up to the loftiest levels) during his term and after, I find the difference to be really hypocritical.
Oh ... unlike the 'soft venom' that the Right has been throwing at Obama? I find it amusing that you mention this hypocrisy given the nature of many of your posts in this forum (and even in this thread).
quote:
It seems the Left can dish it out, but they sure can't take it (I know it's a cliche, but I also know it's true).
true, on the cliche part - false, if you suggest that the 'Right' responds any better when the situation is reversed.
Why is this?
That's like asking why is the sky blue. Look into your own heart and mind and at your own reactions to conflict and you will have your answer.

[Edited on 4/25/2009 by lolasdeb]

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 05:26 PM
quote:
Yes it's definitely your imagination. But, when people are doing things like questioning Obama's citizenship, I find that offensive for reasons outside of partisan politics.
I'd have to agree with you on the political dimensions of this. Its curious then, don't you think, why did/does Obama need a bunch of lawyers defending him on something so simple to prove? Some reports peg the legal expenses have already topped $1 million for him while defending this issue.

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 07:38 PM
quote:
One trip to the safety deposit box. And any question about my citizenship is settled and closed.And the president of the USA has to hire a legal team to handle his citizenship questions.That does raise the brows with concern ,to say the least.
The more folks i talk to are expressing grave concern as to where in the hell this guy is taking the country.And even though some feel i'm full of hog wash here. When i state the amount of black folks that feel this way as well.I'll take it a step further and say the bank mgr where i bank,which is a black woman as well.Has expressed her views on Obama.And they ain't the most positive to say the least.
Strange how so many on this site find it hard to beleive.That there are a HELLUVA LOTTA black people out there that dont like and are flat out scared of Obama.And if ya dont think i'm layin the truth on the line.Book a flight and come on down.I'll take ya round and back up my claims.
On top of that i'll feed ya and put ya up while your in town.THEN when ya get back home.You can put your chops out here in black & white.If ol Luke was tellin the truth or a liar.And i already know what the answer is on that.
Yep-----
You asked for it
you got it
Obama.
Everyone just had to have that big ol smiley CHANGE.Well get ready,,,cause them chickens is comin home to roost.And theres gonna be a lotta sh*t in the pen when its done.

To quote the person who started this thread...
quote:
What do your responses have to do with the question? Why don't you answer it, instead of horsing around?

Billastro

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 08:49 PM
quote:
Is it my imagination, or do the Lefties seem to take deep offense at anyone who knocks or questions Obama in any way whatsoever?


Imagination.

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 09:17 PM
quote:
Is it my imagination, or do the Lefties seem to take deep offense at anyone who knocks or questions Obama in any way whatsoever?


It's your imagination.

quote:
Considering the harsh venom the Left threw at Bush (from this level, all the way up to the loftiest levels) during his term and after, I find the difference to be really hypocritical.


Um, yeah. The Left in that time (and long before that) were called America haters. Terrorist lovers. Traitors. Socialists. Communists. Want the country to fail. Want the mission to fail in Iraq. Hate America. If you don't like it, leave.

And...most of that venom was directed at people criticizing not only the President, but his decisions, his policies, as if that was in and of itself some great crime that meant you were a traitor. The Right did not care to listen. They did not voice any disapproval, save for the Dubai Ports Deal and Harriet Myers, for anything President Bush did in his entire 8 year term. During that time, in particular the first 6 years, the Right dominated Washington. Dominated. Plenty of time to enact all those wonderful conservative policies to ensure the stregnth and growth of America and her economy. The Right was running the show. Now, the Right, after failing in just about every way in pursing that goal, expects everyone to forget all that.

Sorry, but, no.

Well, perhaps I should digress. Save for the last year or less of his Presidency, when the Right disowned him but still wouldn't even hint he ever did anything wrong, because, of course, that would mean they would have to agree with a liberal, and, in the end, that will never, ever happen.

quote:
It seems the Left can dish it out, but they sure can't take it (I know it's a cliche, but I also know it's true).

Why is this?



When it comes to dishing it out but not being able to take it, hearing that come from anyone on the Right is about the most hilarious thing I've ever heard.

quote:
One trip to the safety deposit box. And any question about my citizenship is settled and closed.And the president of the USA has to hire a legal team to handle his citizenship questions.That does raise the brows with concern ,to say the least.



No, I don't think so. Here be the lesson from the Clinton years. From Day 1, there was a concentrated effoprt to destroy his presidency at all costs (and the same people would then turn around later and take people to task for not respecting the President). A guy named Ken Starr was appointed to investigate a questionable real estate deal and that grew, at great taxpayer expense, an never-ending lust to find something, anything to bring the President down. Clinton appointed Starr, Clinton did not aggressively fight Starr at any point. Starr got him impeached.

I'd say in this day and age of politics, aggresively fighting any concerted effort to being you down when the people trying to do that very thing could care less about actual truth, makes perfect sense.

 

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  posted on 4/25/2009 at 10:08 PM
quote:
Is it my imagination, or do the Lefties seem to take deep offense at anyone who knocks or questions Obama in any way whatsoever?


Its your imaginination. The "questioning" is ridiculous. Case in point: the "issue" over his birth certificate. You guys are getting more crazy by the day.

quote:
Considering the harsh venom the Left threw at Bush (from this level, all the way up to the loftiest levels) during his term and after, I find the difference to be really hypocritical. It seems the Left can dish it out, but they sure can't take it (I know it's a cliche, but I also know it's true).


Wow, Bill, really? If you want to be honest with yourself, go back, look at the first 100 days of Bush in his first term and see how much criticisim you can find. After that, see how much criticism he earned with the horrible actions he took as President, not the least of which was the Iraq war fiasco.

Add this silly question/thread to the list of ridiculous "questions".

 

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  posted on 4/26/2009 at 02:54 PM
quote:
Wow, Bill, really? If you want to be honest with yourself, go back, look at the first 100 days of Bush in his first term and see how much criticisim you can find.


Really? Before Bush was even sworn in for his first term, the Left was saying he wasn't even a "real" President and didn't deserve to be there. The election was stolen!

Talk about a layup.

 

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  posted on 4/26/2009 at 04:28 PM
quote:
Really? Before Bush was even sworn in for his first term, the Left was saying he wasn't even a "real" President and didn't deserve to be there. The election was stolen!

Talk about a layup.


So, youre taking a wholly different issue and trying to make it fit the definition of criticism leveled at Bush for job performance in his first 100 days? Try again.

 

____________________
Missing- 245 spines. If found, please send one to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and the rest to the Capitol building care of the Democratic Party.

 
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