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Author: Subject: Trading "Instant Live CDs"

Peach Bud





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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 10:07 AM
Hello,

Happen to Notice that DSBDs are being traded through this site(esp. the latest Charlotte show). Wouldn't this be trading copywritten material? If so, we have a lot of bootleggers on our hands. Now!

btw I'm a taper and 100% supportive of ABB selling their shows but trading them...Seems to be stretching the rules. They don't allow trading for "Eat A Peach" so what's the diffenence?


[Edited on 8/15/2003 by HydroPANIC]

[Edited on 8/15/2003 by HydroPANIC]

 
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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 10:12 AM
Taping and trading of the show is ok, just not the instant live show. I haven't noticed anyone trading it yet.....

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 10:18 AM
Haven't seen anyone trading the instant live CDs on this site yet. I say yet because many people seem to feel that since they are only printing a limited number of them, once they are no longer available for sale then they should be ok to trade.

PS - Thanks for taping these shows, those of us who can't really appreciate it.

[Edited on 8/15/2003 by gondicar]

 

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Peach Bud



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 10:33 AM
Thanks for the support Gondicar...

Nothing like the feeling of putting a smile on a Peach Head... We do it for the luv of the family!

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 10:40 AM
This comes directly from my entertainment attorney. Every show automatically has a copywrite of all music, video and photos. If the band chooses to allow you to record, video or photgraph shows you still are trading copywritten material. But you have their permisson to trade the material. The problem arises when permission is not granted. If you buy it you can't reproduce it. The copywrite laws are very simple as soon as you create a piece of art, music, video, photos....etc intellectual property, it has a copywrite. It helps to register it with the library of congress but is no longer a requirement. These guys have a business and they are creating intellectual property at very show. So every show is copywritten. Audience recordings turned into products to be sold will require you to get a mechanical licence to sell the material on the recording. No major CD reproduction house will burn CD's without the mechanical licence thats says you have permission to use this material. If you trade the show you bought you are in violation of copywrite. If you trade the same show and it's an audience and the band let the guy record it with the understanding he makes no profit, then your not in violation of the copywrite. It all comes down to if they give you permission to trade it or not and if money was exchanged for profit.

[Edited on 8/15/2003 by goldtop]

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 10:49 AM
Please explain why these shows could not be traded? Is it copyright material? It's not produced or remixed. The only discernable thing between this and a taper show is its immediate availability for a price right after the show. I suppose they might be able to sell a few units in the weeks after a show, but it doesn't seem like it would be enough for them to sweat over.
 

Peach Master



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 10:51 AM
Goldtop's post was made simultaneously with mine. Had I read it, I wouldn't have made my post. Thanks, Goldtop!
 

A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 11:41 AM
I can see the point in disallowing trading of these. I walk into the show, come upon the CC InstantLive sellers asking me if I want to buy a copy of the show, available within a mere half-hour after the show ends. I think to myself, "no, I think I'll get it for free from my good friend Johnny Copyright Infringer who already has promised me he will buy it and copy it for me at no charge tomorrow." So I say to CC InstantLive seller: "no thank you" and I go spend my money on $8 beers instead. That's one less tangible sale for the ABB and CC.

CC had the capacity to sell 1000 of these at each Charlotte and Raleigh, but only sold about 800 in each city. They would have sold fewer if they had announced ahead of time that it's okay to trade them. That seems like a logical policy decision by ABB and CC.

Now, Charlotte and Raleigh being "experiments" -- if the ABB decides not to continue with the InstantLive program going forward, and they won't burn/sell any more of these two "official" ones already recorded, only then do I see no issue with trading them. Or at least, only then does it seem silly for the ABB to withhold permission to allow us to trade them....but it is ultimately their call. As Goldtop pointed out - without their permission it's illegal.





[Edited on 8/15/2003 by Zambi]

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 04:13 PM
quote:
Clear Channel is an evil corporate conglomerate and I have no problem ripping them off if I get the chance. That being said, I must get back to work for the evil corporate conglomerate who pays me each week.


Except trading these official releases also rips off the ABB, since it's a 50/50 split w/o recoupables having to be first met. Whether the ABB rips you off with $38 lawn tix (Charlotte) is a whole other different topic for discussion though.


quote:
quote:
As Goldtop pointed out - without their permission it's illegal.


So are some of the other activities that I partake in at an ABB show. I don't have their permission for that either.



Difference between smoking some green and copyright infringing is stark. Individuals who infringe copyright are subject to fines up to $250,000 and up to 5 years imprisonment, per infringement. That's for repeat offenders in a criminal context. But if the copyright holder were to sue you, the minimum statutory damages is $500 per infringement. That can go up to a max $20,000 per infringement....and if the infringement is found to be "willful" the judge can add up to $100,000 penalty per infringement. Figuring the ABB plays 12-18 songs per night, that's quite the hefty possible punishment (infringement is on a per song basis). Now, whether the ABB or CC would go after you is a whole different story, but it is illegal and despite appearing quite benign, in actuality it's probably quite a bit more severe than the other activities you partake in at an ABB show.

Read more: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/506.html?DB=uscode

Do what you want, I really don't care or have any moral problems with it. But it is what it is, and that is theft.

 

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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 05:00 PM
quote:
Thanks for the support Gondicar...

Nothing like the feeling of putting a smile on a Peach Head... We do it for the luv of the family!


Y'all put a smile on mine everytime I can trade or offer a B&P. My contribution. Anyone can burn.

Not everyone can tape.

Keep up the good work.

 

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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 05:34 PM
Here's my issue. I would BUY every single show, no problem, but I can't go to every show to buy them, so I would really love to get my hands on them. If they're for sale, I'll buy 'em, but if I can't buy them, I'd love to have someone send them to me as a trade!
 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 05:37 PM
God bless the tapers...without them I would have total of 0 shows by anybody...(excluding radio & TV tapings)

Thank you HydroPANIC, Scott & Cathie, and all of you who put your money, time, and sweat into making shows available for all who can not attend...BIG tip -o- the hat!!

 

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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 06:07 PM
This post from Listserv got me thinking in another direction about why these might not be available other than at the show. I don't know how accurate this is, but it's food for thought:

quote:
Actually, the ABB are signed to a recording contract with Sanctuary Records. Sanctuary is the one who had the right to make the call on how these live CDs were to be sold in the first place right when they are promoting Hittin the Note. They were OK with the program provided sales were not offered outside the venue. They pumped some money into producing and marketing Hittin the Note and few record companies would have allowed Instant Live in the first place.


Again, it depends who you listen to, others seem to think they will definitely be made available later...

"some body tell me Who To Believe"...

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 8/15/2003 at 06:51 PM
Sancturay should have been smart enough to arrange for a piece of the perverbial pie.
With all the money i spend on tickets(4 shows this summer), t-shirts(3 this summer), cds(of which i have purchsed 4). hotels etc..... i don't feel the need to be too concerned about the economics of my favorite band. hell, i drag 10 people with me to every show, and promote the band, and their new cd, as well as share a ton of shows with the locals who do not want to take the time to be on this site to trade. this sharing of shows has serioulsy promoted the band and sales of their merchandise. my agrument is not intellectual, nor legal but emotional and fan based. i'm a fan, i couldn't make the shows that were taped. i can still get a copy of these shows from a friendly taper. i'd like a great copy of these shows though! therefore i have rationalized that the trading, or sharing, of these shows is great for the future of the abb, that is the rationization for the current taping policy of the band(i assume??). as was said earlier the dead do it. so....... if it really is Sanctuary's policy let's get them to change it. sell the cds or else. ha! i just stepped down from my high horse. thanks very much

 

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  posted on 8/16/2003 at 02:01 AM
Is there a difference when people trade the soundboards that used to be available? Do we know there original source? Were they stolen from the band?

I also will gladly pay for any show they offer up. Releasing every show seems like the way to go for my liking. That way I could buy all the shows I see plus any other bonus extras I choose. I'm sure many are the same as me. To me there is no need for Sanctuary or CC to be involved. I mentioned that they wouldn't sell many of any show before. Some people believed that they would sell thousands at the show but that just isn't realistic. 3000 would be great sales of a show. That would be roughly 120 000 copies from a tour. It won't happen. They should just hire a team to produce the discs themselves and sell from the site. The profit margin for producing their own copies is huge.

They record every show anyway. It wouldn't make sense not to with today's digital recorders.

 

Peach Bud



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  posted on 8/16/2003 at 08:31 AM
The only difference between last tours DSBD and previous SBD tapes is the MONEY issue... and the copywrites that follow.

I definitely think the band should handle the making of the CD from within it's family... Not Subcontracting it out... There no sense of ownership, therefore less care goes into the product. hint, hint... hire me to do it

 

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  posted on 8/16/2003 at 09:18 AM
Generally speaking, I would tell everybody to be patient and wait for the audience tapes to circulate. However, if they sell out the initial production run of the Instant Live CDs and have no plans to make any more, that is an interesting gray area. Ever since the shows, people on this site have been clamoring to buy them. I can imagine that Clear Channel and Sanctuary thought that the major market for Instant Live is the day of the show. But they could make a lot of money selling these CDs on this website. If the band/Sanctuary/Clear Channel won't satisfy that demand, well, people have been known to do desperate things. "To live outside the law you must be honest"
 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/16/2003 at 09:33 AM
I feel that they messed it up good when they pushed the limited edition, 1000 only to be printed. As it will work according to the current rules, unless they go back on their word that it is a limited edition(numbered and all), once they sell the 1000th copy, it is out of print, and therefore tradeable. If it weren't for the hassel I would receive, i would sell them on e-bay(or anywhere) for $0.83 . I supply the blanks and mailer.

But, if it's and but's were candy and nuts- the world would be much sweeter.

 

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  posted on 8/16/2003 at 09:54 AM
"I can imagine that Clear Channel and Sanctuary thought that the major market for Instant Live is the day of the show. But they could make a lot of money selling these CDs on this website. If the band/Sanctuary/Clear Channel won't satisfy that demand, well, people have been known to do desperate things. "To live outside the law you must be honest"

Rob- is this really true? They still may be correct. Let's not misjudge the postings on this site as turning into significant purchases...and, as mentioned I think in this thread, Sanctuary has to protect their investment by not diluting their product, Hittin' the Note.

I would be curious how many of the archival releases have been sold...in particular the last one. That may be a good indicator of the reality of the website sales, because that is an item that in theory, would have a much higher demand than any 2003 SBD show.

 

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  posted on 8/17/2003 at 07:44 PM
In theory a classic show should have longer sales legs, however, improvisational music is all about the now. Instant availability of a show has got to be one of the best ways for a band to infuse their current audiance with the energy needed to get to another show. The Phish site is a great example of how show availability promotes a forum of awareness and excitement. The fans are talking about the shows. They seem really focused on the music and getting to the next show. I would love to be able to keep up with ABB when they play the Beacon or the Greek. If I could listen to the Chicago show while reading the setlist I would feel much more a part of the whole. Paying $20 or $25 bucks to be in the community is a gift. The money is chump change compared to the joy of the show.

I'm sure I would not buy every show. I would look to the reviews, the setlists, and the opinons of the fans for help in making my buying decisions. The community becomes more important and more alive the more they have to share. Bring on the downloads!

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 8/17/2003 at 09:55 PM
I am waiting for Dickey Betts to try download offerings, and SBD patches...

Great name Billy

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/18/2003 at 11:00 AM
I had a discussion about this topic with two of my buddies last weekend. They are huge Pearl Jam fans and as pitpat stated, it sounds like Pearl Jam's method works better. My friends thought the ABB process was crazy since it (so far anyway) excludes people who weren't at a particular show.

 

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