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Author: Subject: Was Jesus another 'Sun God?'

Universal Peach





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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 08:46 PM
There are a number of you tube videos that talk about the origin of current Christianity that show that many or most of the current stories about Jesus are just the latest 'Son/Sun of God'. I'll post this one first and I hope you will watch before commenting, but I would love to hear your comments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeTJWp06BxA

This is a different version of the same thing called SunGod.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeTJWp06BxA

[Edited on 12/30/2008 by SmilingJack]

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:07 PM
That's a good theory and, IMHO, probably very close to the truth. I attended two different Southern Baptist seminaries for a total of four years and you would certainly get nothing like that from them but on my own, over the years of independent study, my postition has shifted to be aligned much more closely to something of this nature.

The virgin birth, god/man who walked among us was definitely not original with the story of Jesus but he does get all the "press." I believe it is a myth just like these earlier stories.

At some point I had to go with "God" or the "truth" and I made a difficult decision to choose the latter before I even completed my seminary studies. It led me to agnosticism after a period of about twelve years and I am forever thankful this is how it turned out.

My position is one needs to choose spiritual and intellectual integrity over any myth, story, religion, etc. Everyone has to decide what that is for themselves. But to cling to a religion or myth or theory or whatever for any other reason than it is the best one can come up with after much study, reflection and soul-searching is "settling" or "selling yourself short."

As long as a person continues to evolve spiritually, and not box themselves in and defend their position tenaciously regardless of possible evidence to the contrary, then they have done all they can.

Also I would highly recommend Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" as required reading.

"Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 10:06 PM
Interesting stuff, thanks. And to think I mostly thought Dec 25 was chosen for Chrismas in order to co-opt the Pagan's solstice celebration. Jack, your two video links are the same. Did you mean this one?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ-kvw1fYXs&feature=related

If others find comfort or explanations for life's unknowns in religion or belief in a supreme being, then all the best to you. For me, everything beyond the Golden Rule seems to be surplusage as a moral compass, and bit too farfetched for my primitive mind to grasp. I'll wait for real evidence of "truth," just as most of us do for nearly every other topic in life.

 

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  posted on 12/30/2008 at 12:52 AM
quote:
Interesting stuff, thanks. And to think I mostly thought Dec 25 was chosen for Chrismas in order to co-opt the Pagan's solstice celebration. Jack, your two video links are the same. Did you mean this one?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQ-kvw1fYXs&feature=related

If others find comfort or explanations for life's unknowns in religion or belief in a supreme being, then all the best to you. For me, everything beyond the Golden Rule seems to be surplusage as a moral compass, and bit too farfetched for my primitive mind to grasp. I'll wait for real evidence of "truth," just as most of us do for nearly every other topic in life.

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There are a number of these on you tube under various headings. Thanks for your link.

 

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  posted on 12/30/2008 at 04:02 PM
Using the science of astronomy to calculate the positions of Jupiter and specific stars as well as constellations that line up and fulfill the stories of Jesus' birth and Old Testament prophecies around the year 2 or 3BC - Bethlehemstar.net.

 

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  posted on 12/30/2008 at 04:15 PM
We're on the exact same page Brock.

 

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  posted on 12/30/2008 at 06:11 PM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
Using the science of astronomy to calculate the positions of Jupiter and specific stars as well as constellations that line up and fulfill the stories of Jesus' birth and Old Testament prophecies around the year 2 or 3BC - Bethlehemstar.net.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



This is true, however the Magi probably didn't come to visit until he was one or two years old. It is believed that he was born in 4 BC. That is based on the Roman census that was called for which was the reason that Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem.


Which is exactly why it is accounted for in the website I posted above.

 

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  posted on 12/30/2008 at 10:02 PM
Jesus was not a Sun God, and for the past several years I have put up the scriptures which indicate his birth was in September at or near the time of Roshshashannah, the Jewish New Years. If you want me to do that again, I will. The simplest proof is that Mary Magdalene's conception date was December 8th, count off 9 months and you come to September NOT December. But there is more, we all know that the shepherds were keeping watch over their flocks (that the flocks would not wander off), well December is the rainy season over there and the flocks are not kept out after the end of October. It is also in the scriptures about which month is the rainy season. The evidence is all there. I'm sure my archivist OTF has it.

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 06:37 PM
It sure is a big coincidence that there were a number of religions/stories that were the same over recorded time, and that the Jesus story was very much the same as previous stories. So is Gina saying that the story of Jesus is the same as the previous despite the time being off? The timing does not change the multiple previous same structures in previous religions.

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 07:45 PM
So has anyone seen proof of all the other stories ? and how many of them were before jesus's time?? interesting to say the least..

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 09:27 PM
I don't know what kind of tangible proof there might be other than what you might find in other cultures, but I've read about this before over the years, I just haven't seen it all put together this way.

I think Jesus lived and was a powerful healer.....I think it's possible later people applied the myth to Jesus to embellish the story. All we really know about Jesus for fact is he lived and died, nothing more.

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 11:17 PM
quote:
quote:
Jesus was not a Sun God, and for the past several years I have put up the scriptures which indicate his birth was in September at or near the time of Roshshashannah, the Jewish New Years. If you want me to do that again, I will. The simplest proof is that Mary Magdalene's conception date was December 8th, count off 9 months and you come to September NOT December. But there is more, we all know that the shepherds were keeping watch over their flocks (that the flocks would not wander off), well December is the rainy season over there and the flocks are not kept out after the end of October. It is also in the scriptures about which month is the rainy season. The evidence is all there. I'm sure my archivist OTF has it.


Gina, there is nothing in Scripture that says when Jesus was born, nor is it important at what time of year he was born. Nobody ever said he was born in December, the Birth was just celebrated on Dec 25.


You have to read all of it, then some enlightened person has to point it out to you and you will come to the same conclusion that he was born in the middle/end of September.

Luke 1:26 says in the sixth month, God sent Angel Gabriel to Mary that she was chosen and will be with child and so will Elizabeth. Exodus 12 and Leviticus 23:4 & 23:5 tells people that Passover is on the 14th day of the First month. So if April is the first month, then, then September is the 6th month).

Luke 1:36 He tells Mary that Elizabeth will be in her 6th month of pregnancy. Okay? It is September, Mary plans to stay till Elizabeth delivers her child which means she has to stay 3 more months, which means December. When she returned home to Joseph is when she became pregnant. I think this time was chosen so that people would not be suspicious since she was with her fiance during the time of conception. If she had become pregnant in September and came back home in Dec. 3 months pregnant people would surely have known something was up. This way it was easier for people to believe and accept that Joseph was probably the child's Father, with only the two of them knowing the truth. Jesus was born in the normal manner after a nine month pregnancy, he was flesh and bones. He ate food with his disciples.

As mentioned earlier, the Christians celebrate Mary's conception December 8th. Count off 9 months, Jesus would be born in September, but that's not all.

Luke 2:8 The Shepherds were keeping watch over their flocks at night. The rainy season begins Oct. 15th. Ezra 10:9 specifically states that the 20th day of the 9th month (which we know is December) is the rainy season. Jewish tradition, even anyone would not leave flocks out during the rainy season to get pneumonia and die. Therefore, the flocks could NOT have been out in the fields December 25th, they could not have been out there past the beginning of October.

How did the celebration of December 25 happen?

Centuries of Sun God's birthdays, the Romans had Sol, Brumalia (Dec. 25 birthday), Constantine of Sunday, Nimrod who is also Baal of Babylon(December 25), Isis (Egypt Dec. 25). The 4th century Egyptians brought the celebration into the Roman Catholic Church and it stayed on.

The Tree:
Nimrod died. A tree grew overnight from a stump on the anniversary of his death in Babylon. His wife (he had married his Mother), Semiramis carried on that it was a sign of life coming from heaven because he was a sun God (Baal), and people ought to leave presents as an offerring to him under the tree.

What the Bible says about the tree: Jeremiah 10:2-6
The customs of the peoples are worthless. They cut down a tree out of the forest, adorn it with silver and gold, fastgen it with a hammer and nails so it will not totter, their idols cannot speak, they must be carried because they cannot walk, do not fear them, they can do no harm, nor can they do any good. The tree was considered an idol.

The Gifts:
When Jesus was born, the wise men did come and gave him gifts. (Matthew 2:1-11). Our custom started back in the old days when people brought gifts to kings or their Gods.

Holidays people are told to observe:

Exodus 23:14-19
3 Festivals Per Year
Passover (Unleavened Bread) April
Feast of Harvests (First Fruits)
Feast of Weeks (Ingathering) End of Year you gather your crops before the rainy season.

Leviticus:
Passover
First Fruits
Feast of Weeks
Trumpets October 1
Atonement Oct. 10
Tabernacles October 15 - 7 days

The rest of what people celebrate are innovations the churches/temples implemented.


[Edited on 1/1/2009 by gina]

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 11:31 PM
It's a convoluted to base a point around the very story one is trying to prove. To prove the Bible is fact by using the Bible as the reference seems to me rather strange use of logic.

 

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  posted on 1/1/2009 at 04:55 PM
quote:
quote:


Gina, there is nothing in Scripture that says when Jesus was born, nor is it important at what time of year he was born. Nobody ever said he was born in December, the Birth was just celebrated on Dec 25.

quote:

You have to read all of it, then some enlightened person has to point it out to you and you will come to the same conclusion that he was born in the middle/end of September.

Luke 1:26 says in the sixth month, God sent Angel Gabriel to Mary that she was chosen and will be with child and so will Elizabeth. 9Exodus 12 and Leviticus 23:4 & 23:5 tells people that Passover is on the 14th day of the First month. So if April is the first month, then, then September is the 6th month).


Let's do some simple math. If Mary was told in Septemeber, she would have the baby 9 months later. In June.
quote:

Luke 1:36 He tells Mary that Elizabeth will be in her 6th month of pregnancy. Okay? It is September, Mary plans to stay till Elizabeth delivers her child which means she has to stay 3 more months, which means December.


Yeah, and?
quote:

As mentioned earlier, the Christians celebrate Mary's conception December 8th. Count off 9 months, Jesus would be born in September, but that's not all.


The Christians use that date to honor the act. Nowhere in any Christian religion is that day celebrated as the day it actually happened. That is celebrated on March 25, the Annunciation. 9 months before Christmas. Again, an arbitrary day that was selected.

quote:

Luke 2:8 The Shepherds were keeping watch over their flocks at night. The rainy season begins Oct. 15th. Ezra 10:9 specifically states that the 20th day of the 9th month (which we know is December) is the rainy season. Jewish tradition, even anyone would not leave flocks out during the rainy season to get pneumonia and die. Therefore, the flocks could NOT have been out in the fields December 25th, they could not have been out there past the beginning of October.


The rainy season in that part of the world means that most of the rainfall happens in that time. In the Bethlehem area, it is less than 8 inches per year. It mostly falls from Sept to March. Big deal. Right now we are in the rainy season in southern Nevada. Do you know what that means? We will get about 2 to 4 inches between November and April. It will rain between 6 and 10 days.
quote:

How did the celebration of December 25 happen?

Centuries of Sun God's birthdays, the Romans had Sol, Brumalia (Dec. 25 birthday), Constantine of Sunday, Nimrod who is also Baal of Babylon(December 25), Isis (Egypt Dec. 25). The 4th century Egyptians brought the celebration into the Roman Catholic Church and it stayed on.



Yeah, and?

quote:

The Tree:
Nimrod died. A tree grew overnight from a stump on the anniversary of his death in Babylon. His wife (he had married his Mother), Semiramis carried on that it was a sign of life coming from heaven because he was a sun God (Baal), and people ought to leave presents as an offerring to him under the tree.

What the Bible says about the tree: Jeremiah 10:2-6
The customs of the peoples are worthless. They cut down a tree out of the forest, adorn it with silver and gold, fastgen it with a hammer and nails so it will not totter, their idols cannot speak, they must be carried because they cannot walk, do not fear them, they can do no harm, nor can they do any good. The tree was considered an idol.

The Gifts:
When Jesus was born, the wise men did come and gave him gifts. (Matthew 2:1-11). Our custom started back in the old days when people brought gifts to kings or their Gods.

Holidays people are told to observe:

Exodus 23:14-19
3 Festivals Per Year
Passover (Unleavened Bread) April
Feast of Harvests (First Fruits)
Feast of Weeks (Ingathering) End of Year you gather your crops before the rainy season.

Leviticus:
Passover
First Fruits
Feast of Weeks
Trumpets October 1
Atonement Oct. 10
Tabernacles October 15 - 7 days

The rest of what people celebrate are innovations the churches/temples implemented.



All of that means nothing. Your understanding of Christianity, actually your understand of Catholicism, since they are the ones who celebrate the Immaculate Conception, is very very very weak. Don't give me any crap about you being "enlightened" enough to explain any of this. By your incorrect references and your incorrect idea of what any of this means, it would serve you well to listen to others and stop acting like a know-it-all about this stuff.


Let's do some simple math. If Mary was told in Septemeber, she would have the baby 9 months later. In June.

She was not told that she was pregnant at that time (September), she was told that she would become pregnant, and that Elizabeth was pregnant at that time, September.

As to what it means, it is clear proof that people are being misled by corrupt religions, and the significance of that and it's implications to each person and makind will most definitely be known on Judgement Day. I'll be humbled by your weeping then.

 

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  posted on 1/1/2009 at 05:30 PM
First one has to believe the Bible is an accurate historical depection of what transpired. The only thing known about Jesus for a fact is that he was born, he lived and he died. No one knows as fact when Mary became pregnant so there is no way to know for certain when Jesus was actually born.

 

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  posted on 1/2/2009 at 05:18 PM
Be careful OTF, Gina sounds like she is an insider with some form of God.

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 01:14 PM
quote:
First one has to believe the Bible is an accurate historical depection of what transpired.


the Bible has been proven to be historically correct time and time again through archeaology finds. i will post links verifying this. in fact, i'm not sure that the Bible (Old Testament) has been proven wrong on any one fact.

One major distinction between the sun God stories and Jesus is that the sun gods and their stories were based on mythology. Jesus was a historical person, not a myth. Also, the prophesies regarding Jesus were written hundreds of years before his birth. What were the propheses regarding the other gods?

i would like the know the date of orgin of the texts that described the sun god stories, and debate their accruacy and veracity versus the Bible. The Bible has withstood many tests as to its accuracy and the care taken to preserve the original texts.

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 01:25 PM
quote:
the Bible has been proven to be historically correct time and time again through archeaology finds. i will post links verifying this. in fact, i'm not sure that the Bible (Old Testament) has been proven wrong on any one fact.


Geology clearly shows there was no global flood, nor does DNA studies show a genetic bottleneck in animals at the time the flood was supposed to take place. Those are just two that I mention off the top of my head. Plenty of inconsistencies as well as 'historical errors' in the bible.

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 01:29 PM
Much of all that has transpired throughout history has been passed from one generation to the next through oral tradition. You won't find ancient documents to support it other than ancient artifacts and stone writings....maybe there are written documents, however I know the Catholic Church has been rigiorous in finding things and either destroying them or secreting them beneath the Vatacan in the vaults. It doesn't make the information any less valid. As for the Bible.....would anyone wish to discuss the contemporary writings that were not included because they were contradictory to what the Churcn wanted to include in the Bible? And if the prophesies were written hundereds of years before the birth of Jesus, why don't the Jews, who wrote the prophesies, believe Jesus fullfilled them?

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 01:59 PM
quote:
And if the prophesies were written hundereds of years before the birth of Jesus, why don't the Jews, who wrote the prophesies, believe Jesus fullfilled them?


all of the original believers were all Jewish, so there have been plenty of Jews both historically and today that believe that Jesus fulfilled them. There are also many passages that say that the Jewish Messiah would be rejected by his own people.

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 02:13 PM
That's convenient.

Much of what is in the Bible is in the tradition of Midrash:

"Midrash" - (pl. Midrashim); containing extra-legal material of anecdotal or allegorical nature, designed either to clarify historical material, or to teach a moral point

Jesus taught in parables that were meant to make a point and not to be taken literally. Literal Christians take every word in the Bible to mean exactly what it says. this happened when non Jewish Christians began to write down his teachings. They didn't understand the midrash concept of teaching and it's moral points. If it said eye for an eye.....to them it means an eye rather than seeing it as a metaphor for the premise that what you give, you get.

The New Testament was written by people who were early Christians, i.e. the Catholic Church, and there was enough diversity of intrepretation that Martin Luthor broke away and established the Protestant sect of Christianity.

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 04:16 PM
quote:
First one has to believe the Bible is an accurate historical depection of what transpired. The only thing known about Jesus for a fact is that he was born, he lived and he died. No one knows as fact when Mary became pregnant so there is no way to know for certain when Jesus was actually born.


Ridiculous. The bias works both ways, especially by the psuedo-enlightened who automatically proclaim that the teachings and stories about Jesus' life in the New Testament are untrue in all instances. The more archeology finds, the more of the Bible is brought to life. To not keep up with new archeological finds is to not know what you are talking about. There was just a whole show on this subject on PBS. The early part of the Books of Moses about the creation of life cannot be unsubstantiated. But, once you get into the formation of the Tribes, more is being proven all of the time. The finding of the stone carving specifically talking about the House Of David was huge find, especially considering it was not from the Jewish tradition but of another leader congratulating a general on the defeat of an army of the House of David during the right time period historically. Man, as men are in the real world, do embellish and add on, etc. But for a religion based on the teachings of a prophet in human form to reach the top leader of the world within 300 years with the Roman leader Constantine to be based on nothing is ridiculous.

So Ann, prove to us that your belief system is true, and how does the Pentogram enter into the mix??

Once again, using the science of astronomy to calculate the positions of Jupiter and specific stars as well as the constellations that lined up and fulfilled the stories of Jesus' birth and Old Testament prophecies around the year 2 or 3BC - Bethlehemstar.net.

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 05:23 PM
By golly....you watch a PBS show and think you understand it all. Bravo! Before I begin, I have to ask how you unsubstantiate anything. Just wondering.

You're assuming I don't keep up with the new archeological finds...you're mistaken. I'm very interested in what's being discovered that casts new light on the Bible. However, put in that context, the Old Testament is the history of the Jewish people not the entire region. I'm not saying the names and places are not real....I'm saying the method of intrepreting the rest of the Bible is subject to midrash....something that was not necessarily meant literally. I've never said the stories about Jesus aren't true to some extent, just that they have been writtten by man and subject to man's intrepretation or oral tradition. If Jesus wasn't born of a virgin on December 25th it matters not to me.....the message is what was meant to resonate not the details.

Are you aware in some parts of Europe they hold that Mary Magdaline was the wife of Jesus as well as being married first to John the Baptist? It's from oral tradition the story contines to be told. Also they believe Mary and John the Baptist had a child together and from this child springs what the believers consider the true prophet's message.

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 06:01 PM
quote:
That's convenient.

Much of what is in the Bible is in the tradition of Midrash:

"Midrash" - (pl. Midrashim); containing extra-legal material of anecdotal or allegorical nature, designed either to clarify historical material, or to teach a moral point

Jesus taught in parables that were meant to make a point and not to be taken literally. Literal Christians take every word in the Bible to mean exactly what it says. this happened when non Jewish Christians began to write down his teachings. They didn't understand the midrash concept of teaching and it's moral points. If it said eye for an eye.....to them it means an eye rather than seeing it as a metaphor for the premise that what you give, you get.

The New Testament was written by people who were early Christians, i.e. the Catholic Church, and there was enough diversity of intrepretation that Martin Luthor broke away and established the Protestant sect of Christianity.

This is simply not true. The New Testament was written by early Christians, all of whom were Jewish. The Catholic Church did not even come into existence until the 4th century ACE, and all the books of the New Testament were written before 95 ACE, and most beofore 70 ACE. This is not open to interpretation, these are historical facts born out by hundreds of years of linguistic, archeological, and historic research. The midrash has to do with interpreting the law, and is not applied to the New Testament. An eye for an eye means the punishment should fit the crime and originated as a legal term. Martin Luther was forced away from the Catholic Church by it's leadership in response to the corruption of the church in selling dispensation and salvation (among other things, such as worldly living), which went against what Jesus taught about salvation by grace. Martin Luther espoused the basic principles of salvation and grace from the time he wrote his "Ninety Five Theses" in 1547 until the day he died. The label "protestant" comes from the protests he started against the church pushing for the truths of the Bible to be available to all and not just the clergy. Again, these are historical facts which are easily checked.

 

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  posted on 1/3/2009 at 06:07 PM
quote:
Jesus taught in parables that were meant to make a point and not to be taken literally.


BA, i challenge you to re-read the 4 gospels and decide for yourself if Jesus meant his words to be taken literally. was he being literal when he asked his disciples and followers to trust their eternal destiny in him? or when he forgave sin? or when he commanded his disciples to go to the ends of the earth to make other disciples? i think his teaching were pretty clear in that he wanted direct action, not philosopical thought and debate.

 
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