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Author: Subject: Judge not....

A Peach Supreme





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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 01:00 AM
Every now and then someone will cite Jesusí words about judging that we not be judged. But theyíre always taken out of context. The full meaning has a different thrust:

Matthew 7:1-4
quote:
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
He judged publicly the Pharisees and Scribes (religious leaders who used the Law to browbeat the Galileans of His time. They essentially had the power of life and death):

Matthew 12:33-37
quote:
" You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
He really nailed them a little later:

Matthew 23:13-34
quote:
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
Compare these incidents to the time when the Pharisees tried to trick Him into judging unfairly a woman caught in the very act of adultery:

John 8:3-11
quote:

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

"No one, sir," she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 08:55 AM
quote:
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.


Indeed. He can start with his followers.

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:05 AM
quote:
quote:
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.


Indeed. He can start with his followers.


No presumptuous elitism in THAT statement, by golly. Not a bit.

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:21 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.


Indeed. He can start with his followers.


No presumptuous elitism in THAT statement, by golly. Not a bit.


Actually no. My point, which you neither care about nor got, was that many so-called Christians are some of the most un Christian people around. If more of them followed their own teachings, then everyone they influence would be a lot better off.

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:23 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.


Indeed. He can start with his followers.


No presumptuous elitism in THAT statement, by golly. Not a bit.


Actually no. My point, which you neither care about nor got, was that many so-called Christians are some of the most un Christian people around. If more of them followed their own teachings, then everyone they influence would be a lot better off.


I know EXACTLY what you meant and I stand by my assertion. Your comment, AND clarification, speak for themselves, Steve.

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:35 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.


Indeed. He can start with his followers.


No presumptuous elitism in THAT statement, by golly. Not a bit.


Actually no. My point, which you neither care about nor got, was that many so-called Christians are some of the most un Christian people around. If more of them followed their own teachings, then everyone they influence would be a lot better off.


I know EXACTLY what you meant and I stand by my assertion. Your comment, AND clarification, speak for themselves, Steve.


So, its acceptable to post scripture (and religion in general) telling people how to live, but somehow "elitist" for me to make an observation that many that follow Christianity aren't very "Christian"? I think you are looking for something to complain about since you apparently haven't been around and feel like you have catching up to do.

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:42 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.


Indeed. He can start with his followers.


No presumptuous elitism in THAT statement, by golly. Not a bit.


Actually no. My point, which you neither care about nor got, was that many so-called Christians are some of the most un Christian people around. If more of them followed their own teachings, then everyone they influence would be a lot better off.


I know EXACTLY what you meant and I stand by my assertion. Your comment, AND clarification, speak for themselves, Steve.


So, its acceptable to post scripture (and religion in general) telling people how to live, but somehow "elitist" for me to make an observation that many that follow Christianity aren't very "Christian"? I think you are looking for something to complain about since you apparently haven't been around and feel like you have catching up to do.


Who is posting scripture where and who is telling others how to live?

And who is arrogantly lumping 'many' Christians into one group?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:46 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.


Indeed. He can start with his followers.


No presumptuous elitism in THAT statement, by golly. Not a bit.


Actually no. My point, which you neither care about nor got, was that many so-called Christians are some of the most un Christian people around. If more of them followed their own teachings, then everyone they influence would be a lot better off.


I know EXACTLY what you meant and I stand by my assertion. Your comment, AND clarification, speak for themselves, Steve.


So, its acceptable to post scripture (and religion in general) telling people how to live, but somehow "elitist" for me to make an observation that many that follow Christianity aren't very "Christian"? I think you are looking for something to complain about since you apparently haven't been around and feel like you have catching up to do.


Who is posting scripture where and who is telling others how to live?

And who is arrogantly lumping 'many' Christians into one group?



Um, look at the very first post in this thread. I'm not picking on Bill, but the message in general. As for lumping Christians, Im certainly not referring to all of them, but I would think that even you would have to admit that theres a lot of religious people on the Right and elsewhere that are pretty bad Christians.

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:50 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Jesus has a vast amount to teach, and itís worth our while to listen to Him.


Indeed. He can start with his followers.


No presumptuous elitism in THAT statement, by golly. Not a bit.


Actually no. My point, which you neither care about nor got, was that many so-called Christians are some of the most un Christian people around. If more of them followed their own teachings, then everyone they influence would be a lot better off.


I know EXACTLY what you meant and I stand by my assertion. Your comment, AND clarification, speak for themselves, Steve.


So, its acceptable to post scripture (and religion in general) telling people how to live, but somehow "elitist" for me to make an observation that many that follow Christianity aren't very "Christian"? I think you are looking for something to complain about since you apparently haven't been around and feel like you have catching up to do.


Who is posting scripture where and who is telling others how to live?

And who is arrogantly lumping 'many' Christians into one group?



Um, look at the very first post in this thread. I'm not picking on Bill, but the message in general. As for lumping Christians, Im certainly not referring to all of them, but I would think that even you would have to admit that theres a lot of religious people on the Right and elsewhere that are pretty bad Christians.


I don't attend church for the very reasons you site and haven't for decades. However, do you actually believe Bill is telling others how to live? Or promoting discussion?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:57 AM
quote:
I don't attend church for the very reasons you site and haven't for decades. However, do you actually believe Bill is telling others how to live? Or promoting discussion?


A little of both?

 

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Missing- 245 spines. If found, please send one to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and the rest to the Capitol building care of the Democratic Party.

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 10:08 AM
quote:
quote:
I don't attend church for the very reasons you site and haven't for decades. However, do you actually believe Bill is telling others how to live? Or promoting discussion?


A little of both?


Of course it's a little of both. Isn't that why we're all here? From what I've seen of Bill, however, he's not a demonstrable hypocrite but rather a well reasoned fellow merely lacking a conveniently subjective belief system.

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 11:05 AM
I posted this at midnight last night, not to troll, but just because I wanted to state it before caving in to fatigue.

Short reply: Squatch, brace yourself -- you pointed out one of the most difficult realities that Christians have to face, that there are a lot of us who do more damage than good. I couldn't agree with you more! RBK, your points are equally valid.

When I get to work (a full morning approaches) I'll add a few more thoughts. I hope this doesn't sound patronizing or anything, because I'm still learning as well. But Jesus addressed the points you bring up.

A doctor's appointment is the priority now.

BTW, RBK, thanks for the compliment . Squatch, you nailed it in your first response.

Billastro

[Edited on 12/29/2008 by Billastro]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 11:48 AM
quote:
Short reply: Squatch, brace yourself -- you pointed out one of the most difficult realities that Christians have to face, that there are a lot of us who do more damage than good. I couldn't agree with you more! RBK, your points are equally valid.


That was my point, Bill. Thank you.

 

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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 03:24 PM
quote:
quote:
Short reply: Squatch, brace yourself -- you pointed out one of the most difficult realities that Christians have to face, that there are a lot of us who do more damage than good. I couldn't agree with you more! RBK, your points are equally valid.


That was my point, Bill. Thank you.
You're welcome!

Here are a couple of other sections that expand on what you and RBK have been mentioning:

Matthew 7:15-23
quote:
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
BTW, "fruit [of the spirit]" refers to personal qualities, not deeds:
quote:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
(Galatians 5:22-25)

Luke 18:9-14
quote:
To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other menórobbers, evildoers, adulterersóor even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
The Matthew citation is especially chilling. A lot of people (and this is what I read from the text; I'm not speaking for God, just relaying the news) are gonna get a bad shock in the next life. This thread http://allmanbrothersband.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=85370 in particular seems to fit.

The Luke one fits a lot of what non-Christians correctly see as a major flaw with many churches. Even apart from the Benny Hinns, etc., there are serious problems that are hidden or that nobody wants to address.

Christianity includes the idea of sanctification, the process of becoming "cleaner" as believers continue their lives. It's not steady, and people do backslide (danged human nature ), but the sincere ones who want to follow Christ do show evidence of growth and improvement. The key concept is that the change comes from within (a changed heart) not from the outside (following laws). The Holy Spirit accomplishes the first; we can't accomplish the second on our own.

Billastro

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 12/29/2008 at 09:00 PM
After reading this thread this far I thought I'd go ahead and post some videos from you tube that show how not only was much of the Jesus story already told numerous times by other religions, they all based it on astronomy and astrology. I'd love to hear the practicising christians views here.
I am a former catholic now an agnostic who actually believes Jesus was the first hippie and preached love to his fellow man.

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 12/30/2008 at 04:27 PM
quote:
After reading this thread this far I thought I'd go ahead and post some videos from you tube that show how not only was much of the Jesus story already told numerous times by other religions, they all based it on astronomy and astrology. I'd love to hear the practicising christians views here.

I am a former catholic now an agnostic who actually believes Jesus was the first hippie and preached love to his fellow man.
There's far more hard documentary evidence (5,700 second-century Greek manuscripts, around 25,000 manuscripts if you add in Latin and other translations) for the Gospels being accurate accounts of Jesus' life and teachings than there is to contradict it.

Reread my initial post, look again at what Jesus said, and you'll see that He was no hippie!

By and large, the hippies were a group of adults who preferred to behave in childish, self-indulgent ways. Here's what George Harrison said in 1967:
quote:
Strolling through Haight-Ashbury in 1967, it was George Harrison--the quiet Beatle, for God's sake, and the one with the sitar!--who delivered one of the most caustic putdowns of hippies ever. "Somehow I expected them all to own their own little shops. I expected them to all be nice and clean and friendly and happy," said the future composer of "Give Me Love (Give Me Peace on Earth)," sounding more like Spiro Agnew than Ravi Shankar for a moment. Rather than love children he could, well, love, Harrison encountered what he called "hideous, spotty little teenagers" who "were all terribly dirty and scruffy."
Source: http://www.reason.com/news/show/36413.html .

Jesus confronted the Pharisees and hypocrites far more scathingly than Harrison did the hippies, he did it publicly, attacking the people who could sentence Him to death. Later, essentially, the did, with the cooperation of the Romans.

Luke 14:31-34 quotes Him:
quote:
"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
Here's what Jesus was referring to:
quote:
Herod Antipas married a daughter of the Nabatean king Aretas IV. When he divorced her in order to marry Herodias (the daughter of his late half-brother Aristobulos who was earlier married to another half-brother Herod Philip) he incurred the wrath of Aretas and the condemnation of John the Baptist (Matt 14:4; Mark 6:18; Luke 3:19). When Antipas was defeated by Aretas (A.D. 36), Josephus [the most highly regarded historian of the era; AD 37-ca AD 100] reports that many of his subjects perceived this as divine punishment for his behavior towards John the Baptist [whom he'd earlier had executed].
Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/herod-antipas

Technically, Herod may not have launched a war against a stronger king, but he did something equally stupid in divorcing the king's daughter. Jesus' audience would have known exactly what He was talking about. He certainly knew what Herod was capable of doing in retaliation for this public mockery.

Luke 13:32 records another of His comments about Herod:
quote:
He replied, "Go tell that fox, 'I will drive out demons and heal people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.'
To Jesus' culture, the fox was like a jackal -- too cowardly to kill its own prey, so it would find something a lion had killed and behave as if it were the victor. IIRC, I heard once that the word for "fox" was feminine, so Jesus nailed Herod twice.

Finally, consider the Crucifixion. Jesus refused to resist arrest, essentially turning Himself in. He knew what to expect, and He got it: The Romans lashed Him with a multi-thonged whip, with each lash containing pieces of glass, lead, and bone. The only restriction on them was not to kill Him. This kind of beating left the victim's back a mass of raw flesh, sometimes with the bones becoming visible.

Next, He was forced to carry the top bar of the cross to the execution site. He collapsed, so another person was forced to help Him. Then the guards nailed Him to the Cross.

Crucifixion was a slow death by asphyxiation. The victim hung from the cross, sometimes for days, making it impossible to breath. There was a footrest so the sufferer could "boost" himself up to gasp a breath or two, then collapse again. This dragged his shredded back against the rough-hewn wood. And if a victim took too long, the guards would break his knees so they could end the process.

Jesus went into this willingly, knowingly.

Hippie? Not a chance! Son of God? Absolutely!

The Old Testament contains hundreds of prophecies regarding Jesus: that He would be descended from King David (both Mary and Joseph were), that He'd be born in Bethlehem; that a friend would betray Him for 30 pieces of silver; that others would gamble over His clothing; that none of His bones would be broken (unusual for a crucifixion); that He would be pierced (long before crucifixion was known); and so on.

There are dozens of verses in the New Testament where Jesus clearly stated, or implied (in the culturally familiar terms of His time) that He was God, that He was the Image of God, that He and God were one and the same, and so on. He backed these claims up with His miracles, and His resurrection.

I believe thoroughly that Jesus was and is the Messiah, the living Son of the living God.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 12/30/2008 at 07:38 PM
My husband is one of the true hippies. He is peace loving, gentle, kind, honest and wouldn't knowingly do anything to hurt another. Sounds like the original message of Jesus to me.

 

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  posted on 12/30/2008 at 11:54 PM
quote:
My husband is one of the true hippies. He is peace loving, gentle, kind, honest and wouldn't knowingly do anything to hurt another. Sounds like the original message of Jesus to me.
It's a portion, not the original message. But Jesus came to provide a way of salvation for those who believed in Him as the only way to the Father. What you're talking about is the fruit of the spirit which He talked about in Matthew 7:15-23.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 12:03 AM
You're quoting the Bible. First one has to believe it is the definitive word of Jesus and I still feel it's open to intrepretation by some.

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 08:09 AM
quote:
You're quoting the Bible. First one has to believe it is the definitive word of Jesus and I still feel it's open to intrepretation by some.
Sorry, but I adamantly disagree. The Bible is the word of God whether one believes it or not. There's more concrete proof of the Bible's legitimacy than there is for any other spiritual writings -- there's no comparison in terms of historical reliability, number of documents, and so on.

I quote Jesus because I know He received His words directly from God, and this gave Him the authority to establish all that He did. Some of this included defining right and wrong, justice, and other values we need for meaningful lives, societies, and so on. (I'm generalizing to make a point.)

Without Jesus (= God), how do you define them? Who do you quote?

If your source is internal, then it's relativistic, or subjective, and has no meaning. If it's external, then who do you acknowledge as its source?

Supposedly Dostoevskii wrote, "Without God, nothing is forbidden [or all things are permitted]." This is the fact of the matter. I think that God (= Jesus) is not just the best, but the only, foundational source for an ideal society, and I think that the application of Jesus' two commandments would do more to radically improve life on Earth than any number of politicians, reformers, laws, programs, or anything else.

Mark 12:28-31 says,
quote:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[Deuteronomy 6:4,5] The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[Leviticus 19:18] There is no commandment greater than these."
Matthew 22:40 follows this with, "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

This is one area in which I refuse to compromise. I'm not forcing my views on anyone, but simply stating them.

Billastro

[Edited on 12/31/2008 by Billastro]

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 11:51 AM
Personally I would never ask anyone to compromise one's views or beliefs, however, my point is, using the Bible as a reference for the definitive word of God, or Jesus, has only a small impact on someone who's beliefs don't rely on the Bible as the definitive word. In such discussions it would be helpful to quote references besides the Book to back up what one finds in the Bible.

However, I find the suggestion that anyone who might have differing beliefs and have come to their personal truths in ways that are beyond the Bible to be less valid than one who relies on the Bible to be restrictive and judgmental on the face of it.

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 12:57 PM
quote:
Personally I would never ask anyone to compromise one's views or beliefs, however, my point is, using the Bible as a reference for the definitive word of God, or Jesus, has only a small impact on someone who's beliefs don't rely on the Bible as the definitive word. In such discussions it would be helpful to quote references besides the Book to back up what one finds in the Bible.
Since I maintain that the Bible is the only reflection of God's word, I won't compromise; I appreciate your desire not to expect me to, but I donít see anything wrong with your asking. I can always say no, and if you think your way is better then if you care about my ultimate welfare, asking me (or anyone) is appropriate.

If someone insisted on trying heroin to identify more closely with Blues musicians (as Eric Clapton supposedly did some time in the Ď70s), wouldnít it be a loving thing to do to ask him to reconsider? If someone I knew had decided to go to Jonestown with Jim Jones and Iíd known how dangerous he was, shouldnít I have tried to change his beliefs about Jones?

I can cite references outside the Bible that might happen to agree with it, but the only ones Iíd take seriously rest on the Bible. Certainly I won't turn to the Q'uran, or any other similar writings since I think they're based on false premises. Human philosophers hit the mark a little or a lot. But I donít see a need to turn to someone whoís not as accurate as the Bible.

Suppose (only for conversation) that the Qíuran is the actual Word of God. Countless Moslems have made it clear that Iím still accountable to its teachings even if I donít believe in it (meaning it has no impact on me). Is this any different from saying that all are accountable to the teachings in the Bible (provided theyíve heard of it Ė a tangent I donít want to get sidetracked by)? Since they contradict each other so many ways they canít both be right. I pick the Bible because thereís a mountain of evidence that verifies it, and because I think its teachings are closer to a God who created us out of love.
quote:
However, I find the suggestion that anyone who might have differing beliefs and have come to their personal truths in ways that are beyond the Bible to be less valid than one who relies on the Bible to be restrictive and judgmental on the face of it.
I figure from this that you think thereís something wrong with being restrictive and/or judgmental? Why? Do you have a foundation for this, or is it subjective? (BTW, I donít think Iím being hypocritically judgmental when I say that I think the Bible is right and that other spiritual writings are wrong.)

My statement is restrictive and judgmental since I maintain that there's such a thing as absolute truth. Insisting that 2+2=4 is restrictive; denying that 2+2=5 is judgmental.

I maintain that itís impossible to come to God without relying on the Bible, specifically on Jesus' teachings. Christianity isn't restrictive since it's open to anyone. Itís judgmental since one of its basic foundations is that the Word of God is absolute and unchanging.

I hope this clarifies some of my views.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 03:24 PM
I maintain that itís impossible to come to God without relying on the Bible, specifically on Jesus' teachings. Christianity isn't restrictive since it's open to anyone. Itís judgmental since one of its basic foundations is that the Word of God is absolute and unchanging.

I maintain that there are hundreds of thousands who have come to God without the Bible or the teachings of Jesus. The words of Jesus echo what I inherently know to be the way of God and there are many more like me but that doesn't make those who find God within any less believers than one who relies on the teachings of the Bible. I maintain to judge another by whether or not they embrace the Bible and to say they haven't found God is an act of discrimination that separates us rather than brings us closer together.


 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 03:26 PM
quote:
I maintain that itís impossible to come to God without relying on the Bible, specifically on Jesus' teachings. Christianity isn't restrictive since it's open to anyone. Itís judgmental since one of its basic foundations is that the Word of God is absolute and unchanging.

I maintain that there are hundreds of thousands who have come to God without the Bible or the teachings of Jesus.
Agree with Ann here ... God is not owned by Christians but recognized by many religions.

 

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  posted on 12/31/2008 at 04:05 PM
quote:
I maintain that itís impossible to come to God without relying on the Bible, specifically on Jesus' teachings. Christianity isn't restrictive since it's open to anyone. Itís judgmental since one of its basic foundations is that the Word of God is absolute and unchanging.

I maintain that there are hundreds of thousands who have come to God without the Bible or the teachings of Jesus. The words of Jesus echo what I inherently know to be the way of God and there are many more like me but that doesn't make those who find God within any less believers than one who relies on the teachings of the Bible. I maintain to judge another by whether or not they embrace the Bible and to say they haven't found God is an act of discrimination that separates us rather than brings us closer together.
There are hundreds of thousands who think they've come to God, but Matthew 7:21-23 clearly contradicts this
quote:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
You still haven't answered my question about the source of your views on right and wrong. Why not?
quote:
I figure from this that you think thereís something wrong with being restrictive and/or judgmental? Why? Do you have a foundation for this, or is it subjective? (BTW, I donít think Iím being hypocritically judgmental when I say that I think the Bible is right and that other spiritual writings are wrong.)
Lolasdeb added
quote:
Agree with Ann here ... God is not owned by Christians but recognized by many religions.
We don't claim to own God, but rather that He owns us. Huge difference here. I also said that Christianity is open to everyone (even though the Bible also says that God chooses whom He will choose and whom he won't. I don't understand this, don't pretend to, and even the most informed theologians acknowledge that this is beyond human understanding.) The fact that other religions recognize God isn't relevant. James 2:19 says
quote:
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe thatóand shudder."
BTW, James was an early and significant leader in the Christian church. He was also Jesus' half-brother.

Billastro

 

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