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Author: Subject: Biden + Obama + taxing the rich + 'fairness' = theft

A Peach Supreme





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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:03 AM
A couple of weeks ago I wandered off stating that I couldn’t think of any good reasons to post here any more. Last night, Joe Biden gave me one (in the debate where, IMHO, Sarah Palin absolutely hammered him. But I digress ).

Several times, Biden claimed that fairness is the reason he and Obama want to raise taxes on Americans making more than $250,000. But he doesn’t clarify his definition of fairness, let alone his source for this alleged fairness. He plucks it out of no defined source.

In reality, this income redistribution is essentially socialism, and it has no place in America. Never has, and never will.

I maintain that he and Obama are promoting theft by the government, and that this theft is based on class envy. The eighth Commandment ("You shall not steal.” Exodus 20:15) bluntly makes this clear. There aren’t any qualifiers, just four short words. It doesn’t talk about individuals, groups, or governments. Unless you want to parse “steal” the way Clinton parsed “is”, it means taking what doesn’t belong to you. Whether any of you lefties agree makes no difference to me.

The moral teachings of the Bible (and by extension, Jesus) are the bedrock of my life and values (BTW, a while ago, SquatchTexas made a typically snarky comment/snipe at my Christianity. Christians don't claim to be perfect, but we do claim that we know the only source of absolute Truth – a source that’s available to all, even those who knowingly reject Him if they eventually choose to come to their senses.)

Why isn’t it fair that some earn more than an arbitrary figure? Why is it fair to take from someone Obama-Biden thinks has disproportionately too much and give it to someone less well off? Who says?

Biden spews out this word with no context, appealing to the childish mentality that says, "Mommy, he got a bigger piece of pie than I did! ". He and Obama contribute to class envy, taking from the ones they consider rich, and giving to the ones they consider poor. Could anything be more arrogant or condescending? If I did this, I’d go to the Big House; they want to go to the White House.

Can any of the liberals here explain the concrete rationale for this vague notion of fairness? What’s the foundation? The authority? Or is it just the perspective of the one in power? (“Now that I’m the President, cough it up!") Why should anyone who has this much (whether through working hard, investing, inheriting, etc.) be compelled to give some of it up?

Answers without citations on this are a waste of bandwidth. If you can’t defend your position, it isn’t a position, just an opinion. As Brother Duane once said in an interview, “Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one.”

Billastro

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:15 AM
quote:


The moral teachings of the Bible (and by extension, Jesus) are the bedrock of my life and values


Really? Is that why you lied about your intent the last time you started one of these threads?

quote:
. Christians don't claim to be perfect, but we do claim that we know the only source of absolute Truth


Right. And that "absolute Truth" includes a mythical boogie man you blame all your shortcomings on. Excuse me if I declare your "absolute Truth" to be a bunch of hooey.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:22 AM
quote:
Whether any of you lefties agree makes no difference to me.



quote:
Answers without citations on this are a waste of bandwidth. If you can’t defend your position, it isn’t a position, just an opinion.


Answer your post a certain way under your conditions, and oh, you could care less what other people say about it. Got it. No thanks.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:36 AM
Well, we all know what Jesus thought about rich people and their chances of getting into heaven....

The economic policies for the last 30 years have been redistributing wealth to the rich. That's ok, but not economic policies that would strengthen the middle class. We have seen exactly what the consequences are of the current economic policies. How is it good?

I am in favor of a progressive tax system. I think it is wrong for a working person to be taxed at the same rate as someone who does not work. We all have a responsibility to help finance this great country that allows such opportunity. The more you earn, the more you pay.

Biden was making a totally valid point, IMO. The people who are blessed financially have an obligation to carry a heavier burden of helping to finance this great country and to keep the middle class strong. That is what Biden was saying. Republicans have failed to do this as underscored by this crisis. Now it is time to see what the democrats will do. What do they say about government being like a car....put it in D to go forward and R to go backwards, LOL.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:41 AM
In reality we have an unbalanced system in place now, and its been that way for decades. The determination of "fairness" has always been the provence of government officials. In fact, in the past, it was vastly more tilted than it is today.

Regan brought much of that back into a "reasonable" balance, and there's been a struggle ever since to push the top bracket higher and higher. Obama adds to that effort, but even his proposals go no where near as far as some of the top bracket rates of the past.

The real injustice here is not the rates at all, or the "progressive" structure of the tax. Its that the Federal income tax exists in the first place. Until 1913, there was no such animal, as it was unconstitutional. That was changed by the 16th ammendment.

The founders knew that a person's labor should not be taxed, but like all systems of government, politicians exist to expand their control over the citizens. Their most potent tool in that regard is to steal the income of the governed in order to perform their "good works".

The best proposition in recent times has been to replace all this with a national sales tax, as outlines in the Fair Tax book. Taxation on consumption is always far more fair than those on labor, as it permits a decision on the part of the citizens.

But it will never happen. Our politicians have far too much control over an increasingly dumbed-down citizenry, whose ideas of liberty and freedom are more controlled by government-fashioned lessons in government schools and feel-good advertising slogans than reality.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:43 AM
Man that is a good and true post!

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:44 AM
It's an honest disagreement. The Democrats want to strengthen the middle class by redistributing the wealth from the bottom up as opposed to the Republicans who for decades have spoken of the virtues of trickle down economics which usually equates to the rich get richer.

Socialism has been alive and well and had a place in America for decades especially in corporate America who constantly asks for socialized risks and bail outs. The National Football league is the best example of socialism at work with shared revenues.

Lastly the Bible states that slavery is acceptable so I assume you don't go along with that part.

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:50 AM
quote:
quote:
The moral teachings of the Bible (and by extension, Jesus) are the bedrock of my life and values
Really? Is that why you lied about your intent the last time you started one of these threads?
You're changing the subject -- a typical liberal ploy. Why don't you answer the points I made? What's your problem dealing with the issue at hand?

However, to get to your non-sequiturs, which only make you look foolish:

If you think I was lying, prove it. Put up, or shut up.
quote:
quote:
Christians don't claim to be perfect, but we do claim that we know the only source of absolute Truth
Right. And that "absolute Truth" includes a mythical boogie man you blame all your shortcomings on. Excuse me if I declare your "absolute Truth" to be a bunch of hooey.
More arrogance, bordering on self-contradiction. You can declare whatever you want, as adamantly as you want, but I think you're still flat-out wrong.

Tell me, what do you base your ideas of right and wrong on? You seem to think I'm in the wrong. Care to defend this sweeping statement? You sound as if you're making an absolute statement after denying my statement that there is an absolute truth. Don't you grasp the inherent illogic here?

Continuing, when did I blame my shorcomings on God (assuming He's the mythical boogie man)? Citations, please.

You think my statement about absolute truth is hooey? Is your statement true, or just opinion?

Can you put up? If not, will you kindly shut up?

BTW, you really sound angry. Are you? If so, why?

Billastro

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 10:55 AM
I'm not sure what your religious opinions have to do with discussing the merits of a progressive system of taxation. Your opinions may be strongly held, but they are opinions nonetheless. Your truth is not my truth.

But to the question, how can any of us cite authority as to whether progressive taxation is the right public policy? Well, ok, I could cite the Internal Revenue Code's tax tables that show a higher rate of tax as income increases. Satisfied?

Here's my unsolicited opinion, sans authority. Those that are able to gain more income probably use more public resources getting there (generally speaking). In my area of ad valorem property tax, those with higher valued real estate pay more property tax. They have more to lose, and should pay more to protect those assets with police and fire protection, among other things.

I think Biden said the Obama tax proposal will put tax rates back to where they were under Pres Reagan. Was he a socialist?

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 11:09 AM
quote:
in the debate where, IMHO, Sarah Palin absolutely hammered him
Not meaning to digress but could you provide an example of this hammering?

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 11:15 AM
quote:
Well, we all know what Jesus thought about rich people and their chances of getting into heaven....

The economic policies for the last 30 years have been redistributing wealth to the rich. That's ok, but not economic policies that would strengthen the middle class. We have seen exactly what the consequences are of the current economic policies. How is it good?

I am in favor of a progressive tax system. I think it is wrong for a working person to be taxed at the same rate as someone who does not work. We all have a responsibility to help finance this great country that allows such opportunity. The more you earn, the more you pay.

Biden was making a totally valid point, IMO. The people who are blessed financially have an obligation to carry a heavier burden of helping to finance this great country and to keep the middle class strong. That is what Biden was saying. Republicans have failed to do this as underscored by this crisis. Now it is time to see what the democrats will do. What do they say about government being like a car....put it in D to go forward and R to go backwards, LOL.

I know this is a very populist position, and many here will agree with it, but it's also over-simplified and missing important factors.

First; wealth is not a zero-sum proposition. There is no fixed amount of wealth that we're all struggling to get a piece of. No one is taking wealth from the poor or middle class and giving it to the wealthy. The opportunities to prosper have been lessened for the lower classes, that is true. But their wealth is not actively transferred from them, as the term "redistribution" would imply.

More correctly, the effects of globalism, and the lowering of trade restrictions, has hastened the flight of what used to be middle-class jobs from this country to other parts of the world. Political policy, as often voted for as much by Democrats as by Republicans, controls these issues. Technology, via automation, has also eliminated many jobs that were prevously skilled and decently paid. To sum it up as "redistribution" ignores all this.

Further, tax policy plays its part. The lower classes seem to love it when politicians pander for their votes by saying that businesses will be taxed more, and capital gains tax rates will be raised. Yes, let's soak those fat cats!

But the results are usually detrimental to those same people cheering for these changes. Increases in business taxes means that businesses must raise their prices in order to keep pace with their commitments (payroll, infrastructure costs, raw materials costs, etc). That raise the cost of living. Increases in capital gains taxes eventually mean that money which might have been invested here for the purpose of business growth, now looks for and finds a place where the returns are treated more profitably. So we end up with feel-good lower class voters who continually fall for the promises of people who claim to want to help them, but end up no better off and wondering why.

Finally, it's offensive to use the line about people "who are blessed financially". What a crock of populist bs. The vast majority of millionaires have accumulated that weath in their lifetimes, by working hard. The simple truth is that while we should all be equal before the law, we are not equal in almost all other ways. People with drive, who apply themselves to reaching success and achievement, are not "blessed". They simply focus on achievement more than most of the population. And it's a good thing they exist, because without them, where would invention, entrepreneurship, and business formation come from? Punish achievment to a great enough degree, and you're guaranteed to get less of it. That doesn't help anyone.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 11:16 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
The moral teachings of the Bible (and by extension, Jesus) are the bedrock of my life and values
Really? Is that why you lied about your intent the last time you started one of these threads?
You're changing the subject -- a typical liberal ploy. Why don't you answer the points I made? What's your problem dealing with the issue at hand?


I didn't change the subject. I responded to you attempting to establish your credibility by telling us your religious beliefs, as if that gives them some validity. It is a typical Christian ploy.

quote:

However, to get to your non-sequiturs, which only make you look foolish:

If you think I was lying, prove it. Put up, or shut up.


It was proven right there in the thread, which you abandoned. You started out by claiming that even though you had said you weren't going to post in the WP anymore, you had some new information that was so important that we had to see it. Then, after it was shot down, you claimed your real reason for the post was an "experiment" to see how the left would respond. It is all right there in the thread. Want me to pull it back up again?


quote:
quote:
quote:


Christians don't claim to be perfect, but we do claim that we know the only source of absolute Truth
Right. And that "absolute Truth" includes a mythical boogie man you blame all your shortcomings on. Excuse me if I declare your "absolute Truth" to be a bunch of hooey.
More arrogance, bordering on self-contradiction. You can declare whatever you want, as adamantly as you want, but I think you're still flat-out wrong.

Tell me, what do you base your ideas of right and wrong on? You seem to think I'm in the wrong. Care to defend this sweeping statement? You sound as if you're making an absolute statement after denying my statement that there is an absolute truth. Don't you grasp the inherent illogic here?


Do you? You think you have the "absolute truth." I've never claimed that I do.


quote:
Continuing, when did I blame my shorcomings on God (assuming He's the mythical boogie man)? Citations, please.


Um, I was talking about Satan. How you got "God" out of that, I have no idea.



quote:
Can you put up?


I do, all the time.

quote:
If not, will you kindly shut up?


Not a chance.

BTW, you really sound angry. Are you? If so, why?



I'm not angry. Are you?

Did I tell you to shut up?

[Edited on 10/3/2008 by SantaCruzBluz]

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 12:12 PM
You know Fuji, I wasn't even going to respond at all to this trolling post (The OP) but I did, and yes it was a very simplified answer. There is a lot more to getting rich than just good ideas and hard work. You have to have a stable country, police, infrastructure...all these things cost big money and government is supposed to provide these things. I used the blessed bit in response to the OP's religious theme, who I assume wishes for a christian theocracy. I did not mean to offend you with any of that by saying people of means are blessed. I do realize people have to work like hell to be able to have good options, but all the hard work can be for naught if the policies the government makes ends up in a collapsed economy.

It is just as fallacious to say that the policies being advocated by Obama/Biden are wealth redistribution as well. Again that was a response to the OP. One cheap shot answered by another.

I was conflating alot of different concepts in that post. Tax policy, economic policy, political policy....but my main point is leadership. Whether you llike it or not, people claiming to be conservatives have dominated the political and business scene for the last few decades and here we are. Conservatism is as conservatism does, same as christianity or any other label. Your philosophy does indeed make sense and I have heard it for a long time and it is not the conservatism I see in Washington. In a perfect world, your ideas are golden. There are still the hard questions of what to do with children who do not get enough food or health care, as well as their parents, among many other vexxing issues that must be addressed in our society. How do the solutions to these issues get financed?

I appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share that here at the ABB web site. I do not have the time I once had to post here (although we all may have plenty of time soon to post, at least those who can afford an internet connection) and I am very concerned about where we have been led by these hard working millionaires you take up for so enthusiastically.

Again, I did not mean to offend you with a cliff notes version of my take on things in a reply to an offensive troll. I am just a hard working, lower middle class taxpayer and my view is obviously different from yours, so, viva la difference, or whatever, LOL.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 12:47 PM
quote:
Again, I did not mean to offend you with a cliff notes version of my take on things in a reply to an offensive troll. I am just a hard working, lower middle class taxpayer and my view is obviously different from yours, so, viva la difference, or whatever, LOL.


No offense even remotely consider Goliath!

You have no fear of that with me, I try not to offend and at the same time to keep a thick enough skin as to not be easily offended around here.

After all, it's just an arena of ideas. Noboby's going home with bruises



Oh - and the "blessings" comment was Biden's - not yours. I would not have responded so strongly otherwise



[Edited on 10/3/2008 by Fujirich]

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 12:52 PM
Bhawk:
quote:
quote:
Whether any of you lefties agree makes no difference to me.
quote:
Answers without citations on this are a waste of bandwidth. If you can’t defend your position, it isn’t a position, just an opinion.
Answer your post a certain way under your conditions, and oh, you could care less what other people say about it. Got it. No thanks.
Why? Because I hoped you’d answer the questions instead of spewing the way SCB did? As I pointed out in my response to him, changing the subject (and by extension, dodging the question) is a typical liberal approach.

OTF:
quote:
I have a feeling that if McCain had been the one to propose this, you would have been in the front row leading the cheers.
Are you serious? Please reread my original post and then tell me how you came up with this bizarre conclusion.

First of all, Conservatives and to a lesser degree Republicans generally favor lowering taxes as a core value.

Second, I said nothing about parties or candidates. I asked if anyone could explain how fairness applied.

So far, the liberals are batting zero. It figures.

Goliath:
quote:
Well, we all know what Jesus thought about rich people and their chances of getting into heaven....
Not entirely accurate. Jesus said nothing about richness per se. In fact, Joseph of Arimathea, who was one of His followers, was rich (Matthew 27:57). Jesus’ concern was about people whose desire for money corrupted them. Paul said, “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.” (1 Timothy 6:10). Straight across the board, Christian theologians consider Paul’s writing to be as legitimate as the sayings of Jesus.
quote:
The economic policies for the last 30 years have been redistributing wealth to the rich. That's ok, but not economic policies that would strengthen the middle class. We have seen exactly what the consequences are of the current economic policies. How is it good?

I am in favor of a progressive tax system. I think it is wrong for a working person to be taxed at the same rate as someone who does not work. We all have a responsibility to help finance this great country that allows such opportunity. The more you earn, the more you pay.

Biden was making a totally valid point, IMO. The people who are blessed financially have an obligation to carry a heavier burden of helping to finance this great country and to keep the middle class strong. That is what Biden was saying. Republicans have failed to do this as underscored by this crisis. Now it is time to see what the democrats will do. What do they say about government being like a car....put it in D to go forward and R to go backwards, LOL.
Fujirich (see below) nails it. I bet he’s a conservative, too

Why do the rich have an obligation to help? I agree that they should, but for biblical reasons (Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 19:19; other locations), not because a mighty government tells me to.

Fujirich:
quote:
In reality we have an unbalanced system in place now, and its been that way for decades. The determination of "fairness" has always been the provence of government officials. In fact, in the past, it was vastly more tilted than it is today.

Regan brought much of that back into a "reasonable" balance, and there's been a struggle ever since to push the top bracket higher and higher. Obama adds to that effort, but even his proposals go no where near as far as some of the top bracket rates of the past.

The real injustice here is not the rates at all, or the "progressive" structure of the tax. Its that the Federal income tax exists in the first place. Until 1913, there was no such animal, as it was unconstitutional. That was changed by the 16th ammendment.
And there’s a lot of debate as to how it was passed. Some claim that it was a fast move that shouldn’t have been ratified, according to the Constitution. But we’re stuck with it.
quote:
The founders knew that a person's labor should not be taxed, but like all systems of government, politicians exist to expand their control over the citizens. Their most potent tool in that regard is to steal the income of the governed in order to perform their "good works".

The best proposition in recent times has been to replace all this with a national sales tax, as outlines in the Fair Tax book. Taxation on consumption is always far more fair than those on labor, as it permits a decision on the part of the citizens.

But it will never happen. Our politicians have far too much control over an increasingly dumbed-down citizenry, whose ideas of liberty and freedom are more controlled by government-fashioned lessons in government schools and feel-good advertising slogans than reality.
Bingo! Accurate, and sadly prophetic (in the last paragraph)

Brock:
quote:
I'm not sure what your religious opinions have to do with discussing the merits of a progressive system of taxation. Your opinions may be strongly held, but they are opinions nonetheless. Your truth is not my truth.
My religious knowledge (not opinions) has everything to do with discussing theft. Relativism (“Your truth…”) is self-refuting from the get-go. If you don’t believe this, invite me to your place so I can see what you have and redistribute it to me. It’s not fair, after all, that you might have a better computer or entertainment system than I have . In short, the expression, “Your truth…” is logically wrong in the real world.

I encountered this years ago when I was at the sentencing of a child molester (I was a key witness against him). He said, “In my heart, I know I didn’t do anything wrong.” My (and the court’s) truth that he’d committed a felony wasn’t his truth that he hadn’t. QED.
quote:
But to the question, how can any of us cite authority as to whether progressive taxation is the right public policy? Well, ok, I could cite the Internal Revenue Code's tax tables that show a higher rate of tax as income increases. Satisfied?
No. I’m talking about the moral/ethical rightness of taxation. You’re saying that the current law enables the government to take taxes. Might doesn’t make right.
quote:
Here's my unsolicited opinion, sans authority. Those that are able to gain more income probably use more public resources getting there (generally speaking). In my area of ad valorem property tax, those with higher valued real estate pay more property tax. They have more to lose, and should pay more to protect those assets with police and fire protection, among other things.
I appreciate your honesty, and I agree with your principles. But this kind of giving should be voluntary, not determined by the government.

Jesus started from the inside (changing individuals’ hearts would change their behaviors). By extrapolation, I think that giving charitably should be a function of the individual, not mandated by the government.
quote:
I think Biden said the Obama tax proposal will put tax rates back to where they were under Pres Reagan. Was he a socialist?
No, he wasn’t. But I don’t trust Obama or Biden when they promise lower taxes, especially in the light of the recent financial debacle. I think the temptation to them to tax us out of this is too great for them to resist.

SCB:
quote:
I didn't change the subject. I responded to you attempting to establish your credibility by telling us your religious beliefs, as if that gives them some validity. It is a typical Christian ploy.
I wanted to clarify where I get my values, beliefs, etc. Generally, liberals either can’t or won’t do the same.
quote:
It was proven right there in the thread, which you abandoned. You started out by claiming that even though you had said you weren't going to post in the WP anymore, you had some new information that was so important that we had to see it. Then, after it was shot down, you claimed your real reason for the post was an "experiment" to see how the left would respond. It is all right there in the thread. Want me to pull it back up again?
Is it wrong for me to abandon a thread? If so, why? Is it wrong for me to try an experiment? If so, why?
quote:
Um, I was talking about Satan. How you got "God" out of that, I have no idea.
Your statement was ambiguous. We don’t blame our lapses on Satan, either. He might nudge, but we’re fully capable of sinning without any outside assistance.
quote:
I'm not angry. Are you?
Nope. But frustrated – you still haven’t answered the question. You’ve blown a lot of smoke, nothing more.
quote:
Did I tell you to shut up?
No, you didn’t. ”Put up or shut up” is a very old, colloquial expression. It’s conditional, not absolute.

Goliath:

quote:
You know Fuji, I wasn't even going to respond at all to this trolling post (The OP) but I did, and yes it was a very simplified answer. {snip} who I assume wishes for a christian theocracy. I did not mean to offend you with any of that by saying people of means are blessed. I do realize people have to work like hell to be able to have good options, but all the hard work can be for naught if the policies the government makes ends up in a collapsed economy.
Boy, Goliath, when you decide to be wrong about someone’s intentions, you don’t go halfway about it.

First, this isn’t a trolling post. I brought up a legitimate question, regardless of how you choose to view it.

Second, I don’t want a Christian theocracy. My Christian principles determine how I live, whom I vote for, etc. But I don’t want Christianity to be the basis of our government.
quote:
It is just as fallacious to say that the policies being advocated by Obama/Biden are wealth redistribution as well. Again that was a response to the OP. One cheap shot answered by another.

I was conflating alot of different concepts in that post. Tax policy, economic policy, political policy....but my main point is leadership. Whether you llike it or not, people claiming to be conservatives have dominated the political and business scene for the last few decades and here we are. Conservatism is as conservatism does, same as christianity or any other label. Your philosophy does indeed make sense and I have heard it for a long time and it is not the conservatism I see in Washington. In a perfect world, your ideas are golden. There are still the hard questions of what to do with children who do not get enough food or health care, as well as their parents, among many other vexxing issues that must be addressed in our society. How do the solutions to these issues get financed?

I appreciate your knowledge and willingness to share that here at the ABB web site. I do not have the time I once had to post here (although we all may have plenty of time soon to post, at least those who can afford an internet connection) and I am very concerned about where we have been led by these hard working millionaires you take up for so enthusiastically.

Again, I did not mean to offend you with a cliff notes version of my take on things in a reply to an offensive troll
I’ve been called Mr. Offensive Troll by better posters than you .
quote:
I am just a hard working, lower middle class taxpayer and my view is obviously different from yours, so, viva la difference, or whatever, LOL.
Bottom line is, so are my wife and I. We want to hold on to as much of our earnings as we can, and decide as much as possible where our taxes and giving will go.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 01:05 PM
OK, to Bill's first question, the moral/ethical authority to tax...we citizens gave it to our government. If you want to question the gov't authority to tax, and the morality thereof, then you must also question the gov't authority to anything. It isn't stealing if you agree that someone can have your property. Those who don't like the tax policy here are free to leave. Please.

Income taxes have always been structured to be progressive (take more as a % from those earning more). It's simply a matter of degree. The top 20% of the population in terms of income pay far more than their share of tax revenues. I believe it's over 50%.

Where I disagree with both sides is that this is NOT a time for a tax cut for anyone. We need to be thinking about massive cuts in gov't spending with no sacred cows and reasonable tax increases to eliminate the deficit and start working on the debt.

Obama's "tax the rich for the benefit of the middle class" idea is simply BS. There's not a single provision in his platform that would help me, a middle class person. That money is ticketed elsewhere and it's pandering to say it isn't.

What's worse is that if Congress goes along with either candidate's tax plan, they should be laughed and then voted out of office.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 01:10 PM
"Can any of the liberals here explain the concrete rationale for this vague notion of fairness? What’s the foundation? The authority? Or is it just the perspective of the one in power? (“Now that I’m the President, cough it up!") Why should anyone who has this much (whether through working hard, investing, inheriting, etc.) be compelled to give some of it up? '
_______________________________________________________________________
It sounds like all taxation would then be wrong based on your beliefs. The only 'new' tax from Obama/Biden is just cutting back the huge breaks given by Bush. Let's not blow this out of proportion.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 01:32 PM
quote:
quote:


I didn't change the subject. I responded to you attempting to establish your credibility by telling us your religious beliefs, as if that gives them some validity. It is a typical Christian ploy.


I wanted to clarify where I get my values, beliefs, etc. Generally, liberals either can’t or won’t do the same.


You get your values the same place we do. From your life experience. Just because we don't have a book we claim is the word of God doesn't mean we are any different than you. Your beliefs exist in your brain, just like ours. I actually think it is a cop-out to claim you get your values from God, and the rest of us don't. Your values are a product of your expereince, just like ours are.




quote:
quote:
It was proven right there in the thread, which you abandoned. You started out by claiming that even though you had said you weren't going to post in the WP anymore, you had some new information that was so important that we had to see it. Then, after it was shot down, you claimed your real reason for the post was an "experiment" to see how the left would respond. It is all right there in the thread. Want me to pull it back up again?


Is it wrong for me to abandon a thread? If so, why? Is it wrong for me to try an experiment? If so, why?


It is wrong if you lie about it to start with. You claimed you had information so important the rest of us had to hear it. That wasn't the case at all, apparently. As you stated yourself before you disappeared.



quote:
quote:
Um, I was talking about Satan. How you got "God" out of that, I have no idea.


Your statement was ambiguous. We don’t blame our lapses on Satan, either. He might nudge, but we’re fully capable of sinning without any outside assistance.


But you do believe in Satan. Correct? That was the point you are trying to avoid.



quote:
quote:
I'm not angry. Are you?
Nope. But frustrated – you still haven’t answered the question. You’ve blown a lot of smoke, nothing more.


I didn't attempt to answer your question. I have no need, or desire to.

Your basic attitude seems to be that you are right, because you are a Christian, and the rest of us are wrong, because we are liberals. I'm calling bullsh*t on that, nothing more.


 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 01:46 PM
quote:
quote:
Your basic attitude seems to be that you are right, because you are a Christian, and the rest of us are wrong, because we are liberals. I'm calling bullsh*t on that, nothing more.
I second that call.
No. My basic thought (not attitude) is that biblical teachings are correct, and I follow them.

It isn't whether liberals or conservatives (or whoever) are right or wrong, but rather whether they follow what's right or wrong.

I've never claimed to have all the answers, but I do claim that I know where to find them.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 01:46 PM
Yeah, speaking of non sequiturs, the religious component to the argument is a big one. Sure, stealing is wrong from just about any perspective, whether religious or not. But the most immoral person in the world could still fashion many good arguments against progressive taxation. I'm sure that same person could argue any taxes constitutes stealing.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 01:50 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Your basic attitude seems to be that you are right, because you are a Christian, and the rest of us are wrong, because we are liberals. I'm calling bullsh*t on that, nothing more.
I second that call.
No. My basic thought (not attitude) is that biblical teachings are correct, and I follow them.

It isn't whether liberals or conservatives (or whoever) are right or wrong, but rather whether they follow what's right or wrong.

I've never claimed to have all the answers, but I do claim that I know where to find them.

Billastro


I don't blame you for ignoring the rest of my post.

Since you claim to have a source for the answers, here's a question you can answer for me, from your source:

Is slavery wrong?

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 01:57 PM
quote:
Why? Because I hoped you’d answer the questions instead of spewing the way SCB did? As I pointed out in my response to him, changing the subject (and by extension, dodging the question) is a typical liberal approach.



My response had nothing to do with being "liberal." You have pre-judged me according to what you consider my political belief to be. You started off this thread by saying that you don't care what anyone thinks and that the responses had better be framed in a specific way or your would discount them. For a guy who seemingly doesn't care, you sure do place a lot of preconditions on what you want to hear as a response. Isn't my right not to answer just as valid as your right to ask a question?



 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 02:03 PM
Bill, you seem to know an awful lot about "liberals."

Does this information come from the Bible?

I'm guessing Sean Hannity.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 02:17 PM
quote:
I don't blame you for ignoring the rest of my post.

Since you claim to have a source for the answers, here's a question you can answer for me, from your source:

Is slavery wrong?
Legitimate question. I think it's wrong.

The problem with this kind of question is that it ignores some of the social and cultural institutions of the time. I don't have the time (now) to come up with citations online, but will find them if possible. What I've read, however, has said that the word translated as "slavery" covers a number of relationships, many of which were beneficial to the so-called slaves.

In some contexts it amounted to indentured servitude, in some it was almost the equivalent to a form of apprenticeship. Slaves in Jesus' society sometimes became almost like family members. They could buy their freedom, but many chose not to since their living situations were relatively comfortable. Conversely, some masters actively encouraged their "slaves" to move on, since their upkeep might be a drain on the family.

The Bible never explicitly approves of or encourages it, but generally seems to tolerate it.

Billastro

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 10/3/2008 at 02:52 PM
quote:
Hey Billastro, you live by the Bible? Fair enough.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." Mt. 22:21

That was in response to the Pharisees who asked if they should pay taxes to Caesar.
Good point, and I'll amplify it:

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." (Romans 13:1-7)

Ultimately God determines who will lead us. However, our leaders have a responsibility to deal with us in a godly way (I've tried finding this in the Bible with an online search engine using keywords, but haven't succeeded yet...). I still think that raising taxes to compel the rich to benefit the less affluent, is income redistribution, which I equate with theft.

But my original question dealt with the question of fairness, and why Biden applied the word to using the tax system to shuffle money from the richest to the not-so-rich. Yes, government has the ability to do whatever it wants, until the voters turn the rascals out or there's a revolution of some kind. But the fact that the government decrees something doesn't make it morally right. That was the question.

Billastro

 

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