Don't click or your IP will be banned


Hittin' The Web with the Allman Brothers Band Forum
You are not logged in

< Last Thread   Next Thread ><<  1    2  >>Ascending sortDescending sorting  
Author: Subject: "Financial" question...

Zen Peach





Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 01:53 PM
I know there are other threads discussing the various aspects of the economy and this bailout. I have a hard time getting real interested in the nuts and bolts of the whole thing. I've never really participated in the financial world the way most people do. I've never owned a house. I've never had much credit card debt. I just never bought into the whole "American dream" as most people know it. I was born with the curse of the "gypsy blood," and having a house with a picket fence, working on one job for years, serving on the local school board, none of that has ever appealed to me. So I understand that I'm different than most people, and don't expect everyone else to be like me.

I just tell you all that so you might be able to see where I'm coming from. It seems to me that our entire financial system needs to be rethought, and possible rebuilt from the ground up. The present system evolved as it has, but if someone was planning one out, I don't know if this is the way to go. It really goes to the basic structure of our society, I suppose.

We have a few people who are fabulously wealthy, and lives lives that most of the rest of us never will. We have a much larger segment of society that isn't wealthy, but lives well enough, and gets a taste of what the wealthy enjoy often enough to consider that they are living a good life. And we also have a whole bunch of people who spend their entire lives working their butts off for a paycheck on Friday, so they can pay their "bills," and hopefully have enough left over to enjoy a pizza with their family. Many others don't fare that well.

This whole system is built on "credit." When "credit" fails, as it appears to be doing now, people lose money, their jobs, and their homes. And all this is happening because people who aren't wealthy want to live like they are. Our whole society is built around trying to make more money, and therefore "improve" our lives. Since some of us can't make more money, another route is borrowing money.

This whole big thing we call "the economy" is built a round a few of us having lots of money, and the rest of us trying to get more, while those who have it work to make sure the rest of us never get anywhere close to what they have. I think our government has a huge hand in this. The Democrats are trying to help the little guy get a little break, but they are just as much a part of the system as the Republicans. We are all part of the system.

I don't think we should try to "redistribute" the wealth. I think our entire system needs to be replaced. I don't know exactly what a better system would look like. I just don't think we need the credit card industry or the insurance industry, or the "financial markets." We don't need Wall Street, and the health care industry should really be about health care, not about making money.

Am I making any sense here? Is it possible to have a society that is not built so entirely around the accumulation of little green papers, and the toys they allow us to enjoy?

Suppose our economy does completely crumble, or is on the verge of it. We might be forced to rethink the way we "do business." That might be a good thing.

Any thoughts?

 

____________________


 
Replies:

A Peach Supreme



Karma:
Posts: 2262
(2262 all sites)
Registered: 4/14/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:04 PM
Communism comes to mind. Best of luck with that!

 

____________________
Up in the Great White North Eatin' A Peach For Peace!!
http://www.myspace.com/fatbottomdaddy

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:06 PM
Communism never crossed my mind. That system doesn't make any more sense than ours.

 

____________________



 

Sublime Peach



Karma:
Posts: 7168
(7166 all sites)
Registered: 4/7/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:11 PM
I say we try fascism!
 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 23542
(24044 all sites)
Registered: 1/2/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en--izIe5Fw

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:15 PM
I realize this requires some thinking.

Is this really the best way to run a planet?

 

____________________



 

Sublime Peach



Karma:
Posts: 7168
(7166 all sites)
Registered: 4/7/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:27 PM
How about a one world monetary system with the UN at the helm?
 

Sublime Peach



Karma:
Posts: 7260
(7342 all sites)
Registered: 11/29/2001
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:39 PM
It's the best we have come up with so far, as pitiful as it sometimes feels. We are seeing right now what is, I feel, the logical outcome of three decades worth of 'conservative' leadership. Democracy run amok. Government as a means to allow business to play with loaded dice, while at the same time saying how enherently evil government is...people still can find their own private Idaho if they want, though. Everything is always in flux and as we have seen recently, things can change drastically rapidly. When people get fed up enough, and this always happens, things will change. Good ideas, processes that work, etc...will be kept, and the bad discarded. Social evolution is slow, usually. I think we are now in a time where things are being reordered faster than normal. It is exciting, and scary as hell, LOL.

 

____________________
I have an idea: let's pretend we're real human beings.

 
E-Mail User

Universal Peach



Karma:
Posts: 6276
(6294 all sites)
Registered: 7/6/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:49 PM
I know that I have very little economic education but I do get my bills paid every month so with that said how about this............

OK OK, instead of sending the banks 700 billion, how about sending a tax rebate of 3500 dollars to every tax payer in the US, 200 Million is a number I have heard but if its less than send more to every tax payer.

My house could then send the banks 7000 against my household debt, either credit cards or mortgages. This way the banks will get some of their debt load payed off and have some more cash to loan back out, responsibly this time and that will stimulate the economy. I know my economy would improve dramatically. The american people would also benefit.....

what do you mean we really don't have that 700 billion and have to borrow it from foreign banks! What did you guys in congress do, over spend?

 

____________________
Life is too short! Your either a brother or another

 
E-Mail User

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:53 PM
quote:
Social evolution is slow, usually. I think we are now in a time where things are being reordered faster than normal. It is exciting, and scary as hell, LOL.


I agree, David. Thanks for a thoughtful reply.

And thanks for the musical one, BigDave!

I'm really talking about going all the way back to when we first decided that we would put a "monetary value" on everything around us, and on everything we produced, and then began competing with each other for those things of value.

Is that the only possible way for a species like ours to utilize the resources the Creator gave us on this planet? What if we recognized that everything on the planet belongs to each of us equally, and figure out a way for all of us to be able to do what we love every day, and be provided for from the bounty that God gave us, without having to compete for it?

There is a place for competition, but I don't see why it has to be such a huge part of lives. It should have its place. No one should be competing to make more money off providing health care. I think we have our priorities very skewed, in our society, and I know it will take a long time to evolve past it. I think this current breakdown is part of that evolution.

 

____________________



 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 02:55 PM
quote:
I don't think that there is anything inherently wrong with credit, but it requires both the creditor and debtor to enter into the transaction responsibly. The problem we have right now is due to irresponsibilty on both sides. You can't really directly regulate consumer responsibility, but you CAN regulate the creditors and under what terms and conditions they do business with borrowers, thereby indirectly regulating consumer responsibility as well. I think this is the major correction that needs to be made moving forward...

I personally have plenty of good, healthy debt (a car, a house, a credit card which I use out of convenience and not necessity). I live within my means, I always have no matter what my situation was at that time. Now that the economy is effed I face hard times like everyone else, but at least I can be confident that I have made sound decisions up to this point. Without credit I would not have a house or a car... that can't be the way to go.


I agree the system works most of the time. I just don't know if it is the best one.

Remember the world before credit cards? It wasn't that bad?

 

____________________



 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 23542
(24044 all sites)
Registered: 1/2/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 03:13 PM
Well Allen, I am one of those who is stuck in the cycle of credit. I'm up to my eyeballs right now, and there ain't no end in sight.

I got one kid in college and one who'll start college next year. I've never been a planner. I'm a fly by the seat of my pants type of guy. I had no college fund set aside for either kid. We're paying on one loan for my oldest daughter's first year of college and have had to put tuition on our credit card for the last two or three semesters. We're conditioning our youngest daughter to get the best grades she can so she can get as many scholarship offers as she can, combined with federal student aid and Georgia's HOPE scholarship, we'll get her through school without much debt.

I owe more money on my house than I paid for it 17 years ago. That's from rolling over credit card debt and car loans, etc., into our mortgage, so we'd have more mortgage interest to deduct on our taxes. I figure I'm worth more dead than alive with my life insurance. It's enough to cover my indebtedness, plus a little left over. I've bought into the whole American Dream thing. I owe, I owe, so off to work I go. I did it to myself. At least I keep my bills paid, but if I lost my job, or got hurt or sick and couldn't earn a paycheck, I'm about two weeks from bankruptcy.

What do we do to keep this from happening to EVERYBODY? I think they (lenders) need to tighten up on credit approvals, and we, as Americans, need to tighten up and make do with less. If you make credit too available, debtors will load up and default, like what has happened here recently. Other than that, I don't know what to do.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 18593
(18594 all sites)
Registered: 11/20/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 03:22 PM
quote:
I think they (lenders) need to tighten up on credit approvals, and we, as Americans, need to tighten up and make do with less.
No doubt. I think that from the lending perspective this is already starting to happen. Loans that may have been easy to get a couple of months ago are not going to be so easy today. And Americans do need to live more within our means. We have so much really when you look at life in other parts of the world. Many times credit is used to procure stuff, stuff, and more stuff.

 

____________________
"Come on down to the Mermaid Cafe and I will buy you a bottle of wine, and we'll laugh and toast to nothing and smash our empty glasses down..."

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 03:27 PM
Dave, there are millions of Americans who have a very similar story. That's why I think there must be a better way. I really feel for you. My son is grown, and I'm single again, so I don't have all the responsibility you do. You're a good man for doing what you do.

 

____________________



 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 19435
(19449 all sites)
Registered: 6/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 03:44 PM
quote:
Is that the only possible way for a species like ours to utilize the resources the Creator gave us on this planet? What if we recognized that everything on the planet belongs to each of us equally, and figure out a way for all of us to be able to do what we love every day, and be provided for from the bounty that God gave us, without having to compete for it?




Because it goes against the nature of humans. That is the problem with far end socialism and communism, as it doesn't take into account human nature. Humans respond to incentive, and competition means moving forward. The "good old days" before towns and cities and civilization meant low life expectancies and early death. Everything that happened concerning this crsis was avoidable because bad decisions were made by humans, both on the corporate level and on the every day joe level.. Real simple- don't use credit cards, don't buy insurance, don't invest in the "financial markets."

Basically, we needed this tweak, and it has happened a few times in our history. In the late 1880's, the monopolies enabled the Industrial Revolution to rise and form quickly and efficiently with rail roads and energy being steady. At first, the advent of the monopolies allowed folks to expand and start new business in a way they couldn't before. When the monopolies got out of hand and stifled competition, Teddy Roosevelt stepped in and thankfully curtailed the monopoly's power to unleash the ability of smaller businesses and entrepreneurs to innovate and create. That led to the flourishing of the stock market because that is where business people got the money to start companies and invest in their new businesses and/or to expand their businesses in the new climate of greater competition. Then, in 1929, due to human nature, the stock market became excessive and crashed and there were safeguards put in after the fact that enabled this country to grow at an amazing rate with the standard of living growing at a level that has never been seen in the history of the world. Now, because of human nature once again, folks on the corporate level were trying to get an advantage and buy on margin and leveraging themselves thinking the market would continue to grow upwards and they were wrong and they got caught. And, folks buying too-good-to-be-true mortgages for no money down and low payments ran into the proverbial brick wall that was in the fine print the whole time. The combination of these two things mixed with other considerations, such as the world economy interconnectedness that is a real factor in this 21st century, all came together to give us this problem. All of it could have been stopped, all of it pints back to human nature getting out of hand and needing tweaked.

As Warren Buffet said last night in an excellent interview on Charlie Rose - If AIG had never heard of the word 'derivatives' then they would be intact and sitting pretty right now and doing good business.

It doesn't take but a little effort to look into all of this to learn. A good start would be to watch or read Buffet's interview on Charlie Rose last night, with Rose providing the best coverage on this crsis from day one. As Buffet says, we are in real unprecedented trouble here, but we can once again tweak human nature and make it right and we will still have a higher standard of living in ten years than now. At the core of why Buffet is successful is understanding human nature and common sense. If a business can't be described to him in simple terms that his aunt would understand, he doesn't mess with it.

I'll let him speak for himself -
http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/10/01/1/an-exclusive-conversation-wit h-warren-buffett

quote:
Is that the only possible way for a species like ours to utilize the resources the Creator gave us on this planet?


Innovation based on competition and the drive it puts on humans has enabled us to get so much more crops per acre of land now than in the "good old days" to the point that there is no comparison. God gave us brains and sometimes we use them wrongly, sometimes we are in over our heads, yet other times we do good and incentive triggers innovation. Human nature.

[Edited on 10/2/2008 by DerekFromCincinnati]

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 23542
(24044 all sites)
Registered: 1/2/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 03:45 PM
quote:
Dave, there are millions of Americans who have a very similar story. That's why I think there must be a better way. I really feel for you. My son is grown, and I'm single again, so I don't have all the responsibility you do. You're a good man for doing what you do.
I know what you're saying, Allen, but I'm wondering if I'll be in financial shape to retire in 15-20 years. In hind sight, there are a lot of things I have done I wish I could undo. At least maybe I can educate my daughters to not make the same mistakes I made, as I have already been doing by encouraging them to get a college education to better prepare for adulthood. One thing I'll tell them is, "Don't cash out your 401K to pay down debt, because you'll run your debt right back up, and you'll have nothing for retirement." I'm on my 2nd 401K now. Maybe it'll be something by the time I retire....if I don't die first.

 

____________________

 

Universal Peach



Karma:
Posts: 6276
(6294 all sites)
Registered: 7/6/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 03:50 PM
Dave, I got your back if I ever hit the Powerball, so ya have that going for ya!

 

____________________
Life is too short! Your either a brother or another

 
E-Mail User

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 04:02 PM
quote:
quote:
Is that the only possible way for a species like ours to utilize the resources the Creator gave us on this planet? What if we recognized that everything on the planet belongs to each of us equally, and figure out a way for all of us to be able to do what we love every day, and be provided for from the bounty that God gave us, without having to compete for it?




Because it goes against the nature of humans. That is the problem with far end socialism and communism, as it doesn't take into account human nature. Humans respond to incentive, and competition means moving forward. The "good old days" before towns and cities and civilization meant low life expectancies and early death. Everything that happened concerning this crsis was avoidable because bad decisions were made by humans, both on the corporate level and on the every day joe level.. Real simple- don't use credit cards, don't buy insurance, don't invest in the "financial markets."

Basically, we needed this tweak, and it has happened a few times in our history. In the late 1880's, the monopolies enabled the Industrial Revolution to rise and form quickly and efficiently with rail roads and energy being steady. At first, the advent of the monopolies allowed folks to expand and start new business in a way they couldn't before. When the monopolies got out of hand and stifled competition, Teddy Roosevelt stepped in and thankfully curtailed the monopoly's power to unleash the ability of smaller businesses and entrepreneurs to innovate and create. That led to the flourishing of the stock market because that is where business people got the money to start companies and invest in their new businesses and/or to expand their businesses in the new climate of greater competition. Then, in 1929, due to human nature, the stock market became excessive and crashed and there were safeguards put in after the fact that enabled this country to grow at an amazing rate with the standard of living growing at a level that has never been seen in the history of the world. Now, because of human nature once again, folks on the corporate level were trying to get an advantage and buy on margin and leveraging themselves thinking the market would continue to grow upwards and they were wrong and they got caught. And, folks buying too-good-to-be-true mortgages for no money down and low payments ran into the proverbial brick wall that was in the fine print the whole time. The combination of these two things mixed with other considerations, such as the world economy interconnectedness that is a real factor in this 21st century, all came together to give us this problem. All of it could have been stopped, all of it pints back to human nature getting out of hand and needing tweaked.

As Warren Buffet said last night in an excellent interview on Charlie Rose - If AIG had never heard of the word 'derivatives' then they would be intact and sitting pretty right now and doing good business.

It doesn't take but a little effort to look into all of this to learn. A good start would be to watch or read Buffet's interview on Charlie Rose last night, with Rose providing the best coverage on this crsis from day one. As Buffet says, we are in real unprecedented trouble here, but we can once again tweak human nature and make it right and we will still have a higher standard of living in ten years than now. At the core of why Buffet is successful is understanding human nature and common sense. If a business can't be described to him in simple terms that his aunt would understand, he doesn't mess with it.

I'll let him speak for himself -
http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2008/10/01/1/an-exclusive-conversation-wit h-warren-buffett

quote:
Is that the only possible way for a species like ours to utilize the resources the Creator gave us on this planet?


Innovation based on competition and the drive it puts on humans has enabled us to get so much more crops per acre of land now than in the "good old days" to the point that there is no comparison. God gave us brains and sometimes we use them wrongly, sometimes we are in over our heads, yet other times we do good and incentive triggers innovation. Human nature.

[Edited on 10/2/2008 by DerekFromCincinnati]


I think you are wrong about innovation being based on competition. There are many facets to human nature. Competition is one of them, and it isn't the only catalyst for innovation. Look at how children interact. They instinctively help each other. They don't instinctively compete with each other. They have to be taught to do that.

That was necessary for our species to evolve and survive, and the enjoyment of competition certainly is a part of our makeup. But I think that as we evolve we'll make better use of it. If we could take the energy wasted in competing for the very basics of survival, and channel it into doing things that help everybody equally, we might be a much happier people.

 

____________________



 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 19435
(19449 all sites)
Registered: 6/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 04:05 PM
quote:
I think you are wrong about innovation being based on competition. There are many facets to human nature. Competition is one of them, and it isn't the only catalyst for innovation. Look at how children interact. They instinctively help each other. They don't instinctively compete with each other. They have to be taught to do that.



I disagree because when they get into their teenage years all bets are off. Look at the quotes about teenagers from all of history in civilizations that existed before capitalism.

Adults can help each other as well, but there are specific reasons why communism does not work. Why give a damn when you are going to be taken care of anyway?? There are always those crabs in the barrell.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 04:06 PM
quote:
quote:
Dave, there are millions of Americans who have a very similar story. That's why I think there must be a better way. I really feel for you. My son is grown, and I'm single again, so I don't have all the responsibility you do. You're a good man for doing what you do.
I know what you're saying, Allen, but I'm wondering if I'll be in financial shape to retire in 15-20 years. In hind sight, there are a lot of things I have done I wish I could undo. At least maybe I can educate my daughters to not make the same mistakes I made, as I have already been doing by encouraging them to get a college education to better prepare for adulthood. One thing I'll tell them is, "Don't cash out your 401K to pay down debt, because you'll run your debt right back up, and you'll have nothing for retirement." I'm on my 2nd 401K now. Maybe it'll be something by the time I retire....if I don't die first.


Retirement is something I doubt I'll ever experience. I haven't put back anything for that, and I imagine I'll be working until I die. But that's not so bad, if you're doing something you like.

 

____________________



 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 19435
(19449 all sites)
Registered: 6/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 04:07 PM
quote:
That was necessary for our species to evolve and survive, and the enjoyment of competition certainly is a part of our makeup. But I think that as we evolve we'll make better use of it. If we could take the energy wasted in competing for the very basics of survival, and channel it into doing things that help everybody equally, we might be a much happier people.




with who in charge??

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 18593
(18594 all sites)
Registered: 11/20/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 04:10 PM
quote:
One thing I'll tell them is, "Don't cash out your 401K to pay down debt, because you'll run your debt right back up, and you'll have nothing for retirement."
And tell them to start putting into it early. I'm sitting ok but I sure wish I would have gotten serious about investments long before I did.

 

____________________
"Come on down to the Mermaid Cafe and I will buy you a bottle of wine, and we'll laugh and toast to nothing and smash our empty glasses down..."

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 04:13 PM
quote:
quote:
I think you are wrong about innovation being based on competition. There are many facets to human nature. Competition is one of them, and it isn't the only catalyst for innovation. Look at how children interact. They instinctively help each other. They don't instinctively compete with each other. They have to be taught to do that.



I disagree because when they get into their teenage years all bets are off. Look at the quotes about teenagers from all of history in civilizations that existed before capitalism.

Adults can help each other as well, but there are specific reasons why communism does not work. Why give a damn when you are going to be taken care of anyway?? There are always those crabs in the barrell.


I'm not talking about communism, or anything like it. Human beings give a damn. That is also part of human nature. People do things all the time, just to be helpful, or because it is the right thing to do, or because the notion strikes them. That is our nature. They don't need "competition" to go to work each day, like BigDave does, and earn a paycheck to support their family. They do that out of love.

And if we had a society structured so that BigDave could work 40 hours a week doing something he loved, but that was also a benefit to society, and know that all of his needs would be taken care of, what do you think he'd do? I bet he'd figure out something he could do that would fit that bill, and he'd do it. Competition wouldn't come into the picture. He could play softball if he wanted to compete.

Sorry for using you as an example, Dave. You were just close by.

 

____________________



 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 04:15 PM
quote:
quote:
That was necessary for our species to evolve and survive, and the enjoyment of competition certainly is a part of our makeup. But I think that as we evolve we'll make better use of it. If we could take the energy wasted in competing for the very basics of survival, and channel it into doing things that help everybody equally, we might be a much happier people.




with who in charge??


That's something we'd have to figure out. I'd say a committee of 2000 of the best minds in the world.

 

____________________



 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 19435
(19449 all sites)
Registered: 6/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 10/2/2008 at 04:20 PM
quote:
I'm not talking about communism, or anything like it. Human beings give a damn. That is also part of human nature. People do things all the time, just to be helpful, or because it is the right thing to do, or because the notion strikes them. That is our nature. They don't need "competition" to go to work each day, like BigDave does, and earn a paycheck to support their family. They do that out of love.



Big Dave doesn't automatically get a paycheck "just because," nor does his company do good because success was assigned to them by whoever is in charge of the care-free Beautiful World. It is in his interest for his company to compete and be the best they can be therefore enabling Dave to be paid on regular basis. That competition forces the various companies to think about how they do things and to be better than the next guy, and better ways of doing the job comes out of that.

What if everybody wanted to play softball for a living?

quote:
That's something we'd have to figure out. I'd say a committee of 2000 of the best minds in the world.




Without the population getting to choose them? What if they are wrong, who comes in to correct the situation??

 

____________________

 
<<  1    2  >>  


Powered by XForum 1.81.1 by Trollix Software


Privacy | Terms of Service
The ALLMAN BROTHERS BAND name, The ALLMAN BROTHERS name, likenesses, logos, mushroom design and peach truck are all registered trademarks of THE ABB MERCHANDISING CO., INC. whose rights are specifically reserved. Any artwork, visual, or audio representations used on this web site CONTAINING ANY REGISTERED TRADEMARKS are under license from The ABB MERCHANDISING CO., INC. A REVOCABLE, GRATIS LICENSE IS GRANTED TO ALL REGISTERED PEACH CORP MEMBERS FOR The DOWNLOADING OF ONE COPY FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. ANY DISTRIBUTION OR REPRODUCTION OF THE TRADEMARKS CONTAINED HEREIN ARE PROHIBITED AND ARE SPECIFICALLY RESERVED BY THE ABB MERCHANDISING CO.,INC.
site by Hittin' the Web Group with www.experiencewasabi3d.com