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Author: Subject: The Southern Rock label...

Ultimate Peach





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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 01:29 AM
This is an offshoot of the "Top 10 Southern Rock Albums" thread

I continue...meaning its been this way for several years...to be absolutely mystified by how many fans of this music..(and even some members of the ABB themselves)...are offended by, or at least want to distance themself from the term "Southern Rock"

WHAT...IS...THE...BIG...DEAL????

I honestly dont understand.

The ABB, Marshall Tucker, Charlie Daniels Band, Wet Willie, Lynyrd Skynyrd, etc (bands who started it all) are all bands who had 2 things in common.

1) They all were products of the part of the USA known as "The South."

2) They all were fusion bands to some extent, blending together different musical forms that were products of the south. (Blues, Jazz, R & B, Rock and Roll, and Country.)

So....the term "Southern Rock" came into being, because it "fit". It was completely logical...and accurate. I was born and raised in the South, and still live here. I am proud of the musical heritage of the south, and always took it as a compliment to have a genre of music called "southern rock".

To me, when I hear that term "Southern Rock", what pops into my mind is rock/jazz/blues/country fusion music, stressing extended improvisation.

I'm not trying to get anyone riled up, I am only seeking understanding.

What is it that bothers so many so?

"D"

[Edited on 7/16/2008 by D28guy]

[Edited on 7/16/2008 by D28guy]

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 01:40 AM



The Allman Brothers Band fans cannot allow for their favorite band to be grouped with other acts that came from the South. It does not suit their snotty sensibilities.

Any TRUE RADICAL ABB fan has to spew out tons of verbal garbage about how the ABB was and is a band of fusions of SOUL, BLUES, ROCK, COUNTRY, JAZZ, etc.


A TRUE RADICAL ABB FAN has to turn what the band does into an ART and a RELIGION.


They have to place the band upon a PEDESTAL so the band and the fans can look down their noses at ever other southern act.


A TRUE RADICAL ABB FAN would be MORTIFIED to find their favorite ABB band grouped alongside Molly Hatchet, 38 Special, the Outlaws, Skynyrd, MTB.


A lot of their snottiness has merit and a lot of it is just plain snot.



 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 01:45 AM
It does not suit their snotty sensibilities

Don't you mean snooty? Snobby would work too....

<edit>

I've had a bit of time on my hands lately and have been hanging around the boards more than usual. Dean, what in the world makes you think that the folks here have no love for the other bands you mentioned? Maybe I missed something?

Me thinks you're just looking for another fight......

<getting ready to nuke the popcorn>



[Edited on 7/16/2008 by jcb]

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 02:14 AM
JaminRebel,

quote:
"The Allman Brothers Band fans cannot allow for their favorite band to be grouped with other acts that came from the South. It does not suit their snotty sensibilities.

Any TRUE RADICAL ABB fan has to spew out tons of verbal garbage about how the ABB was and is a band of fusions of SOUL, BLUES, ROCK, COUNTRY, JAZZ, etc.


A TRUE RADICAL ABB FAN has to turn what the band does into an ART and a RELIGION.


They have to place the band upon a PEDESTAL so the band and the fans can look down their noses at ever other southern act.


A TRUE RADICAL ABB FAN would be MORTIFIED to find their favorite ABB band grouped alongside Molly Hatchet, 38 Special, the Outlaws, Skynyrd, MTB.


A lot of their snottiness has merit and a lot of it is just plain snot."


Well, I certainly consider the Allman Brothers Band to be the "pinnacle" of this form of music. They are the best of the best. They are the standard that all others are measured against.

But all those other bands never bothered me one bit. They all had..or still have..their "niche" in the grand scheme of things.


"D"


 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 02:47 AM
quote:
It does not suit their snotty sensibilities

Don't you mean snooty? Snobby would work too....

<edit>

I've had a bit of time on my hands lately and have been hanging around the boards more than usual. Dean, what in the world makes you think that the folks here have no love for the other bands you mentioned? Maybe I missed something?

Me thinks you're just looking for another fight......

<getting ready to nuke the popcorn>



[Edited on 7/16/2008 by jcb]



Yeah, jcb, I've been a little or a lot acrid and vitriolic. I meant to say SNOTTY. I know what SNOOTY is as well. I chose SNOTTY to imply that the crowd can be more mean spirited.


Every discussion we have ever had usually slams Skynyrd even the ORIGINAL band and their accomplishments.


Look, whether I'm harsh or not I really don't care. I meant what I said and I said what I meant. I KNOW that I am right about a lot of what I have read in this forum over the last few years.


Meanwhile in other band forums, especially Southern Rock, you are lucky to have a website with a forum.


Hey, the ABB have kept it going and going pretty strong while other bands lost most of their steam long ago.


Does that mean that we should turn the ABB's work and legacy into an art and religion????


A lot of dopey people want to do this. I am calling them dopey to piss them off.


The ABB is and has been a great band and I really tire of folks turning these guys and and their skills into rock and roll deities with great powers.


To an extent they are right and to a great extent they jump on the band wagon wagging their finger at ever other band and band format.


For instance, if your band doesn't improvise onstage then most in this crowd have little use for them. And I know this isn't true for many but if I hear the improvisation argument again I just might goe freaking postal.


Lots of great bands such as FREE rarely practiced improvisation on stage.


Many bands improvise to a degree, many don't.


Many bands don't have the audience that wants to allow them to STRETCH THINGS OUT, as abb folks are always trying to stress.


Those 10 minute jams that characterize so many abb songs are sometimes so freaking tedious. But then too I've listened to over 200 abb shows. So my ears and mind are tired of much of it.




[Edited on 7/16/2008 by JaminRebel]

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 03:32 AM
I'll go down fighting w/ you against any original Skynyrd bashers. And I love Free.

However this is "The Allman Brothers Band" website, maybe your expectations are too high?

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 05:23 AM
quote:
However this is "The Allman Brothers Band" website, maybe your expectations are too high?




Yeah, I'm setting the bar really high for the crowd but I'll be grading them on the curve.







 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 05:37 AM
Ok, I'll throw my .02 in here on this. The "southern rock" label gets my goat..for a couple of reasons. First would be the original ABB's ability to interpret the music they heard and were influenced by in their everyday lives. Take a look at the list of musicians that has been discussed here on this site and stack that up against the music that influenced them enough for them to emulate it on their records. Coltrane, King Curtis, T-Bone walker, Elmore James, Roland Kirk, Blind Willie McTell, Robert Johnson, Sonny Boy Williamson, Muddy Waters, Willie Dixon, Willie Cobb, B.B. King, Taj Mahal...the list is endless. Like it or not... those are BLUES artists. That ability to "stretch songs out"...and to "improvise" is what made the band the ABB, it is what made them different, not better, ...different. That "difference" is what attracted people to their shows & their records...this was a road that had never been traveled before. People had never heard anything quite like this before. Their songs weren't about just drinking and fighting, they were about real life experiences that came very close to what a lot of these famous blues people had been through. When the Allmans played, you could feel the agony, the pain, the emotion. Their instruments became the outlet for that expression of feeling. That is the epitome of the blues.

Secondly... speaking only for myself...I feel the term "Southern rock" was born in those late night TV ads marketing bands like Molly Hatchet, Skynyrd, .38 special, blackfoot, etc. ...that were nothing more than rock 'n roll bands that came from a southern state. It was a marketing ploy. Do I feel the Allmans are above that?,...Yes, I do. There isn't one guitar player in the list above of bands above that could carry Duane's jock. Not one. Were the musicians in those bands talented? Absolutely. Were they excellent songwriters?... you betcha. But it was the influences, the reasons the brothers picked up guitars in the first place that separates them from the rest. Now keep in mind, my argument applies only to the original band, after Duane passed, everything changed. Did some of these bands from the south, hold Duane and Gregg and Dickey in high regard?.. Yes and rightly so, they were the first and they were the best. period. But these bands didn't follow the same path, the Allmans just opened the door for other bands from Southern states to be recognized. That in my opinion is where the connection ends.

Led Zeppelin & ..........Chad & Jeremy are from England... Do you put them in the same category?

The Beach Boys and Quicksilver Messenger service are both from California... are they the same?

How anyone can call "Stormy Monday"... "You Don't Love Me"...."Statesboro Blues"..& "Done somebody wrong " from LAFE.. "Southern rock"...boggles my mind. That is the Blues.. brother, plain and simple.


But then again...it is all about interpretation, if Duane was still with us, I'll bet he'd say the same thing.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 07:07 AM
I believe the ABB do not consider themselves Southern Rock...if the band doesn't, why on earth would we?

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 08:54 AM
Stated for about the 600,000th time ...

To begin with, the term "Southern Rock" is just an oxymoron. It's like saying, "Chinese Eggroll", or "Italian Spaghetti". Rock and Roll IS Southern. Most of it's pioneers (Elvis, Carl Perkins, Little Richard, Fats Domino, et al) were southerners. The music itself is an amalgam mainly rooted in Delta Blues. If you're keeping score, the "Delta" is in the south.

Let me preface my next remarks by saying that Lynyrd Skynnyrd, Molly Hatchett, 38 Special - all of those acts are truly very fine bands who play fine music. What I am about to say should be taken in no way as a knock against those, or any other act that you deem to be a "Southern Rock" band.

The music of the Allman Brother's Band is just a lot more sophisticated in structure than that of the aforementioned bands. The song structure veers from the typical "verse-chorus-verse - three minutes and out" style of not only those bands, but most other commercial (read "pop music") acts.

The term that so nauseates so many of us was coined by some record label-marketing type. I have been told that this label was created by Phil Walden, himself. With no disrespect intended towards the late Mr. Walden, I think it is completely fair to color him a "record label-marketing type". It was his job.

There is also a problem in defining exactly what a "southern rock" band is. The B-52's are a rock band from the south. So are bands like REM, 3 Doors Down and Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. Bands like Little Feat and Foghat are not from the south. Yet they seem to fit into this category more easily than do Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.

Snootiness or snobbiness? Sure! Some of that exists. To fully appreciate this, you would need to have been around in the earlier days of the Allman Brother's Band and to have witnessed the arrival of some of these latter acts.

When the Allman Brother's Band arrived, they were received mainly by a counter-cultural group of folks. The band's music was not commercially accessible, so many of these early followers discovered this music through fellow travelers and/or counter-cultural type events (free concerts in Piedmont Park, for example).

Fast-forward a few years and find a great bar-band receiving heavy rotation on commercial radio. That one of this bar-band's influences happened to be the Allman Brother's Band would become something of a mixed blessing.

New followers of this successful bar-band would discover the music of the Allman Brother's Band. Soon, via means of some sort of free-association, people would automatically categorize the music of one band with the other.

Quite often when I'm wearing an Allman Brother's Band T-shirt, somebody will come up and tell me that they are a HUGE Lynyrd Skynnyrd fan. "That's nice", I tell them. Depending on my mood at the time, I may or may not tell them that they are likening apples to oranges.

It doesn't take a qualified musicologist to listen to music the two bands and by comparison notice that one's music is way more sophisticated than the other. In fact, some of the more long and drawn out selections of the Allman Brother's Band's music becomes tiresome to ears more appreciative of Lynyrd Skynnyrd. I went to high school with a bunch of folks who discovered "Eat a Peach" via this "southern rock" connection. Many of these folks enjoyed "Blue Sky" and "One Way Out", but they could never sit through "Mountain Jam" in its entirety.

Then there was another phenomena. The music of each band seemed to actually create or draw a slightly, yet noticeably different clientele.

I saw the original Lynyrd Skynnyrd line-up several times in their earliest days. Once they established a mass-market success, their audiences began to change. This phenomena went beyond music and into culture at large. For instance, many of the types of folks who once hassled long-haired young men ("hippies") were now sporting longer locks themselves. This part of the cultural phenomena would best be addressed in a separate essay. Let's skip this section for now.

The audiences at Lynyrd Skynnyrd shows, as well as those at other "southern rock" shows began to reflect a slightly more backwoods behavior when compared to the counter-cultural aspect of the early shows by the Allman Brother's Band. I can personally give detailed accounts of the appearance of Confederate flags, drunkeness and even violence at Lynyrd Skynnyrd shows that just weren't evident at early Allman Brothers' Band shows.

Other people noticed this behavior, too.

I have friends who are more "snobbier" and "snootier" than any of you deem loyal Allman Brother's Band supporters to be. On more than one occasion, I have walked into a gathering wearing my "Eat a Peach" shirt to be greeted by cynical vocal renditions of songs like, "Ramblin Man" followed by shared laughter. They all look at each other in knowing fashion. They have already decided that I am some sort of rube or red neck for my musical preferences.

This reaction on their behalf is based on their perception and reaction to their experiences with what they have come to know as "Southern Rock". I have even had a couple of them walk around behind me to see if I had a concealed "mullet" haircut. I do get a kick out of them!

I typically have the last laugh. I'll enter a discussion with these folks to find that their only knowledge of the music of the Allman Brother's Band comes from what they've heard on Top-40 radio. Their perception is based on the association of "Ramblin Man" with "Saturday Night Special".

I have taken those with the most open minds and exposed them to the music of Allman Brother's Band. Quite often, they come away with an entirely different appreciation and perception of this music. A most recent example was at Donna's and my recent "Birth-a-versary" party. Many of the folks who attended were just unfamiliar with the Allman Brother's Band - beyond what they had heard on the radio. Once they actually heard this music (played by Brent and the Skydogs) they were overwhelmed.

Again, I do not intend to downgrade or abase the music of "southern rock" bands outside the Allman Brother's Band. I just find that they don't necessarily belong on the same shelf with the Allman Brother's Band.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 09:39 AM
Rusty, that was fun. It was like the old singing frog WB cartoon, except this time the frog really did sing in front of the audience, in all it's glory.

Here's my .02.....the one thing all these bands have in common is that they freely admit they would have never existed had Duane Allman chosen to stay with Liberty Records in California, do the corporate thing. Thus they are parts of a unique group. A group that needs a name that separates it from the rest. Like "Motown" or "Brittish Invasion" or "Jam band" or "San Francisco sound." If Southern Rock is not acceptable, I believe that another term is needed for identifying the group. Although there are vast differences between them, just as there are vast differences between Marvin Gaye and the Marvellettes, between Herman's Hermits and the Yardbirds, there is a commonality among all that evolved from Walden, Capricorn, and Duane. If not Southern Rock, then something that identifies the group. For musical history for future generations, if nothing else.

 
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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 10:42 AM
A brother who is transplanted from California borrowed my ipod last night.
He flicked it onto my ABB list.
He listened to the 1st ABB LP ( cd ? ) 4 times.
Told me that was some of the best blues he had ever heard and he had no idea the ABB were a band that played music like that.
He got to Fillmore.
He wants the entire ABB catalogue now.

Who's Lyntrd Skynyrd ?

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 11:50 AM
Call me snotty, or call me snooty, but Molly Hatchet is to the Allman Brothers what I am to Berry Oakley.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 12:36 PM
BigV and Rusty, your posts are excellent and present something a lot of Southerners feel. Y'all have made very good observations and arguments. I enjoyed reading them both.

Gregg has said he doesn't like the "Southern Rock" label because it is limiting. He also doesn't like the "jam band" label. ABB is a band that jams, not a jam band. We've all heard that many times.

I have argued that rock is Southern, too. But it is a label we can't seem to get away from. As Randy said, the ABB should have a named genre. At this point I accept the Southern Rock label for the 70's bands from the south, the ABB being the very best and standard setter. I am just proud to be Southern.

Still I love the original LS, MTB and Blackfoot. But, no other band, Southern or not could touch the ABB. That's my .02 cents.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 12:54 PM
And although everyone has already touched on all the great points, I do want to reiterate that "southern rock" is a very generic label, which is why it bothers the people it bothers. Sort of like "brit pop", your putting a location on top of a musical genre as if that changes the music. You can call the ABB "rock", "blues", "pop", "jazz", "funk", "country", whatever you want, it is all still just music and doesn't really need to be categorized into anything so specifically generic.
 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 01:11 PM
'Marketing'.........simple as that. Gregg and Dickey always said the ABB was a blues band.
I'll go with that. But, I take nothing away from all the other great bands under that label. That is, and continues to be, the best music ever made. Thank you Brothers
Duane and Berry for your vision and sticking to your guns.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 03:22 PM
What Rusty said

The level of sophistication of the ABB's music is so much higher than what most people identify as "southern rock", that is what irks me.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 03:35 PM
quote:



Those 10 minute jams that characterize so many abb songs are sometimes so freaking tedious.




Classic Rock has made 'Free Bird' the most "tedious" 10 minutes on the radio today

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 04:13 PM
There is a condescending response in this thread that I could have predicted from a mile away. Stinky bait (aka picking a predictable fight) is what we call it on a favorite sports board I read.

For me, the ABB were more Southern rock with tunes like Ramblin Man, Melissa, Blue Sky....the ones where Dickey's southern style became more prominent. I never really bought into Gregg's opinion that Southern Rock is a redundant term because by the time The ABB came around, rock was being played all over this country, England and really the world. It was rock bands that had similar traits that were all from the same region of the country....

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 04:43 PM
quote:
quote:



Those 10 minute jams that characterize so many abb songs are sometimes so freaking tedious.




Classic Rock has made 'Free Bird' the most "tedious" 10 minutes on the radio today



That's only because radio stations don't play Desdemona, Stormy Monday, In Memory of Elizabeth Reed or for that matter most any long winded ABB tune.


I'm not a fan of Freebird from the first lp. I agree, it's good but extremely overplayed. A better choice would be Freebird from the soundtrack disc of "Freebird The Movie."


 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 04:47 PM
Yeah, Tim, there's been a lot of that in the last few days.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 04:48 PM
And, it seems. more to come.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 04:50 PM




It never ceases to amaze me how we get these small novels explaining why the Allman Brothers are the best band ever. ABB fans just have to make sure their band is number ONE.


And it all boils down to arguments of how Sknyrd and Hatchet are or were, are still crap as the brothers soar to ever greater heights.


But you know the Beatles never played all that improvisational stuff either and the Rolling Stones rarely stretch it out either. True they have stretched out tunes like Sympathy for the Devil and Midnight Rambler. But whens the last time you heard the Stones playing a long winded jam?

Who goes to shows to hear the Stones playing long winded jams? Is long winded one or two words?


 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 04:53 PM




Oh, and Pink Floyd doesn't do the long jam either, do they?


But OH GOD, Zep would play those hideous jams. Truely dreadful much of it. Ghastly dark versions of Dazed and Confused. John Bohnam playing drums on Moby Dick for 20 minutes. I found out that I really don't like Zep too much live. I'm not even rocking out to Zep at all these days. I just don't like hearing them anymore.




 

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  posted on 7/16/2008 at 04:55 PM
There is a condescending response in this thread that I could have predicted from a mile away. Stinky bait (aka picking a predictable fight) is what we call it on a favorite sports board I read.

If you're referring to my use of the terms "snooty" and "snobby" you completely missed the sarcasm dripping from my brain. I guess the popcorn comment was uncalled for.

(and yes, JR is looking for a fight)

 

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