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Author: Subject: Margaret Sanger - founder of Planned Parenthood - on abortion

A Peach Supreme





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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 04:24 PM
Margaret Sanger quotes
Founder of Planned Parenthood

Margaret Sanger founder of the International Planned Parenthood Federation, was a proponent of forced eugenics, segregation, abortion, birth control and sexual immorality. Here are some of her quotes.

"The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."

Margaret Sanger (editor). The Woman Rebel, Volume I, Number 1. Reprinted in Woman and the New Race. New York: Brentanos Publishers, 1922.


"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."

Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control. New York: New York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12.


"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."

Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255 Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America. New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.


"Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent multiplication of this bad stock."

Margaret Sanger, April 1933 Birth Control Review.


"Eugenics is … the most adequate and thorough avenue to the solution of racial, political and social problems.

Margaret Sanger. "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda." Birth Control Review, October 1921, page 5.


"Birth control itself, often denounced as a violation of natural law, is nothing more or less than the facilitation of the process of weeding out the unfit, of preventing the birth of defectives or of those who will become defectives."

[no source available at this time...]


As an advocate of birth control I wish ... to point out that the unbalance between the birth rate of the 'unfit' and the 'fit,' admittedly the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be held up for emulation....On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.

Margaret Sanger. "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda." Birth Control Review, October 1921, page 5.


"The campaign for birth control is not merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims of eugenics."

Margaret Sanger. "The Eugenic Value of Birth Control Propaganda." Birth Control Review, October 1921, page 5.


"Our failure to segregate morons who are increasing and multiplying ... demonstrates our foolhardy and extravagant sentimentalism ... [Philanthropists] encourage the healthier and more normal sections of the world to shoulder the burden of unthinking and indiscriminate fecundity of others; which brings with it, as I think the reader must agree, a dead weight of human waste. Instead of decreasing and aiming to eliminate the stocks that are most detrimental to the future of the race and the world, it tends to render them to a menacing degree dominant ... We are paying for, and even submitting to, the dictates of an ever-increasing, unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born at all."

Margaret Sanger. The Pivot of Civilization, 1922. Chapter on "The Cruelty of Charity," pages 116, 122, and 189. Swarthmore College Library edition.


"The undeniably feeble-minded should, indeed, not only be discouraged but prevented from propagating their kind."

Margaret Sanger, quoted in Charles Valenza. "Was Margaret Sanger a Racist?" Family Planning Perspectives, January-February 1985, page 44.


"The third group [of society] are those irresponsible and reckless ones having little regard for the consequences of their acts, or whose religious scruples prevent their exercising control over their numbers. Many of this group are diseased, feeble-minded, and are of the pauper element dependent upon the normal and fit members of society for their support. There is no doubt in the minds of all thinking people that the procreation of this group should be stopped."

Margaret Sanger. Speech quoted in Birth Control: What It Is, How It Works, What It Will Do. The Proceedings of the First American Birth Control Conference. Held at the Hotel Plaza, New York City, November 11-12, 1921. Published by the Birth Control Review, Gothic Press, pages 172 and 174.


"The marriage bed is the most degenerative influence in the social order..."

Margaret Sanger (editor). The Woman Rebel, Volume I, Number 1. Reprinted in Woman and the New Race. New York: Brentanos Publishers, 1922.


"[Our objective is] unlimited sexual gratification without the burden of unwanted children..."

Margaret Sanger (editor). The Woman Rebel, Volume I, Number 1. Reprinted in Woman and the New Race. New York: Brentanos Publishers, 1922.


"Give dysgenic groups [people with 'bad genes'] in our population their choice of segregation or [compulsory] sterilization."

Margaret Sanger, April 1932 Birth Control Review.


"As we celebrate the 100th birthday of Margaret Sanger, our outrageous and our courageous leader, we will probably find a number of areas in which we may find more about Margaret Sanger than we thought we wanted to know..."

Faye Wattleton, Past-president of Planned Parenthood


Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, proposed the American Baby Code that states, "No woman shall have the legal right to bear a child… without a permit for parenthood".


Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood, proposed the Population Congress with the aim, "...to give certain dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization."

Source: http://www.eadshome.com/MargaretSanger.htm

Any questions?

Billastro



[Edited on 6/12/2008 by Billastro]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 04:50 PM
What's your point? Is she somehow associated with Obama?

 

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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 04:59 PM
quote:
What's your point? Is she somehow associated with Obama?
Usually your responses are a little more relevant to the point. Rough day? (BTW, I've noticed that when people don't have an articulate argument to offer, they slip into sarcasm and personal digs. Thanks for helping me prove an auxiliary point )

In reality, I suspect she'd have favored his family line being aborted out of existence a couple of generations ago. If you reread her statements you'll notice that she had a strong antipathy toward Black people: "...exterminate the Negro population" is a pretty clear indication of her basic sentiments. She was a capable enough writer that she could express them in a variety of ways, but her ideas of bad genes, stock, etc. make it pretty clear whom she had in mind.

My point (which I'd hoped I would't have to explain) is that the foundation of Planned Parenthood, and the abortion industry in America, rests on the beliefs and goals of a blatant racist.

Any more questions?

Billastro

 

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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 05:06 PM
I guess I'll keep this in mind if I need an abortion.

How is this relevant? I guess if you think they are doing the devil's work anyway, this is just more proof. Do you think this is a good reason to start shutting them down?

 

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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 05:20 PM
quote:
I guess I'll keep this in mind if I need an abortion.

How is this relevant? I guess if you think they are doing the devil's work anyway, this is just more proof. Do you think this is a good reason to start shutting them down?


I don't see your problem. This forum is for a wide range of topics, including the controversial. The last I heard, there are no restrictions on what may be posted here (although I bet a pro-pedophelia thread would be shut down pretty fast).

Generally, "Got a point you want to make ... and remake endlessly? Tie it here to the Whipping Post and leave other Forums be." means what it says. If I want to start a thread on what a delicacy haggis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggis) is, or why fresh boogers taste even better (honestly, people like you bring out the whimsey in me ) than freeze-dried, I believe I have the right to do so. Of course, I probably won't get many responses, but I can live with that. (And no, I don't eat boogers or haggis. Notice how I cleverly closed off a possible cheap shot? Dang, I'm good!)

You've probably noticed that you and I differ on a lot of issues. That's called diversity and is an aspect of American life that goes back to before either of us was born. You might as well accept it, because it's not going away.

While Congress has no control over this forum, I still maintain that freedom of speech is a relevent here as anywhere. Look it up (First Amendment, Constitution of the United States. It's everywhere).

I use this venue sometimes to express my opinions, which equal my thoughts. You remind me of the many (but not all) liberals I encounter, whether personally or in various media, who show a disturbing tendency to quash divergent opinions. The left seems a lot more censorious of disagreements than the right.

Here's a radical solution: if you see me as an author, maybe just tell yourself "Billastro's on another line I won't agree with. Wonder what's in the other threads".

To quote Squatch, "Sheesh!"

Billastro

 

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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 05:24 PM
quote:
It's hard to say whether or not her beliefs carried this far forward into the corporate culture of today's Planned Parenthood. Given all of her quotes were from almost 90 years ago, I would guess not.
I don't have the time to explore this right now (I leave work in 5 minutes, and have other things to do at home), but I'm pretty sure I can readily cite sources that verify my claim that abortion rates are much higher among Blacks (10% of the population, in some areas 60%+ of the abortions) and that Planned Parenthood has a disproportionate number of clinics in cities with high percentages of Blacks in their populations. Stay tuned, but probably not till much later.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 05:29 PM
Your post said, "Any questions?"

I asked a few, but apparently that isn't what you wanted. Did you only want people who might agree with you to respond to your post? I think you way over-reacted to my replies. I thought you wanted a dialogue, but I guess you just wanted to post something someone said 90 years ago. How much fin would this forum be if I didn't open threads from people I always agree with?

Looks to me like you wanted to provoke a response, and now you're acting injured because you got one. Maybe I should just pass on by your threads.

 

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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 06:52 PM
quote:
Your post said, "Any questions?"

I asked a few, but apparently that isn't what you wanted. Did you only want people who might agree with you to respond to your post? I think you way over-reacted to my replies. I thought you wanted a dialogue, but I guess you just wanted to post something someone said 90 years ago. How much fin would this forum be if I didn't open threads from people I always agree with?

Looks to me like you wanted to provoke a response, and now you're acting injured because you got one. Maybe I should just pass on by your threads.


It wasn't just to provoke a response. It sounded as if your questions were dodging the issue. My point was that the foundation of PP was racist; I didn't understand your reference to Obama. That's all.

I have no objections to objections, but if I don't catch the relevance, I might probe. And sometimes, my whimsy does factor in.

Billastro

Billastro

 

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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 06:52 PM
I do have to agree with "unlimited sexual gratification without the burden of children", but birth controll, including the morning after pill, is a better soultion to all the problems (poor people having numerous children undeniably keeps them locked in poverty) than abortion.

[Edited on 6/13/2008 by lespaul58]

[Edited on 6/13/2008 by lespaul58]

 

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  posted on 6/12/2008 at 07:13 PM
Well eugenics was a concept advocated by many people, Sanger certainly did not think this stuff up on her own but did seem to buy in to it and it would be the blight on her reputation. Her mother had eighteen pregnancies where only 11 children survived, so you might see where she could have been a little twisted on this issue.

A little eugenics history:


Eugenics is a social philosophy which advocates the improvement of human hereditary traits through various forms of intervention. Throughout history, eugenics has been regarded by its various advocates as a social responsibility, an altruistic stance of a society, meant to create healthier and more intelligent people, to save resources, and lessen human suffering.
Earlier proposed means of achieving these goals focused on selective breeding, while modern ones focus on prenatal testing and screening, genetic counseling, birth control, in vitro fertilization, and genetic engineering. Opponents argue that eugenics is immoral. Historically, a minority of eugenics advocates have used it as a justification for state-sponsored discrimination, forced sterilization of persons deemed genetically defective, and the killing of institutionalized populations. Eugenics was also used to rationalize certain aspects of the Holocaust. The modern field and term were first formulated by Sir Francis Galton in 1883, drawing on the recent work of his cousin Charles Darwin.

Since the postwar period, both the public and the scientific communities have associated eugenics with Nazi abuses, such as enforced racial hygiene, human experimentation, and the extermination of undesired population groups. However, developments in genetic, genomic, and reproductive technologies at the end of the 20th century have raised many new questions and concerns about what exactly constitutes the meaning of eugenics and what its ethical and moral status is in the modern era.

Now we could very well paint this as a blight on the women's movement, but while trolling the bottom it appears that quite a lot of the biggest capitalist bought into and threw quite a bit money behind eugenics.

From its inception eugenics was supported by prominent people, including H.G. Wells, Emile Zola, George Bernard Shaw, John Maynard Keynes, William Keith Kellogg and Margaret Sanger. G. K. Chesterton was an early critic of the philosophy of eugenics, expressing this opinion in his book, Eugenics and Other Evils. Eugenics became an academic discipline at many colleges and universities. Funding was provided by prestigious sources such as the Rockefeller Foundation, the Kellogg Foundation, the Carnegie Institution of Washington, and the Harriman family . Three International Eugenics Conferences presented a global venue for eugenicists with meetings in 1912 in London, and in 1921 and 1932 in New York. Eugenics' scientific reputation started to tumble in the 1930s, a time when Ernst Rüdin began incorporating eugenic rhetoric into the racial policies of Nazi Germany.

Exactly what other family was associated with the Harriman's?


[Edited on 6/13/2008 by PattyG]

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 10:03 AM
Here are a couple of websites showing that Sanger's views still prevail:

http://blackgenocide.org/home.html

http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/

"What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9)

Billastro

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 10:17 AM
quote:
quote:
Your post said, "Any questions?"

I asked a few, but apparently that isn't what you wanted. Did you only want people who might agree with you to respond to your post? I think you way over-reacted to my replies. I thought you wanted a dialogue, but I guess you just wanted to post something someone said 90 years ago. How much fin would this forum be if I didn't open threads from people I always agree with?

Looks to me like you wanted to provoke a response, and now you're acting injured because you got one. Maybe I should just pass on by your threads.


It wasn't just to provoke a response. It sounded as if your questions were dodging the issue. My point was that the foundation of PP was racist; I didn't understand your reference to Obama. That's all.

I have no objections to objections, but if I don't catch the relevance, I might probe. And sometimes, my whimsy does factor in.

Billastro

Billastro


I'm not sure it matters whether the founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist or not. I don't think the work they do is based on racism. I assumed this was an attempt to show how a group that provides abortions can't be "right," and must be "wrong."

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 10:33 AM
Are there any quotes available that support the contention that PP is racist, from....I don't know, this century?

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 10:44 AM
quote:
I'm not sure it matters whether the founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist or not. I don't think the work they do is based on racism. I assumed this was an attempt to show how a group that provides abortions can't be "right," and must be "wrong."


I think it's a significant factor, especially since the links I provided show what's going on now.

I think that abortion is absolutely wrong, unless the mother's physical health is threatened. No exceptions.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 10:45 AM
quote:
Are there any quotes available that support the contention that PP is racist, from....I don't know, this century?
Yup. Check the links I posted. They're recent.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 10:53 AM
Has anyone bothered to check and see if these were actually her comments and in what context they were made? No? Color me surprised.

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 10:54 AM
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure it matters whether the founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist or not. I don't think the work they do is based on racism. I assumed this was an attempt to show how a group that provides abortions can't be "right," and must be "wrong."


I think it's a significant factor, especially since the links I provided show what's going on now.

I think that abortion is absolutely wrong, unless the mother's physical health is threatened. No exceptions.

Billastro


Now we're getting somewhere. I know you are against abortion, and I knew what you were driving at with this post.

I've always wondered how someone who does not have a uterous, who has never been pregnant, and will never be, who has never had to make such a hard choice, and who never will, is so concerned about the issue. I'm not talking about you, but men in general, who declare that "Abortion is wrong."

I think we men are being mighty presumptious when we think we can tell women what to do with their bodies. Or decide what is right or wrong for them.

So is this more evidence that abortion is wrong? Or is it just something negative about a group whose activity you disagree with, so you think you should post it?

BTW, you didn't offer any commentary with your first post. You listed a bunch of "quotes," then asked, "Any questions?"

I really would like to know why some men think it is any of their business what a woman does with her body. Unless they are the father of the baby, it seems like it would be "none of their business." Can you imagine being a 19-year-old woman, for instance, with no support group, very little income, no real prospects for the future, finding yourself pregnant, knowing you are in no position to be a good mother, and having some man you've never met telling you it is "WRONG" for you to stop the process that is taking place in your body?

Who apointed you God?

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 11:16 AM
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure it matters whether the founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist or not. I don't think the work they do is based on racism. I assumed this was an attempt to show how a group that provides abortions can't be "right," and must be "wrong."


I think it's a significant factor, especially since the links I provided show what's going on now.

I think that abortion is absolutely wrong, unless the mother's physical health is threatened. No exceptions.

Billastro


Even if rape? Incest? Early teen pregnancy? She still has to go through with it? Really?

Wow.

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 11:33 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I'm not sure it matters whether the founder of Planned Parenthood was a racist or not. I don't think the work they do is based on racism. I assumed this was an attempt to show how a group that provides abortions can't be "right," and must be "wrong."


I think it's a significant factor, especially since the links I provided show what's going on now.

I think that abortion is absolutely wrong, unless the mother's physical health is threatened. No exceptions.

Billastro


Now we're getting somewhere. I know you are against abortion, and I knew what you were driving at with this post.

I've always wondered how someone who does not have a uterous, who has never been pregnant, and will never be, who has never had to make such a hard choice, and who never will, is so concerned about the issue. I'm not talking about you, but men in general, who declare that "Abortion is wrong."

I think we men are being mighty presumptious when we think we can tell women what to do with their bodies. Or decide what is right or wrong for them.

So is this more evidence that abortion is wrong? Or is it just something negative about a group whose activity you disagree with, so you think you should post it?

BTW, you didn't offer any commentary with your first post. You listed a bunch of "quotes," then asked, "Any questions?"

I really would like to know why some men think it is any of their business what a woman does with her body. Unless they are the father of the baby, it seems like it would be "none of their business." Can you imagine being a 19-year-old woman, for instance, with no support group, very little income, no real prospects for the future, finding yourself pregnant, knowing you are in no position to be a good mother, and having some man you've never met telling you it is "WRONG" for you to stop the process that is taking place in your body?

Who apointed you God?



I don't agree with you, Allen. I think a man has every right to form an opinion of abortion. It takes a man and a woman to make a baby, and the man has financial and moral obligations to that baby both before and after it is born. To say I can't have an opinion because I'm not a woman is like saying I can't have an opinion on black people and their problems because I am white.

And besides that, nowhere in your argument do you consider the rights of the fetus. Do you think the fetus has any rights?


I think if a man is the father of the child, then he should have some input into the decision, but it is the woman's decision in the end. Of course we all have the right to have any opinion we want, but there are alot of men who would have the state force women to have children they don't want, because they think it is "right."

No, I don't think fetuses have any "rights."

I believe it could well be part of a woman's life path to get pregnant and have an abortion, and that be the end of it. I believe that fetus was never meant to be a person, and no soul planned to live a lifetime in that body. It was strictly for the personal growth of the adults involved.

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 11:39 AM
quote:
quote:
Are there any quotes available that support the contention that PP is racist, from....I don't know, this century?
Yup. Check the links I posted. They're recent.

Billastro
Klannedparenthood and Blackgenocide? First off, I can't accesss those at work. Second, I have a sneaking suspicion that they won't be altogether objective, but I'll check them out when I get home.

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 11:44 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Are there any quotes available that support the contention that PP is racist, from....I don't know, this century?
Yup. Check the links I posted. They're recent.

Billastro
Klannedparenthood and Blackgenocide? First off, I can't accesss those at work. Second, I have a sneaking suspicion that they won't be altogether objective, but I'll check them out when I get home.


LOL...when I saw the addresses of those sites, I knew they'd be good places to get objective opinions.

And since I'm on a slow dial-up, I didn't waste my time.

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 12:14 PM
quote:

I've always wondered how someone who does not have a uterous, who has never been pregnant, and will never be, who has never had to make such a hard choice, and who never will, is so concerned about the issue. I'm not talking about you, but men in general, who declare that "Abortion is wrong."



I completely agree!!!

I didn't go the the site listed, but I've seen plenty of PP's in upper/middleclass white neighborhoods also. And providing safe abortions is not the only thing they do, they provide education, birth control, and other services.

 

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  posted on 6/13/2008 at 12:19 PM
quote:
Now we're getting somewhere. I know you are against abortion, and I knew what you were driving at with this post.

I've always wondered how someone who does not have a uterous, who has never been pregnant, and will never be, who has never had to make such a hard choice, and who never will, is so concerned about the issue. I'm not talking about you, but men in general, who declare that "Abortion is wrong."

I think we men are being mighty presumptious when we think we can tell women what to do with their bodies. Or decide what is right or wrong for them.

So is this more evidence that abortion is wrong? Or is it just something negative about a group whose activity you disagree with, so you think you should post it?
Both. I think abortion is wrong, and I think it's reprehensible that PP maintains such a positive image for the most part, while still aborting many more Black babies than White.
quote:
I really would like to know why some men think it is any of their business what a oman does with her body. Unless they are the father of the baby, it seems like it would be "none of their business." Can you imagine being a 19-year-old woman, for instance, with no support group, very little income, no real prospects for the future, finding yourself pregnant, knowing you are in no position to be a good mother, and having some man you've never met telling you it is "WRONG" for you to stop the process that is taking place in your body?
Why did she "find herself pregnant"? If it was via rape, I could understand, sort of. I wouldn't think it's right, but I think I'd understand. But if she became pregnant due to carelessness, I think she should be the one to bear the consequences, not the baby who happens to be in the wrong womb at the wrong time.

For example, the July 18, 2004 issue of The New York Times Magazine has an article, "When One Is Enough". The abstract reads, "Amy Richards describes her unhappiness upon learning that she is pregnant with triplets and her decision to have selection reduction, a process by which two fetuses are given a shot in the heart with potassium chloride. Richards says she had a boy and everything is fine."

If the process inside the woman's body involved only her life, it would be one thing: treating an illness, attacking a cancer, cutting out a tumor (benign or malignant) has no moral aspect. But I think and insist that the baby growing inside her is a separate human life from the moment of conception, and I think abortion is murder.

If it's really about the woman being able to do whatever she wants with her body, then by this reasoning she may also punch someone with her fist (part of her body), use her body to rob a store, and so on. The logic is nonexistent.

The child isn't part of the woman's body. It has a different genetic makeup, often a different blood (or other tissue) type, and 50% of the time, a different sex.

I think a lot of things are wrong, even though I'll never be involved. Libel, murder, theft, and so on. I still think -- and will say -- that they're wrong. I've never libeled or murdered anyone (although Jesus made some interesting points about these). While I've stolen in the past (and I'm ashamed to say I did), it's in the past.
quote:
I think if a man is the father of the child, then he should have some input into the decision, but it is the woman's decision in the end. Of course we all have the right to have any opinion we want, but there are alot of men who would have the state force women to have children they don't want, because they think it is "right."

How far do you want to extend this? Consider the recent case in Austria that revealed a father who raised his children for the purposes of incest, confining them to their house for decades (I can't find a citation, but it was within the last couple of months).

Since I don't know him or the family, is it presumptuous for me to consider this wrong? Is intergenerational incest simply a matter of preference?

Keep in mind I'm just extrapolating from positions you've already taken.
quote:
No, I don't think fetuses have any "rights."
I insist that they do because I think that they are people who haven't been born, fully human, having the rights that the rest of us air-breathers (as opposed to those still in the amniotic fluid).
quote:
I believe it could well be part of a woman's life path to get pregnant and have an abortion, and that be the end of it. I believe that fetus was never meant to be a person, and no soul planned to live a lifetime in that body. It was strictly for the personal growth of the adults involved.
I think this is so disturbingly amoral that I'm at a loss to respond. What do you think about killing the baby after it's born? How long a time span should be allowed? What if you think a woman should have a child until it's 5 years old, then snuff it? Is there a moral basis for your thoughts, or is it just how it seems to you? Talk about cold blooded...

I know every life has a purpose. "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11). Whether you agree with me or not makes no difference to me.
quote:
Who apointed you God?
Why did you add this smart-a$$ question at the end? Up till this point I assumed you could thoughtfully (although misguidedly, IMHO) express your thoughts. Then this. And you accuse me of overreacting.

Nobody appointed me God. However, I have plenty of reason, derived from the Bible, that abortion is wrong according to God's standards.

Why attack the messenger instead of the message? It's a weak way to try to make a point.

Billastro

 

____________________
Canis Major: The Original Skydog



https://www.davidmalin.com/fujii/source/CMa.html



"I can't say as ever I was lost, but I was bewildered once for three days."



—Daniel Boone

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/13/2008 at 12:33 PM
quote:
quote:
Now we're getting somewhere. I know you are against abortion, and I knew what you were driving at with this post.

I've always wondered how someone who does not have a uterous, who has never been pregnant, and will never be, who has never had to make such a hard choice, and who never will, is so concerned about the issue. I'm not talking about you, but men in general, who declare that "Abortion is wrong."

I think we men are being mighty presumptious when we think we can tell women what to do with their bodies. Or decide what is right or wrong for them.


So is this more evidence that abortion is wrong? Or is it just something negative about a group whose activity you disagree with, so you think you should post it?
Both. I think abortion is wrong, and I think it's reprehensible that PP maintains such a positive image for the most part, while still aborting many more Black babies than White.
quote:
I really would like to know why some men think it is any of their business what a oman does with her body. Unless they are the father of the baby, it seems like it would be "none of their business." Can you imagine being a 19-year-old woman, for instance, with no support group, very little income, no real prospects for the future, finding yourself pregnant, knowing you are in no position to be a good mother, and having some man you've never met telling you it is "WRONG" for you to stop the process that is taking place in your body?
Why did she "find herself pregnant"? If it was via rape, I could understand, sort of. I wouldn't think it's right, but I think I'd understand. But if she became pregnant due to carelessness, I think she should be the one to bear the consequences, not the baby who happens to be in the wrong womb at the wrong time.

For example, the July 18, 2004 issue of The New York Times Magazine has an article, "When One Is Enough". The abstract reads, "Amy Richards describes her unhappiness upon learning that she is pregnant with triplets and her decision to have selection reduction, a process by which two fetuses are given a shot in the heart with potassium chloride. Richards says she had a boy and everything is fine."

If the process inside the woman's body involved only her life, it would be one thing: treating an illness, attacking a cancer, cutting out a tumor (benign or malignant) has no moral aspect. But I think and insist that the baby growing inside her is a separate human life from the moment of conception, and I think abortion is murder.

If it's really about the woman being able to do whatever she wants with her body, then by this reasoning she may also punch someone with her fist (part of her body), use her body to rob a store, and so on. The logic is nonexistent.

The child isn't part of the woman's body. It has a different genetic makeup, often a different blood (or other tissue) type, and 50% of the time, a different sex.

I think a lot of things are wrong, even though I'll never be involved. Libel, murder, theft, and so on. I still think -- and will say -- that they're wrong. I've never libeled or murdered anyone (although Jesus made some interesting points about these). While I've stolen in the past (and I'm ashamed to say I did), it's in the past.
quote:
I think if a man is the father of the child, then he should have some input into the decision, but it is the woman's decision in the end. Of course we all have the right to have any opinion we want, but there are alot of men who would have the state force women to have children they don't want, because they think it is "right."

How far do you want to extend this? Consider the recent case in Austria that revealed a father who raised his children for the purposes of incest, confining them to their house for decades (I can't find a citation, but it was within the last couple of months).

Since I don't know him or the family, is it presumptuous for me to consider this wrong? Is intergenerational incest simply a matter of preference?

Keep in mind I'm just extrapolating from positions you've already taken.
quote:
No, I don't think fetuses have any "rights."
I insist that they do because I think that they are people who haven't been born, fully human, having the rights that the rest of us air-breathers (as opposed to those still in the amniotic fluid).
quote:
I believe it could well be part of a woman's life path to get pregnant and have an abortion, and that be the end of it. I believe that fetus was never meant to be a person, and no soul planned to live a lifetime in that body. It was strictly for the personal growth of the adults involved.
I think this is so disturbingly amoral that I'm at a loss to respond. What do you think about killing the baby after it's born? How long a time span should be allowed? What if you think a woman should have a child until it's 5 years old, then snuff it? Is there a moral basis for your thoughts, or is it just how it seems to you? Talk about cold blooded...

I know every life has a purpose. "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11). Whether you agree with me or not makes no difference to me.
quote:
Who apointed you God?
Why did you add this smart-a$$ question at the end? Up till this point I assumed you could thoughtfully (although misguidedly, IMHO) express your thoughts. Then this. And you accuse me of overreacting.

Nobody appointed me God. However, I have plenty of reason, derived from the Bible, that abortion is wrong according to God's standards.

Why attack the messenger instead of the message? It's a weak way to try to make a point.

Billastro


Calm down, Bill. I asked a rhetorical question. I'm not attacking you, as much as the notion that a man has the right to tell a woman what to do with her body.

You believe that God wrote the Bible, so the words there reflect God's views. I disagree, and don't use a book written thousands of years ago as a basis for my beliefs. That doesn't make them any less valid, because I don't have a "book." Your beliefs about abortion are based on your belief that God wrote the Bible.

I don't see my belief to be "cold-blooded," any more than your belief that any woman who becomes pregnant should be forced to have the child is.

Just cuirous. Do you think the woman who was held captive and impregnated by her father in Austria should have had the right to abort those pregnancies?




[Edited on 6/13/2008 by SantaCruzBluz]

 

____________________


 

Universal Peach



Karma:
Posts: 6968
(6968 all sites)
Registered: 6/18/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 6/13/2008 at 02:51 PM
I'm thinking a lot has changed in 90 fricken years.

 

____________________
Hey Yankees, you can take your crappy trophy's and shove them right up your asses!

 
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