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Author: Subject: Define Rock and Roll

Zen Peach





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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 08:53 PM
A discussion in a different topic led to the realization that we don't really know how to define what popular music is and is not rock. Feel free to leave your definition here.

Doug

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 09:03 PM
rock and roll is a bunch of friends setting up equipment in a garage and playing. In my entire life, more than 3/4 of it playin in bands... I never heard anything sounding like Madonna or disco coming from a garage unless it was froma stereo. I rest my case

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 09:43 PM
Keith Richards.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 09:46 PM
quote:
rock and roll is a bunch of friends setting up equipment in a garage and playing. In my entire life, more than 3/4 of it playin in bands... I never heard anything sounding like Madonna or disco coming from a garage unless it was froma stereo. I rest my case


Yet there are all sorts of musicians who make money playing in that style. Many of them were the same guys playing in those garages.

Madonna only hires top notch players. And she can afford them.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 09:51 PM
quote:
Yet there are all sorts of musicians who make money playing in that style. Many of them were the same guys playing in those garages.


very very true my friend but ask them if the garage was "rock n roll" or what they do for a living ? I have alot of friends who are wonderful musicians and do not play rock and roll at all.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 09:54 PM
A few I found.

"Popular music form incorporating the music styles of rhythm and blues, gospel and country music."

"Rock and Roll is a type of music that emerged as a defined musical style in the Southern United States in the 1950s. It now has two distinct meanings, either traditional rock and roll in the 1950s style, or later rock and even pop music which may be very far from traditional rock and roll."

"rock 'n' roll: a genre of popular music originating in the 1950s; a blend of Black rhythm-and-blues with White country-and-western; "rock is a generic term for the range of styles that evolved out of rock'n'roll."

"A form of popular music arising from and incorporating a variety of musical styles, especially rhythm and blues, country music, and gospel. Originating in the United States in the 1950s, it is characterized by electronically amplified instrumentation, a heavily accented beat, and relatively simple phrase structure."

"Devil music"

Subgenres
Art rock - British rock - Christian rock - Classic Rock - Desert rock - Detroit rock - Experimental rock - Garage rock - Girl group - Glam rock - Glitter rock - Group Sounds - Hard rock - Heartland rock - Instrumental rock - Jam band - Jangle pop - Krautrock - Post-rock - Power pop - Protopunk - Psychedelia - Pub rock (Aussie) - Pub rock (UK) - Rock en espa˝ol - Soft rock - Southern rock - Surf
Fusion genres
Aboriginal rock - Afro-rock - Anatolian rock - Blues-rock - Boogaloo - Country rock - Cumbia rock - Flamenco-rock - Folk rock - Indo-rock - Jazz rock - Madchester - Merseybeat - Progressive rock - Punta rock - Raga rock - Ra´ rock - Rockabilly - Rockoson - Samba-rock - Space rock - Tango-rockÚro





 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 10:07 PM
Define rock and roll?2 words,Led Zepplin.
 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 10:18 PM
quote:
quote:
Yet there are all sorts of musicians who make money playing in that style. Many of them were the same guys playing in those garages.


very very true my friend but ask them if the garage was "rock n roll" or what they do for a living ? I have alot of friends who are wonderful musicians and do not play rock and roll at all.


Also many rockers playing other styles to actually make some money.

The guy in the wedding band used to aspire to being the next Jimi Hendrix. He just cut his hair and turned down.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 10:25 PM


Nuff said

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 10:29 PM
quote:
A discussion in a different topic led to the realization that we don't really know how to define what popular music is and is not rock. Feel free to leave your definition here.

Doug


rock and roll has soul. i think your reference is to the previous hall of fame topic. most of the music of the present class of HOF nominees such as madonna and the beastie boys has no soul.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 10:37 PM
quote:
quote:
A discussion in a different topic led to the realization that we don't really know how to define what popular music is and is not rock. Feel free to leave your definition here.

Doug


rock and roll has soul. i think your reference is to the previous hall of fame topic. most of the music of the present class of HOF nominees such as madonna and the beastie boys has no soul.


Those artists and their fans would disagree and many would likely think that the ABB are a bunch of guys practising scales in drawn out jams. It is all subjective to taste. And until someone invents a soul meter than it is all really opinion.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 10:49 PM
Hard to define, but to paraphrase the definition of obscenity - I know it when I hear it. Maybe it's easier to define for me based on what I would consider artists on the "fringe" between rock and something else.

Marshall Tucker. Anything more country than this isn't R&R, it's country.
Blondie - borderline punk/dance
Much Dylan - fringe on many levels, but sometimes R&R. Tangled Up in Blue is, Blowing in the Wind isn't.
Born to Run is rock and roll, the Seeger Sessions are not, at least not always.
Aqualung is rock and roll, Songs from the Wood not so much (the songs not albums).
Captain Jack is, Honesty not.
CSN(Y) - Carry On, sure, Teach Your Children, not R&R to me.
Midnight Rider by The ABB is, by Gregg solo, uh uh.

Could you go so far as to say the term "Rock Ballad" is an oxymoron?

What about bands like Emerson Lake and Palmer and Yes? Does the fact that they use traditional rock instruments, and get airplay on rock stations make them rock bands? Does calling them progressive rock, or art rock or whatever genre we want to apply put them in the same category as Led Zeppelin? While I love both, to me, most of their music is not rock and roll.

These are just my opinion, and as they say, opinions vary. But, to say something is not rock and roll, is not, at least to me, negative. It just means it's a different genre and that is just fine.

Greg

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 10:57 PM
Just as rock 'n roll was inspired by and evolved from several different genres, it continues to do so. Rock music is not just two guitars, a bass and drum kit. Bill Haley and Louis Jordan didn't say one day, "I'm going to make a rock 'n roll record," it was the intersection of all kinds of popular music, country, blues, big band, jazz, gospel, you name it. If it still has a hint of any of those, it's rock 'n roll.

Besides, rock n roll is about attitude and energy more than anything. It's sexy, it was something kids danced wildly to (that's the "roll" part). "Tutti Frutti" by Little Richard is rock 'n roll, it's something you could move to. Pat Boone's castrated version of "Tutti Fruitti" is a rock 'n roll song popularized, stripped of it's scandalous rhythm, so it seems more appropriate to call it 'pop music' today, but anyone back then wouldn't have. It still has energy Blues music, what a lot of the hard rock of the 70s was based on, wasn't as dance-able, but you could sure fock to it (that's where the "roll" parts comes in).

During the course of it's evolution, a very popular form of rock n roll was full of electric guitars, and many kids aspired to become one of them in their parents' garage, but Marvin Gaye never played a face-melting guitar solo, Diana Ross never left the stage for a 10-minute drum and bass solo, and Fats Domino never put a violin to his piano strings, but they're still as rock 'n roll as anything. Anyone that leaves them out of a rock music history isn't telling the whole story.

In fact, between 1959 and 1963 there really wasn't a lot of guitar-based rock music, so does that mean rock was dead for a period by definitions I'm hearing? The soundtrack to Stand By Me and The Big Chill had hardly any wailing guitar solos or in some cases, guitars at all (that's a xialaphone on Buddy Holly's "Everyday" and he's inspired just as many rock artists as anyone from that period - but are those soundtracks not rock n' roll music? Same goes for a good portion of music in the 80s, but compare Madonna and Pink Floyd and tell me which one has more in common with Little Richard? With Tina Turner? With Janis? With Joan Jett? That's the evolution, right there. It changes. Your tastes might not have changed since you were in your parents' garage in 1970, but rock music certainly has. I certainly don't know where to draw the line.

[Edited on 10/4/2007 by porkchopbob]

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 11:11 PM
excellent reply bob. just as dixieland, bebop, swing, fusion and a whole slew of other styles fall under the larger umbrella of jazz music due to the evolution of the genre so too rock and roll.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 11:11 PM
porkchopbob

That sums it up rather well.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 11:13 PM
quote:
quote:
A discussion in a different topic led to the realization that we don't really know how to define what popular music is and is not rock. Feel free to leave your definition here.

Doug


rock and roll has soul. i think your reference is to the previous hall of fame topic. most of the music of the present class of HOF nominees such as madonna and the beastie boys has no soul.


"Don't try to get me to a disco. You'll never even get me out on the floor. In ten minutes I'll head straight for the door. Just try that old time rock and roll. Today's music don't have the same soul. Just give me old time rock and roll."


I agree. Soul is something that SHOULD define Rock and Roll. Soul, passion, joy. The problem with much modern music is that it is synthetic. And perhaps that is another definition, whatever the talent level, rock is real, not synthetic.

Doug

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 11:16 PM
quote:
Hard to define, but to paraphrase the definition of obscenity - I know it when I hear it. Maybe it's easier to define for me based on what I would consider artists on the "fringe" between rock and something else.

Marshall Tucker. Anything more country than this isn't R&R, it's country.
Blondie - borderline punk/dance
Much Dylan - fringe on many levels, but sometimes R&R. Tangled Up in Blue is, Blowing in the Wind isn't.
Born to Run is rock and roll, the Seeger Sessions are not, at least not always.
Aqualung is rock and roll, Songs from the Wood not so much (the songs not albums).
Captain Jack is, Honesty not.
CSN(Y) - Carry On, sure, Teach Your Children, not R&R to me.
Midnight Rider by The ABB is, by Gregg solo, uh uh.

Could you go so far as to say the term "Rock Ballad" is an oxymoron?

What about bands like Emerson Lake and Palmer and Yes? Does the fact that they use traditional rock instruments, and get airplay on rock stations make them rock bands? Does calling them progressive rock, or art rock or whatever genre we want to apply put them in the same category as Led Zeppelin? While I love both, to me, most of their music is not rock and roll.

These are just my opinion, and as they say, opinions vary. But, to say something is not rock and roll, is not, at least to me, negative. It just means it's a different genre and that is just fine.

Greg


I once read something about the Beatles that said that they so came to define Rock music that everything they did is to be considered rock because they define what rock is. So Yesterday is rock by that definition. I would argue that everything Dylan has done from Bringing it All Back Home,onward must be considered rock. Same with Jethro Tull. Songs from the Wood IS Rock. When Warren Haynes gets up there solo and sings The Real Thing, that too is rock.

Doug

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 11:18 PM
quote:
Just as rock 'n roll was inspired by and evolved from several different genres, it continues to do so. Rock music is not just two guitars, a bass and drum kit. Bill Haley and Louis Jordan didn't say one day, "I'm going to make a rock 'n roll record," it was the intersection of all kinds of popular music, country, blues, big band, jazz, gospel, you name it. If it still has a hint of any of those, it's rock 'n roll.

Besides, rock n roll is about attitude and energy more than anything. It's sexy, it was something kids danced wildly to (that's the "roll" part). "Tutti Frutti" by Little Richard is rock 'n roll, it's something you could move to. Pat Boone's castrated version of "Tutti Fruitti" is a rock 'n roll song popularized, stripped of it's scandalous rhythm, so it seems more appropriate to call it 'pop music' today, but anyone back then wouldn't have. It still has energy Blues music, what a lot of the hard rock of the 70s was based on, wasn't as dance-able, but you could sure fock to it (that's where the "roll" parts comes in).

During the course of it's evolution, a very popular form of rock n roll was full of electric guitars, and many kids aspired to become one of them in their parents' garage, but Marvin Gaye never played a face-melting guitar solo, Diana Ross never left the stage for a 10-minute drum and bass solo, and Fats Domino never put a violin to his piano strings, but they're still as rock 'n roll as anything. Anyone that leaves them out of a rock music history isn't telling the whole story.

In fact, between 1959 and 1963 there really wasn't a lot of guitar-based rock music, so does that mean rock was dead for a period by definitions I'm hearing? The soundtrack to Stand By Me and The Big Chill had hardly any wailing guitar solos or in some cases, guitars at all (that's a xialaphone on Buddy Holly's "Everyday" and he's inspired just as many rock artists as anyone from that period - but are those soundtracks not rock n' roll music? Same goes for a good portion of music in the 80s, but compare Madonna and Pink Floyd and tell me which one has more in common with Little Richard? With Tina Turner? With Janis? With Joan Jett? That's the evolution, right there. It changes. Your tastes might not have changed since you were in your parents' garage in 1970, but rock music certainly has. I certainly don't know where to draw the line.

[Edited on 10/4/2007 by porkchopbob]


Actually, the original sound of Rock and Roll, as defined by the likes of Elvis, Buddy Holly, Little Richard Chuck Berry etc. was considered dead after 1958 and no one expected it to return. Except for the Beach Boys, real high energy Rock and Roll was gone in this country until the Beatles brought it back. After that it branched out, morphed and eventually encompassed much of popular music. Though guitar based rock has ebbed and flowed, it has never died out again.

Doug

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 11:42 PM
quote:
Hard to define, but to paraphrase the definition of obscenity - I know it when I hear it. Maybe it's easier to define for me based on what I would consider artists on the "fringe" between rock and something else.


Sorry, but I'm going to pick on you here and be devil's advocate to your examples, nothing personal, Greg.

I never liked this famous definition of obscenity, far too subjective, however, when the law uses it for obscenity the court is meant to base decisions what the general public would find offensive vs. acceptable. It also means that something obscene is plainly obvious, there is no such thing as "fringe" obscenity. It either is, or it isn't. Hardly a definition that applies to the "rock or not?" question. Each individual is far too subjective, even those that say "oh I listen to pretty much everything" really actually hate lots of stuff, so their opinion of music that is on the 'fringe' of something as broad and loosely defined as rock 'n roll will likely remain as such.

quote:
Blondie - borderline punk/dance

When did the myth that people don't dance to rock 'n roll start? People certainly weren't sitting down to "Yakety Yak."

The makers of Pete Best movie BACKBEAT began recreating The Beatles' performances in the cavern, they admittedly punked it up. It's not plainly evident at first, even as a huge Beatles fan it didn't really hit me until after I heard the film-maker say so. One just assumes that something as seminal as The Beatles' performances in the Cavern were insanely wild, however, when you compare Backbeats' music to the music The Beatles were actually playing in Hamburg, the difference is apparent - The Beatles music seems almost tame (or at least immediately identifiable as a young rock band) by comparison. Music evolved, as did audiences.

The first time I heard "Absolutely Sweet Marie" on the Bob Dylan 30th Anniversary album, I thought Joe Strummer was hitting that tune out of the park. It was George Harrison. The Beatles were the first punk band. 15 years from now they'll be making a Clash movie and have to juice it up. It's all rock 'n roll.

quote:
Much Dylan - fringe on many levels, but sometimes R&R. Tangled Up in Blue is, Blowing in the Wind isn't.

So softer, quieter material is out? What about most of Rubber Soul, largely inspired by Dylan? Were The Beatles only half a rock band? What about "Goin' to California" or "Battle of Evermore"? Is Led Zeppelin not rock? Someone else defined rock 'n roll as Led Zeppelin.

quote:
CSN(Y) - Carry On, sure, Teach Your Children, not R&R to me.

One of the seminal bands of the Woodstock-era isn't rock (not that it has to be)? Is The Band rock music at all? Their second album is a concept album of "old timey" tunes. Is "The Weight" a rock song? Is "The Weight" a rock song when the Allman Brothers play it?

quote:
Midnight Rider by The ABB is, by Gregg solo, uh uh.

The Allman Brothers' version is a borderline country song, complete with steel guitar-inspired solo from Duane and a western swing call and response. What actually makes it a rock song?

quote:
Could you go so far as to say the term "Rock Ballad" is an oxymoron?

What about bands like Emerson Lake and Palmer and Yes? Does the fact that they use traditional rock instruments, and get airplay on rock stations make them rock bands? Does calling them progressive rock, or art rock or whatever genre we want to apply put them in the same category as Led Zeppelin? While I love both, to me, most of their music is not rock and roll.


Couldn't it be a form of rock 'n roll? As mentioned, not everything Led Zeppelin released "rocked." "Down By the Seaside" is one of my favorite Zep tunes, but I couldn't easily categorize it. Well, unless I just called it rock 'n roll.

quote:
These are just my opinion, and as they say, opinions vary. But, to say something is not rock and roll, is not, at least to me, negative. It just means it's a different genre and that is just fine.

Greg


Fair enough, Greg. Again, I'm not trying to pick on you personally, just trying to challenge everyone's definition of "Rock 'n Roll." I totally understand your definition - there's folk, there's soul, there's country, there's blues, there's jazz, there's metal, there's punk, there's disco, there's grunge, there's folk, there's motown, and there's rock 'n roll. Totally respect that. Personally, I don't know what the formula is for placing a song in one column or the other. To me it's all rock 'n roll.

 

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  posted on 10/3/2007 at 11:52 PM
quote:
Actually, the original sound of Rock and Roll, as defined by the likes of Elvis, Buddy Holly, Little Richard Chuck Berry etc. was considered dead after 1958 and no one expected it to return. Except for the Beach Boys, real high energy Rock and Roll was gone in this country until the Beatles brought it back. After that it branched out, morphed and eventually encompassed much of popular music. Though guitar based rock has ebbed and flowed, it has never died out again.

Doug


True, Doug, and while music was a bit more tame than it had been before Jerry Lee married his cousin and Little Richard found God, there was still some high energy stuff out there - it just wasn't with guitars. The Beatles were almost as influenced by the groups of that time as they were by Chuck Berry and Buddy Holly - just listen to "Twist and Shout," "Please Mr. Postman," and "Anna" off of their first couple albums (not to mention, "Back in the USSR" and John's own "Stand By Me" years later). Does The Beatles' "You Really Got a Hold of Me" sound so much less like rock than their version of "Roll Over Beethoven"? Were they "rocking up" a song or were The Beatles not 100% rock 'n roll? Was rock music simply evolving?

Again, I don't know for sure, it's a thin line.

 

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  posted on 10/4/2007 at 12:00 AM
There are Beatle songs that only have string sections and non- rock instruments. Are they not R&R?

Not really a thin line. It is all R&R. Just variations on a musical theme. all of the lines were blurred long ago.

 

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  posted on 10/4/2007 at 12:13 AM
quote:
There are Beatle songs that only have string sections and non- rock instruments. Are they not R&R?

Not really a thin line. It is all R&R. Just variations on a musical theme. all of the lines were blurred long ago.


Totally agree, though I understand people that draw a line between genres and consider rock music a genre until itself amongst the punk, soul & motown - I just don't agree with it. If rock is a genre unto itself, is "hard rock" a separate genre, as well? Is it a sub-genre? I have a heard a lot of examples of what rock is not, not what it is.

I always thought that if I was going to show someone that knew nothing about rock 'n roll one example of it, that would be Chuck Berry. But in the late 1970s the bands that had the most in common with Chuck were The Ramones and Ted Nugent. That doesn't mean Blondie wasn't rock music, it just means that they drew from more influences than Ted did. Just because Ted Nugent sounded the most Chuck Berry-like doesn't mean that his sound was the only thing happening in rock music at the time - a lot happened between him and Chuck. If anything, Ted and The Ramones were revivalists. Rock was evolving alongside of them.

[Edited on 10/4/2007 by porkchopbob]

 

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  posted on 10/4/2007 at 12:44 AM
stickin it to the man.
 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/4/2007 at 05:58 AM
"Rock 'n Roll".. has evolved to the degree that it includes most popular music. It is a broad definition for the collective music of the last 6 Decades. Most bands can draw on some sort of rock 'n roll icon for it's influence, some bands will even include a true rock 'n roll tune on it's latest CD. Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Eddie Cochran & Buddy Holly are among some of the real Rock 'n Rollers. Inmo, It is only when a "Rock" band plays in that style, that they are playing Rock 'n Roll in the truest spirit of the words. That spirit usually means a 3 chord turn around performed at a constant up-tempo. It's funny, but right now the only true R&R tune played by the ABB that comes to mind is "Angeline"... Bla,bla,bla

My vote for "Define Rock 'n Roll"... The Rolling Stones

 

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  posted on 10/4/2007 at 06:15 AM
quote:
Keith Richards
You beat me to it but he did steal all of Chuck's licks!

 
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