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Author: Subject: LES DUDEK AND RAMBLIN MAN

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  posted on 3/14/2003 at 09:31 PM
HOW INVOLVED WITH ABB WAS LES DUDEK,WAS HE REALY THE KEY GUITARIST PLAYING JESSICA AND RAMBLIN MAN.
 
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  posted on 3/14/2003 at 09:35 PM
WWW.LESDUDEK.COM
 

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  posted on 3/14/2003 at 11:50 PM
Les took the first solo in Ramblin man and played the acoustic guitar on Jessica. He may have done the harmony guitar parts on both.

 

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  posted on 3/14/2003 at 11:55 PM
I didn't think Les played on Ramblin' Man... there are a lot of harmonies on the song, it's probably hard to know who played what. I know he co-wrote Jessica and plays the acoustic guitar/intro.

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 12:05 AM
Dickey said in an interview that Les is the one playing the harmony parts on "Ramblin' Man", I didn't think he did the solo. He also played acoustic on "Jessica". He was just a friend of theirs sitting in, from what I've heard them say!
 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 12:43 AM
My theory and I could be wrong (reason it is a theory) is that Ramblin was recorded without Les on the basic track. Sometime later he came with Dickey to the studio and added the layla like guitar layering. It would explain why ,if the record was mastered in the order it was recorded, the reason les missed a few tracks. also ,first I heard les co wrote Jessica ,a song he sounds out of tune on at first.

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 09:10 AM
The way the sentence was worded with the definitive statement ďI know he co-wrote . . .Ē is simply part of a general attempt to discredit Dickey Betts suggesting he did not write certain songs. This started with the Liz Reed issue and Butch Trucks wanting a writing credit. The only evidence for the Dudek role in writing Jessica comes from Les Dudek himself in a recent interview. One must consider here that Les and Dickey are still good friends and play golf together and so the lack of a writing credit and loss of substantial income did not lead to any hard feelings.

Compare this to Ry Cooderís statements over Honky Tonk Woman and you get an idea how embittered a writer can get if he is really ripped off. In Cooderís case he says the Stones stole his whole groove and there is recorded evidence for it from Jamminí with Edward.Ē Cooderís accusations of plagiarism are well known in the music community as are Levon Helmís that he wrote much of the Band material. Similarly the fact that Duane Allman made a substantial contribution to writing Layla even beyond the opening riff is well known. Even within the ABB it is known that Berry Oakley wrote the opening riff for Whipping Post. (Did Oakley get a writing credit?) The point being that the contested stuff is usually well known as somebody somewhere down the line says something.

It may just be me but I am suspicious of claims that arise 30 years after the fact. Les Dudek, as the post-Gregg lover of Cher and her band-mate in Black Rose in the late seventies, had ample opportunity to make his claim about Jessica public. And given his involvement with Cher the press including People magazine would have jumped on it. Surely there would have been pillow talk and Cher would have said something in her book where her and Paulette generally ridicule Dickey and Gregg. Les may have been there and played something but the level of itís significance will probably never be known. We do know that it was not a big enough deal to get pissed off about when it was a big hit.

Here the writer knows nothing as a fact. He is simply asserting an opinion in such a way that he hopes it be interpreted as a fact. It is a common rhetorical trick. As those of you who know me are aware I hate propaganda.

There is a picture of Les and Gregg Allman, both with guitars, on his site about the time Wasted Words would have been written. I wonder . . .


[Edited on 15/3/2003 by Pushka]

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 09:59 AM
If Les Dudek played the first solo on Ramblin' Man, he did a heck of Dickey imitation. I think he just did some of the guitar lines layered over Dickey at the end of the song. Dudek may have helped write Jessica; his claim is that he came up with a single line that helped Dickey out of an impasse. I'm a little suspicious of his claims, because I've heard and read things by him before that made him sound like something of a "shoot from the hip" sort.

The statements about writing credits by Butch and Levon Helm are a different matter. Each said in a different way that some of the songs we know were not presented in final form by the person credited as author, but rather developed by the band from an idea presented by that person. Dickey came with a couple of melody lines for IMOER, and the band developed a song from them. There's a legitimate debate about who should get how much credit, and what fraction of the royalties, for writing such a song, especially an instrumental. To me, it would be most fair for Dickey or Robbie Robertson to get the largest fraction of the royalty for a song for which he wrote the melody and/or lyrics, but for other band members to get a piece for the essential parts they added to the arrangements. Many songs by both bands would be unknown today but for the special chemistry of the particular group of people who worked out how to play them.

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 10:36 AM
quote:
The way the sentence was worded with the definitive statement “I know he co-wrote . . .” is simply part of a general attempt to discredit Dickey Betts suggesting he did not write certain songs.

Yip yip yip. Unless my memory is wrong, I think Kevin Freeman gives Dudek some credit for the song in Midnight Riders. I've seen this idea recycled in several places. Disagree with the words "I know?" Fine, whatever. I've heard several times that he worked on the song in some fashion. Midnight Riders pre-dates the whole Dickey saga and Dudek's claim to the song is unrelated to it in any manner that I can see.

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 10:53 AM
Bringing in fragments of a song and letting the band work it up seems to be the standard way of doing things in the rock industry as well as only giving credit to the person (s) who brought the original chords, melody or lyrics in. To be fair the entire ensemble should get some credit. I am sure Mick Taylor would be elated if the royalties from the time he was in the Stones were subjected to a new subdivision reflecting who contributed what. Robertson took advantage of the other members of the Band in ways besides the royalty split though.

The situation with Dickey Betts is different. It was probably Duane who made the decision about writing credits because as the interviews in the new HTN suggest neither Dickey nor Gregg made decisions about anything at the time, beyond what they contributed music wise. There could have been a Doors style arrangement where the credit went to the band but there wasnít. Still Dickey Betts not only took in Warren Haynes as a co-writer in the time they were in the band together but included Warren in all the interviews he did. I canít think of any other major guitar player in a major band who did (does) this. Itís just not done as usually ego overrides fairness. I think this says a lot about Dickeyís character.

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 11:11 AM
I think the Grateful Dead got it right - the writer gets credit and the band split the money. Any song ends up being a whole-band effort, regardless of how much or little the song is written by a particular individual.

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 11:32 AM
That is Scott Freeman. Dudek working on the song is different than writing it. You are starting to sound like George W. LOL. The way Freeman recounts it is Dickey developed the melody playing to the movement of his daughter Jessica as she crawled along the floor.
 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 11:38 AM
I didn't say he wrote it. I said he co-wrote it with Dickey, helped him write it, however you like to phrase it. That was what I meant by worked on it; we already know he plays on the Brothers and Sisters version. The story you're talking about is very famous, I know Freeman retells it and I'm pretty sure he says Dudek was involved in the writing as well.

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 09:50 PM
Freeman says nothing that even closely intimates that Dudek co-wrote Jessica. This is your imagination in overdrive. I donít know how many more jokers youíre going to try to pull from the same sock but it might make it more interesting if you got a little more creative and found another source to back this fairy tale you're spinning. Iím sitting here with a copy of the book. This is Dickey' reputation you're sullying. You don't seem to know a whole lot about anything but you post with such certainty. What's your point here?

[Edited on 16/3/2003 by Pushka]

 

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 11:02 PM
Interestingly, Marley, although many of the band members in the Allman Brothers and the Grateful Dead probably have/did have the same opinions on most important issues in the world, they operated quite differently.

The Allmans always operated with one person taking a substaintially controlling role, and the others following that lead. They are very capitalistic in that the person who, for lack of a better phrase, "makes the rain" and brings the original idea of a song forward gets the credit and the money.

The Grateful Dead were the exact opposite, a fluid and equal group, no individual taking more than another, and generally allowing input from a variety of individuals.

The interesting thing is, with Warren in the band, it is almost a perfect blend of each manner of existence, and now the band is as close as it could probably get to having the Allmans and the Dead playing on stage together each night, a thought many would dream of.

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  posted on 3/15/2003 at 11:28 PM
So jo jo you know exactly how the royalty split works with Warren now. Tell us about it?
 

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  posted on 3/16/2003 at 12:45 AM
Whoa whoa whoa there, Pushka. Let's cool this down a bit. First off, when you say I'm spinning fairy tales, you're making this a personal thing with me. I've never insulted you and I don't want to go there. Second, you say I'm sullying Dickey's reputation or trying to discredit him, like I've got it in for him somehow. None of those things are the case.
If it wasn't in Midnight Riders, fine, I misremembered it. I've read hundreds of stories and articles about the Allmans and I can't remember where I heard every single thing. I've read what I stated above in a couple of places (and the reason I posted it was in direct response to the question that started this thread). Maybe it's just something Les Dudek says and not something that's been backed up by the band. If so, my bad, and in either case, "I know" wasn't the best choice of words. I've heard those things a couple of times, and perhaps I should've phrased it more in that way. You're making too much of tihs. In no way am I trying to impugn Dickey Betts, and I haven't said he didn't write the song either.

 

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  posted on 3/16/2003 at 08:39 AM
What you have done is arrogantly defended a statement that by now even you must realize has no credibility. Had you said after the first misstatement that you made a mistake that would have been the end of it. Yet on you go with this nonsense. Now there are a hundred articles.

As the issue of song credits is a contentious one in the band there seems to be an agenda here related to that. I looked at your profile and saw your little essays and you seem to enjoy access to the band and this may be your way of ensuring you have further access.

I think the cyber world provides too easy of a context for the dissemination of false statements. In the real world if you tried a stunt like this people would ignore you or tell you to get lost. As you donít seem embarrassed and seem to enjoy making a fool of yourself, there are no constraints for people like you on the internet. Well there is banisihment but I don't agree with that.

 

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  posted on 3/16/2003 at 10:17 AM
I'm willing to make a "fool" out of myself too. I've read numerous articles over the years that give Les partial writing credit on Jessica. I have no problem with that - it's a wonderful song, no matter who penned it.

Does anyone have any concrete, indisputable evidence that Les didn't contribute to the song?

 
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  posted on 3/16/2003 at 10:58 AM
Reminds me of Jonathan Swift's prophesy:

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."

 

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  posted on 3/16/2003 at 01:31 PM
Pushka - what on earth are you talking about. I am only referring to the fact that they now have more equal input from multiple people, and that they are sort of like the Dead in that they are more varied in what they do, and how they play. And if you look, songwriting credits are more often to be shared now than in the past, where most major songs seemed to have only one credit.

That's it. Leave me out of the other crap. I don't know anything about how they make money, and they don't know how I do it. That's the way things should be.

PeacHe

 

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  posted on 3/16/2003 at 05:29 PM
quote:
As the issue of song credits is a contentious one in the band there seems to be an agenda here related to that. I looked at your profile and saw your little essays and you seem to enjoy access to the band and this may be your way of ensuring you have further access.

Ah, great, more of that SouthernMan crap. The band doesn't even read this site, you dope, and why would they care what I have to say anyway? My meeting Gregg once for a few minutes 2 years ago is related to whether or not Les Dudek was involved in writing Jessica? Please. I'm not the only one who even stated that they've read he was involved. My "access," as you call it -- I have access to nothing anyway -- wouldn't have anything to do with posting. You sound like a conspiracy nut.

 

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  posted on 3/16/2003 at 11:19 PM
Alright Alright, geeze- even The all Music guide gives him credit for the co- write..
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=11:01:52|PM&sql=Bhekcikz6bb39~ C

But I'm more surprise to find out he was like 16 in '73 ? hmm ,if that's true maybe it explains why he was not asked to join(he was a minor)

 

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  posted on 3/18/2003 at 09:04 AM
Pushka,
Holy war of semantics, batman
sit back, relax...don't even think about another cup o coffee... have a hot dog or two, spin the new cd and ENJOY.
Or not.

 
 


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