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Peach Head



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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 11:30 AM
thank you SquatchTexas - that means a lot to me.
 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 01:22 PM
quote:
Doug,

Saw this article today:

U.S. commander urges talks, sees Baghdad backlash
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSPAR83430220070308?src=030807_082 7_TOPSTORY_no_military_solution

quote:
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The new U.S. commander in Iraq said on Thursday military force would not end violence unless talks were held with some militant groups and warned of more "sensational attacks" during the current crackdown in Baghdad.

General David Petraeus, at his first news conference since he took command last month, also said he saw no immediate need for more U.S. troops, but reinforcements already requested would likely stay "well beyond the summer".

"There is no military solution to a problem like that in Iraq, to the insurgency of Iraq," Petraeus said.

"Military action is necessary to help improve security ... but it is not sufficient."

Political progress would require talking with "some of those who have felt the new Iraq did not have a place for them".

He said a key challenge for the Shi'ite-led government of Nuri al-Maliki was to identify those militant groups who were "reconcilable" and to bring them into the political process.


*This* would be a good way to start working towards a solution in Iraq. You HAVE to involve the groups that are currently fighting it out. This is addressing cultural concerns, individual ideologies, common goals etc. This is one of the ways you fight insurgents in an environment like Iraq. I may not agree with Petraeus on his surge idea (considering his documentation on how to fight insurgencies specifically contradicts it), but this suggestion has my support.


I agree with it as well. My general approach is to decide whether I trust the person. If I do and they are the expert and I am not, I tend to defer to their judgment until proven otherwise.

 

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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 01:24 PM
Ann and bstone,
I read your posts late last night and then reread them again this morning.
You have both said it so well by speaking with your mind and heart.
I thank you.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 01:31 PM
One more thing:

Ann Coullter's column has been dropped by at least three newspapers because of her remark about Edwards.
And "the liberal media" can't be blamed this time.
One of the papers is in Sevierville,Tenn.

 

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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 02:28 PM
quote:
It is difficult to say "Vietnam" without grimacing. Lies and betrayal turned our country inside-out. Lies and betrayal pitted Americans against Americans. This time in history was so so turbulent - protests were not solely related to the Vietnam war - coupled with the friction of the War was the Civil Rights Movement - the issues in America at that time goes on and on. Just mind boggling. I believe that entire era left all of us with a tremendous pain in our hearts, for various reasons, never to be forgotten.



...........It is very apparent that the serious issues facing the American people, right now, are growing by the minute. Global foreign affairs, the war in Irag, mistreatment at Walter Reed, the economy, healthcare issues, immigration, Katrina, etc. Just mind boggling. Silence is not golden right now.



As much as folks want apply what happened in the Vietnam era to the present, nothing going on right now compares to 1968. Not even close. Tet, MLK assassinated, JFK assassinated, presidential convention riots, race riots, and what you have left out was the Democrat's ruse that was the Gulf Of Tonkin incident, and the fact that not only was the White House and Democratic President LBJ micro-managing the war and thereby making our soldiers cannon fodder, but that those same kids could not vote for president. If you were 18, 19, or 20 years old you could not vote! Would the kids of today have enough ass to change something like that if it were like that now??

I was too young to be drafted, and in fact missed the draft by four years. Yet my father was in the military at the time, although his unit was not called up (he flew recon planes such as the L-19 and L-20 Beavers in the National Guard) but friends of mine were incountry. I remember debriefing my friend David, who was married to my best friend's sister Dottie Ziegler. He was a Marine and told me the story of hills that they would be ordered to take in ‘Nam for no tactical, strategic, or discernable reason during the day, and they would then be over-run again almost every night. There was no objective, it was just an order that came ‘from the top.’ A few Army platoons were hunkered down under intense fire on a nearby hill as well, yet the Army guys were rescued first because the Marines were supposed to be tougher and could hold out longer. Because he and his buddies were Marines, they told to take the heat until the Army guys were evacuated. It became crazy fast. He literally had an NVA almost step on his toes as he ran by; he was that close to the action and in the middle of it. Ultimately, his head couldn't take the war and he is still messed up, losing his family, and he may never be right again.

Another friend of mine was a black guy named Ross who was incountry for more than one tour. He was in a Time Magazine article in 1967 in a picture that showed him throwing a hand grenade. Some academy bookworm Lieutenant took over his platoon at some point and was clueless. He led them into mistake after mistake, yet wouldn't listen to those that had been there a long time. It got so bad that Ross and his fellow soldiers would purposely salute the Lieutenant while out in the field hoping a VC sniper would notice and take him out. It wasn’t exactly fragging, but it was close.

One day Ross and his buddies were asked by the Lieutenant to walk right into what they knew was a trap. At that point in time, Ross was three weeks from his tour of duty being up, and all he had to do was stay safe and wait it out until his trip home. But this asswipe officer was adamant about making the wrong move, time after time. Ross disagreed with him, and told him he was wrong one day. The officer said that if he said another word that he would get another tour of duty. Ross did not back down, and he was given another year in ‘Nam by the officer on the spot – Bam! The officer confronted him again with yet another tour of duty if he didn’t shut up, and Ross held his ground and got yet another tour of duty. Bam! Just minutes earlier he was out in three weeks, now he had two more years on the shelf.

At that point he didn't give a damn about anything, so he would volunteer to walk point. Now, a lot of times the guy who walks point through the jungle doesn't get killed because the ambushing VC or NVA would wait until the point man walked past them so they could wait on the bulk of the platoon to walk by and then they would attack. Ross walked point for six straight months and it f*cked with his brain and his nerves. I would be talking to Ross many years afterwards, and even then it was the same- if he was near a set of woods at the same time it was raining, even a light rain, the flashbacks would come back to the point that he was nervous and wary and damn near out of his mind. It happened right in front of me one day, as we were standing near some woods as a light rain fell.

Another story that Ross told me was about fighting in a small town in South Vietnam where a talented VC sniper was taking out soldier after soldier, with bullet after bullet, and doing so by moving from one building to the next on different days. After taking out a few of his fellow soldiers, his platoon finally took this f*ck out, and when they did they hooked the sniper's dead body onto the front of the tank and let his body rot so that the locals would see him rot for days until it was just his head left. They didn't care, as they wanted to show the locals what they would do to the enemy or those that helped the enemy.

As for the question of if I have ever seen the Vietnam Memorial, yes, and probably more times than you have. My kin live in DC and we always make a point of it. More than that, when I was in college in the 1980's I wrote a story on the Traveling Wall, which was a smaller replica of the Vietnam Wall that traveled from town to town. All of the names of the fallen soldiers were on it, just as with the DC memorial. Even when it was here in my part of Ohio, set up on the football field at Elder High school, a school that lost about ten kids in ‘Nam if I remember right, the scene was emotional and heartfelt. I met a soldier who had lost his leg in the war, and he had brought his family and friends to see the names of his fellow soldiers on the Wall that had died. Together they would find the names, and then this soldier would tell his people the story of why a particular soldier was important to him, and what he did while in action. The guy was a construction worker, and his artificial leg was dusty and creaky, but he was a big muscular boy who got the job done. He easily and proudly told the stories of his dead friends.

Other veterans that were there visiting the Wall, however, were not as able. Many would sit in their fatigues from a distance, not able to actually approach the Wall. Hats off to what our troops are going through today in Iraq, especially with the IED's. But man, Vietnam was a whole different ball game, with booby traps and devious jungle tactics that would make even an Iraqi veteran's skin crawl. While the Coppola movie "Apocalypse Now" is admittedly loosely based on the classic story "Heart Of Darkness" written by Joseph Conrad in 1902, ( A must read, an essential read, whether you went to college or not. It is short yet adventurous and well-written. A classic, and you will see where Coppola got his ideas for "Apocalypse Now" by the way, and you can read the book for free online here - http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/526, or http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/ConDark.html) a lot of the crazy **** in that movie did happen in one way or another. And so, with buddies dead and memories too strong, many vets could not make the walk down the hill.

One interesting thing about taking in the Traveling Wall at that time was seeing the notes left to the dead soldiers. Even though it wasn't the real memorial in DC, it was a heartfelt thing to meet, talk to, and witness the visit to the wall of the children of the dead soldiers. What was unique about seeing that at that time was the time frame- it was the 1980's and it was when many of the kids of the slain soldiers were becoming the exact same age that their Dad was when he lost his life. They were 18, 19, 20, whatever, and it was dawning on them that the blood flowing through their veins was of the same age as the blood that flowed out of their father's veins when the **** hit the fan for him in that jungle so far away. It also hit them because they were reaching the age that their father would never get to. Her father never got past 19 years of age. All of a sudden, they were facing the fact that they were becoming older than their father ever got, and the reaction to that realization was amazing.

That also was true for the widows of the dead soldiers. Of course, by then they had gone on to marry other men, and start new families, and had moved on. Yet, walking up to that Wall reminded them of a love that was forever young, that they themselves were young then as well, and that their relationship with their young lover was nipped in the bud before it could grow long in the tooth, before problems could arise, before mortgages or bills or arguments could get out of hand. They were young when they met and got together, with all the vibrancy that comes with young love, yet he never got older. It was a young part of life frozen in time. The average age of a World War Two soldier was 26. The average age of a Vietnam War soldier was 19. To these people, the memory of their lover, boyfriend, husband, or friend will always be one of youth.

A lot of these people expressed their thoughts to their dead friends by writing them a note and leaving it at the Traveling Wall for all to see and read. It wasn't a matter of writing a tribute to someone. They were letters and notes written directly to that soldier, in real time, in the present. I have many of them written down in that article, but I can't find it at the moment. Suffice it to say, it got to me, a damn sure still does. Notes from a friend that said, "many have forgotten you, Jimmy, but I never will."


Derek H

[Edited on 3/8/2007 by DerekFromCincinnati]

 

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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 02:45 PM
Being wrong and making poor choices isn't a democrat or republican issue....it's just wrong and making poor choices.

 

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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 04:03 PM
quote:
As much as folks want apply what happened in the Vietnam era to the present, nothing going on right now compares to 1968. Not even close.


If it cant even be remotely compared to Vietnam, then how can it be compared to WW2?

 

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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 04:23 PM
Derek - I did mention or elude to many other turbulent issues/events going on in our country during the Vietnam war. . .

"protesters were not solely related to the Vietnam war - coupled w/ the friction of the War was the Civil Rights Movement - issues in America at the time goes on and on . . ."

I just didn't get into all the specifics (but much earlier today I did so - covered many specifics, voting, assassinations, etc., on the Guestbook at RedDog's encouragement to speak out).

You speak of LBJ "micro-managing the war & thereby making our soldiers cannon fodder."

Well, hello, I did address that by stating, ". . . LBJ started putting restrictions on the ground troops & air bombers . . ."

I was never trying to imply that the combat in Vietnam is apples-to-apples with the combat in Irag. I do know the differences between jungle warfare & the Middle East desert. Actually have been there.

Having experienced the 60's & 70's, I would never imply that what is going on today is equal to that era.

My point was there were very poor decisions made going into Vietnam, poor decisions on how to proceed, a division amongst the elected officials, military officials, a divided country - lack of thorough debates and essentially poor homework that yielded devastating results - and history recorded it as a mistake.

That right there alone makes me see similarities (not identical, just similar) in how / why / we got into Irag, where are we going - how are we proceeding - where is the end -
will it be devastating to our country - will history record it as a mistake - we don't know that answer - but it sure as heck doesn't feel right - democrats and republicans alike are scrambling to find the right course - most all concur that the course has to be changed - but no one is quite sure what is best concerning the situation we are in - get the heck out or put more troops in, beef up training the Iragis so they can stand on their own - all of that has similarities to Vietnam.

And, yes, Derek, for those of us old enough during the Vietnam War then we all heard stories - story after story. All of the stories are equally moving and sad. All of the notes, all of the names of the dead, the wounded vets, the tears from men, women, and children . . .

Peace


 

Peach Head



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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 04:50 PM
Have any of you seen the Thread: Akaka Amendment No. 3007?

????????????????????

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/8/2007 at 05:31 PM
quote:
Actually, the lyrics of that particular song refer to the time when Midnight Riders was first published.... and the punch line is "It's hard to live your life in color and tell the truth in black and white." The song was started by Johnny one day while he was recording tracks for Searching For Simplicity. I worked with Johnny on the lyrics as did Scott who also worked on the music. Gregg came in, changed a chord or two and recorded the song which was a representation of how he was feeling about the book.

I suppose truth is subjective and is personal. My concept of the truth is obviously different from some others who post here. It must be intrepretation. And as for a number of issues that have been presented to the American people by this administration and congress....'Everybody's talkin' but nobody's telling the truth'

[Edited on 3/8/2007 by bigann]


I enjoyed reading this Ann. Personal stories are great.I know you are writing Johnny's book.
You are such an interesting story teller and writer, I look forward to the book.

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 08:57 AM
quote:
Just stating the obvious and letting her know how you are.



as opposed to letting her figure out what derek is about on her own. that seems pretty partisan to me.

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 08:58 AM
quote:
As much as folks want apply what happened in the Vietnam era to the present, nothing going on right now compares to 1968. Not even close. Tet, MLK assassinated, JFK assassinated, presidential convention riots, race riots, and what you have left out was the Democrat's ruse that was the Gulf Of Tonkin incident, and the fact that not only was the White House and Democratic President LBJ micro-managing the war and thereby making our soldiers cannon fodder, but that those same kids could not vote for president. If you were 18, 19, or 20 years old you could not vote! Would the kids of today have enough ass to change something like that if it were like that now??

I was too young to be drafted, and in fact missed the draft by four years. Yet my father was in the military at the time, although his unit was not called up (he flew recon planes such as the L-19 and L-20 Beavers in the National Guard) but friends of mine were incountry. I remember debriefing my friend David, who was married to my best friend's sister Dottie Ziegler. He was a Marine and told me the story of hills that they would be ordered to take in ‘Nam for no tactical, strategic, or discernable reason during the day, and they would then be over-run again almost every night. There was no objective, it was just an order that came ‘from the top.’ A few Army platoons were hunkered down under intense fire on a nearby hill as well, yet the Army guys were rescued first because the Marines were supposed to be tougher and could hold out longer. Because he and his buddies were Marines, they told to take the heat until the Army guys were evacuated. It became crazy fast. He literally had an NVA almost step on his toes as he ran by; he was that close to the action and in the middle of it. Ultimately, his head couldn't take the war and he is still messed up, losing his family, and he may never be right again.

Another friend of mine was a black guy named Ross who was incountry for more than one tour. He was in a Time Magazine article in 1967 in a picture that showed him throwing a hand grenade. Some academy bookworm Lieutenant took over his platoon at some point and was clueless. He led them into mistake after mistake, yet wouldn't listen to those that had been there a long time. It got so bad that Ross and his fellow soldiers would purposely salute the Lieutenant while out in the field hoping a VC sniper would notice and take him out. It wasn’t exactly fragging, but it was close.

One day Ross and his buddies were asked by the Lieutenant to walk right into what they knew was a trap. At that point in time, Ross was three weeks from his tour of duty being up, and all he had to do was stay safe and wait it out until his trip home. But this asswipe officer was adamant about making the wrong move, time after time. Ross disagreed with him, and told him he was wrong one day. The officer said that if he said another word that he would get another tour of duty. Ross did not back down, and he was given another year in ‘Nam by the officer on the spot – Bam! The officer confronted him again with yet another tour of duty if he didn’t shut up, and Ross held his ground and got yet another tour of duty. Bam! Just minutes earlier he was out in three weeks, now he had two more years on the shelf.

At that point he didn't give a damn about anything, so he would volunteer to walk point. Now, a lot of times the guy who walks point through the jungle doesn't get killed because the ambushing VC or NVA would wait until the point man walked past them so they could wait on the bulk of the platoon to walk by and then they would attack. Ross walked point for six straight months and it f*cked with his brain and his nerves. I would be talking to Ross many years afterwards, and even then it was the same- if he was near a set of woods at the same time it was raining, even a light rain, the flashbacks would come back to the point that he was nervous and wary and damn near out of his mind. It happened right in front of me one day, as we were standing near some woods as a light rain fell.

Another story that Ross told me was about fighting in a small town in South Vietnam where a talented VC sniper was taking out soldier after soldier, with bullet after bullet, and doing so by moving from one building to the next on different days. After taking out a few of his fellow soldiers, his platoon finally took this f*ck out, and when they did they hooked the sniper's dead body onto the front of the tank and let his body rot so that the locals would see him rot for days until it was just his head left. They didn't care, as they wanted to show the locals what they would do to the enemy or those that helped the enemy.

As for the question of if I have ever seen the Vietnam Memorial, yes, and probably more times than you have. My kin live in DC and we always make a point of it. More than that, when I was in college in the 1980's I wrote a story on the Traveling Wall, which was a smaller replica of the Vietnam Wall that traveled from town to town. All of the names of the fallen soldiers were on it, just as with the DC memorial. Even when it was here in my part of Ohio, set up on the football field at Elder High school, a school that lost about ten kids in ‘Nam if I remember right, the scene was emotional and heartfelt. I met a soldier who had lost his leg in the war, and he had brought his family and friends to see the names of his fellow soldiers on the Wall that had died. Together they would find the names, and then this soldier would tell his people the story of why a particular soldier was important to him, and what he did while in action. The guy was a construction worker, and his artificial leg was dusty and creaky, but he was a big muscular boy who got the job done. He easily and proudly told the stories of his dead friends.

Other veterans that were there visiting the Wall, however, were not as able. Many would sit in their fatigues from a distance, not able to actually approach the Wall. Hats off to what our troops are going through today in Iraq, especially with the IED's. But man, Vietnam was a whole different ball game, with booby traps and devious jungle tactics that would make even an Iraqi veteran's skin crawl. While the Coppola movie "Apocalypse Now" is admittedly loosely based on the classic story "Heart Of Darkness" written by Joseph Conrad in 1902, ( A must read, an essential read, whether you went to college or not. It is short yet adventurous and well-written. A classic, and you will see where Coppola got his ideas for "Apocalypse Now" by the way, and you can read the book for free online here - http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/526, or http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/ConDark.html) a lot of the crazy **** in that movie did happen in one way or another. And so, with buddies dead and memories too strong, many vets could not make the walk down the hill.

One interesting thing about taking in the Traveling Wall at that time was seeing the notes left to the dead soldiers. Even though it wasn't the real memorial in DC, it was a heartfelt thing to meet, talk to, and witness the visit to the wall of the children of the dead soldiers. What was unique about seeing that at that time was the time frame- it was the 1980's and it was when many of the kids of the slain soldiers were becoming the exact same age that their Dad was when he lost his life. They were 18, 19, 20, whatever, and it was dawning on them that the blood flowing through their veins was of the same age as the blood that flowed out of their father's veins when the **** hit the fan for him in that jungle so far away. It also hit them because they were reaching the age that their father would never get to. Her father never got past 19 years of age. All of a sudden, they were facing the fact that they were becoming older than their father ever got, and the reaction to that realization was amazing.

That also was true for the widows of the dead soldiers. Of course, by then they had gone on to marry other men, and start new families, and had moved on. Yet, walking up to that Wall reminded them of a love that was forever young, that they themselves were young then as well, and that their relationship with their young lover was nipped in the bud before it could grow long in the tooth, before problems could arise, before mortgages or bills or arguments could get out of hand. They were young when they met and got together, with all the vibrancy that comes with young love, yet he never got older. It was a young part of life frozen in time. The average age of a World War Two soldier was 26. The average age of a Vietnam War soldier was 19. To these people, the memory of their lover, boyfriend, husband, or friend will always be one of youth.

A lot of these people expressed their thoughts to their dead friends by writing them a note and leaving it at the Traveling Wall for all to see and read. It wasn't a matter of writing a tribute to someone. They were letters and notes written directly to that soldier, in real time, in the present. I have many of them written down in that article, but I can't find it at the moment. Suffice it to say, it got to me, a damn sure still does. Notes from a friend that said, "many have forgotten you, Jimmy, but I never will."


Derek H



Sweetie do you need a cigarette after typing all of that, or what?

Very touching stuff Derek, thank you. My own father served in Vietnam and had his share of horror stories, friends that stood next to him one minute that died a minute later. Surreal stuff. My Grandfather served in WW2, and his ship, Then Enterprise, was attacked, many in the engine room drowned. Good people here one day, erased the next.

anyway, Ann, i salute your efforts to not letting this small place on the web forget the sacrifices our military is making everyday. I just hate how everything has to be labeled as something. the facts are simple: we are sending soldiers overseas, and some of them are not coming back. If that doesnt make you mad as hell despite what political party you run with, that is a sad, sad, thing.

[Edited on 3/9/2007 by LinnieXX]

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 09:46 AM
quote:
quote:
Just stating the obvious and letting her know how you are.



as opposed to letting her figure out what derek is about on her own. that seems pretty partisan to me.


I was trying to break it down for Derek. I know Ann can figure it out on her own. She already has.

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 11:36 AM
Derek, since you like to "tell it as it is", just how "old" were you during the Vietnam Era? Don't think you were ever old enough to have to face the prospects of being drafted, as some of like myself had to (of course, I was fortunate enough to get a "high number"). Also, for someone, who would have you believe, knows so much about the military and veterans, and has been pretty much "pro-war" and "pro-neoconservative" since the beginning. I'm curious why you yourself never served in the military? Care to "tell it as it is"?
 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 11:49 AM
March deaths - 26
February deaths - 84
January deaths - 86
Total dead - 3,189

February '07 - 50
January '07 - 631
Total wounded - 33, 814

March Iraqi civilian deaths - 520
February Iraqi civilian deaths - 1,531
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802
Total Iraqi civilian deaths in past 14 months - 22,820

Mission Accomplished day 1,423

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 01:23 PM
quote:
Derek, since you like to "tell it as it is", just how "old" were you during the Vietnam Era? Don't think you were ever old enough to have to face the prospects of being drafted, as some of like myself had to (of course, I was fortunate enough to get a "high number"). Also, for someone, who would have you believe, knows so much about the military and veterans, and has been pretty much "pro-war" and "pro-neoconservative" since the beginning. I'm curious why you yourself never served in the military? Care to "tell it as it is"?



Well, number on Sib, if you will adjust your meds and heighten your reading retention you will see that I addressed that specifically when I said above that "I was too young to be drafted, and in fact missed the draft by four years." As for myself, I came of age in 1977 during your buddy Jimmy Carter's reign, when he was cutting the military left and right, and his 'leadership' of 'malaise' brought the country down. Vietnam was over, and the military was shrinking, and the benefits that are there now weren't there then. My dad was a full bird Colonel and I butted heads with him, especially after he left home a few year before, and I had no intention of following in his footsteps. Looking back, I probably could have used a two year stint right out of high school as I didn't go to college until much later, and I learned how to use a gun in my drug dealing days back then. A few hairy situations, but never hurt anyone. Even so, I actually voted for Carter in 1980 at the end of my liberal indoctrination. I was soon cured. Past that, you continue to write as if you saw action while in the military. When, and in what theater??

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 01:57 PM
Well Derek,

While I am "Vietnam era" veteran, fortunately I never was given orders to go that Asian nation, but nevertheless if given the orders I would gone and no doubt would have been assigned to a Marine Infantry unit (I was trained as a corpsman), which is a helluva lot more than you ever did for your country. btw, Derek, loved how you "blamed" your daddy. Granted he may have been an a$$hole, but joining the military wouldn't have necessarily been "following in his footsteps". As for your "learning to use a gun during my drug dealing days" comment, that ain't nothing to be impressed about, as your average 12 year old living in any "inner city neighborhood" knows how to do that, but then again I've been through some of those drug adventures myself, as have many around here, so all can say to that is "so what". What's even less impressive is your comment about " I actually voted for Carter in 1980 at the end of my liberal indoctrination". I didn't vote for Carter the first time around in 1976, much less in 1980. Perhaps "your buddy Jimmy Carter" should refer to yourself as YOU ACTUALLY vote for him after his 1st Four Years.

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 02:43 PM
quote:
... I learned how to use a gun in my drug dealing days back then. A few hairy situations, but never hurt anyone.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you spent a night in the New Orleans jail. You're a bad boy, no doubt about it.

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 02:50 PM
quote:
so all can say to that is "so what".


Say it louder Sib! Maybe the band will hear you and they will play it at the Beacon this year

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 03:08 PM
SO WHAT!!!!!

Linnie,

Is that "Loud" enough? btw, that would be damn good song for the ABB to cover. Anyway here's a youTube link with Miles Davis and John Coltrane playing "So What".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4FAKRpUCYY

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 03:09 PM


THANKS SIB!

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 04:33 PM
Someone needs to do a story on Derek..maybe A and E or Lifetime. Done it all, seen it all, been through it all and he still has time to grace us with his wisdom.

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 04:48 PM
"One difference, I tell it like it is, and that includes disagreeing with the Administration. I'm not a republican. For instance, I called for Rumsfield to be fired way back in 2004, I called for Cheney to be kicked off the ticket in the 2004 election, I called the notion of 'Occupation on the cheap' wrong and have suggested a different tack, I think Bush is one of the worse communicating presidents in my lifetime, I've said that we should talk to Iran, and I've brought up what is going on in the Sudan long before it was hip, back when it was about slavery instead of genocide, I have ripped on Bush up one side and down the other for not using the presidential veto on a spending bill even once, on and on."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------
Well, I think this is probably true-Derek is for what the liberals are for a couple of years after the liberals first say it. Hindsight is perfect vision! Check the liberal positions now for where Derek will be in the future.

 

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  posted on 3/9/2007 at 08:17 PM
quote:
quote:
It is difficult to say "Vietnam" without grimacing. Lies and betrayal turned our country inside-out. Lies and betrayal pitted Americans against Americans. This time in history was so so turbulent - protests were not solely related to the Vietnam war - coupled with the friction of the War was the Civil Rights Movement - the issues in America at that time goes on and on. Just mind boggling. I believe that entire era left all of us with a tremendous pain in our hearts, for various reasons, never to be forgotten.



...........It is very apparent that the serious issues facing the American people, right now, are growing by the minute. Global foreign affairs, the war in Irag, mistreatment at Walter Reed, the economy, healthcare issues, immigration, Katrina, etc. Just mind boggling. Silence is not golden right now.



As much as folks want apply what happened in the Vietnam era to the present, nothing going on right now compares to 1968. Not even close. Tet, MLK assassinated, JFK assassinated, presidential convention riots, race riots, and what you have left out was the Democrat's ruse that was the Gulf Of Tonkin incident, and the fact that not only was the White House and Democratic President LBJ micro-managing the war and thereby making our soldiers cannon fodder, but that those same kids could not vote for president. If you were 18, 19, or 20 years old you could not vote! Would the kids of today have enough ass to change something like that if it were like that now??

I was too young to be drafted, and in fact missed the draft by four years. Yet my father was in the military at the time, although his unit was not called up (he flew recon planes such as the L-19 and L-20 Beavers in the National Guard) but friends of mine were incountry. I remember debriefing my friend David, who was married to my best friend's sister Dottie Ziegler. He was a Marine and told me the story of hills that they would be ordered to take in ‘Nam for no tactical, strategic, or discernable reason during the day, and they would then be over-run again almost every night. There was no objective, it was just an order that came ‘from the top.’ A few Army platoons were hunkered down under intense fire on a nearby hill as well, yet the Army guys were rescued first because the Marines were supposed to be tougher and could hold out longer. Because he and his buddies were Marines, they told to take the heat until the Army guys were evacuated. It became crazy fast. He literally had an NVA almost step on his toes as he ran by; he was that close to the action and in the middle of it. Ultimately, his head couldn't take the war and he is still messed up, losing his family, and he may never be right again.

Another friend of mine was a black guy named Ross who was incountry for more than one tour. He was in a Time Magazine article in 1967 in a picture that showed him throwing a hand grenade. Some academy bookworm Lieutenant took over his platoon at some point and was clueless. He led them into mistake after mistake, yet wouldn't listen to those that had been there a long time. It got so bad that Ross and his fellow soldiers would purposely salute the Lieutenant while out in the field hoping a VC sniper would notice and take him out. It wasn’t exactly fragging, but it was close.

One day Ross and his buddies were asked by the Lieutenant to walk right into what they knew was a trap. At that point in time, Ross was three weeks from his tour of duty being up, and all he had to do was stay safe and wait it out until his trip home. But this asswipe officer was adamant about making the wrong move, time after time. Ross disagreed with him, and told him he was wrong one day. The officer said that if he said another word that he would get another tour of duty. Ross did not back down, and he was given another year in ‘Nam by the officer on the spot – Bam! The officer confronted him again with yet another tour of duty if he didn’t shut up, and Ross held his ground and got yet another tour of duty. Bam! Just minutes earlier he was out in three weeks, now he had two more years on the shelf.

At that point he didn't give a damn about anything, so he would volunteer to walk point. Now, a lot of times the guy who walks point through the jungle doesn't get killed because the ambushing VC or NVA would wait until the point man walked past them so they could wait on the bulk of the platoon to walk by and then they would attack. Ross walked point for six straight months and it f*cked with his brain and his nerves. I would be talking to Ross many years afterwards, and even then it was the same- if he was near a set of woods at the same time it was raining, even a light rain, the flashbacks would come back to the point that he was nervous and wary and damn near out of his mind. It happened right in front of me one day, as we were standing near some woods as a light rain fell.

Another story that Ross told me was about fighting in a small town in South Vietnam where a talented VC sniper was taking out soldier after soldier, with bullet after bullet, and doing so by moving from one building to the next on different days. After taking out a few of his fellow soldiers, his platoon finally took this f*ck out, and when they did they hooked the sniper's dead body onto the front of the tank and let his body rot so that the locals would see him rot for days until it was just his head left. They didn't care, as they wanted to show the locals what they would do to the enemy or those that helped the enemy.

As for the question of if I have ever seen the Vietnam Memorial, yes, and probably more times than you have. My kin live in DC and we always make a point of it. More than that, when I was in college in the 1980's I wrote a story on the Traveling Wall, which was a smaller replica of the Vietnam Wall that traveled from town to town. All of the names of the fallen soldiers were on it, just as with the DC memorial. Even when it was here in my part of Ohio, set up on the football field at Elder High school, a school that lost about ten kids in ‘Nam if I remember right, the scene was emotional and heartfelt. I met a soldier who had lost his leg in the war, and he had brought his family and friends to see the names of his fellow soldiers on the Wall that had died. Together they would find the names, and then this soldier would tell his people the story of why a particular soldier was important to him, and what he did while in action. The guy was a construction worker, and his artificial leg was dusty and creaky, but he was a big muscular boy who got the job done. He easily and proudly told the stories of his dead friends.

Other veterans that were there visiting the Wall, however, were not as able. Many would sit in their fatigues from a distance, not able to actually approach the Wall. Hats off to what our troops are going through today in Iraq, especially with the IED's. But man, Vietnam was a whole different ball game, with booby traps and devious jungle tactics that would make even an Iraqi veteran's skin crawl. While the Coppola movie "Apocalypse Now" is admittedly loosely based on the classic story "Heart Of Darkness" written by Joseph Conrad in 1902, ( A must read, an essential read, whether you went to college or not. It is short yet adventurous and well-written. A classic, and you will see where Coppola got his ideas for "Apocalypse Now" by the way, and you can read the book for free online here - http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/526, or http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/ConDark.html) a lot of the crazy **** in that movie did happen in one way or another. And so, with buddies dead and memories too strong, many vets could not make the walk down the hill.

One interesting thing about taking in the Traveling Wall at that time was seeing the notes left to the dead soldiers. Even though it wasn't the real memorial in DC, it was a heartfelt thing to meet, talk to, and witness the visit to the wall of the children of the dead soldiers. What was unique about seeing that at that time was the time frame- it was the 1980's and it was when many of the kids of the slain soldiers were becoming the exact same age that their Dad was when he lost his life. They were 18, 19, 20, whatever, and it was dawning on them that the blood flowing through their veins was of the same age as the blood that flowed out of their father's veins when the **** hit the fan for him in that jungle so far away. It also hit them because they were reaching the age that their father would never get to. Her father never got past 19 years of age. All of a sudden, they were facing the fact that they were becoming older than their father ever got, and the reaction to that realization was amazing.

That also was true for the widows of the dead soldiers. Of course, by then they had gone on to marry other men, and start new families, and had moved on. Yet, walking up to that Wall reminded them of a love that was forever young, that they themselves were young then as well, and that their relationship with their young lover was nipped in the bud before it could grow long in the tooth, before problems could arise, before mortgages or bills or arguments could get out of hand. They were young when they met and got together, with all the vibrancy that comes with young love, yet he never got older. It was a young part of life frozen in time. The average age of a World War Two soldier was 26. The average age of a Vietnam War soldier was 19. To these people, the memory of their lover, boyfriend, husband, or friend will always be one of youth.

A lot of these people expressed their thoughts to their dead friends by writing them a note and leaving it at the Traveling Wall for all to see and read. It wasn't a matter of writing a tribute to someone. They were letters and notes written directly to that soldier, in real time, in the present. I have many of them written down in that article, but I can't find it at the moment. Suffice it to say, it got to me, a damn sure still does. Notes from a friend that said, "many have forgotten you, Jimmy, but I never will."


Derek H

[Edited on 3/8/2007 by DerekFromCincinnati]



I generally stay away from replying to threads such as this, but I'm a little slow, so derek, If you would, explain to me what you are trying to say in this post.....

 

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  posted on 3/10/2007 at 11:52 AM
March deaths - 27
February deaths - 84
January deaths - 86
Total dead - 3,190

February '07 - 50
January '07 - 631
Total wounded - 33, 814

March Iraqi civilian deaths - 520
February Iraqi civilian deaths - 1,531
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802
Total Iraqi civilian deaths in past 14 months - 22,820

Mission Accomplished day 1,424

 

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