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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 05:41 PM
quote:
I'm absolutely a history buff, especially considering what I have had to correct on here at times.


..and the revisions you spout.

quote:
Apparently you are not aware of what it takes specifially to fly into Baghdad, and apparently don't think it is dangerous simply because Bush was the one flying in at the time, but, that's fine..................


If you honestly think they are going to let Bush get within 20 miles of danger, youre dumber than even I thought you were.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 05:42 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Nine U.S. Soldiers Killed in Attacks, Military Says

It is believed to be the third deadliest attack on U.S. troops in Iraq this year. Twelve soldiers were killed in January when their helicopter was shot down and 7 died in another helicopter downing the following month.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/06/AR200703060 0181.html


Clearly, the "surge" is working.





It actually does seem to be working but when you only hear about American casualties and NOTHING else, its understandable you would get a gloomy outlook. It's caleld propganda.



Just how do you know what we read and where we get information? Not enough attention is being given to the dead American soldiers. At this point that is more important to me than anything else and should be on the front page of every newspaper everyday. As for propaganda, the Bush/Cheney bunch are experts at that. I know propaganda and BS when I see it. I've seen plenty
of it in my lifetime. Why do you continue to insist our beliefs come from thinking in a vacuum? Is it because you are so narrow minded you can't accept that others have different views.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 05:55 PM
When I read a right wing party line that flies in the face of common sense I pause to remember this is the party championed by Ann Coulter and then it all falls into place.

You can't argue with a blind man about the color of the sky.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 06:13 PM
quote:
quote:
Whatever happened to the days when the king would lead the troops into battle? I suppose Bush could never do that because he's too busy doing interviews with Fox and photo ops!


Well in those days, wars of conquest for the personal agrandazement of the King was the order of the day. I guess you want to return to that. Do you have a problem that Lincoln didn't lead the union forces out into battle? Perhaps Roosevelt should have rode in a tank with Patton. That's just silly.


EXCUSE ME! Silly? Ann? You are so wrong. An intelligent, strong minded woman who can hold her on with any of you. When you don't have a good argument you resort to insults. This makes me so angry. Silly? Please.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 06:53 PM
quote:
quote:
What a boatload of diversionary BS, yet a typical response from the 'no core values whatsoever' Left. Answer the question.


This from the king of misdirection. Hysterical. Yeah, the Right is just brimming with core values huh?

quote:
Would you have teamed up with the murdering communist dictator Stalin in WWII or not??


Loaded question, already answered. See above.

quote:
Support what argument?? What the hell are you talking about??


Do I have to teach you reading comprehension?

quote:
How did I just try to connect Saddam with Al Qeada?? I pointed out your duplicitous bullsh*t. Are you even bright enough to understand what is written?? Once again, I pointed out the other day on this thread that even Sunni's were turning against Al Qeada in response to your post below,


Beats me why you brought up Saddam and AQ. Apparently the actions of a few people means that the whole ideology is changing? Maybe you can clarify your intent.

quote:
One last time as I try to enlighten the unenlightenable - Underneath everything to do with Russia and the Soviet Union was the concept of communism. When folks defected from the Soviet Bloc, it was to escape communism. When the Soviets forced its citizens to stay within its borders, as Castro and Il Kim still do, or if a citizen did travel they never let whole families do so at the same time, it was to further perpetuate communism. When the call for the Berlin Wall to fall came, it was to go against communism. When folks were shot in the back trying to escape East Berlin, it was to escape communism. When the Soviet Union expanded its empire, it was to expand communism. I know first hand, because, as I have told about countless times on here, I was a part of helping Soviet, Hungarian, Polish defectors to make it here in America in the 1970's and 80's after they escaped communism, and even spent countless hours talking with, living with, breaking bread with the Soviet citizens and cultural exchange liasons who visited my best friend's father on a regular basis, he being one of the pre-eminent Russian language teachers in the country - (Henry Ziegler of Princeton High School, Cincinnati, Ohio who was also the President, Slava; Chair, U.S. Olympiada Committee; Board of Directors, American Council of Teachers of Russian, and author of 1982's "My Russian Program Is Alive and Growing." http://tinyurl.com/2cwmnt)

The Soviet citizens who visited us for months at a time were not allowed to travel with their spouses or family members at the same time, because communism splits them up so they have to come back. But, some Soviet visitors to us did defect anyway, and we helped them out as well.


Meanwhile, after you wasted all that time, you still cant admit that communism is alive and well in a number of largely populated countries such as China and NK. Either its been defeated or it hasnt. You dont get it both ways. All of what you said is true. Whats also true is that its still going on today. Russia did not change into something other than Communism. They went broke and fell apart. It had 0 to do with Democracy or anything else related to political ideology. There are fewer Communist nations now than in the past, but that can and will likely, change due to global politics. Youre too shortsighted to see that.

quote:
But I understand your underlying leftist loyalties, so this doesn't really surprise me. It accounts for ther fronting for Hugo Chavez.


LOL..what you understand would fit in a thimble. Stick to music.

quote:
Past that, what question is it that I am not answering?? Whatever it is, and whoever has one that they feel I'm not answering, bring it on, please, and be specific.

DH


I asked you "Did we know then what we know now?" (with regard to Russia at the time) and I added "I doubt it". Beyond that, the Russians would have pursued victory over Germany with or without our help and I believe the outcome would have been the same. I dont know the historical particulars of our alignment with Russia, but I doubt it was a choice of choosing one bad guy over another.






China is not ideologically communist anymore. Although NK is a threat to South Korea and the region due to its madman dictator, it is not a risk to export its ideology anywhere else on earth. Ideologically communism is a spent force.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 06:57 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Nine U.S. Soldiers Killed in Attacks, Military Says

It is believed to be the third deadliest attack on U.S. troops in Iraq this year. Twelve soldiers were killed in January when their helicopter was shot down and 7 died in another helicopter downing the following month.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/06/AR200703060 0181.html


Clearly, the "surge" is working.





It actually does seem to be working but when you only hear about American casualties and NOTHING else, its understandable you would get a gloomy outlook. It's caleld propganda.



Just how do you know what we read and where we get information? Not enough attention is being given to the dead American soldiers. At this point that is more important to me than anything else and should be on the front page of every newspaper everyday. As for propaganda, the Bush/Cheney bunch are experts at that. I know propaganda and BS when I see it. I've seen plenty
of it in my lifetime. Why do you continue to insist our beliefs come from thinking in a vacuum? Is it because you are so narrow minded you can't accept that others have different views.


I accept that you have different views. I just think they are wrong. I am constantly accused of taking marchinng orders from Hannity and Limbaugh which is a load of crap. If you think the MOST important thing is to trumpet the casualties everyday tot he exclusion of all other news, then you are not interested in our success but our failure. It would be more intellectually honest to just admit this. You want the U.S. to fail in Iraq for whatever reason and the best way to do that is to maximize news of the casualties and minimize any good news. We could not have won any war we were ever forced to fight in under such conditions including WWII and the American Revolution, let alone the Civil War.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 06:58 PM
quote:
When I read a right wing party line that flies in the face of common sense I pause to remember this is the party championed by Ann Coulter and then it all falls into place.

You can't argue with a blind man about the color of the sky.


So this is what it's come to. Supporting the mission of our country is now a "right-wing party line". That makes me sad. But it's probably accurate.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 07:19 PM
Nope, but the rhetoric being slung around here certainly can be implied as such And if you can explain exactly what the mission IS, please feel free to do so....what it was supposed to be was accomplished 1,420 days ago...since then there really hasn't been a clear mission with a projected goal and plan to accomplish it. That's a fact.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 07:44 PM
quote:
You want the U.S. to fail in Iraq for whatever reason and the best way to do that is to maximize news of the casualties and minimize any good news. We could not have won any war we were ever forced to fight in under such conditions including WWII and the American Revolution, let alone the Civil War.


Since when does maximizing or minimizing whatever news as reported to the general public in America have anything to do with the operations in Iraq? Seriously, now. 90% of this country could give a flying rat's a$$ about Iraq. American Idol is on tonight. More people are going to be talking tomorrow about how bad Sanjaya was as opposed to how bad things are in Baghdad or anywhere else. If you're so upset about the lack of support for the "mission," whatever the hell it happens to be this week, then look straight at the Administration that has given people zero reason to support the war in the first place. Soldiers in hospitals are told not to talk to reporters and their bodies are brought home in secrecy. There has not and there will not be any call for shared sacrifice.

The issue surrounding the war is simple. Everyone knows, but won't say the truth - we are never leaving Iraq, especially the way things stand now. Apparently it's just fine to send Americans into a meat grinder to establish whatever it is we're trying to establish to enhance another country at the expense of ours. If that's fine with you, then you are fine with the "mission." If you don't agree with that, you can protest, vote, speak out or list statistics the remind all of the human cost of the war.

The real tragedy, as it always has been, is that the military is at war, but the country is not. That begins and ends with tragically comical leadership from the get go, and no spin, rhetoric, blog, message board or argument is going to change that.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 07:48 PM
quote:
Nope, but the rhetoric being slung around here certainly can be implied as such And if you can explain exactly what the mission IS, please feel free to do so....what it was supposed to be was accomplished 1,420 days ago...since then there really hasn't been a clear mission with a projected goal and plan to accomplish it. That's a fact.


We're trying to leave the country stable enough so that the government can support itself when we leave. I agree it has been mishandled but that is the mission. And there is still a shot at success if it is given a chance. The alternative is chaos and terrible terrible bloodshed which will make the current situation seem like nothing.

 

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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 08:33 PM
I urge you to join Wes Clark's effort to investigate the Bush Administration's appalling disregard for the welfare & safety of American troops in Iraq.

An internal government report recently obtained by the NY Times & published in an article this past weekend confirms "80 percent of the Marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to the upper body could have survived if they had had extra body armor." The Times report continued, noting that "such armor has been available since 2003," but the Pentagon declined to supply it to the troops despite "calls from the field for additional protection." This is unconscionable. This is incompetent.

I just co-signed General Wes Clark's letter to Senate Armed Services . . . urging a full
investigation - Congress needs to act now - demand body armor for our troops in Iraq.
You, too, can sign up:

http://ga4.org/campaign/bodyarmor?rk=zp_J19s1qmy5W

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 09:57 PM
I just signed the petition.......and I saw this link......what's this about!!!!????

Ending the Widow's Tax

I was proud to join House Leaders Nancy Pelosi, Ike Skelton, Lane Evans, and John Salazar last year on Capitol Hill to unveil the new GI Bill of Rights for the 21st Century, legislation designed to improve benefits for our soldiers and their families today, while providing long overdue benefits for our veterans and military retirees.

We recognized that something needed to be done to eliminate the "widow's tax," which penalizes the survivors of those killed in combat by reducing the benefits to which they are entitled.

Unfortunately, the one-party Congress has chosen to pursue their own agenda -- focusing on making the tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans permanent. As for the "widow's tax?" An amendment to repeal it was removed from the latest defense authorization bill by the Republican Congressional leadership.

A widow of a service member killed in the line of duty is supported by the survivors' plan paid by the Department of Defense and a dependent's compensation paid by the Department of Veterans Affairs. But under the current law, the payment from the Defense Department is reduced dollar for dollar by the Veterans Administration's payment: The "widow's tax."

Please contact President Bush and your Members of Congress. Tell them to end the "widow's tax" today.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 10:03 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Nine U.S. Soldiers Killed in Attacks, Military Says

It is believed to be the third deadliest attack on U.S. troops in Iraq this year. Twelve soldiers were killed in January when their helicopter was shot down and 7 died in another helicopter downing the following month.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/06/AR200703060 0181.html


Clearly, the "surge" is working.





It actually does seem to be working but when you only hear about American casualties and NOTHING else, its understandable you would get a gloomy outlook. It's caleld propganda.



Just how do you know what we read and where we get information? Not enough attention is being given to the dead American soldiers. At this point that is more important to me than anything else and should be on the front page of every newspaper everyday. As for propaganda, the Bush/Cheney bunch are experts at that. I know propaganda and BS when I see it. I've seen plenty
of it in my lifetime. Why do you continue to insist our beliefs come from thinking in a vacuum? Is it because you are so narrow minded you can't accept that others have different views.


I accept that you have different views. I just think they are wrong. I am constantly accused of taking marchinng orders from Hannity and Limbaugh which is a load of crap. If you think the MOST important thing is to trumpet the casualties everyday tot he exclusion of all other news, then you are not interested in our success but our failure. It would be more intellectually honest to just admit this. You want the U.S. to fail in Iraq for whatever reason and the best way to do that is to maximize news of the casualties and minimize any good news. We could not have won any war we were ever forced to fight in under such conditions including WWII and the American Revolution, let alone the Civil War.



It is amazing to me how you can read other peoples thoughts. And the way you try to
revise what others have said. Have you looked into a career as a psychic?
No where did I say "minimize any good news". Those are your words not mine.
You said I want failure. Ann was right. You can't argue the color of the sky with a blind man.
As for intellectual honesty - that's funny coming from you.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 10:33 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Nine U.S. Soldiers Killed in Attacks, Military Says

It is believed to be the third deadliest attack on U.S. troops in Iraq this year. Twelve soldiers were killed in January when their helicopter was shot down and 7 died in another helicopter downing the following month.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/06/AR200703060 0181.html


Clearly, the "surge" is working.





It actually does seem to be working but when you only hear about American casualties and NOTHING else, its understandable you would get a gloomy outlook. It's caleld propganda.



Just how do you know what we read and where we get information? Not enough attention is being given to the dead American soldiers. At this point that is more important to me than anything else and should be on the front page of every newspaper everyday. As for propaganda, the Bush/Cheney bunch are experts at that. I know propaganda and BS when I see it. I've seen plenty
of it in my lifetime. Why do you continue to insist our beliefs come from thinking in a vacuum? Is it because you are so narrow minded you can't accept that others have different views.


I accept that you have different views. I just think they are wrong. I am constantly accused of taking marchinng orders from Hannity and Limbaugh which is a load of crap. If you think the MOST important thing is to trumpet the casualties everyday tot he exclusion of all other news, then you are not interested in our success but our failure. It would be more intellectually honest to just admit this. You want the U.S. to fail in Iraq for whatever reason and the best way to do that is to maximize news of the casualties and minimize any good news. We could not have won any war we were ever forced to fight in under such conditions including WWII and the American Revolution, let alone the Civil War.



It is amazing to me how you can read other peoples thoughts. And the way you try to
revise what others have said. Have you looked into a career as a psychic?
No where did I say "minimize any good news". Those are your words not mine.
You said I want failure. Ann was right. You can't argue the color of the sky with a blind man.
As for intellectual honesty - that's funny coming from you.



I'm not going to get into a shouting match with you. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I don't know what you really think. This is the impression I have gotten, if not from you, then from others here and elsewhere. No one I have encountered on this board who opposes the war has given me any reason to believe your views are based on anything more than a reflexive distaste for war and a dislike of Bush in particular. Distaste for war is a great thing and something we all have. (Whether you believe it or not) But the anti-war folks have yet to give me any reason to believe they understand the consequences of cutting and running. While I do not know what you folks are thinking, as you rightly point out, it seems that you believe there will be no negative consequence to our leaving Iraq right now. You act as if this is nothing more than a lark or plot of the Bush administration to waste lives. Except for Squatchtexas who doesn't believe there is any jihadist threat to us or at least that it is greatly exagerated (I apologize if I mischaracterized your position Squatch) None of you seem to have come to grips with what leaving Iraq right now would mean. It's something to think about. I don't think I am revising what others have said. Please correct me where I have done so. It is not my intention to do so. I, frankly think the ability to have a civil discussion is vital to our national well-being. Certainly both sides are guilty of moving the discussion beyond policy and into the personal. I happen to support the war effort so I notice it more from the war opponents. But you guys who oppose the war don't seem to notice it when your side does so. I am fully willing to admit that both sides need to be civil. Those of us who support the war are aware of the casualties. I wonder if those who oppose the war are aware of the good that has come, even with all the bad. It is certainly out there. Much of Iraq is infinitely better off than it was under Hussein. There is tremendous civil strife but many societies have that and eventually overcome it. Our own society did. I believe that it is our job to try to hand off to the new Iraqi government, the ability to fight the strife. I do not believe the tactics used over the last three years have been effective and I blame the administration for that. I believe a new tactic is being used now and it has a decent chance at success. The best way to save lives, American and Iraqi, is to support the effort to bring the war to a successful conclusion. General Patreus was confirmed by the entire Senate. This is what he wants to do. Why not give it a chance? Let's discuss this civilly. As for minimizing good news, while you may not have said it, there is no doubt in my mind that, for a variety of reasons, it is being done. The biggest reason may be simply because its more interesting to report a glossy disaster than a somewhat boring positive trend. But I do believe much of the mainstream media is lazy (not liberal, lazy) and that they fit their reporting into a pre-existing mold. Right now the mold is, war lost, lives wasted. Unless something pretty dramatic happens, they are not going to change the mold. There are ways to acknowledge, honor, and remember the casualties while still supporting the effort to win. I certainly do not believe they should be supressed. I am sorry if I gave that impression. One way to honor the soldiers is to play up the many instances of heroism. In order to do that, we need to examine the individual stories, not simply report statistics.

[Edited on 3/7/2007 by dougrhon]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 11:06 PM
I will continue to report the statistics.....as I've said before the numbers represent people who have made a sacrifice, both American and Iraqi. You want to report the stories of heroism, I'll be proud to read them. Some posting here have already done so. But I want you to read 'the numbers'.

Do I think of the consequences of leaving Iraq? Yes...but I was also aware of the consequences of our leaving Vietnam....and yet today, they're doing well without our occupation of their country. The Middle East has centuries of history that we in the United States don't understand.....nor have any of our previous attempts to help settle their differences lasted. This was been doomed before it started.

We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. Thousands of innocent Iraqis have died because we did. (Now is the time to trot out what a terrible man Sadaam was and how much better off they are for him being gone....sorry, that doesn't fly.) The United States helped create that monster. We should have withdrawn support immediately and given some of it to the factions in the best position to overthrow his regime.

This country was led down the path by lies from this administration and a congress without guts to say no. It was obvious from the beginning Afghanistan was only the door into Iraq and I've never said we shouldn't have gone into Afghanistan....but going into Iraq was and is a mistake. So we leave. What happens? The people fight it out themseves....like they did in Vietnam.....and they settle their differences in the context of their history.

The reason so many people don't want us out of this war is because they don't want to 'lose'. Looking objectively at a situation and realizing that it is time to withdraw isn't losing.....it's called making a wise decision. As once said.....who wants to be the last man to die for a mistake? I knew one of the last ones to die for the Vietnam mistake. I don't want to know one of the last ones to die from this mistake. It was too painful then and it's too painful now.





 

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Peach Head



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 11:11 PM
Wow, dougrhon - all i can say is it takes every bit of my might to be civil about this insane war - it's just not in me to drink the kool-aid - and at the risk of going back to 9/11 - correct me if i'm wrong - but I do not believe that it was ever discovered or reported that any of the terrorist involved in 9/11 were from Iraq - I believe they were all Saudis and one or two Egyptians, etc.

Ann, beats me about the "widows tax" - we're all learning DAILY about more and more unconscionable matters associated with this "war" and Bush Administration.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 11:16 PM
quote:
I urge you to join Wes Clark's effort to investigate the Bush Administration's appalling disregard for the welfare & safety of American troops in Iraq.

An internal government report recently obtained by the NY Times & published in an article this past weekend confirms "80 percent of the Marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to the upper body could have survived if they had had extra body armor." The Times report continued, noting that "such armor has been available since 2003," but the Pentagon declined to supply it to the troops despite "calls from the field for additional protection." This is unconscionable. This is incompetent.

I just co-signed General Wes Clark's letter to Senate Armed Services . . . urging a full
investigation - Congress needs to act now - demand body armor for our troops in Iraq.
You, too, can sign up:

http://ga4.org/campaign/bodyarmor?rk=zp_J19s1qmy5W


I just signed the petition and sent it to friends.
Thanks for posting the address.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/6/2007 at 11:22 PM
quote:
I will continue to report the statistics.....as I've said before the numbers represent people who have made a sacrifice, both American and Iraqi. You want to report the stories of heroism, I'll be proud to read them. Some posting here have already done so. But I want you to read 'the numbers'.

Do I think of the consequences of leaving Iraq? Yes...but I was also aware of the consequences of our leaving Vietnam....and yet today, they're doing well without our occupation of their country. The Middle East has centuries of history that we in the United States don't understand.....nor have any of our previous attempts to help settle their differences lasted. This was been doomed before it started.

We should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. Thousands of innocent Iraqis have died because we did. (Now is the time to trot out what a terrible man Sadaam was and how much better off they are for him being gone....sorry, that doesn't fly.) The United States helped create that monster. We should have withdrawn support immediately and given some of it to the factions in the best position to overthrow his regime.

This country was led down the path by lies from this administration and a congress without guts to say no. It was obvious from the beginning Afghanistan was only the door into Iraq and I've never said we shouldn't have gone into Afghanistan....but going into Iraq was and is a mistake. So we leave. What happens? The people fight it out themseves....like they did in Vietnam.....and they settle their differences in the context of their history.

The reason so many people don't want us out of this war is because they don't want to 'lose'. Looking objectively at a situation and realizing that it is time to withdraw isn't losing.....it's called making a wise decision. As once said.....who wants to be the last man to die for a mistake? I knew one of the last ones to die for the Vietnam mistake. I don't want to know one of the last ones to die from this mistake. It was too painful then and it's too painful now.








That's a thoughtful response. I disagree with much of what you say and most of your basic premises. But I will only respond to one thing: You say in Vietnam we left to let them fight it out. Actually we abandoned an ally (I mean the logisitical and monetary aid that was cut off not actually fighting for them) while Moscow and Beijing continued to support the North, thereby making it impossible for the South to survive. But more importantly, our abandonment not only led to hundreds of thousands of refugees in Vietnam but also to the genocide in Cambodia where millions died inthe killing fields. You can argue that Vietnam was not worth one American life and I might even agree with you. But don't pretend our abandonment of South Vietnam was without serious consequence.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 3/7/2007 at 12:20 AM
quote:
I may be a number of things....sarcastic, rude, adamant and at times ironic....but I don't deal in just silly.





 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/7/2007 at 12:37 AM
You say in Vietnam we left to let them fight it out. Actually we abandoned an ally (I mean the logisitical and monetary aid that was cut off not actually fighting for them) while Moscow and Beijing continued to support the North, thereby making it impossible for the South to survive. But more importantly, our abandonment not only led to hundreds of thousands of refugees in Vietnam but also to the genocide in Cambodia where millions died inthe killing fields. You can argue that Vietnam was not worth one American life and I might even agree with you. But don't pretend our abandonment of South Vietnam was without serious consequence.

I said I was aware of the consequences, but my point was, they fought it out and made their own peace...whatever it was.....without our being there. And who's to say Cambodia and the fall of South Vietnam wouldn't have happened if we'd never fought over there to begin with? And I agree that Vietnam was not worth a single life lost from our involvement. Yesterday's enemy is today's friend....that being the case, why were they ever our enemy? (That's a rhetorical question...yes, I know the dynamics of the Vietnam war.)

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/7/2007 at 12:37 AM
quote:
quote:
I may be a number of things....sarcastic, rude, adamant and at times ironic....but I don't deal in just silly.








I should have said Vaylorette folder excluded!!!

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 3/7/2007 at 09:07 AM
Thanks for the body armour petition link!

 

____________________
Otie for sainthood...St. Odious!


 

Peach Head



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  posted on 3/7/2007 at 09:42 AM
Yes, RedRider - maybe we can all jump on this one quick bandwagon & start a movement . . .

"Do not take lightly small good deeds,
Believing they can hardly help,
For drops of water, one by one,
In time can fill a giant pot."

patrul rinpoche quoted by joseph goldstein

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/7/2007 at 09:57 AM
quote:
No one I have encountered on this board who opposes the war has given me any reason to believe your views are based on anything more than a reflexive distaste for war and a dislike of Bush in particular.


I know at least speaking for myself, Ive posted many sources that show we were lied to and misled about this war. Even Powell regrets his actions at the UN. Again, speaking for myself, I tend to dislike the man most responsible for getting so many thousands killed and putting America at greater risk while failing to accomplish anything of note after lying to get us where we are today. I think thats a good enough reason to dislike Bush. I should ask what it would take one of his supporters to feel dislike for the man.

quote:
Distaste for war is a great thing and something we all have. (Whether you believe it or not) But the anti-war folks have yet to give me any reason to believe they understand the consequences of cutting and running.


Why are you using a wholly conservative-created talking point if you arent parroting their POV? (emphasis added by me). I respect that you think you are being independent in all this, but the term "cut and run" was coservative in origin so Im not sure why you are using it. Its designed to make any withdrawl appear to be a cowardly act as opposed to keeping our men and women in that meat grinder for no real purpose. The mission in which they were sent to accomplish was a farce and their were never re-directed to a goal that would stabilize Iraq or get us out with the least loss of life. We are all dressed up with no place to go.

quote:
While I do not know what you folks are thinking, as you rightly point out, it seems that you believe there will be no negative consequence to our leaving Iraq right now.


And you guys dont seem to see that its been nothing but negative consequences for us in staying. Some of you seem to think that victory is just around the corner if we just hang in there but yet nobody can define what victory is and we have turned so many corners that we are going in circles.

quote:
You act as if this is nothing more than a lark or plot of the Bush administration to waste lives.


So far, thats whats been going on. Bush was told by many people much smarter than him not to go into Iraq (not the least of which was his dad), but here we are. I dont believe they care one iota about anyone thats died over there. The way Pat Tillmans death was ebellished for political gain was horrible (when the truth came out, who apologized for what they did?). Then there was the issue with the staged POW rescue of Jessica Lynch just to name a couple of things. The soldiers are tools for political gain and they arent the least bit shameful in how they use them.

quote:
Except for Squatchtexas who doesn't believe there is any jihadist threat to us or at least that it is greatly exagerated (I apologize if I mischaracterized your position Squatch) None of you seem to have come to grips with what leaving Iraq right now would mean.


As Ive said before numerous times, I believe the threat to us here has been greatly exaggerated. I do not trust this administration to "shoot straight" with us as they have pissed on our leg in the past and told us its raining. If you want to buy their line this time, go ahead, but if the threat was as pronounced as they say, we would be seeing the threat materialize on our own city streets. Im more at risk from a street gang than I am a radical islamist. Leaving Iraq would mean that no more of our soldiers will die there for no reason. Those groups are going to continue to kill each other whether we are there or not and regardless of the direction we ultimately go, THEY are the ONLY ONES who can determine the course of their own nation. They have already shown they have no interest in Democracy and we have already polluted that process anyway when we bullied the actual elected leader into stepping down and replaced him with someone we approved of. Some people see it as a bad idea for us to meddle in the politics of other nations. Personally, I wish we would spend as much time worrying about our own country as we do others.

quote:
It's something to think about. I don't think I am revising what others have said. Please correct me where I have done so. It is not my intention to do so. I, frankly think the ability to have a civil discussion is vital to our national well-being. Certainly both sides are guilty of moving the discussion beyond policy and into the personal. I happen to support the war effort so I notice it more from the war opponents. But you guys who oppose the war don't seem to notice it when your side does so.


Oh I notice it, but I see it so much more from the pro-war crowd like Hannity, Coulter, Limbaugh etc. Much of it is distortions, lies and innuendo. I think a lot of that is simply a desire to avoid having to admit they were wrong in a lot of ways. Nobody likes to eat crow or say they were wrong.

quote:
I am fully willing to admit that both sides need to be civil. Those of us who support the war are aware of the casualties. I wonder if those who oppose the war are aware of the good that has come, even with all the bad. It is certainly out there.


Like what?

quote:
Much of Iraq is infinitely better off than it was under Hussein.


According to a lot of Iraqis, this isnt true. Civil war, electricity shortages, water shortages etc. were not a problem under Saddam. This isnt to defend Saddam as he was a turd of the 1st order, but these are specific examples where the Iraqi people have made statements regarding life now vs. then.

quote:
There is tremendous civil strife but many societies have that and eventually overcome it. Our own society did. I believe that it is our job to try to hand off to the new Iraqi government, the ability to fight the strife. I do not believe the tactics used over the last three years have been effective and I blame the administration for that.


Another frustrating reason to dislike Bush. When a plan fails, most smart people try a new plan. Stay the course was preferred.

quote:
I believe a new tactic is being used now and it has a decent chance at success.


Why do you say this? The General that literally wrote the book on counterinsurgency tactics (General Prateous) said that this "surge" will likely fail because its not enough men when you factor in downtime, rotations and other variables.

quote:
The best way to save lives, American and Iraqi, is to support the effort to bring the war to a successful conclusion.


That means bringing them home. There is no defined "end" to this war. There is no measure of when we have won. The concept of victory has yet to be defined. These are very basic things that need to happen before we can declare the war won.

quote:
General Patreus was confirmed by the entire Senate. This is what he wants to do. Why not give it a chance?


Someone should ask him why his actions are contradicting what his own teachings have said. This tells me that either he is afraid to speak his mind for fear of being "retired" or he doesnt have enough faith in his own experiences and believes that this time, this solution might work.

quote:
Let's discuss this civilly. As for minimizing good news, while you may not have said it, there is no doubt in my mind that, for a variety of reasons, it is being done. The biggest reason may be simply because its more interesting to report a glossy disaster than a somewhat boring positive trend.


Everyone likes good news and it would seem to me that as bad as things are going that good news would be welcome. The only reason Ive ever heard as to why we arent hearing the good news is that the media is "liburul" which IMO, is BS. FOX certainly isnt liberal so why isnt there the Iraqi Good News Hour every day? Wishing for something doesnt make it so and I think the amount of bad news in Iraq is far greater than any small amount of good news.

quote:
But I do believe much of the mainstream media is lazy (not liberal, lazy) and that they fit their reporting into a pre-existing mold. Right now the mold is, war lost, lives wasted. Unless something pretty dramatic happens, they are not going to change the mold.


Well, I agree with you that they are lazy, but we probably disagree in how they are lazy. I believe they were lazy throughout all the runup to this war. They never questioned this administration, they never investigated anything and when admissions were made and the truth was drug out into the light, they werent around to make it known to the general public. Hell, we still have a large group of Americans that believe Saddam was responsible for 9/11 and this is specifically because our media hasnt done their job and STILL arent doing their jobs. Look at the Walter Reed mess. More attention was paid to Anna Nicole Smith still being dead than what was going on at Walter Reed. It took Democrats to hold hearings on why thats a mess.

quote:
There are ways to acknowledge, honor, and remember the casualties while still supporting the effort to win. I certainly do not believe they should be supressed. I am sorry if I gave that impression. One way to honor the soldiers is to play up the many instances of heroism. In order to do that, we need to examine the individual stories, not simply report statistics.


Well, this administration is a poor choice for cheerleader. Pat Tillmans family would attest to that I think.

 

____________________
Missing- 245 spines. If found, please send one to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave and the rest to the Capitol building care of the Democratic Party.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/7/2007 at 12:34 PM
March deaths - 22
February deaths - 84
January deaths - 86
Total dead - 3,185

February '07 - 50
January '07 - 631
Total wounded - 33, 814

March Iraqi civilian deaths - 376
February Iraqi civilian deaths - 1,531
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802
Total Iraqi civilian deaths in past 14 months - 22,676

Mission Accomplished day 1,421



 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 
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