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Author: Subject: Uncredited Duane session? MP3 file available. Your comments ...

Extreme Peach





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  posted on 2/22/2006 at 02:42 PM
In other threads in this forum it has been mentioned that Duane Allman may be the uncredited slide guitarist on the song "More Than Enough Rain" by Bobby Lance. On the album First Peace the slide playing is credited to Eddie Hinton. Thanks to Stuart Krause, the writer of the original article about Duane's studio sessions that appeared in Discoveries magazine, and the blessing of Bobby Lance, I have received a copy of the song. Bobby, Stuart and myself would like to make this available to anyone who would like to hear it. An mp3 file has been created for distribution. If you are interested I would need an e-mail address as the file cannot not be attached to a PM. A little Lana bird has told me that this track will also get a purusal by the band. All of us would appreciate your comments here about the song and whether you believe it is actually Duane. King Curtis does the sax solo.

BTW, there is a certain hard core of Duane fanatics who will not need to contact me. For these folks, just check your user profile e-mail address today(if it allows transmission of a 5.5 MB file).

Happy listening to all and please put your comments/opinions/votes here.

 

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  posted on 2/22/2006 at 06:41 PM
Thanks for putting this together dzobo. Unfortunately, it is my opinion that this is not Duane Allman playing slide guitar. I certainly encourage everyone to listen to it and discuss it. If anyone has a different opinion, I'll be glad to be more specific, but as the father of my friend from Anniston AL was heard to say, "I'll argue with you . . . but you're wrong"

 

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  posted on 2/22/2006 at 06:43 PM
Many thanks for the track. I would like to venture a couple of options. Probably Hinton. But, possibility of both of them on the same track, starting around 3:20 or so, it seems like a different player. In fact it reminds me of the Barry Goldberg track that Duane may have been on, give or take a witness---some claim that is Mike Bloomfield.

Overall, however, for that late in his career not certain that Duane would have played such a rudimentary slide. Always possible, but does anyone know when Hinton began to play slide?

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Carlos "can one ever know for certain?" Rivera

 

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  posted on 2/22/2006 at 07:24 PM
quote:
In fact it reminds me of the Barry Goldberg track that Duane may have been on, give or take a witness---some claim that is Mike Bloomfield.


Carlos, are you referring to "Twice a Man" from the Two Jew Blues album or another track? "Twice a Man" is identified in the album credits as being Duane's slide contribution.

 

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  posted on 2/22/2006 at 10:07 PM
Yep, and I have been wondering about that since Bloomfield apparently played slide on "It hurts me too."

Have you had much off-list feedback? I think the consensus, if in error, is that it is not Duane.

Cheers and thanks

Carlos

 

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  posted on 2/22/2006 at 10:21 PM
The "off-listers" are trickling in. On a first listen the few that have contacted me believe it is Duane. There's some big guns yet to be heard from.

 

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  posted on 2/22/2006 at 10:58 PM
I'm about 90% sure it's Duane. It sounds a bit restrained (he may not have been very enthusiastic about the gig, given his well-known thoughts about session work), but the "voice", phrasing, intonation, etc. make me think of Duane and nobody else.

More to follow.

Billastro

 

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  posted on 2/22/2006 at 11:18 PM
I was asked to ask if anyone knows where and/or when this may have been recorded?

 

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  posted on 2/23/2006 at 12:50 AM
As exerpted from Stuart Krause's original article about Duane's recording sessions:

quote:
In my never-ending search for “lost” Duane Allman recordings. I stumbled upon a copy of First Peace by Bobby Lance. The album was released in 1971 on Cotillion Records, recorded at Muscle Shoals Sound, and touts among its musicians Hinton, Hood, Hawkins, and Beckett with guest appearances by King Curtis and The Sweet Inspirations. One cut, “More than Enough Rain,” stands head and shoulders above the rest, with a blistering electric slide solo that is very much in the style of Duane Allman, quite possibly Duane himself. On the album jacket the slide guitar is credited to Eddie Hinton, but I tracked Lance in New York City to verify. Lance said he has often been asked this question and has been unable to either confirm or deny the rumors. Lance went down to Criteria to overdub vocals to the rhythm tracks, using the same studio in the morning that The Dominos were using later in the day for Layla. Though Lance had been producing his own album, engineer Dowd offered to remix a couple of songs with which he was not altogether satisfied. According to Lance, Dowd most likely took advantage of Duane’s availability and could easily have overdubbed Duane on guitar to create the brilliant interplay between Curtis’ sax solos and the searing slide solos. Lance left Miami after recording his vocal parts and left Dowd in charge of the remix. Lance’s relationship with Atlantic deteriorated soon after. After one more album, Lance left Atlantic and the recording business, disillusioned by the company’s lack luster promotion of his albums due to the preexisting contractual agreements he had with Motown as a songwriter. However, he considers the two Atlantic albums “the best damn albums you’ve never heard” and enthusiastically recalls sharing a hotel, among other things, with Clapton and Allman, late in the summer of 1970.

 

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  posted on 2/23/2006 at 09:14 AM
Alright. Here are some "notes" that may or may not help with this...Hawkins that I speak of here is Ronnie, not Roger who is on the Bobby Lance album we are talking about. I am just trying to make a note here of Duane forgetting what he recorded or that there are other albums and songs in question.

September 1969- Ronnie Hawkins recording sessions at the Muscle Shoals Sound Studios.

December 1969- John Lennon, while visiting Ronnie Hawkins in Canada, records a radio spot to promote Ronnie's single 'Down In The Alley / Matchbox'. Ronnie calls Duane who can't remember he played on these songs. SOURCE- Liner notes of the CD: 'The Best Of Ronnie Hawkins And The Hawks'

1970
Ronnie Hawkins
Original release:
LP: Cotillion SD 9019 (1970)

Other releases:
LP: Hawk (Canada) SD 9019 (1970)
LP: Atlantic (UK) 2400-009 (1970)

1. One More Night
2. Bitter Green
3. I May Never Get To Heaven
4. Will The Circle Be Unbroken
5. Matchbox
6. Little Bird
7. One Too Many Mornings
8. Forty Days
9. Down In The Alley
10. Who Do You Love
11. Home From The Forest

Duane Allman plays on tracks 1, 5, 8, 9 & 10.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

45 rpm single releases:
Down In The Alley / Matchbox (Cotillion 44060, January 1970). Duane Allman plays on both tracks.

Bitter Green / Forty Days (Cotillion 44067, 1970). Duane Allman plays on 'Forty Days'.

Little Bird / One More Night (Cotillion 44076, 1971). Duane Allman plays on 'One More Night'.


Now I am reminded once again of this Clarence Carter album which I NEED to find, because there are some for sure tracks Duane played on and some that are still in question. Here are those details...

CLARENCE CARTER:
The Dynamic Clarence Carter



Original release: April 1969
LP: Atlantic SD-33-8199 (1969)

Other releases:
CD: Sequel Records RSA CD 904 (1996)

1. I'd Rather Go Blind
2. Think About It
3. The Road Of Love
4. You've Been A Long Time Comin'
5. Light My Fire
6. That Old Time Feeling
7. Steal Away
8. Let Me Comfort You
9. Look What I Got
10. Too Weak To Fight
11. Harper Valley PTA
12. Weekend Love

Bonus tracks (on CD only):
13. Don't Make My Baby Cry
14. Take It Off Him (And Put It On Me)
15. The Few Troubles I've Had

Duane Allman plays on tracks 3 & 5 and is suspected to play on tracks 2, 7, 9, 11 & 12, but this has not been confirmed yet.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----

45 rpm single releases:
Too Weak To Fight (mono) / Too Weak To Fight (stereo) (Atlantic SD-45-2569, 1968) (Duane Allman does not play on these tracks)

Too Weak To Fight / Let Me Comfort You (Atlantic SD-45-2569, October 1968) (Duane Allman does not play on these tracks)

Back Door Santa / That Old Time Feeling (Atlantic SD-45-2576, November 25, 1968) (Duane Allman does not play on these tracks)

The Road Of Love / Steal Away (Atlantic 41220, 1969) (Duane Allman plays on 'The Road Of Love' only)

Steal Away / Look What I Got (Atlantic 41221, 1969) (Duane Allman is suspected to play on 'Look What I Got', but this has not been confirmed yet)

Look What I Got / I'd Rather Go Blind (Atlantic 41222, 1969) (Duane Allman is suspected to play on 'Look What I Got', but this has not been confirmed yet)

I'd Rather Go Blind / The Road Of Love (Atlantic 41223, 1969) (Duane Allman plays on 'The Road Of Love' only)


So as I listen, there is the Duane sound on that song, and it is very possible it could be a lost track.

I will add on here later.





 

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  posted on 2/23/2006 at 09:53 AM
... and another thing I thought of, what guitar was he playing? That could account for some of the sound difference.

I will throw this out there too from the "notes"...

September 16, 1970: In Daytona Beach, FL Duane trades his 1957 Gibson Les Paul Goldtop for a plain-top 1958/59 cherry sunburst Gibson Les Paul. The PAF humbuckers are transferred from the Goldtop to the sunburst Gibson Les Paul.

 

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  posted on 2/23/2006 at 12:03 PM
I agree with whoever said this is too rudimentary to be Duane. Sounds like someone who is heavily influenced by Duane, as Hinton was...I also agree that toward the end it gets confusing and does have some 'Duane' flair. I do not hear the phrasing and tone of Duane for the most part though...

 

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  posted on 2/23/2006 at 12:25 PM
When we were trying to get this track ready I asked Stuart Krause if there might have been other tracks on First Peace that included slide work. As these would likely be Eddie Hinton then at least we'd know that Hinton did play slide at that time and have a sample of his style. Here is Stuart's reply:

quote:
Re: Any Hinton on slide

Don, as far as Eddie on slide, he did play it. I think that Duane taught him. However, he never went close to the performance captured on the Bobby Lance album and no, I can't recall any other songs on that album where he does any slide. I will have to listen to the whole thing again, but believe me, if there are any slide licks on it, they are negligable in comparison. I do believe, however, if you want to hear Eddie;s slide playing, listen to the Cher album, which some believe is Duane playing. I don't think so. Very simple slide, but clearly audible. "More than Enough Rain" could not possibly be Eddie Hinton, as great a musician as he was.
Stuart

If this is Duane I agree that it is a bit restrained but I think part of that is that there is no real solo, just mostly fills, accents & flourishes. I get the sense that Duane was at the studio waiting for the Dominos session and Dowd mentions that he has this track that he'd like to spice up a bit. So Duane puts in his overdubs.

As I listen to this track all my Duane neurons light up. I'm almost certain it is him. I recommend a listen with headphones. The slide is just so tasty and supportive in so many places. Whoever is playing it is really tuned in even if there is no solo opportunity. Yes for Duane this would be restrained but it is clearly focussed and committed.

[Edited on 2/23/2006 by dzobo]

 

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  posted on 2/23/2006 at 07:50 PM
First of all, thank you so much for sharing this source, Don.
Honestly speaking, I feel it is so hard to say whether this slide play was done by Duane.
Some of the parts are very close to Duane, but somes are not.
If this was played by Duane, recording date was limited to 1969 to early of 1970.
Also used guitar was not Gibson, I think it was Fender Stratocaster. This is not big problem, because he used Fender when he had spent his days at Muscle Shoals.
By two points, however, it's so sorry but I can't beleive this slide play was done by him.

1. Some notes are not stable (flated?).
2. If you carefully hear first attack of some notes, it is very strong and was played by using pick, not finger play. Just as you know, Duane didn't use pick when he played slide.

This is only my opinion and I hope this is wrong.


 

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  posted on 2/24/2006 at 03:51 AM
Don . . . thanks very much for sending this sound clip to me . . . it was a pleasure to listen to it.

The slide play certainly bears a great resemblence to the style of Duane . . . but unfortunately I have to agree with most of the above in that I don't think it is Duane.

There was just something that I couldn't put my finger on that was telling me that it wasn't Duane . . . then Masahiko nailed it . . . it is the use of a pick.

Like Masahiko said . . . I would be happy to be proven wrong in my thoughts . . . these are of course just opinions . . . unfortunately with dear Tom Dowd now departed the best person to ask is no longer available. Perhaps someone (Pam?) could get Derek to ask EC if he remembers anything about such sessions ?

 

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  posted on 2/24/2006 at 08:20 AM
Sista Moon Beam wrote"
"Now I am reminded once again of this Clarence Carter album which I NEED to find, because there are some for sure tracks Duane played on and some that are still in question. Here are those details..."

Pam---I have the lp but not sure it ever made it to cd....and as we all know, it falls into public domain 99 years after it's release date....hmmmmmmm, April 2068. If you want, I can help you out then, or,.......

Cheers

Carlos "never let it be said that sharing is always a bad thing" Rivera

 

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  posted on 2/24/2006 at 09:47 AM
Carlos, you better get that out and give it a spin on the record player! Just listen to it and let us know what you think about the other tracks on it. I brought this up from the back of my mind not only to drive myself nuts again, but hoping someone out there who has this song in question, could listen to the other songs in question in comparison.

Harvey that is a thought, I am also wondering if the engineer for the First Peace album is still out there somewhere being Jimmy Douglas.

 

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  posted on 2/24/2006 at 11:18 AM
Well, Pam, I will try and do that. I got the thing about 30 years ago, and did give it the old ear test. I think that Hans at the ABB site in Holland has more info on that lp. Will check it later.

Cheers

Carlos "how is your budding RnR star doing with the guitar? Rivera

 

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  posted on 2/24/2006 at 12:49 PM
quote:
I am also wondering if the engineer for the First Peace album is still out there somewhere being Jimmy Douglas.

I checked into the next best thing. Chuck Kirkpatrick was an assitant engineer at Criteria and is credited on the Layla sessions. He says he was probably at this session but after 35 years has little recall of any specifics. He also remembers Eddie Hinton. Chuck can't recall seeing him play any slide but he can't guarantee that Hinton didn't.

 

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  posted on 2/24/2006 at 01:50 PM
Eddie Hinton's parents come to all the CRS shows here, I'm not sure if they'll be at the Macon show next month, they may be able to shed some light. Johnny Sandlin would probably know for sure.
 
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  posted on 2/24/2006 at 05:03 PM
And this from Donnah

quote:
I don't think it is, Don. That slide didn't make me want to wade across an alligator-infested swamp to get to it.

I'll add, however, that my true area of expertise is Duane's shirts.

 

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  posted on 2/24/2006 at 10:50 PM
Excellent debate. I could never say that I was 100% sure it was Duane, but had to include it in the Discoveries article nontheless. I did speak to Jimmy Evans who engineered the Muscle Shoals sessions, but he obviously didn't know about any overdubs that were done at Criteria. He never went down there. Only Bobby went down, to have Dowd oversee the vocal parts. Everything else was done at Muscle Shoals, except the Sweet Inspirations vocals, done in New York (and maybe King Curtis's sax, I can't recall). Dowd wanted to overdub some guitar over Hinton's guitar parts on a couple of tracks, Lance says, so he gave him permission to tweak it. Lance was producing the album himself, but who would refuse Tom Dowd, right? Bobby says he recorded his vocals and left, but Dowd told him he was going to ask Duane to do the overdubs. Eddie Hinton wasn't there, but the guitar at the end of the song sounds to me like it could be some final licks that Hinton had laid down that were left intact intentionally. Bobby never saw the session himself. People had always asked him over the years if it was Duane. Bobby hung out with Duane and Eric a bit for several days, but still can't give me a definitive answer to the question. I don't know who else beside Dowd was there to witness any overdubs. I guess the real question is this...........If it isn't Duane, then who is it? Who else came even close to playing slide like that at that time and place?
Stuart

 

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  posted on 3/4/2006 at 04:55 PM
This from bigann in the "Eddie Hinton Documentary Movie" thread in the Anything Goes forum:
quote:
It was asked if Eddie played slide on anything. I had to wait until my 'source' returned home to ask. In answer to the question, Johnny said he doesn't remember Eddie playing slide....he's not saying he never did, but it isn't something he was known for nor does Johnny remember anything he might haev played slide on. I hope that helps. If anyone else knows different, I'd be interested in knowing too!

I'm pretty sure Johnny is Johnny Sandlin who knew both Duane and Eddie well.

I think this rules out Eddie Hinton as the slide guitarist on "More Than Enough Rain".

There are a lot of folks very familiar with Duane's work who have heard the track and still haven't commented including Captskipper, ClayPelland, Hophead, Kirk West and members of the band.

If it is not Duane any guesses about another slide guitarist who would show up occassionally in Muscle Shoals and/or Miami Criteria studios in late summer/early fall of 1970?

 

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  posted on 3/5/2006 at 04:42 PM
My gut says no. When it first started playing I thought it was Duane...but the more the song progressed I wasn't so sure. On subsequent listens I'm pretty sure it's not, but I definitely can't say it isn't Duane. Just IMHO.

Thank you for sending it Don.



Pam, if you are still looking for that Clarence Carter, it is on CD. Lotsa copies on Half.com as part of a 2 LP's on 1 CD set.

http://product.half.ebay.com/Patches-Dynamic-Clarence-Carter_W0QQtgZinfoQQp rZ3405561



Patches/Dynamic Clarence Carter (CD, 2000)

Primary Artist: Clarence Carter

Format: CD

Jun 2000
Record Label: Collectables
Recording Type: Studio

UPC: 090431641620

Track Listing
1. Willie And Laura Mae Jones
2. Say Man
3. I'm Just A Prisoner (Of Your Good Lovin')
4. Let It Be
5. I Can't Leave Your Love Alone
6. Your Love Lifted Me
7. Till I Can't Take It Anymore
8. Patches
9. It's All In Your Mind
10. Changes
11. C.C. Blues
12. Getting The Bills (But No Merchandise)
13. I'd Rather Go Blind
14. Think About It
15. Road Of Love, The
16. You've Been A Long Time Comin'
17. Light My Fire
18. That Old Time Feeling
19. Steal Away
20. Let Me Comfort You
21. Look What I Got
22. Too Weak To Fight
23. Harper Valley P. T. A.
24. Weekend Love

Details
Contributing artists: Duane Allman
Producer: Rick Hall
Distributor: Bayside Record Dist.
Recording Type: Studio
Recording Mode: Stereo
SPAR Code: n/a

Album Notes
2 LPs on 1 CD: PATCHES (1970)/DYNAMIC CLARENCE CARTER (1969).

PATCHES:
Personnel: Clarence Carter (vocals, guitar); Travis Wammack, Albert Lowe, Jr. (guitar); Aaron Varnell, Harvey Thompson (tenor saxophone); Ronnie Eades (baritone saxophone); Harrison Calloway, Jr., Jack Peck (trumpet); Clayton Ivey (keyboards); Bob Wray, Jack Masters (bass); Fred Pouty, Cornell McFadden (drums); Donna Rhodes, Charles Chalmers, Sandy Rhodes (background vocals).
Originally released on Atlantic (8267). Includes liner notes by Mark Marymont.

DYNAMIC CLARENCE CARTER:
Personnel: Clarence Carter (vocals, guitar); James Johnson, Albert Lowe, Duane Allman (guitar) ; Aaron Varnell, Joe Arnold (tenor saxophone); James Mitchell, Floyd Newman (baritone saxophone); Gene Miller (trumpet); Barry Beckett (piano); Marvell Thomas (organ); Roger Hakins (drums); Alvin Willford, James Price, Cabwhiss Grandberry (background vocals).
Originally released on Atlantic (8199). Includes liner notes by Ted Williams.

 

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  posted on 3/5/2006 at 11:50 PM
I'm certain this is not Duane........

 

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