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Author: Subject: What part of "Torture is wrong" does Bush not get?

Zen Peach





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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 07:11 AM
I think if anyone knows torture, its McCain. While I have no political respect for the man, I respect him deeply for his service to our nation.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/06/senate.detainees/index.html

Senate ignores veto threat in limiting detainee treatment
Measure added to Pentagon spending bill

Thursday, October 6, 2005; Posted: 3:17 a.m. EDT (07:17 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Setting up a possible veto showdown with the White House, the Senate voted overwhelmingly for an amendment to a Pentagon spending bill that sets standards for the treatment of prisoners in U.S. military custody.

The measure, sponsored by Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, would require American troops to follow interrogation standards set in the Army Field Manual and bar "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" of prisoners in U.S. custody.

On Wednesday night, senators voted 90-9 to include the provision to the $440 billion Defense Department spending bill now wending its way through Congress.

Earlier, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said President Bush would likely veto the defense spending bill if McCain's language were included, calling the amendment "unnecessary and duplicative."

"If it's presented, then there would be a recommendation of a veto, I believe," McClellan said.

McClellan said existing law already prohibits the mistreatment of prisoners in American custody, and the amendment "would limit the president's ability as commander-in-chief to effectively carry out the war on terrorism."

If Bush does veto the bill, it would be his first veto during nearly five years in office.

Arguing for his amendment, McCain, a former Navy pilot who spent more than five years in a North Vietnamese prison camp, said "our troops are not served by ambiguity."

"We demanded intelligence without ever clearly telling our troops what was permitted and what was forbidden. And then, when things went wrong, we blamed them and we punished them. We have to do better than that," he said.

McCain said an officer in the 82nd Airborne Division, Capt. Ian Fishback, urged his office to push for clear guidelines for the treatment of prisoners after unsuccessfully attempting to get answers from his superiors for 17 months.

McCain, a former GOP presidential contender, said he was willing to consider "technical changes" in the amendment -- "as long as those changes are technical, truly." He warned that his proposal could be removed when senators and House members try to reconcile their versions of the defense bill, and urged supporters to keep up the pressure on lawmakers.

"The image of the United States was very badly harmed by the pictures of prisoner abuse. We have to send a message to the world that we will not ever allow such kind of treatment to be repeated," he said.

In a letter to McCain, published last week in The Washington Post, Fishback stated that he and troops under his command witnessed "death threats, beatings, broken bones, murder, exposure to elements, extreme forced physical exertion, hostage-taking, stripping, sleep deprivation and degrading treatment" of prisoners in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Allegations that Americans have tortured prisoners have dogged the Bush administration since April 2004, when graphic photographs of Army reservists mistreating prisoners at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad became public. Nine low-ranking soldiers were convicted or pleaded guilty in the Abu Ghraib scandal and their commander was demoted, but Pentagon investigators cleared higher-ranking officers of any wrongdoing.

McCain said Wednesday that intelligence is needed to fight terrorism, but "the intelligence we collect must be reliable and acquired humanely, under clear standards understood by all our fighting men and women." Torturing prisoners not only yields unreliable answers, but also endangers captured U.S. troops and allows "the cruel actions of a few to darken the reputation of our country in the eyes of millions," he said.

"The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don't deserve our sympathy," he said. "But this isn't about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies."

He bristled at remarks by his Republican colleague, Sen. Jeff Sessions of Alabama, questioning Fishback's account. Sessions also called it "sort of odd" that Fishback refused to disclose the names of sergeants in his unit who reported similar conduct.

"Captain Fishback is a noble, brave young American," McCain said. "He does not deserve to be disparaged on the floor of this Senate by any senator, and the senator from Alabama owes him an abject and deep apology."

Sessions said the McCain amendment was unnecessary, since those responsible for the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib "are being held to account." He said he did not believe he questioned Fishback's integrity, and he said senators who questioned whether abuses were sanctioned by top officers or the Pentagon should consider an apology.

"To suggest to the world that we have as systemic pattern of abuse in the military is not true," he said.

 
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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 08:27 AM
Yeah, it was also wrong of us to behead their civilians on videotape and put the footage on the internet for everyone, including the families of the victims to see. Oh, wait a minute ... that wasn't us! I could be wrong, but I don't think I've heard Amnesty International come down on that activity yet.

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 09:33 AM
quote:
Yeah, it was also wrong of us to behead their civilians on videotape and put the footage on the internet for everyone, including the families of the victims to see.


So, youre saying that we shouldnt be any better than those we oppose? I dont know about you, but I expect all of our soldiers to be professional and representative of the values of the United States. Is there a particular reason why you feel that they should be entitled to torture and kill people "because the other guys did it"?

quote:
Oh, wait a minute ... that wasn't us! I could be wrong, but I don't think I've heard Amnesty International come down on that activity yet.


Yep, youre wrong. Maybe you should do some research as opposed to letting Rush do your thinking for you?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140212004?open&of=ENG-IRQ

Iraq: Beheading of civilian condemned, hostages must be released

Amnesty International condemns in the strongest terms the abduction and beheading of an American civilian by an armed group, Muntada al-Ansar, in Iraq - a video of which was released yesterday. The organization is appalled by the public display of the victim's execution by the group.

The killing of prisoners is one of the most serious crimes under international law. It is a war crime, and if part of a deliberate and systematic attack against a civilian population, it would also constitute a crime against humanity.

"Such acts are unjustifiable under any circumstances and constitute a serious crime under international law. Those responsible should be brought to justice in line with international standards," said Amnesty International.

"Armed groups must release immediately and without any precondition all hostages, and should refrain from deliberately attacking, abducting and killing civilians."

Political and community leaders in Iraq should exercise their influence to ensure an end to the taking and killing of hostages.

A video posted on a website yesterday supposedly showed 26-year-old Nick Berg, an American businessman, being beheaded by the group. The group said his death was revenge for the ill-treatment of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers in Iraq.

Hundreds of civilians, Iraqis and foreigners, have been deliberately killed by armed groups or individuals in Iraq.

Amnesty International is further concerned that footage surrounding the execution was shown on web sites and on television.

Amnesty International believes that the cycle of violence in Iraq will only be broken if all parties fully respect international human rights standards.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA110112004?open&of=ENG-AFG

Afghanistan: Amnesty International condemns the reported beheading of Taleban prisoners

Amnesty International today condemned the reported extrajudicial beheading of Taleban prisoners by government soldiers in southern Afghanistan this week. The organization stated it was appalled at the grotesque and retaliatory nature of the incident which reportedly occurred during "anti-Taleban" military activities in southern Afghanistan.

"Beheadings are unjustifiable under any circumstances" said Amnesty International.

Amnesty International urges the Afghan government to initiate a full investigation into the killings. Those responsible for committing the unlawful killings must be brought to justice in trials that are consistent with international standards. The results of the investigations should be made public.

The Afghan government must take immediate action to ensure that the right to life is respected and protected. Amnesty International also appeals to foreign governments, in their contacts with the Afghan government, to stress the necessity to guarantee respect for human rights at all times and to carry out thorough investigations into the killings.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140562004?open&of=ENG-IRQ

Insurgents are also reported to have violated rules of internaitonal humanitarian law. In one incident, some Iraqis are reported to have come out of a building waving a white flag. When a Marine approached this group, insurgents opened fire on the Marines from different directions. A US military official in Iraq also accused insurgents of storing weapons in mosques and schools. Insurgents were reported as firing from a mosque on 10 November.

All violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law must be investigated and those responsible for unlawful attacks, including deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, and the killing of injured persons must be brought to justice.


And

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140572004?open&of=ENG-IRQ

Insurgents are also reported to have violated rules of international humanitarian law: "Commanders and fighters of armed groups in Falluja also have an obligation to respect fundamental rules of international law. Acts such as booby trapping dead bodies are also war crimes," Amnesty International said.

If I can help you with anything else, please let me know.


 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 09:36 AM
Did ya see the Blow hard O'Reilly lecture McCaine about torture?

what a riot

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 09:45 AM
quote:
Did ya see the Blow hard O'Reilly lecture McCaine about torture?

what a riot


Holy crap, no. What a douche. Is there a transcript or anything?

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 10:30 AM
quote:
quote:
Did ya see the Blow hard O'Reilly lecture McCaine about torture?

what a riot


Holy crap, no. What a douche. Is there a transcript or anything?


I just caught the end of it. Former POW McCaine was talking about it
and Blustering Bill bascially said he was wrong.

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 10:34 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Did ya see the Blow hard O'Reilly lecture McCaine about torture?

what a riot


Holy crap, no. What a douche. Is there a transcript or anything?


I just caught the end of it. Former POW McCaine was talking about it
and Blustering Bill bascially said he was wrong.


Thats sad. Its another prime example of why McCain has no political backbone. He should have ripped falafel boy a new one considering what he went through.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 10:35 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Did ya see the Blow hard O'Reilly lecture McCaine about torture?

what a riot


Holy crap, no. What a douche. Is there a transcript or anything?


I just caught the end of it. Former POW McCaine was talking about it
and Blustering Bill bascially said he was wrong.


Thats sad. Its another prime example of why McCain has no political backbone. He should have ripped falafel boy a new one considering what he went through.


He may have. O'Reilly edits

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 10:39 AM
What is Amnesty International doing besides letting everyine know how they feel?

quote:
Amnesty International believes that the cycle of violence in Iraq will only be broken if all parties fully respect international human rights standards.


Tell us something we don't know

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 10:58 AM
quote:
What is Amnesty International doing besides letting everyine know how they feel?


Um, what do you expect them to do? They arent a political body. They arent a governing body.

quote:
Amnesty International believes that the cycle of violence in Iraq will only be broken if all parties fully respect international human rights standards.


Tell us something we don't know


Ok. Torture is wrong, always. It doesnt work. It helps manifest hatred against US forces and the United States in general.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 11:01 AM
quote:
He may have. O'Reilly edits


Ooops, forgot about that. Youre right.

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 11:46 AM
Here's McCain's full statement. Squatch, I'm 100% with you on his political behavior since 2000, but, I still think he would have been a fine choice as President:

quote:
Mr. President, war is an awful business. I know that. I don’t think I’m naďve about how severe are the wages of war, and how terrible are the things that must be done to wage it successfully. It is a grim, dark business, and no matter how noble the cause for which it is fought, no matter how valiant the service, many veterans spend much of their subsequent lives trying to forget not only what was done to them and their comrades, but some of what had to be done by their hand to prevail.

I don’t mourn the loss of any terrorist’s life nor do I care if in the course of serving their ignoble cause they suffer great harm. They have pledged their lives to the intentional destruction of innocent lives, and they have earned their terrible punishment in this life and the next.

What I do regret, what I do mourn, and what I do care very much about is what we lose, what we -- the American serviceman and woman and the great nation they defend at the risk of their lives – what we lose when by official policy or by official negligence – we allow, confuse or encourage our soldiers to forget that best sense of ourselves, our greatest strength – that we are different and better than our enemies; that we fight for an idea – not a tribe, not a land, not a king, not a twisted interpretation of an ancient religion – but for an idea that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights.

I have been asked before where did the brave men I was privileged to serve with in Vietnam draw the strength to resist to the best of their ability the cruelties inflicted on them by our enemies. Well, we drew strength from our faith in each other, from our faith in God, and from our faith in our country. Our enemies didn’t adhere to the Geneva Convention. Many of my comrades were subjected to very cruel, very inhumane and degrading treatment, a few of them even unto death. But everyone of us knew, every single one of us knew and took great strength from the belief that we were different from our enemies, that we were better than them, that we, if the roles were reversed, would not disgrace ourselves by committing or countenancing such mistreatment of them. That faith was indispensable not only to our survival, but to our attempts to return home with honor. Many of the men I served with would have preferred death to such dishonor.

The enemies we fight today hold such liberal notions in contempt, as they hold the international conventions that enshrine them such as the Geneva Conventions and the treaty on torture in contempt. I know that. But we’re better than them, and we are the stronger for our faith. And we will prevail. I submit to my colleagues that it is indispensable to our success in this war that our servicemen and women know that in the discharge of their dangerous responsibilities to their country they are never expected to forget that they are Americans, the valiant defenders of a sacred idea of how nations should govern their own affairs and their relations with others – even our enemies.

Those who return to us and those who give their lives for us are entitled to that honor. And those of us who have given them this onerous duty are obliged by our history, and by the sacrifices – the many terrible sacrifices -- that have been made in our defense – we are obliged to make clear to them that they need not risk their or their country’s honor to prevail; that they are always, always – through the violence, chaos and heartache of war, through deprivation and cruelty and loss – they are always, always Americans, and different, better, and stronger than those who would destroy us.

God bless them as he has blessed us with their service.

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 01:37 PM
The Pro-Torture Nine:

Allard (R-CO)
Bond (R-MO)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Roberts (R-KS)
Sessions (R-AL)
Stevens (R-AK)

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 01:46 PM
Bhawk,

Wonder how many of those nine have worn a military uniform? Guess I could do the research, but I'll leave it to someone else. Totally agree with Sen McCain's statement, and if anyone in the Senate knows what he's talking about on this issue, it would be him.

 
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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 02:02 PM
What is the reasoning from Bush and the 9 (R)'s who are against this bill? Stating that our people have been tortured, while causing resentment and anger, doesn't justify allowing our people to do so. Do unto others... etc...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 02:06 PM
Well, CUH, since you asked...

The Pro-Torture Nine:

Allard (R-CO) - Did not serve
Bond (R-MO) - Did not serve
Coburn (R-OK) - Did not serve
Cochran (R-MS) - US Navy
Cornyn (R-TX) - Did not serve
Inhofe (R-OK) - US Army
Roberts (R-KS) - US Marines
Sessions (R-AL) - Did not serve
Stevens (R-AK) - US Air Force

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 02:25 PM
Of the nine, only four have worn our nation's uniform

Sen Thad Cochran was in the Navy
Sen James Inhofe was in the Army
Sen Pat Roberts was a Marine
Sen Stevens was in the Air Force

One thing I find curious if that Sen Sessions who had the audicity to to say the following,

quote:
McCain amendment was unnecessary, since those responsible for the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib "are being held to account." He said he did not believe he questioned Fishback's integrity, and he said senators who questioned whether abuses were sanctioned by top officers or the Pentagon should consider an apology.



has never worn the uniform.

Pretty amazing, to tell a man who survived wartime torture that
1. his amendment was unnecessary
2. that thoses responsibe for the abuse have been punished (I guess locking up a few enlisted soldiers solved that problems)
3. questioning the integrity of U.S. Army Captain stationed with 82nd Airborne.
4. to suggest that Sen McCain or any other senator should issue an apology for even thinking that top officers at the Pentagon might have sanctioned sudh abuses.

Is it me, of does anyone else think that Sen Sessions is a complete ass here and is completely out-of-line.


[Edited on 10/6/2005 by cleaneduphippy]

 
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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 02:45 PM
Something just crossed my mind. If Bush "veto" this bill, because of Sen McCain admendment and because this will be Bush's first veto, wonder how that's going to play in the world press, especially the press in Arab world? Seems to me, that it'll get "played up" that Bush supports torture and that'll no doubt "fuel up" additional hatred of Americans. Of course, Bush is so "full of himself" he fails to realize that his actions play right into the emenies' hand. Let's hope someone "clues" him in before he signs that veto.
 
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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 03:26 PM
Everything this man does and says fuels the growing discontent with America in the world. I really wish he would let someone with more tact and sense than that Karl Rove advise him for a change. And yea, that Sessions dude is out of line with his smarmy comments.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 04:28 PM
quote:
Yeah, it was also wrong of us to behead their civilians on videotape and put the footage on the internet for everyone, including the families of the victims to see. Oh, wait a minute ... that wasn't us! I could be wrong, but I don't think I've heard Amnesty International come down on that activity yet.




The beheadings are traditional religious custom. I think a bullet is better, but you cannot compare the porn/torture to a beheading. Since they are being tortured, they have a right to fight back.

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 04:32 PM
quote:
quote:
Yeah, it was also wrong of us to behead their civilians on videotape and put the footage on the internet for everyone, including the families of the victims to see.


So, youre saying that we shouldnt be any better than those we oppose? I dont know about you, but I expect all of our soldiers to be professional and representative of the values of the United States. Is there a particular reason why you feel that they should be entitled to torture and kill people "because the other guys did it"?

quote:
Oh, wait a minute ... that wasn't us! I could be wrong, but I don't think I've heard Amnesty International come down on that activity yet.


Yep, youre wrong. Maybe you should do some research as opposed to letting Rush do your thinking for you?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140212004?open&of=ENG-IRQ

Iraq: Beheading of civilian condemned, hostages must be released

Amnesty International condemns in the strongest terms the abduction and beheading of an American civilian by an armed group, Muntada al-Ansar, in Iraq - a video of which was released yesterday. The organization is appalled by the public display of the victim's execution by the group.

The killing of prisoners is one of the most serious crimes under international law. It is a war crime, and if part of a deliberate and systematic attack against a civilian population, it would also constitute a crime against humanity.

"Such acts are unjustifiable under any circumstances and constitute a serious crime under international law. Those responsible should be brought to justice in line with international standards," said Amnesty International.

"Armed groups must release immediately and without any precondition all hostages, and should refrain from deliberately attacking, abducting and killing civilians."

Political and community leaders in Iraq should exercise their influence to ensure an end to the taking and killing of hostages.

A video posted on a website yesterday supposedly showed 26-year-old Nick Berg, an American businessman, being beheaded by the group. The group said his death was revenge for the ill-treatment of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers in Iraq.

Hundreds of civilians, Iraqis and foreigners, have been deliberately killed by armed groups or individuals in Iraq.

Amnesty International is further concerned that footage surrounding the execution was shown on web sites and on television.

Amnesty International believes that the cycle of violence in Iraq will only be broken if all parties fully respect international human rights standards.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA110112004?open&of=ENG-AFG

Afghanistan: Amnesty International condemns the reported beheading of Taleban prisoners

Amnesty International today condemned the reported extrajudicial beheading of Taleban prisoners by government soldiers in southern Afghanistan this week. The organization stated it was appalled at the grotesque and retaliatory nature of the incident which reportedly occurred during "anti-Taleban" military activities in southern Afghanistan.

"Beheadings are unjustifiable under any circumstances" said Amnesty International.

Amnesty International urges the Afghan government to initiate a full investigation into the killings. Those responsible for committing the unlawful killings must be brought to justice in trials that are consistent with international standards. The results of the investigations should be made public.

The Afghan government must take immediate action to ensure that the right to life is respected and protected. Amnesty International also appeals to foreign governments, in their contacts with the Afghan government, to stress the necessity to guarantee respect for human rights at all times and to carry out thorough investigations into the killings.


http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140562004?open&of=ENG-IRQ

Insurgents are also reported to have violated rules of internaitonal humanitarian law. In one incident, some Iraqis are reported to have come out of a building waving a white flag. When a Marine approached this group, insurgents opened fire on the Marines from different directions. A US military official in Iraq also accused insurgents of storing weapons in mosques and schools. Insurgents were reported as firing from a mosque on 10 November.

All violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law must be investigated and those responsible for unlawful attacks, including deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, and the killing of injured persons must be brought to justice.


And

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE140572004?open&of=ENG-IRQ

Insurgents are also reported to have violated rules of international humanitarian law: "Commanders and fighters of armed groups in Falluja also have an obligation to respect fundamental rules of international law. Acts such as booby trapping dead bodies are also war crimes," Amnesty International said.

If I can help you with anything else, please let me know.




You can help me with something. ARY News last Sunday reported, and it was published in the Guardian (London) that former British Minister Michael Machure said the MI6 (British Military intelligence) sent Omar Saeed Sheikh abroad for military training. Omar Saeed Sheikh was the man credited with murdering the reporter Daniel Pearl. He was also accused of working for Al Qaida. They also stated that the British Military Intelligence sent 200 Muslims to train for jihad in Kosovo. Now, since the military intelligence people are sending people to train to assassinate other people, why are we blaming it all on Osama? Can you help me with that?

 

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  posted on 10/6/2005 at 08:24 PM
Gina, I think you have answered your own question.
 

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  posted on 10/7/2005 at 07:40 AM
Good editorial from today's Washington Post. btw, I've "bold" the text that says exactly what will be heard throughout the world if Bush "veto's" this bill.

End the Abuse

Friday, October 7, 2005

THE SENATE has taken a major step toward stopping the most damaging and shameful American conduct during the war on terrorism. An amendment to the defense appropriations bill offered by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and approved Wednesday night by the resounding vote of 90 to 9 would end four years of uncertainty about the rules for the military's treatment of detainees. It would also close the loophole that administration lawyers improperly opened for the CIA in an anti-torture treaty the United States ratified a decade ago, by prohibiting "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment for all prisoners held in U.S. custody.

If upheld by the House, Mr. McCain's amendment would curtail, at last, the policy of abuse adopted by the Bush administration for detainees in the war on terrorism. It would mandate an end to the hundreds of cases of torture and inhumane treatment, many of them qualifying as war crimes, that have been documented by the International Red Cross and the Army itself at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan and Iraq, and elsewhere. Improper practices approved by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld for the Guantanamo Bay prison and subsequently exported to Iraq, such as stripping prisoners naked and threatening them with dogs, would be out of bounds. Such conduct is not permitted by the U.S. Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation, which conforms with the Geneva Conventions and which, under the McCain amendment, would set the standard. Also out of bounds would be the even harsher methods approved by Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and used by the CIA on detainees it is holding in secret locations abroad, such as simulated drowning and mock execution. With the endorsement of a long list of senior retired military officers, including Colin L. Powell, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Senate has sent a clear message that such practices are a dangerous departure from decades of past practice and an unacceptable violation of American values.


The amendment gives President Bush a chance at least to amend the record of abuse that will blot his legacy. Yet Mr. Bush is not inclined to accept this chance. Despite the mounting reaction from the Senate, the military establishment, the courts and courageous serving officers such as Capt. Ian Fishback, the president stubbornly digs his dishonorable hole deeper. The White House is leaning on Republican House members to kill or water down the McCain amendment; the president's spokesman even threatened a veto.

Let's be clear: Mr. Bush is proposing to use the first veto of his presidency on a defense bill needed to fund military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan so that he can preserve the prerogative to subject detainees to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment. In effect, he threatens to declare to the world his administration's moral bankruptcy.

Congress should proceed anyway. Its intervention in the handling and interrogation of prisoners in the war is overdue. Defense bill conferees and the House should support the McCain amendment without alteration. They should also back a parallel amendment by Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) that provides for congressional oversight of the review panels the administration has established for enemy combatants held at Guantanamo. Congress's correction of Mr. Bush's willful violation of U.S. principles in the handling of detainees would show the world that American democracy is working. It will also give our soldiers a better chance of winning the war they have been asked to fight.


 
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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 10/7/2005 at 10:37 PM
If any of your sons were being held by these lunatics and beheading was inevitable.......unless a little properly applied pain to one of theres would get the information to save his life, can you honestly say you wouldn't be for it?

Americans that support terrorists make me want to puke. And when somebody says that cutting off the head of a person who is tied to a chair is fighting back then I say you are suportting terrorists.

Good Lord folks it was only a matter of time before we were hit hard here (9/11) and it's only a matter of time before they strike again. The "Leave them alone and they won't bother us" theory DOES NOT WORK! They aren't bees man they are lunatics and they hate us because freedom is a threat to their way of life.

It may be a clusterfck over there but if we up and run they will be right behind us.

 

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  posted on 10/7/2005 at 10:43 PM
quote:
Americans that support terrorists make me want to puke. And when somebody says that cutting off the head of a person who is tied to a chair is fighting back then I say you are suportting terrorists.


Yea, I don't like Americans who support terrorism either. I'd say that anyone who supports beheading as a method of "fighting back" is a nutcase, too. I also think anyone who thinks torturing of other human beings is pretty sick as well. It certainly doesn't "even the score" nor does it keep the enemy from doing more torture of our people. We've seen that to be evident.

 

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"Whatever happiness is in the world has arisen from a wish for the welfare of others; whatever misery there is has arisen from indulging self"

 
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