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Author: Subject: Knowing jams and where they're going

Ultimate Peach





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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 09:44 PM
I read in the Moe thread (I refuse to write moe., it f*cks with my head when I read it) that you don't know where they're going.


I really believe that if you don't follow a band closely, you can't really understand there style.

I bought a few instant lives of Moe. I couldn't follow. But when I listen to the Dead, WSP or ABB, I can follow. Why? Because I've trained my ears to understand the band. The same goes for SCI. I'm totally lost.


Does this make sense? Also- are you shocked that a thread I started is about music and not some smart a$$ comment?


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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 09:52 PM
Add Phish to the list of where is the Jam going... Ohh yea... Lets loop it and go take a break backstage and leave Jon on stage drumming. Genious!! Lol

 

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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 09:56 PM
Wo wo wo... I'm not here knocking bands... I'm trying to say, if you don't really follow a band, how do you know there style?


Maybe it's the Ambien kicking in.

 

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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 09:58 PM
I dunno Chris. I like Phish, moe., WSP, SCI, Dead, and ABB.

I get lost in the Dead's spacey jams though.

 

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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 10:01 PM
Let me clear something-

No one can understand Drums/Space with the Dead. I mean when they go off on a jam during something like Eyes Of the World, Jack Straw, etc....


 

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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 10:05 PM
Yea, I get where you are going with this. It's difficult to follow the cues of the song structure during an extended jam unless you know the song in the first place.

But i think there is a lot more to it than that. Rhythm, chord progressions, melody, harmony and many many other aspects of music will trigger your mind into that happy place.

Also, at least in my opinion, it's tough to compare the GD or the ABB to any band, current or otherwise. When it comes to the GD and the ABB although they had/have their own distinct styles, we are also talking about some of the finest musicians to ever walk this earth, playing tunes that are in many ways truly american classics.

Moe is NOT in that category. And I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that they never will be. In the case of the GD, we are talking about 30 years of incredible musicians playing together night after night (1965-1995) at one of the highest creative levels ever in music history. And in the case of the ABB we are talking 36 years and counting. Both bands basically created the genre of music that they play. And they combined incredible musicianship with terrific timeless songwriting. I think what Bill Graham said about the GD actually applies to both the GD and the ABB - "they are not the BEST at what they do, they are the ONLY ones who do what they do"

No matter what you think of Moe, or Phish, or SCI or any other "jam band" out there, putting them in a class with the ABB or the GD is a total joke.

[Edited on 8/18/2005 by merlin28]

 

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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 10:14 PM
quote:
No matter what you think of Moe, or Phish, or SCI or any other "jam band" out there, putting them in a class with the ABB or the GD is a total joke.


Nuff said.

 

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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 10:16 PM
And the same goes for Miles and Coltrane and Charlie Parker etc in the jazz realm.

There are players, there are musicians. And then there are geniuses. And when you are hearing genius, you may not always "like" it, but you will be moved by it, because it will be something truly creative and different than what you've ever heard before.

That's the category that band's like moe (and many many others) will never venture into.

 

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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 10:21 PM
Man, the first time I heard LAFE I didn't have to know the band or where those guys were going, they took me there! Each little twist and turn, bend and slide, was so exciting and exhilirating I couldn't get enough! And here I am all these years later and I still can't get enough.
 

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  posted on 8/17/2005 at 10:26 PM
I used to think the same thing about the following jams thing. I knew where a Whipping Post jam or an Other One jam was going because I knew the changes that were coming. But ever since I've become a jazz fan, I've realized it's not knowing the songs, it's expanding your mind and your ears. There are many levels of this. The first is understanding the changes in a simple song. Then comes a band, and then comes an improvisational band night after night. But after that comes a completely open ear, which comes from listening to a lot of jazz. I'm listening to 2-3 cds a week of material that I've never even sniffed before, and I can follow it fairly well.

As for Moe and Phish and SCI, I still don't understand where their jams are going. I've resigned myself to saying either they're too complex for me (not likely) or they just aren't very good.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 02:08 PM
Terrapin>Dark Star>Drumz>Space>Drumz>Cryptical Envelopment>Dark Star

Huh?

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 02:16 PM
i hate to break it to y'all but the abb dont "jam". they play instrumental segments. an Am>D isnt a jam because you know exactly whats coming. do you think warren or derek are surprised when the other plays an Am?

SCI jams, though i hate the techno/dance crap. the dead jams. phish jams. etc.

with the above bands you never hear a version of a song thats exactly the same because they risk going off into no where and bringing it back. some are successful and some need to fall back on techno. (no disrespect to the brothers here btw) the only thing different about a liz reed or les brers are the solos. you always know its going to be (in liz reed for example): melody>dickey/derek solo>gregg solo>warren/duane solo>most of the time drums>oteil>melody>end.

i will say that mountain is an awesome jam and this incarnation of the abb play the sh!t out of it. i especially like the 8/8/03 where they do a blue sky jam where the drums would usually be.



[Edited on 8/18/2005 by TheOtherOne]

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 02:34 PM
chris starting a music topic has me at a loss for words...

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 02:36 PM
Try some ditch weed with a little coke sprinkled on it - that ought to get you talking.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 02:47 PM
quote:
quote:
No matter what you think of Moe, or Phish, or SCI or any other "jam band" out there, putting them in a class with the ABB or the GD is a total joke.


Nuff said.


i would put phish in that class.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 03:25 PM
quote:
Add Phish to the list of where is the Jam going... Ohh yea... Lets loop it and go take a break backstage and leave Jon on stage drumming. Genious!! Lol

i just dont get phish period. awful band IMO.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 03:29 PM
quote:
And the same goes for Miles and Coltrane and Charlie Parker etc in the jazz realm.

There are players, there are musicians. And then there are geniuses. And when you are hearing genius, you may not always "like" it, but you will be moved by it, because it will be something truly creative and different than what you've ever heard before.

That's the category that band's like moe (and many many others) will never venture into.

bands like SCI and Moe are just expanding on what the abb and gd started. maybe even taking it further, but IMO the abb and dead are far better than the new age "jam bands"

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 05:02 PM
agreed^

dont ever say trey cant hold a candle to derek or warren. i can see derek but definitely not warren. i had two students that were real into warren and after three months of playing they didnt even need me to figure out his solos. ive been playing jazz, blues, rock and anything else you can name for about thirty years. ive spent months and months trying to figure out some of the sh!t trey does.

you guys give warren too much credit for soloing over the same two chords for a few minutes.

[Edited on 8/18/2005 by TheOtherOne]

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 05:54 PM
quote:
"i just dont get phish period. awful band IMO." -- real good argument

quote:
Phish can't hold the Allman's jock strap on stage. How could anyone put them on the same level? Listen to the Allman's rhythm section and then listen to Phishs'. Roaring freight train versus a choo choo train if you ask me. Then compare Trey to Derek and Warren - c'mon now. If the Allmans are a 10, Phish is a 6, or 7 at best.


seems like your logic is flawed as youre comparing a drummer and a percussionist (jaimoe and butch) to a guy who does it all by himself (fishman) and you're comparing two guitarists to one.

you don't need to like them but talk to oteil and warren and derek and i'm sure they would speak very highly of phish as musicians and as a band. plus, so many people on this site are so condescending towards phish, most likely because they don't get what all the hype is about and they probably feel a little threatened that a band that they don't get was drawing hundreds of thousands of fans to their concerts.

to me, it sounds a lot like a bunch of people my parent's age ranting against the next wave of music that they just don't understand. sometimes i make my dad listen to 'dark star' -- after 2 minutes he's completely lost as he just doesn't have the ears to stomach such strangeness coming out of his stereo. i'm guessing that this is a generational thing. hate to play the age card here but talk to people under 30 about ABB and phish and listen to what they have to say -- somehow i suspect it wont be "phish can't hold ABB's jock." i suspect it would be somethin like "the allman brothers? they're still around? how many brothers are left?"

i love phish and i love the dead and i love the allman brothers. but don't act like phish is so many steps below the brothers on the musical totem poll. phish cant hold ABB's jock? gimme a break. throughout much of the 80s and 90s, the opposite was certainly the case. anyone who claims that the brothers had a greater impact on the music scene during the duration of phish is crazy.

ok fire away. just the two cents of a guy who's sick of all the phish bashing that goes on around here.

marc

the hype is what get me mad. maybe its the great lyrics.......nope that's not it...maybe its the intense jamming.......ahhh cheese is better....maybe its how good they sing.....nahh...maybe its because trey is a god......ummm any guitar player ever in the abb is better...so what is all the hype about??

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 05:57 PM
..I want to say something here but ...I'm just not ready yet... ...maybe later.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 06:02 PM
quote:
i hate to break it to y'all but the abb dont "jam". they play instrumental segments. an Am>D isnt a jam because you know exactly whats coming. do you think warren or derek are surprised when the other plays an Am?

SCI jams, though i hate the techno/dance crap. the dead jams. phish jams. etc.

with the above bands you never hear a version of a song thats exactly the same because they risk going off into no where and bringing it back. some are successful and some need to fall back on techno. (no disrespect to the brothers here btw) the only thing different about a liz reed or les brers are the solos. you always know its going to be (in liz reed for example): melody>dickey/derek solo>gregg solo>warren/duane solo>most of the time drums>oteil>melody>end.

i will say that mountain is an awesome jam and this incarnation of the abb play the sh!t out of it. i especially like the 8/8/03 where they do a blue sky jam where the drums would usually be.



[Edited on 8/18/2005 by TheOtherOne]


I liked Phish, moe, UMcGee but they get old after about 1/2-1/3 of the way through a show.

I'm glad to hear someone else on hear besides me agrees with what Gregg Allman said. " we're not a jam band, we're a band that jams." He gets made fun of for that but he's right. He went on to say that as long as they're playing something. I wasn't ever going to say anything but I have tried to listen to a bunch of Dark Stars and I can't get what the big deal is there. What Jerry was playing was great but the rest of the band just noodles into the atmosphere somewhere. That's not entirely true about Les Brers and other instrumentals. They play them at very different tempos night after night. They will do afro blue and portions of some songs in the middle or after the drum solos.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 06:21 PM
Interesting thread, I guess I'll put my 2 cents in about the Phish thing. I agree with the above stated opinions.(mglowenstein and TheOtherOne) I used to be pretty into the ABB and would try and pounce on any B&P offer that was posted up here and would obsess over Derek and Duane's playing and so forth. Pretty soon I got a bit burnt out I guess, and started thinking that about every show was almost identical. i.e. Statesboro Blues- A Derek solo, a Warren solo, a Gregg solo. This might not be the correct number of solos (I haven't listened to the ABB in a while) but the point I'm trying to get across is that most of these songs are very structured in that you know what they're going to do. I don't believe the "Group Mind" is employed very often. I guess if you want, you could call the solos improvising or jamming but creatively, I think that Phish is on a different realm than the ABB. They are the definitive "groove" band where no one will be soloing, they're just adding what they will to the mix and feeding from each other, sometimes going into extreme improvisation where even the chords are improvised. I do not believe you can say the same for the Allman Brothers Band. So in summary, Phish might be hard to grasp and weird to some people, but to say that they can't a hold a stick to the ABB seems a little ignorant if you actually listen to the music. No disrespect to the ABB, they're an iconic American band. Sorry if I'm being a little harsh, I had to march at band camp for 7 hours today, maybe I'm just cranky. I'm usually a pretty nice guy.
 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 06:21 PM
quote:
quote:
i hate to break it to y'all but the abb dont "jam". they play instrumental segments. an Am>D isnt a jam because you know exactly whats coming. do you think warren or derek are surprised when the other plays an Am?

SCI jams, though i hate the techno/dance crap. the dead jams. phish jams. etc.

with the above bands you never hear a version of a song thats exactly the same because they risk going off into no where and bringing it back. some are successful and some need to fall back on techno. (no disrespect to the brothers here btw) the only thing different about a liz reed or les brers are the solos. you always know its going to be (in liz reed for example): melody>dickey/derek solo>gregg solo>warren/duane solo>most of the time drums>oteil>melody>end.

i will say that mountain is an awesome jam and this incarnation of the abb play the sh!t out of it. i especially like the 8/8/03 where they do a blue sky jam where the drums would usually be.



[Edited on 8/18/2005 by TheOtherOne]


I liked Phish, moe, UMcGee but they get old after about 1/2-1/3 of the way through a show.

I'm glad to hear someone else on hear besides me agrees with what Gregg Allman said. " we're not a jam band, we're a band that jams." He gets made fun of for that but he's right. He went on to say that as long as they're playing something. I wasn't ever going to say anything but I have tried to listen to a bunch of Dark Stars and I can't get what the big deal is there. What Jerry was playing was great but the rest of the band just noodles into the atmosphere somewhere. That's not entirely true about Les Brers and other instrumentals. They play them at very different tempos night after night. They will do afro blue and portions of some songs in the middle or after the drum solos.


well if you take every note and rhythm that bobby, phil, keith (or tom or brent etc) and the drums are playing and look at them on paper you'll see that the way they communicate on stage is astounding. then when you throw in "when" and "why" for jerry you'll see that jerry was a wizard.

have you or anyone ever seen a liz reed that goes beyond Cmaj7>C>Cmaj7>D? i havent and i dont expect to. thats why i dont consider the abb a jam band. i dont even consider what they do jamming. but the solos are really good, the rhythm section is tight, and gregg and warren can sing their asses off.

now take the dead's dark star. does it stay a>g the whole time? nope. it moves into the unknown. thats what i consider jamming.

as for phish listen to the darien jams from 9/14/00 (correct me if im wrong). those start out as nothing and rise to an awesome peak that was spontanteously concocted in front of a few thousand people.

oh yeah the loops rock and i dont see whats wrong with them. its not like trey presses a button and a lick comes from a machine. hes gotta play the lick before it repeats.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 07:10 PM
*i'd rather see a band that is really taking chances with their playing and feeding off one another than a band who just plays through their stuff without interacting or taking risks.*

This thread is hilarious b/c:

1)-Chris started it.
2)-People are making it seem like the ABB, Dead, Phish, & etc. are the LAWS of "jamming" & improvised music.

You know, staying within one's self is also a SKILL. The whole "Keep It Simple Stupid" sometimes applies. Just b/c one may take "chances", it doesn't mean it will be good, or even the RIGHT risk to take.

dmiller862 maybe onto something here: listen to some jazz.

 

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  posted on 8/18/2005 at 07:40 PM
i think it's cool when you pick up on a note and you know right away which way the band is going,but you do have to kinda know the material.whats really cool is when a band will trick you,and play a different song that sounds the same as the one your thinking.kinda keeps you on your toes.have never heard a note of moe,who would you compare it,them,him to?
 
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