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Author: Subject: 26 people killed in shooting at Texas church

Sublime Peach





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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 07:33 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html

 

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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 07:58 AM
Just exactly when does this argument start to get tired?

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trump-calls-texas-church-shooting-act-evil-005506 561--abc-news-topstories.html
"Mental health is your problem here. This was a very, based on preliminary reports, a very deranged individual, a lot of problems over a long period of time. We have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries. But this isn't a guns situation," President Trump said of the First Baptist Church shooting during a joint press conference with Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.



[Edited on 11/6/2017 by robslob]

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 08:23 AM
1 - There is no reason in the world for any civilian to own an automatic weapon. Period; case closed.

2 - It is a mental health and a gun issue. Did someone who was court-martialed and imprisoned for battery against his wife and child obtain weapons legally?

3 - From both a gun and an immigration standpoint: Yes, this guy was eventually dishonorably discharged. But if the US military can't vette someone how can we trust our government to vette either of the above?

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 08:33 AM
quote:
Just exactly when does this argument start to get tired?

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/trump-calls-texas-church-shooting-act-evil-005506 561--abc-news-topstories.html
"Mental health is your problem here. This was a very, based on preliminary reports, a very deranged individual, a lot of problems over a long period of time. We have a lot of mental health problems in our country, as do other countries. But this isn't a guns situation," President Trump said of the First Baptist Church shooting during a joint press conference with Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe.




Well then Mr. Trump and fellow Republicans in Congress, then why did you pass and sign a bill making it easier for mentally ill individuals to be able to buy guns. You must be proud!

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 08:35 AM
Time to break out the handy "Mass shooting in US checklist":

1. Send thoughts & prayers but not actually do anything useful *check
2. Argue over semantics of the term "assault rifle" *check
3. Argue over semantics of the term "terrorist" - if Muslim use it, if Christian/white use term "lone wolf" "mentally ill" "troubled past" *check
4. Congress does nothing but NRA increases donations just in case *check
5. Wait for next one, rinse,repeat *check

[Edited on 11/6/2017 by 2112]

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 11:51 AM
Every week now it is something.

I've always believed the problem is the people behind these acts and not the weapons or means they use.

But if we can't address or fix the people problem, alright I'll sit down with you all, let's address the weapons and means side of it.

My question is, if we overhaul the purchase and ownership system for firearms in this country in a way that would be appropriate and reasonable to those calling for gun greater restrictions, my question is what do we do when these events continue to happen in spite of the efforts? What then?

I'm not suggesting that because I think it will do little that we shouldn't do anything. Not my position. I'm coming to the table to find agreement and change on the issue. Let's work. So if this work fails to create the changes we seek then what? It is still a defective person problem - so what is the course of action for that?

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 01:22 PM
quote:
Every week now it is something.

I've always believed the problem is the people behind these acts and not the weapons or means they use.

But if we can't address or fix the people problem, alright I'll sit down with you all, let's address the weapons and means side of it.

My question is, if we overhaul the purchase and ownership system for firearms in this country in a way that would be appropriate and reasonable to those calling for gun greater restrictions, my question is what do we do when these events continue to happen in spite of the efforts? What then?

I'm not suggesting that because I think it will do little that we shouldn't do anything. Not my position. I'm coming to the table to find agreement and change on the issue. Let's work. So if this work fails to create the changes we seek then what? It is still a defective person problem - so what is the course of action for that?


It's still going to happen for quite a while due to the number of weapons already out there. However, since people are still buying some of these rediculous weapons, some people who want them won't get them, so it's a start.

The people problem and weapon problem aren't exclusive, but we are going in the wrong direction. Congress passed a law and Trump signed it earlier this year making it easier for people with mental health issues to buy a gun. This is pure insanity.

 

Peach Pro



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 01:31 PM
quote:
Time to break out the handy "Mass shooting in US checklist":

1. Send thoughts & prayers but not actually do anything useful *check
2. Argue over semantics of the term "assault rifle" *check
3. Argue over semantics of the term "terrorist" - if Muslim use it, if Christian/white use term "lone wolf" "mentally ill" "troubled past" *check
4. Congress does nothing but NRA increases donations just in case *check
5. Wait for next one, rinse,repeat *check


I have to agree that is the SOP, although I'd like to change the title to Mass Murder in the US Checklist.

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 02:11 PM
quote:
I'd like to change the title to Mass Murder in the US Checklist.


Gotta agree. It is creepy how our terminology gradually reflects an acceptance of these events as the new normal.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 03:39 PM
People in Australia ask me "When is USA going to do something about gun violence?" I just shake my head and say never, it's a form of entertainment.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 03:56 PM
quote:
So if this work fails to create the changes we seek then what? It is still a defective person problem - so what is the course of action for that?


While it’s true that it was beyond irresponsible and stupid to ever allow civilians to purchase military assault rifles, I don’t think guns and mental illness are the only issues. Yes, they both play a role, but I don’t think there has been any real change in these two areas since the 90s, when columbine happened. What’s changed since then is technology and methods of communication. If you rewind a few decades, the public had limited tv choices, radio, newspapers, and magazines. There wasn’t enough airtime for every horror story out there, or to stage hostile pundit debates on 24-hour news networks. We only heard the horror stories and political fighting if we sought it, and had to plan our day around the news’ scheduled airtime. Disturbed ticking time bombs were not poked with sticks on a daily basis. Now, with smart phones and social media, every horror story from around the world gets funneled into our minds all day, along with 140 character diatribes that attack each other to fuel it even more. the disturbed ticking time bombs are poked with sticks every day. Tech has outpaced human’s mental evolution. On top of this, our free capitalist society encourages entrepreneurs to profit from these dangers.....more news sites and new social media apps are built as time goes on. As long as there are profits to be made from good ratings, it won’t change.

[Edited on 11/6/2017 by BoytonBrother]

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 06:03 PM
quote:
quote:
So if this work fails to create the changes we seek then what? It is still a defective person problem - so what is the course of action for that?


While it’s true that it was beyond irresponsible and stupid to ever allow civilians to purchase military assault rifles, I don’t think guns and mental illness are the only issues. Yes, they both play a role, but I don’t think there has been any real change in these two areas since the 90s, when columbine happened. What’s changed since then is technology and methods of communication. If you rewind a few decades, the public had limited tv choices, radio, newspapers, and magazines. There wasn’t enough airtime for every horror story out there, or to stage hostile pundit debates on 24-hour news networks. We only heard the horror stories and political fighting if we sought it, and had to plan our day around the news’ scheduled airtime. Disturbed ticking time bombs were not poked with sticks on a daily basis. Now, with smart phones and social media, every horror story from around the world gets funneled into our minds all day, along with 140 character diatribes that attack each other to fuel it even more. the disturbed ticking time bombs are poked with sticks every day. Tech has outpaced human’s mental evolution. On top of this, our free capitalist society encourages entrepreneurs to profit from these dangers.....more news sites and new social media apps are built as time goes on. As long as there are profits to be made from good ratings, it won’t change.

[Edited on 11/6/2017 by BoytonBrother]



I don't know. It seems like the prefered gun used in all of these mass shootings was illegal between 1994 and 2004. Seems like mass shootings have increased since then.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 06:04 PM
quote:
It's still going to happen for quite a while due to the number of weapons already out there. However, since people are still buying some of these rediculous weapons, some people who want them won't get them, so it's a start.

The people problem and weapon problem aren't exclusive, but we are going in the wrong direction. Congress passed a law and Trump signed it earlier this year making it easier for people with mental health issues to buy a gun. This is pure insanity.


We should remember that ACLU also didn't support the restrictions, aligning them with the 'right' and against the 'left' on this issue. So it isn't as cut and dry as it has been made out to be. It's a due process issue. Now, you or anyone could play the 'gun makers want more customers' angle, but hopefully you or any of those people also understand there was a legal and antidiscrimination matter at hand as well. It isn't that I or Trump or the ACLU want individuals with metal disabilities to have access to firearms, it is the process of how we go about determining who to apply the restrictions to and if they have any recourse to challenge such a ruling against them.

The NRA is the #1 opposition to just about any and all new restrictions and laws. So it has to start among their supporters to trickle up to the organization which can allow members of Congress to act more freely without fear of repressions. This is where people like myself and others can start. I have 4 close friends who have atleast 1 AR15 style rifles and are strong gun rights supporters. As I often do in here on our forum and in other political conversation I have with people I know, I tend to play devil's advocate and present reasonable arguments to the contrary of what the person I'm talking with believes, in this case why the ownership and purchase of their firearms could or should be different.

Some people are too entrenched, too partisan, too closed minded to listen to any different point of view no matter what. But I think most people when engaged in topics in a constructive way will listen to opposing views that leaves an impression on them.

From there it can impact pro-gun R and D representatives in Congress to being open for some new laws or restrictions.

Hoping that Democrats take Congress and the White House and hoping that then they can do what is necessary to address the matter isn't going to work either. Any time one side forces something on everyone it is met with strong resistance and outrage. It has to be bipartisan.

The members of Congress and the NRA need to hear it from their constituents and members to soften or change positions.

So that is what I mean when I say I'm willing to come to the table and work for change. I'm not just going to blindly vote for a Democrat because they more often than not want more gun regs, just like I don't blindly vote for a Republican because they tend to be a certain way on some other issue. We have to work towards changing the mentality within our friends, family, society and representatives in Washington.

Still, even the strongest laws can only have an impact to a certain point. Anything illegal and strongly regulated can still be obtained via illegal means circumventing the law and people motivated to carry out such horrendous and sickening acts of violence and murder will seek whatever means necessary. That doesn't mean nothing should be done, it just needs to be acknowledged I think that it may not have quite the desired effect. It might have partially the desired effect, a reduction in frequency or severity could be achieved so the attempt for change should be made.

This goes for any conservative here or pro-gun member. Challenge yourself privately on what you think needs done. If you aren't willing to concede some convenience and accept more responsibility and requirements as part of your purchase and ownership for your firearms then I guess that means you are part of the problem tearing this country apart.

Then we need to address the problem we have with people wanting to do these things, which is much much harder than trying to limit access to the means or tools these sick **** s use to carryout their violence and death.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 06:08 PM
quote:
quote:
So if this work fails to create the changes we seek then what? It is still a defective person problem - so what is the course of action for that?


While it’s true that it was beyond irresponsible and stupid to ever allow civilians to purchase military assault rifles, I don’t think guns and mental illness are the only issues. Yes, they both play a role, but I don’t think there has been any real change in these two areas since the 90s, when columbine happened. What’s changed since then is technology and methods of communication. If you rewind a few decades, the public had limited tv choices, radio, newspapers, and magazines. There wasn’t enough airtime for every horror story out there, or to stage hostile pundit debates on 24-hour news networks. We only heard the horror stories and political fighting if we sought it, and had to plan our day around the news’ scheduled airtime. Disturbed ticking time bombs were not poked with sticks on a daily basis. Now, with smart phones and social media, every horror story from around the world gets funneled into our minds all day, along with 140 character diatribes that attack each other to fuel it even more. the disturbed ticking time bombs are poked with sticks every day. Tech has outpaced human’s mental evolution. On top of this, our free capitalist society encourages entrepreneurs to profit from these dangers.....more news sites and new social media apps are built as time goes on. As long as there are profits to be made from good ratings, it won’t change.

[Edited on 11/6/2017 by BoytonBrother]


I think this is a good point.

The people who for some reason want to carry out these events can be motivated to do so by so many more avenues now than before. While I used to think movies planted seeds within sick people that could grow and blossom in acts of violence that may otherwise might've remain suppressed. Now with so many details and graphic photos and everything on the internet and how people communicate, people that have a predisposition towards murderous acts like we are talking get further fueled to carry it out.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 06:30 PM
quote:
people that have a predisposition towards murderous acts like we are talking get further fueled to carry it out.


Blame the internet, guns & movies.....

"predisposition"... you mean balls to the walls NUTS. What sane person commits a terrible act like this? Plain and simple, this is a mental health issue.

Question: Do the idiots who kill people with trucks and bombs do so because they can not acquire a gun?

 

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Peach Pro



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 06:54 PM
Mental illness is a lazy answer.

This guy turned out to have a history of domestic abuse & was literally gunning for his in-laws. Las Vegas - financial problems. Charleston - angry young man. Several revenge murders at former workplaces. Columbine was 2 high school misfits.

People behind bars for murder aren't all mentally ill. There's anger and hate and vengeance - none of which are classified in the DSM V.




 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 07:08 PM
We are still waiting for the left-wing “gun control” screamers to post a proposed law that they think would have prevented these murders.

Just like after Las Vegas the Democrats were all calling for a ban on the bump-stock accessory made available to the public by Obama’s ATF. Not one Democrat has offered any legislation to stop the sale of the bump-stock.

I would like to read what law the left thinks would have prevented the Texas man from getting a weapon.

In a pinch all he had to do was go to the ghetto of any city run by Democrats and he could have acquired all the fully automatic weapons he wanted.


 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 07:14 PM
quote:
Mental illness is a lazy answer.

This guy turned out to have a history of domestic abuse & was literally gunning for his in-laws. Las Vegas - financial problems. Charleston - angry young man. Several revenge murders at former workplaces. Columbine was 2 high school misfits.

People behind bars for murder aren't all mentally ill. There's anger and hate and vengeance - none of which are classified in the DSM V.






Every country in the world has people with mental illness. Only this country has so many mass killings. It is not a mental health issue.

Besides that, the GOP Congress passed a law that allows people with mental illness to buy guns. Trump signed it. The latest health care reform failure would have greatly reduced the coverage of mental illness. For any conservative to cry "it isn't guns, it is mental illness" is just a fraud. It's guns and the easy access to them by people both mentally stable and mentally ill.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 07:49 PM
Nothing will change. Not yesterday, today, tomorrow or ever.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 07:56 PM
quote:
Nothing will change. Not yesterday, today, tomorrow or ever.


True. Americans love their guns more than life itself, literally.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 08:19 PM
quote:
quote:
Mental illness is a lazy answer.

This guy turned out to have a history of domestic abuse & was literally gunning for his in-laws. Las Vegas - financial problems. Charleston - angry young man. Several revenge murders at former workplaces. Columbine was 2 high school misfits.

People behind bars for murder aren't all mentally ill. There's anger and hate and vengeance - none of which are classified in the DSM V.






Every country in the world has people with mental illness. Only this country has so many mass killings. It is not a mental health issue.

Besides that, the GOP Congress passed a law that allows people with mental illness to buy guns. Trump signed it. The latest health care reform failure would have greatly reduced the coverage of mental illness. For any conservative to cry "it isn't guns, it is mental illness" is just a fraud. It's guns and the easy access to them by people both mentally stable and mentally ill.



Your " the GOP Congress passed a law that allows people with mental illness to buy guns" is a flat out lie.
But since you believe it, post that law right here.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 08:22 PM
The Air Force never reported, as they are required to by law, Kelley’s dishonorable discharge and related pertinent details to The FBI and therefore the shooters ineligibility to buy a gun was never entered into the relevant databases.

That failure occurred during the Obama administration.


 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 09:05 PM
quote:
"predisposition"... you mean balls to the walls NUTS. What sane person commits a terrible act like this? Plain and simple, this is a mental health issue.


I’m with you, and if they want to buy a trove of pistols with unlimited ammo, I’m all for it. That’s America baby! Price of freedom. Obama ain’t taking my guns, no sir.

[Edited on 11/7/2017 by BoytonBrother]

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 09:43 PM
Air Force Error Allowed Texas Gunman to Buy Weapons

The New York Times

By DAVID MONTGOMERY, RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and JOSE A. DELREAL

SUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Tex. —

A day after a gunman massacred parishioners in a small Texas church, the Air Force admitted on Monday that it had failed to enter the man’s domestic violence court-martial into a federal database in 2016 that could have blocked him from buying the rifle he used to kill 26 people.

The conviction of the gunman, Devin P. Kelley, for domestic assault on his wife and infant stepson — he had cracked the child’s skull — should have stopped Mr. Kelley from legally purchasing the military-style rifle and three other guns he bought in the last four years. But that information was never entered by the Air Force into the federal database for background checks on gun purchasers, the service said.

“The Air Force has launched a review of how the service handled the criminal records of former Airman Devin P. Kelley following his 2012 domestic violence conviction,” the Air Force said in a statement. “Federal law prohibited him from buying or possessing firearms after this conviction.”
The statement said that Heather Wilson, the Air Force secretary, and Gen. David Goldfein, the Air Force chief of staff, had ordered the Air Force inspector general to work with the Pentagon’s inspector general to “conduct a complete review of the Kelley case and relevant policies and procedures.”

The Air Force also said that it was looking into whether other convictions had been improperly left unreported. “The service will also conduct a comprehensive review of Air Force databases to ensure records in other cases have been reported correctly,” the statement said.

New details of the killings also emerged on Monday, including a possible motive. Local law enforcement officials said that Mr. Kelley may have been driven by anger toward his estranged wife’s family, the final chapter in a life full of domestic rage. In addition to his court-martial, in which his previous wife was the victim, he had been investigated on a rape complaint, though he was not charged and his relationship to the victim was unclear.

His current wife’s mother attended First Baptist Church, the target of Mr. Kelley’s rage on Sunday. “The suspect’s mother-in-law attended this church,” Freeman Martin, a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said during a news conference Monday morning. “We know that he had made threatening texts and we can’t go into detail into that domestic situation that is continuing to be vetted and thoroughly investigated.”

“This was not racially motivated, it wasn’t over religious beliefs, it was a domestic situation going on,” Mr. Martin added.

Mr. Kelley’s wife and her parents were not at the church on Sunday, the authorities said, but a relative of his wife’s grandmother posted on Facebook that the grandmother was there and had been killed.

Mr. Kelley, who was dressed in all black and wore a skull-face mask, left the church, engaged in a gunfight with a bystander outside, and then led the bystander and another man in a dramatic car chase that ended with Mr. Kelley dead behind the wheel. He had shot himself, investigators said, though it was not yet clear whether that bullet had caused his death.



 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 11/6/2017 at 09:45 PM
quote:
The Air Force never reported, as they are required to by law, Kelley’s dishonorable discharge and related pertinent details to The FBI and therefore the shooters ineligibility to buy a gun was never entered into the relevant databases.

That failure occurred during the Obama administration.


Yep. Obama zapped the Air Force with his SNAFU Ray. Then the USAF morphed into an inefficient outfit for those eight years, and magically changed back into a well-oiled machine with a Republican in the White House.



 

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