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Author: Subject: The Inaugural Address

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 1/27/2017 at 01:46 PM
quote:
quote: lived through that "sucking" sound of Bill Clinton's American selloff called NAFTA



quote:

Did you know that Bill Clinton did not sign NAFTA nor did he negotiate it. Do your NAFTA homework.


Patty, I'm happy to see you active in these forums again regardless of our points of view.

Being that I get pretty fired up on most trade discussions I wanted to step in and say that yes Bill Clinton did not negotiate the origins of NAFTA, which of course happened under George HW Bush's administration.

I do believe you are aware that then Presidential candidate Bill Clinton and Vice Presidential candidate Al Gore campaigned on the merits of NAFTA and supported it's passage.

And finally I came here most importantly to remind you that on December 8th, 1993 President Bill Clinton did infact sign NAFTA into law. Here is a youtube video of the ceremony courtesy of the Clinton library.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDDuMUgt-og

The bottom line is that both parties, Republican and Democrat alike, have long sold out American workers for corporate and global interests. This needs to stop I hope you would agree.

 

A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 1/27/2017 at 02:01 PM
Following diplomatic negotiations dating back to 1990 among the three nations, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas signed the agreement in their respective capitals on December 17, 1992. The signed agreement was then ratified by each nation's legislative or parliamentary branch.

Yes he did sign it in to law but it was passed in the House and Senate by a Republican majority. He should have vetoed it but the majority wanted it. Ask Newt, he will tell you he loved it!

I guess that my beef here is that conservatives never take responsibility for something that they created. George W Bush signs a deal to remove troops from Iraq and now they blame Obama for the pull out. I would not get so pee'od if they would own the stuff they supported or created.

You know that I have been buying USA for a very long time and you and I both agreed on that. I believe we were doing it before it was the "thing". Of course I agree!

[Edited on 1/27/2017 by PattyG]

[Edited on 1/27/2017 by PattyG]

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 1/27/2017 at 02:35 PM
quote:
Following diplomatic negotiations dating back to 1990 among the three nations, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney and Mexican President Carlos Salinas signed the agreement in their respective capitals on December 17, 1992. The signed agreement was then ratified by each nation's legislative or parliamentary branch.

Yes he did sign it in to law but it was passed in the House and Senate by a Republican majority. He should have vetoed it but the majority wanted it. Ask Newt, he will tell you he loved it!

I guess that my beef here is that conservatives never take responsibility for something that they created. George W Bush signs a deal to remove troops from Iraq and now they blame Obama for the pull out. I would not get so pee'od if they would own the stuff they supported or created.

You know that I have been buying USA for a very long time and you and I both agreed on that. I believe we were doing it before it was the "thing". Of course I agree!

[Edited on 1/27/2017 by PattyG]

[Edited on 1/27/2017 by PattyG]



Absolutely agree all around.

Newt was key in rallying Republican support. It was a close vote in the House 234-200 with the party split being For 132-102 R-D and Against 43-156-1 R-D-I. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/103-1993/h575

Yes Republicans wanted it, but so did President Clinton. And all the corporate and foreign lobbyists. The Mexican government spent $35 million for lobbying efforts leading up to the vote. But no Bill Clinton should not be singled out for NAFTA. Really lump all the former Presidents into the pot, they are all guilty.

 

A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 1/27/2017 at 02:47 PM
quote:
But no Bill Clinton should not be singled out for NAFTA. Really lump all the former Presidents into the pot, they are all guilty.


Agreed...

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 1/27/2017 at 04:37 PM
quote:
Pops...fake news lately?

1) Jobs left factories closed...from the Bureau of Labor Statistics...aside from the fact I'm a Mfg Accountant for 30+years and have lived through that "sucking" sound of Bill Clinton's American selloff called NAFTA, which started 1/1/94.
https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2014/images/manufacturing-chart1.jpg

2) We defend other Nations' borders not our own...
https://youtu.be/Yfj2uRi4VcM
...and from Wikipedia "The United States is the largest operator of military bases abroad, with 38 "named bases"[note 1] having active duty, national guard/reserve, and/or civilian personnel as of September 30, 2014. Its largest, in terms of personnel, was Ramstein AB, in Germany, with almost 9,200 personnel."

3)The U.S. has "subsidized the armies of other countries while allowing for the very sad depletion of our military...
https://conservativedailypost.com/obama-deploys-tanks-russia-forgot-critica l-aspect-mission-now-leaving-soldiers-stranded/

4) "We will reinforce old alliances and form new ones, and unite the civilized world against radical Islamic terrorism....

This would be a huge discussion on its own and goes back decades so I'll just leave you with three words...Military Industrial Complex and Eisenhower's farewell address.
https://youtu.be/8y06NSBBRtY

Hell, let's throw in Carlin to end with a laugh...
https://youtu.be/J5Z5o09yvO4



Here are the "FACTS" on nafta absent from your post. as for the rest of your post, yep its all fake news.

Fact Checker
History lesson: More Republicans than Democrats supported NAFTA
By Glenn Kessler May 9, 2016

(REUTERS/Jim Urquhart)
“NAFTA was signed by Bill Clinton. NAFTA has been a catastrophe, an absolute catastrophe for our country.”

—Donald Trump, interview with Bret Baier of Fox News, May 6, 2016

“NAFTA was given to us by Clinton. We can’t take any more of the Clintons.”

—Trump, during a rally in Charleston, W.V., May 6

“NAFTA, signed by Bill Clinton, has been a total disaster for the United States.”

—Trump, in an interview on CNN, May 2

Donald Trump, the presumptive Republican nominee for president, has long attacked free-trade pacts, in particular the North American Free Trade Agreement. For a politician who is remarkably inconsistent in his policy stances, opposition to NAFTA and trade deals has been a lodestar. BuzzFeed even located an October 1993 speech in which Trump attacked NAFTA as a bad deal.

“It’s a no-brainer,” Trump said, according to a news report. “The Mexicans want it, and that doesn’t sound good to me.”

But there are a lot of things that Trump gets wrong about NAFTA, including its basic history. He repeatedly associates it with President Bill Clinton, but that’s only half right.

The Facts

Bill Clinton was certainly a supporter of NAFTA who pushed approval through Congress. But it was negotiated and signed by President George H.W. Bush. (Here’s a photo.) Moreover, more Republicans than Democrats voted for the deal, as the trade pact was vehemently opposed by labor unions. One key ally for Clinton was then-House Minority Whip (and later House speaker) Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.), who is said to be on Trump’s list of possible running mates.

NAFTA was a successor to a free-trade pact with Canada. Bush had viewed NAFTA as a political opportunity, an achievement for his reelection campaign. He initialed the deal on Aug. 12, 1992, before the GOP convention, and then formally signed it in December 1992, after he had lost the election to Clinton.

Clinton had supported the pact during the presidential campaign but said he wanted to negotiate side agreements with Mexico concerning enforcement of labor and environmental laws. He didn’t pursue ratification in Congress till after those agreements were reached in August 1993 — but the deals were denounced by labor and environmental groups as too weak.


So Clinton did not negotiate NAFTA, nor did he sign it. But he did put his political prestige on the line to get it approved by Congress — even as two top Democrats, House Majority Leader Richard Gephardt (Mo.) and House Majority Whip David Bonior (Mich.), opposed it. In the House, NAFTA passed 234-200; 132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voted in favor of it. The Senate approved NAFTA 61-38, with the backing of 34 Republicans and 27 Democrats.

In both the House and the Senate, more Democrats voted against NAFTA than for it — a signal that the Bernie Sanders wing of the Democratic Party was strong even then. Clinton held a signing ceremony for the implementing legislation on Dec. 3, 1993, flanked by former presidents and congressional leaders of both parties. But that’s not the same as negotiating and signing the treaty with Mexico and Canada. The trade agreement went into effect on Jan. 1, 1994.

Trump also tends to greatly overstate the impact of NAFTA. In the interview on CNN, he suggested that the manufacturing job losses in New York, Pennsylvania and Maryland — “45 percent, 50 percent of manufacturing is gone”— were attributable to NAFTA.

“NAFTA has been a disaster for our country,” Trump said. “NAFTA has to be totally gotten rid of. Something has to happen with NAFTA.”

As we have noted repeatedly before, economists have not reached any firm conclusion on the impact of NAFTA, but many think that claims of massive job losses are overstated. The Congressional Research Service in 2015 concluded that the “net overall effect of NAFTA on the U.S. economy appears to have been relatively modest, primarily because trade with Canada and Mexico accounts for a small percentage of U.S. GDP [gross domestic product].”

The Economic Policy Institute, however, pegs the jobs loss from NAFTA at about 700,000 through 2010. (Trump in the past has cited EPI estimates.) New York, for instance, has lost about 400,000 manufacturing jobs since 1993, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics — and EPI estimates the job losses in New York from NAFTA to be about 34,000. So, clearly, something else is going that has affected manufacturing jobs.


Robert E. Scott, EPI’s chief economist, says his estimates show that trade with China and other Pacific Rim nations has accounted for 277,000 jobs lost in New York state. “For some countries, such as China and Japan, currency manipulation is a key driver of those processes,” Scott said. “The failure to include enforceable prohibitions on currency manipulation in these deals is a major flaw that has contributed significantly to the growth of trade deficits and job losses.”

EPI’s estimates are not universally accepted, but it is striking that even skeptics of free-trade agreements find Trump’s claims regarding NAFTA to be overblown.

Trump’s campaign never responds to fact-checking questions, but it could be that Trump is just using NAFTA as shorthand for all trade deals. “I don’t speak for Trump or defend his claims,” Scott said. “However, I do believe that NAFTA was the template for dozens of trade deals done by the United States and other countries in the post-’93 period.”

The Pinocchio Test

Whatever one thinks of the merits of NAFTA, it is important to get the history right. The trade deal was negotiated by a Republican president and passed with mostly Republican votes. Bill Clinton certainly pushed hard for its passage, even over the objections of many Democrats, but you cannot assign all of the blame — or give all of the credit — for NAFTA to Bill Clinton.

Compared to many of Trump’s misstatements, this error may not rank particularly high. But precision in language and knowledge of history is important for a would-be president. Trump undercuts his message on trade when he exaggerates the numbers and gets the history backwards.

Two Pinocchios






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[Edited on 1/28/2017 by pops42]

 
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