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Author: Subject: Merry Christmas Carrier employees

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 09:30 AM
quote:
The only thing wrong with this deal is that it doesn't go far enough, maintaining enough of the jobs and send a stronger signal to other companies.

What cost? What is the cost not to do it?

Laid off workers go on unemployment. After employer sponsored healthcare benefits expire for laid off workers, more subsidies get paid under the Affordable Care Act for their health insurance. Community taxes collected under pay roll taxes evaporate. School districts have less money. Property values fall. Been there, done that. We've been doing that for decades. Not working out too well is it. And you wonder why the rust belt voted Trump? You wonder why blue collar union members voted Trump? Go have a fancy economist tell them again that tax incentivizes for Carrier is a bad thing. You go tell that to the stores in the towns those workers live in. You go tell that to the emergency services people that rely on approved tax levies. Laid off workers don't vote for levies.

You see the domino effect? We can't afford to not do it.

I don't care if they want use the carrot or the stick. We must keep jobs here and we must get more jobs here from both foreign and US companies a like. Doesn't matter to us (US) if it is a corporate tax abatement program to keep people employed here, or tax and tariff penalty program for companies either moving operations outside our border or foreign companies bringing in foreign make goods.

Carrier have alot of government contracts or other UTI companies do alot of business with the government. Good. You tell them, "if they enjoy doing business with the federal government they should think twice about where they invest their next plant (here or foreign country)". You tell them "you better think twice before shuttering your US plant for one in Mexico". Is that a threat? Who the **** cares. This is serious **** here, you want to keep seeing this country going down the **** ter? Then you keep opposing deals like this. Maybe not in your back yard, ok. Who cares about the people in that far off community? This is one country and what happens in every town, city and state effects this country and it effects you whether you know it or not.

To think that this in any way is a bad things is almost beyond my comprehension. Will more companies test the government in order to get deals? If we (US) get what we want / need out of it who cares? We must not only protect existing jobs and build into these deals job expansion requirement or triggers - this is 100% the right direction and it doesn't matter if it is a Democrat or a Republican doing it.

Now, not only will Carrier stand to make less profit due to keeping the plant here with US labor, but they are at a competitive disadvantage to foreign made finished goods.

Look, the components that go into all these assemblies are made and have parts coming from all over the world, for now, we can't change that. First and foremost we need to keep as many of these manufacturing or assembly jobs that we have. Many of the parts that the Indiana plant works with are going to be foreign made, and that is what it is. We need to focus first on what we have and if that is as good as it gets for right now than so be it.

Now, Carrier Corp and it's dealers have to bid residential and commercial goods and services against some of their competitors that do not use any US manufacturing or assembly labor. That puts Carrier at a disadvantage.

So the next step must be to incentivize more foreign made assemblies to be done here. This will work to level the playing field and put less pressure on companies like Carrier to seek foreign labor if less of the competitors they are competing against are benefiting from foreign labor.

Forget what you were taught in the economics class and forget these lock-step economists that look at the world as a global pool of labor, where capital seeks it's biggest return regardless of national boundries. That my friends, is a race to the bottom, not what has happened here with Carrier.

We are Americans. We need to promote, protect and grow jobs in this country. The rest of the world will have to figure out their own situation because we aren't going to let them have our jobs any more.

Again, the only thing wrong here is that it didn't go far enough.


So you would agree that repealing Obamacare and privatizing Medicare are also bad ideas? If free market principles have failed in the economic realm and if we are now ready to embrace a mixed economy, should we not extend this rationale to our health and well being? Healthy workers improve productivity and the government should invest in their health. From the posts here it seems that after electing a Republican president and voting in Republican majorities in the Senate and House, there is growing interest in abandoning the central doctrine of the Republican party and that is privatization, privatization and more privatization.

Trump's tax plan totally favors the very rich. It's like he designed it for his family. The Republicans are very eager to pass this package and it will likely come first as it only requires 51 and not 60 votes in the Senate. Given that jobs are going to be saved at Carrier through government intervention, one can at least ask where were the rich? Last winter Charles Koch wrote an interesting essay where he agreed with every point Bernie Sanders was making as he campaigned, except for how these essential remedies should be financed. Koch argued that the private sector and not the public sector should be in charge of this. Now as America needs the Koch brother and other billionaires where are they? They don't seem to be doing anything other than waiting for their tax breaks at which point they will argue there are still too many regulations for them to invest in American jobs and services.

With the Carrier deal Trump might have stumbled onto something and hopefully he has the good sense to transfer any positive benefits into other sectors of America. If he does that Trump will be a very popular president.

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 09:44 AM
quote:



hmmmm, if that's the case, does not make sense why carrier decided to stay. Maybe I am missing something, but I think more might be revealed today.





Possibly we will learn more today. It would be good if ALL details are put out for the public to see. I don't know enough to speak to how much is required to be transparent and what does not need to be disclosed. We do know months ago Governor Pence could not give away enough to induce Carrier to stay.

We also have never seen Trump's tax returns. To believe he will release them after an audit is naive. We will never see them. That alone brings a certain amount of suspicion to what's in this deal & how he will govern.

Good for Carrier, but we need to see a big picture policy of how things will operate in the future re: dissuading companies to leave America or entice companies to come here. There can't be actions for a bunch of one-offs.

 

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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 10:28 AM
quote:
It is "mind bottling" ( <-- Will Ferrell nod ) to me how some turn this event into a negative.



I don't think it's negative, it's definitely good for the Indianapolis community and the 1000 workers. We just need to know at what cost to tax payers, both state and federal. Will companies threaten to leave for a better deal? Trump can't, and shouldn't, make deals with every single company that finds it more profitable elsewhere. Is this a pyrrhic victory?

I think there is also a surprise of the hypocrisy of a Republican President meddling in private business and state economics. Many are equating it with Nixon going to China, and it's an interesting parallel. It should be interesting moving forward whether this is morning in America or a total disaster.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 10:42 AM
quote:
quote:



hmmmm, if that's the case, does not make sense why carrier decided to stay. Maybe I am missing something, but I think more might be revealed today.





Possibly we will learn more today. It would be good if ALL details are put out for the public to see. I don't know enough to speak to how much is required to be transparent and what does not need to be disclosed. We do know months ago Governor Pence could not give away enough to induce Carrier to stay.

We also have never seen Trump's tax returns. To believe he will release them after an audit is naive. We will never see them. That alone brings a certain amount of suspicion to what's in this deal & how he will govern.

Good for Carrier, but we need to see a big picture policy of how things will operate in the future re: dissuading companies to leave America or entice companies to come here. There can't be actions for a bunch of one-offs.


I too an anxious to hear more.

They had said something to the effect of they could save $65 million in wages (not sure over what time span) by moving to Mexico. The tax benefit / incentive package is believed to be in the millions, but the new story I saw implied it was not an equal offset. But there are other factors that could be in play. Remaining a preferred government contractor / supplier. Public Relations for the company. Saving labor is one thing, but there is still the transportation of finished goods to consider and some allowance for damage to product that happens from such transportation. All other factors aside, it makes sense to have your final assembly location close to the market you will be selling the product into. Lots of factors go into it, will be good to know more of what all the moving pieces are.

I agree, there needs to be atleast a rough policy position on how a Trump administration is going to address these issues with other corporations going forward. I do think it needs to be flexible enough to allow for circumstances and negotiations, as in one company may get a better deal than another for a variety of reasons.

quote:
So you would agree that repealing Obamacare and privatizing Medicare are also bad ideas? If free market principles have failed in the economic realm and if we are now ready to embrace a mixed economy, should we not extend this rationale to our health and well being? Healthy workers improve productivity and the government should invest in their health. From the posts here it seems that after electing a Republican president and voting in Republican majorities in the Senate and House, there is growing interest in abandoning the central doctrine of the Republican party and that is privatization, privatization and more privatization.

Trump's tax plan totally favors the very rich. It's like he designed it for his family. The Republicans are very eager to pass this package and it will likely come first as it only requires 51 and not 60 votes in the Senate. Given that jobs are going to be saved at Carrier through government intervention, one can at least ask where were the rich? Last winter Charles Koch wrote an interesting essay where he agreed with every point Bernie Sanders was making as he campaigned, except for how these essential remedies should be financed. Koch argued that the private sector and not the public sector should be in charge of this. Now as America needs the Koch brother and other billionaires where are they? They don't seem to be doing anything other than waiting for their tax breaks at which point they will argue there are still too many regulations for them to invest in American jobs and services.

With the Carrier deal Trump might have stumbled onto something and hopefully he has the good sense to transfer any positive benefits into other sectors of America. If he does that Trump will be a very popular president.




I wouldn't say that repealing Obamacare is a bad idea. I don't know if fixes can be implemented within the program and if repeal is more a PR move than anything else, or if it is too much of a mess to be kept and fixed. I do think it is a mess. Do you?

I would be closer to wanting a single payer Medicare for all system than I am with giving the insurance companies more control and profit. My thing has always been that I believe everyone, no matter how rich or how poor, should always have some financial stake in their well-being and health. IE, if a person engages in risky behavior (be that smoking, unhealthy eating habits, participating in sports with high chance of injuries) should bear some burden for the cost of their care for any condition or problem that arises out of the said risky behavior. If you put yourself at risk then you should have to foot some of the bill to fix whatever has gone wrong with you. If we could have a federal system where people are held financially accountable for some of their decisions then I could go for that. I want people to have some meaningful skin in the game for their own care, not just have it 100% funded and subsidized by the federal government.

I'm not sure what you are saying on the rich Americans part or what you want them to do. I suspect most of these people own or run corporations, or many corporations, they invest. Banks and financial institutions rely on their deposits so money can be pumped out for loans and working capital. They buy and sell real estate, often owning more than one home (and paying property taxes and the maintenance on multiple homes). They travel and spend money at resorts. They give to charity. They dine out. They shop at grocery stores and shop online for Christmas gifts. They buy new cars and trucks at the auto dealerships down the road. If you are implying that somehow rich people just sit on their ass and wait to pay less taxes come April I'm pretty sure you are mistaken. A wealthy person's impact in our economy is in fact magnified and often more significant that what any number of people on this forum or that forum do with their money.

As for Trump being popular, I think this is still tricky. The less popular he is with traditional Republicans (the ones that didn't want to support him anyway) and the more popular he is with Democrats (atleast privately) will likely equal a successful 4 years. If he falls in line with conventional Republican thinking then we will have a new President in 4 years.

[Edited on 12/1/2016 by nebish]

 

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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 10:44 AM
I guess i'll wait and see how many dollars per job saved Trump is going to spend vs how many dollars Obama spent per job in the auto bailout (keeping in mind a lot of that was payed back)

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 10:57 AM
quote:
I guess i'll wait and see how many dollars per job saved Trump is going to spend vs how many dollars Obama spent per job in the auto bailout (keeping in mind a lot of that was payed back)


One difference that was discussed back during the auto bailout was that if GM would go bankrupt, another company would have to fill the void of cars that GM was producing. Either by buying GM and it's assets and building cars in their existing or by other auto companies upping production to keep the supply chain full of cars that was reduced when GM no longer could do so.

So, it would've been short term pain and lots of it, but many of the laid off workers likely could've found work building cars at the same plant they were previously employed at if another company bought it, or they could relocate to another plant that would likely be adding a 3rd shift to build more cars. And possibly at new plants eventually built by remaining auto companies, again, to fill the void left by GM.

Unless the new cars were going to be built in Mexico, Canada, Japan, Korea, etc at that point we would be down **** creek without a paddle, so it would be imperative for the federal government to take steps to protect auto workers in this country.

In this case, Carrier closes up shop at the Indianapolis, these workers do not have any other job to remain hopeful for. The product is made outside our boarder, the competitors in the field don't need to increase any domestic production so they don't need to hire these laid off workers. The workers will use TRA money and get educated in a field that probably pays less and unfortunately may already be oversaturated with prospective applicants...no hope.

What I'm saying is that I think there is more of a case that if a US company goes bankrupt, and assuming there is still a demand for the goods/services that company offered, eventually those workers can be absorbed back into that same industry. If a US company outsources there becomes little to no natural sequence of events that is going to land them a job comparable to what they had. So then it is almost a better "investment" saving jobs from outsourcing than it is saving them from bankruptcy. One man's opinion.

[Edited on 12/1/2016 by nebish]

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 11:02 AM
i always appreciate a well reasoned response, they are so rare.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 11:17 AM
quote:
i always appreciate a well reasoned response, they are so rare.


I watched the first 8 episodes of South Park 20 last night. Going to save the last couple for next week.

But I couldn't help but think about this place with all the internet trolling.

I remember when we used to have lots of good exchanges of ideas here. Remember, I remember, that was great, oh yea, ...I remember....

 

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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 11:52 AM
Interesting thoughtful take, nebish.

[Edited on 12/1/2016 by porkchopbob]

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 12:16 PM
The devil is in the details. I'm sure whatever deal trump made was unethical, just to look like a hero temporarily. I believe he will leave the office of president in disgrace, sooner rather than later. and pence will be president.

[Edited on 12/1/2016 by pops42]

 

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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 01:21 PM

Pretty soon it will be time for me to upgrade my ac and I will definitely be quoting a carrier unit and will gladly pay a few bucks more. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2017-2018 year they sell more units.


 

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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 07:32 PM
Here is a run down from the Indy Star

quote:
Trump celebrates improbable Carrier deal

James Briggs and Chelsea Schneider , IndyStar 7:05 p.m. EST December 1, 2016

President-elect Donald Trump waves hello before speaking at Carrier, Thursday, December 1, 2016, about keeping jobs in America. Kelly Wilkinson/IndyStar

When Donald Trump said he would save Carrier jobs, he didn't actually mean it.

President-elect Donald Trump on Thursday shared an anecdote that made it even more improbable — if that's possible — for him to stand in front of hundreds of Carrier Corp. employees who suddenly have a future with the company.

Trump never actually planned to save their jobs.

Trump and Vice President-elect Mike Pence returned to Indianapolis to celebrate Carrier's surprising decision to keep about 1,000 jobs in the city. A small, hand-picked selection of Carrier's staff enthusiastically greeted Trump and Pence, who thanked them for their hard work and praised Carrier CEO Greg Hayes for changing his plan.

Then Trump revealed one of the most surprising details yet in this story about Carrier's resurrected westside factory: He didn't expect the company to cancel its plan to relocate 1,400 Indianapolis jobs to Mexico. When Trump campaigned on a promise to keep Carrier in Indianapolis, he wasn't talking about Carrier.

"I said Carrier will never leave," Trump said. "But that was a euphemism. I was talking about Carrier like all the other companies from here on in, because they made the decision (to move jobs to Mexico)."

Like experts who followed the Carrier news, Trump said he assumed that "ship had sailed." When he saw a person on the evening news taking his Carrier promise seriously, Trump said he thought, "I didn't mean it quite that way."

INDIANAPOLIS STAR

As Trump touts Carrier deal, others with endangered jobs wonder, 'What about us?'

Yet, here Trump was, flying into town as the president-elect and a savior for hundreds of families who are unexpectedly looking forward to a joyous holiday season and years of livable-wage manufacturing jobs. As part of an agreement with the incoming Trump administration and the state, Carrier has pledged to maintain an average wage of $30.91 an hour for the jobs that are being retained.

Jeffery Blackford, a 25-year Carrier worker who attended Thursday's event, called Trump’s announcement a “Christmas miracle."

"If they actually happen, we got one today," he said. “Hopefully this right here will be a start of a new beginning, where we can stop manufacturing from leaving this country.”

Sam Byrd, who has worked at the plant for 11 years, said he’s not a supporter of politicians in general.

“The reason is because politicians usually promise a lot of things to get in office,” Byrd said. “But once they get in office, they don’t follow through on what they promise. But kudos to Donald Trump. He gained a lot of points with me and respect. Because he campaigned and said these jobs would not be leaving America and today he followed through.”

Byrd said he doesn’t think Trump’s actions on Carrier were for show.

“When a company is going to lose 1,400 jobs and now it’s going to stand to lose maybe 300, the proof is in the pudding,” Byrd said.

Byrd's reference to impending layoffs at the Carrier plant was an acknowledgment that not all is rosy. Neither Pence nor Trump mentioned that Carrier still plans to eliminate hundreds of jobs. A spokeswoman for the company did not immediately respond to questions about how many layoffs there will be and when they will happen.
Vice President-elect Mike Pence is all smiles as heBuy Photo

Vice President-elect Mike Pence is all smiles as he speaks at Carrier during an event at the Indianapolis factory announcing that jobs will stay in the US, Thursday, December 1, 2016. After speaking, Pence introduced President-elect Donald Trump, to whom Pence gave the credit for the good news. (Photo: Kelly Wilkinson/IndyStar)

Pence lauded Carrier's decision to "stay and grow," even though the company's workforce will retract. Trump asserted that Carrier's Indianapolis workforce would be "going to go up substantially" from a pledged retention of 1,069 jobs — but that can't happen until the company cuts down to that level from the 1,400 people it employs.

Trump and Pence also made no mention of the $7 million incentive package Indiana offered Carrier — $6 million in tax credits and $1 million in training grants.

Instead, the president-elect and vice president-elect talked about Carrier's bold decision to stay and the workers who "gave (Carrier) the confidence to double down on the future of this company and the future of the people of this state," as Pence said.

Trump might not have expected to save Carrier's jobs. But he was the undisputed hero among Carrier workers Thursday.

“Too many of our jobs are leaving the country," said Edward Robinson, a 13-year Carrier employee who attended the event, "and it has to stop."

Trump promised just that.

"These companies are not going to be leaving anymore," Trump said. "They're not going to be taking people's hearts out. They're not going to be announcing, like they did at Carrier, that they're closing up and moving to Mexico over 1,100 jobs."

Incentive agreement

The Indiana Economic Development Corporation offered Carrier:

Up to $5 million in conditional tax credits over 10 years based on Carrier’s plan to keep 1,069 jobs with an average wage of $30.91 an hour in Indianapolis.
Up to $1 million in training grants to support workforce development.
Up to $1 million from the Hoosier Business Investment tax credit subject to Carrier’s future investment in its Indianapolis plant.

Source: IEDC

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 07:38 PM
Did anyone watch or listen today? Kind of strange the way it started off, with Trump saying he never promised or expected Carrier jobs in Indy to stay. Trump implied that when he said things like that it meant companies in the future won't be doing that...because the Carrier ship would've already sailed, right?

Trump said he was watching the nightly news (but wouldn't tell us which one because he doesn't like them 'not one bit') and saw a Carrier employee on the news say that he didn't think Carrier would actually close that Indy plant because Trump said they wouldn't. Trump gave that worker (not in the audience, his father was though) the credit for prompting him to pick up the phone and call Carrier's CEO.

The state, congressional members in both Indiana and Indiana reps at the federal level along with Governor Pence's administration had rolled out proposals to get Carrier to stay already. Kind of standard operating procedure for these kinds of things. Carrier had declined those appeals...until now.

So what changed then? Is it as simple as the charasmatic Trump calls the Carrier CEO...is it just his ability to speak on a business level in the vein of "I know what you are facing, but we have to make this thing work"?

I saw a Indiana US Sentate member (D) on with Brian Williams say that it has been speculated that a 35% tariff threat was part of Carrier's change of heart.

Trump did say, rather defiantly that companies will not be leaving the US without consequences. Saying that on the campaign trail is one thing, saying it in front of the CEO of a multinational company that just agreed to keep nearly 1100 out of 1400 workers at a US plant with the world wondering how, why and what's next is another. I was listening on CNBC and needless to say they were worried about such a comment. I loved it.

I think just as important to saving these jobs is that there is supposed to be $16 million dollar improvements made to the plant. Trump implied the Carrier CEO said it could be higher, but was only comfortable saying $16m. Trump of course said "it will be more than that".

 

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  posted on 12/1/2016 at 08:01 PM
I don't think anyone here really knows me. Been happy to met a few of you, but I don't think anyone really knows me. My passion for finding and buying things made in USA to some extent really controls who I am. Try being my wife. Try running an automotive repair shop. Try building a house with that mentality, which we did 2 years ago. Try being the builder that had to work with me. We did have some set backs in terms of finding everything USA, but there were alot of surprising triumphs as well. I'd be more than happy to share any of our experiences on that. If you are looking for made in USA switches, outlets, can lights, plumbing fixtures, you name it...I can help!

I preach buying things made in the USA to friends, family and strangers alike. Preach might be too strong of a word, but I definitely try and get the message out to people.

I want to address one of the biggest misconceptions about things made in USA. That they are more expensive, somebody here in this thread said they wondered if now Carrier prices would be higher for consumers.

I was just at Lowes tonight shopping for some brass pipe fittings, you know for natural gas or propane plumbing or for water lines. So I knew that many of the Watts brand fittings are made in USA, not all, but many. What do I find at Lowes, here they are changing out the Watts line for the Brass Craft. I am familiar with Brass Craft as they make the shut off valves that go under your sinks and toliets - those are made in USA too. So I pick up the Brass Craft package and you can just tell sometimes when an item is imported by the packaging. I mean you pay attention to this stuff and you can tell. It had that more rigid crinkly sounding plastic bag sound as opposed to the smoother feeling plastic bag that often signals a domestic sourced item. So the Brass Craft item was China. Right there on the rack next to the old stock USA Watts fittings. And you know what the price was exactly the same. It's a small example, but I can not tell you how many times I see it over and over.

Don't be fooled into thinking that things made in the USA always cost more. Sometimes it is just the retailer, the distributor or the manufacturer keeping the additional profit. That is probably the biggest sin, that they don't even pass the savings onto the consumer. But I encourage anyone to seek out items that are made in the USA. They are out there in your retail stores and online. And it is really rewarding to find the things you want and having it say Made in USA. Edit - or Assembled in USA, still, better than the alternative.

Obviously I think this is an important issue. When I see Carrier say they are going to keep 1000+ jobs here rather than sending them to Mexico, I get excited. When I see a President say the things that no corporate owned politician would ever say, I get excited. Trump isn't running any more. He doesn't have to fire up the blue collar cast offs any more. So why be combative towards corporate America, why talk tough now? I can only hope it leads to the birth, or rebirth, of American Economic Nationalism. And I'll be the biggest cheerleader.

[Edited on 12/2/2016 by nebish]

 

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  posted on 12/2/2016 at 11:24 AM
Interesting statistics and examples on why manufacturing jobs are important for this country and our workers in bold. More challenges ahead, hope the administration has a team ready to work on this issue and not just a one-and-done Carrier victory lap.

quote:
Trump Saved Jobs at Carrier, but More Midwest Jobs Are in Jeopardy

By NELSON D. SCHWARTZNOV. 30, 2016

In tiny Sellersburg, Ind., just across the border from Kentucky, Manitowoc Foodservice is in the final stages of closing a factory that makes beverage dispensers and ice machines and is laying off 84 workers.

The company is moving production to Mexico.

Just 100 miles away, President-elect Donald J. Trump will appear on Thursday with workers at Carrier’s Indianapolis plant to boast of his success in saving at least 1,000 jobs from moving to Mexico.

The truth across the Rust Belt is that there are more Manitowoc Foodservices than Carriers. The layoffs and closing in Sellersburg follow similar shutdowns by Manitowoc in Ohio and Wisconsin.

“I’ll give Trump his due, but I hope he and the American people and Congress don’t forget about all these other jobs going to Mexico,” said Chuck Jones, the president of Local 1999 of the United Steelworkers in Indianapolis, which represents Carrier. “Down the pike, a lot more are going to be moving out.”

Indeed, Rexnord, the ball bearing factory in Indianapolis where Mr. Jones went to work straight out of high school nearly 40 years ago, said in October it would be moving to Mexico. It is just a mile from the Carrier plant.

The mayor of Indianapolis, Joe Hogsett, and Senator Joe Donnelly, both Democrats, tried to exert Trumplike pressure to force Rexnord to rethink its plans, but so far the company has not shown any sign it will change course.

“On a personal level at Carrier, it is huge,” said Jerry N. Conover, director of the Indiana Business Research Center at the Kelley School of Business at Indiana University. “But by itself, the disappearance or retention of 1,000 jobs is a small slice of the total economy in Indiana.”

“I think there will be continued downward pressure on employment in factories because of trends toward automation especially and moving to lower-cost areas for production,” he added.

Carrier, in its official statement on the deal on Wednesday, said that it thought the agreement it negotiated with Mr. Trump and Vice President-elect Mike Pence “benefits our workers, the state of Indiana and our company.” But it said that incentives provided by Indiana, where Mr. Pence is governor, “were an important consideration.” It added that “the forces of globalization will continue to require solutions for the long-term competitiveness of the U.S. and American workers.”

Those 1,000 Carrier jobs saved represent just 0.2 percent of total manufacturing employment in the state. And despite a rebound since the aftermath of the Great Recession, at just over half a million positions, factory employment in Indiana this year is still down by more than 20 percent since 2000.

The good news is that Indiana has been doing well economically, with an unemployment rate below the national average and steady gains in employment like food service, retail and logistics.

But those service jobs pay well below the $20 to $25 an hour that veteran Carrier employees — with only a high school diploma — can earn building furnaces and fan coils in Indianapolis. The typical manufacturing worker in the state earns $59,000 a year, about $20,000 a year more than the typical service job.

And for less credentialed workers, that margin is the difference between having a shot at a middle-class life, including owning a home and sending children to college, and having to struggle to make ends meet.

“These are truly irreplaceable jobs,” said Scott Paul, president of the Alliance for American Manufacturing, an advocacy group, and a native of Rensselaer, Ind. “A manufacturing job is one of the only ladders to fulfilling the American dream for a worker without a college degree.”

“A manufacturing worker who loses their job at Carrier will be resigned to facing a lower standard of living and leaner retirement years,” Mr. Paul added.
“Carrier is special because it happened at the right time and the right place and it gained a high profile. But obviously, Donald Trump and Mike Pence can’t intervene every time a plant closes.”

The economic fortunes for this group have been shrinking for years, which is a major reason the story of Mr. Trump and Carrier has resonated so deeply.

In Indiana, in particular, as in other so-called Rust Belt states, there are a lot of people who are less educated: Just 16.5 percent of the state’s residents ages 25 to 64 have a bachelor’s degree, half the rate for the country over all. And while about 30 percent have an associate degree or some college, the bulk of Indiana residents, 44 percent, have only a high school diploma — or less.

Nor has manufacturing remained the sole domain of whites. It provides a crucial source of higher-paying jobs for minorities.

In the popular imagination, the Indianapolis factory where 1,400 Carrier workers build furnaces and fan coils looks like a scene out of “The Deer Hunter” or “Norma Rae.” Blue-collar guys walking through the plant gate, lunch pail in hand, or white women barely getting by after years on the line.

But the reality at the Carrier plant that Mr. Trump will visit on Thursday is very different. About half the workers are African-American, making it a much more diverse workplace than many white-collar settings.

Women account for a substantial portion of the work force as well, but the wages are anything but subsistence: over $20 an hour plus benefits for workers with just a high school diploma. That is an almost unheard-of level of pay for Indiana workers with that level of education in other sectors like food service and retail or even many health care jobs.

Carol Bigbee, 59, who has worked at Carrier for over 13 years, earns $22 an hour. Her daughter has a bachelor’s degree and works in a medical lab, but earns one-third less.

“You have to be really blessed to find a job that pays that kind of money,” she said.


In southern Indiana, where the Manitowoc Foodservice factory will close next year, good-paying blue-collar jobs are just as rare.

But Rich Sheffer, vice president for investor relations and treasurer at the company, said it had little choice but to relocate to Mexico.

“This company has 20 percent excess manufacturing capacity,” he said. A few of the jobs are being transferred to Covington, Tenn., he said, but the Sellersburg plant “would have required a massive investment in automation. And we have to deal with profit margins that are trailing the industry.”

Mr. Sheffer said his company’s situation was different from that of Carrier, which has profitable operations in Indiana but could make more money in Mexico.

“Our motivation is completely different, but,” he added, “we haven’t been contacted by anybody in the Trump administration.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/30/business/economy/trump-saved-jobs-at-carr ier-but-more-midwest-jobs-are-in-jeopardy.html




[Edited on 12/2/2016 by nebish]

 

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  posted on 12/2/2016 at 12:43 PM
Anyone see the hypocrisy in candidate Trump's own words on the stump versus his intended actions and victory dance as president-elect? Guess he doesn't drink his own medicine. For those on the right, don't criticize the article sources before you read Trumps's own words. Then you can dance around how he campaigned and how he plans on governing.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/11/indiana-manufacturing-deal-trum p-pence-carrier

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/308153-dem-group-trump-car rier-deal-is-exactly-what-he-railed-against

 

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  posted on 12/2/2016 at 03:44 PM
quote:
Anyone see the hypocrisy in candidate Trump's own words on the stump versus his intended actions and victory dance as president-elect? Guess he doesn't drink his own medicine. For those on the right, don't criticize the article sources before you read Trumps's own words. Then you can dance around how he campaigned and how he plans on governing.


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/11/indiana-manufacturing-deal-trum p-pence-carrier

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/308153-dem-group-trump-car rier-deal-is-exactly-what-he-railed-against


The consequences part, the retribution part is what I'm really waiting for. Both links quote the same statement and he said consequences. And he said that yesterday. That is where the rubber will meet the road, if a US company is going to be penalized for bringing in finished goods with foreign labor, I assume after given the opportunity to stay here, with tax incentivizes or what have you. If there are no consequences, no teeth, no "stick" none of this can work.

I am personally not bothered by Trump's campaign words vs what has happened with Carrier.

He was right. They do have the money, these companies. They don't need it necessarily. But to ask any company to stay with higher overhead costs and risk losing marketshare or smaller margins is not something any company is going to willingly agree to. Could they accept less profit margin, well yeah, they could, would they? In the final analysis, no, not unless something on the other end of the scale is going to balance it back out, or get it closer to making sense.

This is what I've always said; businesses in general and certainly not large multi-national corporations do not exist so they can provide a place of work for people of this country or that country. They do not exist to provide better lives for their workers. They exist to produce a good or service while seeking financial return on principle and profit for it's owners all while eyeing growth and more ways to be more successful in both sales and profit. That is the what they exist for.

It then becomes the government's job to ensure that business does have the desired positive effect on our citizens employed there and by extension, our society, our communities, our states and ultimately our federal government.

Business is not going to operate in a "what is good for America" philosophy, so it must be the role of our government to do that.

This has sorely been absent in prior Republican and Democrat administrations. This campaign featured two candidates who spoke to the issue like few have before them, both Senator Sanders and Donald Trump and both saw huge popularity for many reasons, but I think this jobs/out sourcing issue was key among them. Of course Senator Sanders was fiercely against corporate welfare, and you have links there that have Donald Trump saying, or pretending he is as well. But at the end of the day, I think it is positive and correct action, IF, we - as in the United States, gets the net result out of it that we want. Are we getting something in the vein of "what is good for America"? If we give the corporations their carrots and we both end up with something we are happy with, then win-win. If the corporations do as they see they must, and we do not end up with what we want then there should be "consequences" and we win, they lose. We win with additional revenue incoming from their levied tax or tariff. We win because the bar has been set, other corporations now have a new thing to consider when outsourcing, will it in the end really be worth it? And we win if it in fact changes behavior, not only for those companies on the fence of outsourcing, but for those companies currently producing outside our border, if they want to come inside, avoid the tax or tariff and enjoy a favorable business environment to produce and sell, in this the best consumer market in the world.

This is just one story, this Carrier issue. And they didn't save as many jobs as I would like. Maybe that is part of the negotiation, and you can't always get what you want. But there is still tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs to try and save still. Companies that we need to stay here, grow here. Some of these companies are facing very big challenges from competitors and are considering moving in order to remain viable, perhaps remain in existence. Others have healthy balance sheets and are still faced with competitive challenges, but need to remain ahead of the curve to stay financially healthy. There are many variables that effect a company's decision to move here or there. Trump said that there will be a team or a group of people who is looking into this issue, implying that he or Pence won't be the only ones involved going forward. This is good news and I will be looking for more out of them. I'm sure the press will be doing the same.

 

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  posted on 12/2/2016 at 11:55 PM
quote:
quote:
I started following politics and current affairs when I was 14. I'm now 46. That entire time I've heard the gospel of the sacred sanctity of the free market and government just needs to get of the way and stay out of the way.



In many cases, the government should stay out of the way. Namely (particularly) with needless regulation, affirmative action, red tape, confiscatory taxation, fees, licensing, etc.......Long list. As a business operator, I deal with these issues daily, and can guarantee that much of my time is wasted in non-productive tasks that have NOTHING to do with the profitability or well being of my business, nor my employees.

I fail to see how an effort to keep some jobs here is in quite the same realm as the above. Folks have been complaining about "outsourcing" for years, and as soon as someone starts taking action that's not right, either?







"The free market has been sorting it out and America’s been losing,” Mr. Pence added, as Mr. Trump interjected, “Every time, every time.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/01/business/economy/trump-carrier-pence-jobs .html

If Biden and Obama said that your head would explode right off your shoulders. Tell me it wouldn't.

 

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  posted on 12/3/2016 at 08:29 AM
Fair trade, not free trade. For example it would take an importing country 6 or more months of red tape rules and inspection in order to sell a bottle of shampoo in china. China can import that same bottle into the US virtually overnight and ship it to walmart for immediate sale. How is this fair?

 

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  posted on 12/4/2016 at 10:32 AM
Not quite as many jobs saved as we were led to believe. Disappointed! Build those damn coils here!




quote:
To get the higher number, Carrier and Trump are counting 300 jobs that weren't at risk of being shipped to Mexico.

Carrier confirmed to CNNMoney on Friday that it never planned to move 300 administrative and engineering positions. Those jobs are at a different Indianapolis location, separate from the plant with the 1,400 factory worker jobs that has been in the headlines recently.

Under the deal with Trump, Carrier agreed to keep the furnace part of the plant open, saving 800 jobs in Indianapolis. But it's still moving 600 jobs to Mexico to make fan coils.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/02/news/companies/trump-carrier-plant-mexico/


 

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  posted on 12/4/2016 at 12:03 PM
Not sure if it is true, since he hasn't released his taxes, but the news has reported that he has stock in Carrier's parent company. If so, let the conflicts of interest begin!

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 12/4/2016 at 12:20 PM
Well, if anyone owns mutual funds, we probably all have stock in Carrier's parent corp.

But the debate would be, Carrier is arguably less profitable by keeping the jobs in Indy? That's not good for earnings and stock appreciation. Or is the PR they get out of this enough to offset that?

Really this needs to just be the beginning. If there are no other examples of saving jobs at Carrier in the near future or during his Presidency then this whole thing will be just a charade.

 

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  posted on 12/5/2016 at 09:54 PM
Anyone know what the "consequences" will be for Trump clothes made overseas ?

 

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  posted on 12/5/2016 at 10:58 PM
quote:
Anyone know what the "consequences" will be for Trump clothes made overseas ?


I should be invited to Trump Tower to speak to Mr Trump on this. All of my clothes are made in the USA except for band and college football shirts.

He needs to stand firm on his tariff issue. He needs to find enough Democrats that will support it and flip some Republicans. Hell, Bill Clinton had Democrat congressmen in tears on the floor of the Senate voting against their beliefs to pass NAFTA. He needs to lead on that issue and not let Paul Ryan or other leading Republicans control the narrative.

 

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  posted on 12/6/2016 at 07:04 AM
Anyone know what the "consequences" will be for Trump clothes made overseas ?

 

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