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Author: Subject: A Question for Black Sabbath fans

Maximum Peach





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  posted on 10/27/2013 at 07:14 AM
I have a question for the serious Black Sabbath fans here.

On one of the other music sites that I belong to, we have been doing a thread where we have been collectively reviewing each album starting with the first and proceeding through the Ozzy, Dio, Ian Gillan, Glenn Hughes and Tony Martin as vocalist periods, and eventually ending with the most recent one 13.

Several of the Tony Martin albums were ones that I purchased but never got around to seriously listening to . I have been pleasantly surprised to find that each one has some truly worthy stuff to be heard, and I am reminded of the fact that Tony Iommi is truly a great guitarist.

And fortunately, my speakers seem to be holding up nicely...

Which leads me to my question.

I'm thinking most Sabs fans have heard the Ozzy and Dio albums but I am wondering if you have a favorite among the later ones like , Born Again, Seventh Star, Eternal Idol, Headless Cross, Dehumanizer, Cross Purposes, Forbidden or even the Tony Iommi solo albums ?

Feel free to post any Sabbath related comments as well....





[Edited on 10/29/2013 by les_paul_sunburst]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 10/27/2013 at 07:39 AM
Dehumanizer has Dio on vocs

IMO, Born Again is horrific. I think I listened to it once, maybe twice tops and gave it away.

Hughes is a great vocalist though.. I believe he did Eternal Idol?

 

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  posted on 10/27/2013 at 07:43 AM
Wasn't very impressed by "Born Again". I thought Ian Gillan was a bad fit. Liked some of the songs but production was very poor too. Also probably the ugliest cover concept. My brother went to see them at the famous Reading Festival in the UK and noticed that lot's of people from both the Deep Purple and the Black Sabbath fanbase were everything but pleased by this doomed marriage.

I enjoyed both albums with Tony Martin. Sounded like old school Sabbath but with a vocalist much a kin to Ronnie James Dio. That was probably the problem with this line-up. Tony sounded too much like a poor man's Ronnie James Dio. I saw this line-up live. Although Cozy Powell is a giant in the drum world i definitely prefer Bill Ward's drum sound for Sabbath.

The Sabbath with Glenn Hughes album "Seventh Star" is probably my favorite Sabbath album except for the Ozzy and Dio years. But it's also a Sabbath album with the most non-typical Sabbath sound. Not so heavy but a lot more bluesy. This was probably because it was initially planned as a Tony Iommi solo album but the record company prefered to use the Sabbath name. The subsequent tour was a train wreck and short-lived.

And i stil haven't bought 13 yet.....

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 10/27/2013 at 07:51 AM
quote:
Dehumanizer has Dio on vocs

IMO, Born Again is horrific. I think I listened to it once, maybe twice tops and gave it away.

Hughes is a great vocalist though.. I believe he did Eternal Idol?


Yes...Dehumanizer featured the return of Dio (for just one album) and it is definitely an underapprciated album IMO. Some nice stuff that I have just now discovered .

I agree that Born Again is a mess. Ian Gillan just was not right for the band and the sound is horrible....muddy, murky, and bass heavy. A shame as there are a handful of good songs on it. You just can't hear them .

Actually 7th Star was the album with Glenn Hughes on vocals. IT was meant to be Tony Iommi's first solo album so it has a real contemporary guitar sound but Glenn and Tony compliment each other quite well . I was pleasantly surprised to find that I like this one a lot .

Eternal Idol was the fiirst one with Tony Martin as vocalist ...

Yep. I know. Obsessive fan here...

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 10/27/2013 at 07:57 AM
quote:
Wasn't very impressed by "Born Again". I thought Ian Gillan was a bad fit. Liked some of the songs but production was very poor too. Also probably the ugliest cover concept. My brother went to see them at the famous Reading Festival in the UK and noticed that lot's of people from both the Deep Purple and the Black Sabbath fanbase were everything but pleased by this doomed marriage.

I enjoyed both albums with Tony Martin. Sounded like old school Sabbath but with a vocalist much a kin to Ronnie James Dio. That was probably the problem with this line-up. Tony sounded too much like a poor man's Ronnie James Dio. I saw this line-up live. Although Cozy Powell is a giant in the drum world i definitely prefer Bill Ward's drum sound for Sabbath.

The Sabbath with Glenn Hughes album "Seventh Star" is probably my favorite Sabbath album except for the Ozzy and Dio years. But it's also a Sabbath album with the most non-typical Sabbath sound. Not so heavy but a lot more bluesy. This was probably because it was initially planned as a Tony Iommi solo album but the record company prefered to use the Sabbath name. The subsequent tour was a train wreck and short-lived.

And i stil haven't bought 13 yet.....


I was writing a reply to Chuck when you posted this so I did not see it until I was finished but I pretty much agree with everything you just wrote.

Yes. Born Again and Ian on vocals must have looked good on paper but ....

And I forgot to mention the album cover ....Holy Spinal Tap !

I bet that concert was an event for all the wrong reasons....

I like the Tony Martin albums as well. Whether by influence, or possibly genetic attributes, he sounded a lot like Dio and I think that might have turned some folks off but still...

there are some nice songs here and there on the Martin albums IMO

And I quite like 13....solid album considering how many years it was since they had last collaborated together



[Edited on 10/27/2013 by les_paul_sunburst]

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 10/27/2013 at 09:15 AM
The deluxe edition of "Eternal Idol" is worth picking up as you get a bonus disc of the songs as they were originally recorded with Ray Gillen on vocals.
 

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  posted on 10/28/2013 at 06:01 PM
I like all the Tony Martin albums. they really don't get the credit they deserve. I like Headless Cross and Cross Purposes better than Dehumanizer (even though I'm just now noticing the Cross theme is redundant). Dio lost his melodic style in the early 90's and was trying to sound evil or darker or something. I don't know, but it seemed to start with Dehumanizer. I was glad he got it back later on. TYR is a pretty cool record too. None of them lack for classic Iommi riffs.

If Sabbath had gone straight from Dio to Tony Martin he might be more relevant to Sabbath fans, but instead they messed around with ex Deep Purple singers Gillan and Hughes, and a cast of revolving musicians, and fans found more coherent and cohesive bands in the 80's to fill the heavy void in their lives. By the time Iommi pulled it together with Martin it was too late even though they made some great music.

As for Seventh Star, I see it as an Iommi solo album and I like it quite a bit. It's too bad Glenn Hughes was so messed up on drugs, they could have had a good band together.

 

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  posted on 10/28/2013 at 06:14 PM
Dehumanizer may be one of the most disappointing albums I've ever bought. After the peaks Dio + Sabbath hit with Heaven & Hell and Mob Rules, I was like "what is this?" when I bought Dehumanizer. I still saw them on that tour (thankfully limited to 4 songs from Dehumanizer) and they sounded very good live, but that record just wasn't at all what I was expecting. The melodic but heavy songwriting from a decade earlier wasn't there. I know others liked it.

Their next reunion in 2007 as Heaven & Hell (plus the other 3 new Dio/Sab songs on the Dio Years compilation) were slightly better, but not one song was as good as the worst from H&H or MR records, IMO.

It doesn't take anything away from what they accomplished in 1980-1982.

 

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  posted on 10/28/2013 at 06:27 PM
quote:
Dehumanizer may be one of the most disappointing albums I've ever bought. After the peaks Dio + Sabbath hit with Heaven & Hell and Mob Rules, I was like "what is this?" when I bought Dehumanizer. I still saw them on that tour (thankfully limited to 4 songs from Dehumanizer) and they sounded very good live, but that record just wasn't at all what I was expecting. The melodic but heavy songwriting from a decade earlier wasn't there. I know others liked it.

Their next reunion in 2007 as Heaven & Hell (plus the other 3 new Dio/Sab songs on the Dio Years compilation) were slightly better, but not one song was as good as the worst from H&H or MR records, IMO.

It doesn't take anything away from what they accomplished in 1980-1982.


I agree whole-heartedly. The H&H album was decent but still a bit of a let down. I thought that after playing those classic songs on the road for so long before the album, that they'd come up with some classic sounding tunes but they didn't. I like 13 better than The Devil You Know.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 10/28/2013 at 07:56 PM
quote:
I like all the Tony Martin albums. they really don't get the credit they deserve. I like Headless Cross and Cross Purposes better than Dehumanizer (even though I'm just now noticing the Cross theme is redundant). Dio lost his melodic style in the early 90's and was trying to sound evil or darker or something. I don't know, but it seemed to start with Dehumanizer. I was glad he got it back later on. TYR is a pretty cool record too. None of them lack for classic Iommi riffs.

If Sabbath had gone straight from Dio to Tony Martin he might be more relevant to Sabbath fans, but instead they messed around with ex Deep Purple singers Gillan and Hughes, and a cast of revolving musicians, and fans found more coherent and cohesive bands in the 80's to fill the heavy void in their lives. By the time Iommi pulled it together with Martin it was too late even though they made some great music.

As for Seventh Star, I see it as an Iommi solo album and I like it quite a bit. It's too bad Glenn Hughes was so messed up on drugs, they could have had a good band together.



Cool and I agree.

Each Tony Martin album has some nice tracks to recommend it and all have of them feature some great riffs and soloing from Tony. But I think you're right that by the time Iommi settled in with Martin as vocalist he had lost a lot of his original audience thanks to the Dio/Gillan/Hughes experiments.

7th Star was actually supposed to be Tony's first solo album but Warner Brothers pressured him into billing it as a Black Sabbath album in a bid for more sales.

Tony believed that Sabbath had run it's course and he certainly did not want to appear to be a musical one trick pony as a guitarist, or worse, a well respected anachronism, so 7th Star was an attempt to contemporize his guitar style and to show that he could produce a hard rock album that could stand tall next to the other hard rock outfits of the day, without having to draw on his already "patented" Sabbath sound, which is ironic as most of those same guitarists would have to note Iommi as at least a passing influence.

Once I was able to appreciate what Tony was trying to do, I was able to see 7th Star in a totally different light and have to admit that I now enjoy this album very much.

Glenn's voice and Tony's guitar compliment each other very well. And the guitar work here, both chordwork and solowise is just incredible ! The songs are also well written, with some typically awesome Iommi riffage. I think that Tony proved on 7th Star that he could hang with the young dogs and even teach them a thing or two.

But yeah...Glenn was a drug induced trainwreck by the end of the sessions and incapable of touring behind the album which further helped to sink it .

[Edited on 10/29/2013 by les_paul_sunburst]

 

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Cause some day we will meet again"



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  posted on 10/28/2013 at 11:32 PM
i rally like the iommi solo albums. there are good stuff on most sabbath albums, other than forbidden, but out of the martin era i love cross purposes
 

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  posted on 10/29/2013 at 03:30 AM
Yes, I did see "Satan" after playing "Fairies wear Boots" at 75 speed.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 10/29/2013 at 05:54 AM
quote:
Yes, I did see "Satan" after playing "Fairies wear Boots" at 75 speed.


A common occurence...

 

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  posted on 10/29/2013 at 06:55 AM
I really like the ones you mentioned "Born Again, Seventh Star, Eternal Idol, Headless Cross, Dehumanizer" all VERY solid!!!

 

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  posted on 10/29/2013 at 07:00 AM
quote:
The deluxe edition of "Eternal Idol" is worth picking up as you get a bonus disc of the songs as they were originally recorded with Ray Gillen on vocals.


Yeah ..Ray was a great vocalist.

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  posted on 10/29/2013 at 09:42 AM
must be me. i like. like most of you. ozzy/dio era sabbath. glenn hughes and tony martian. okish. but i do like born again with gillian. like i into that album. last one with dio was up to the h&h/mob albums.

 

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  posted on 10/29/2013 at 03:52 PM
I really enjoy Born Again too. Career-wise I think it was a horrible mistake, but some of the tunes are terrific and really heavy. It was just too hard for the public to take it seriously, especially when they started playing SMoke On The Water in concert.

 

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  posted on 10/29/2013 at 04:24 PM
I really wanted to like Born Again. I was totally bummed that Dio had left the band, but on paper, Gillan really seemed like a good fit....bringing in a proven hard rock singe worked with RJD. And Bill Ward returning to the band seemed like a positive development too.

The production was muddy for sure. Was that the sound they were going after? And I also never understood all the screaming from Ian Gillan. He didn't do it in the Gillan band albums from that era nor the Deep Purple reunion album not long after. Did he feel it was a "Sabbath" approach?....Ozzy and Dio never really did that kind of thing. Maybe Ozzy some live.

With less muddy production and no screaming Trashed could have been a great single. Oh well.

I did enjoy the Gillan/Iommi WhoCare's collaboration a few years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BIZQeQfgw0

But I totally respect others who dug Born Again. I wish I did.



 

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  posted on 10/29/2013 at 09:59 PM
I will cast a vote for "Born Again." I think that has been my favorite post-Live Evil album until 13 came out.

It is not a perfect album and may not even be a great album to me. It IS insanely evil. It unnerved me in college in the way that the first Sabbath album creeped me out in 6th grade. It is over the top. I cannot play it when certain friends are around; they will leave the room. It is not a safe album, but it is very powerful to me. I love Trashed, Keep It Warm, Hot Line, Digital Bitch, and Zero the Hero. Primal metal.

I saw Sabbath live for the first time for 7th Star (New Haven Coliseum). We were expecting Glenn Hughes but got Ray Gillen. It was the first we had ever heard of the guy, and he was excellent. Great pipes, great presence.

I find some of the Tony Martin stuff borders on the generic, but I should go back and give them a another shot. I was disappointed in Dehumanizer, but it would have been tough to live up to Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules. The Dehumanizer album sounded more brittle, harsh, not as melodic or memorable in terms of songs. Some of this has to do with Iommi's sound. Even when DIo was in the band, which were glory years, Iommi did seem to start to head more toward trying to keep up with the shredders and the fretboard tappers and the whammy-bar-wielders, and maybe kept moving from awesome natural amp distortion to the kind of distortion that makes your tone thin.

I did see a show on the Dehumanizer tour (Boston Orpheum) which was much better than the album. I also saw a Heaven and Hell show at Mohegan Sun, which was too loud to enjoy. D'oh!

I think 13 is a great return to form.

 

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  posted on 10/30/2013 at 07:20 AM
I wonder if there was anything left over from the Heaven and Hell recordings that will ever surface.

 

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