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Author: Subject: Senior Salvation Army Official Says Gay Parents Should Be Put to Death

Ultimate Peach





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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 02:35 PM
I've always thought the Salvation Army was a great charity and I've often donated to them, but this is completely unacceptable! I thought that calling for the extermination of gays went out with Hilter. I'll never be able to look at them the same way again.

http://www.examiner.com/article/lgbt-parenting-a-death-sentence-with-salvat ion-army

Senior Salvation Army officials go on record that LGBT parents should be put to death, as the Bible instructs. Major Andrew Craibe, a Salvation Army Media Relations Director, went on public radio hosted by queer journalist Serena Ryan to discuss a recent call by LGBT parents for a boycott of the nonprofit for its anti-gay policies and beliefs.

Ryan questioned Craibe about Salvation Story: Salvationist Handbook of Doctrine , the manual used to train Salvation Army “soldiers” and members. Several chapters refer to the sin of homosexuality, including a section that cites Romans 1:18-32, which includes a admonition that homosexuals “deserved to die”:

Ryan: According to the Salvation Army, [gay parents] deserve death. How do you respond to that, as part of your doctrine?

Craibe: Well, that’s a part of our belief system.

Ryan: So they should die.

Craibe: You know, we have an alignment to the Scriptures, but that’s our belief.

Ryan: You’re proposing in your doctrine that because these parents are gay, that they must die.

Craibe: Well, well, because that is part of our Christian doctrine –

Ryan: But how is that Christian? Shouldn’t it be about love?

Craibe: Well, the love that we would show is about that: consideration for all human beings to come to know salvation…

Ryan Or die…

Craibe: Well, yes.

Major Bruce Harmer, the Army’s Communications and Public Relations Secretary recently issued the following passage from the group’s FAQ:

The Salvation Army encompasses a diverse community with a wide range of opinions on human sexuality and other subjects. The senior leadership of The Salvation Army continues to reflect on Christian and Biblical tradition, and especially on the themes of justice and mercy, to further deepen the understandings of our own members and build a more healthy relationship with the GLBT community. We pledge to continue to offer services to all and to treat each person with dignity, respect and non-discrimination.

Please, don’t give us the non-apology apology, Major Harmer (how’s that for a fitting name?) We practically invented it. If you choose to believe the Major that the Salvation Army doesn’t hold any animus toward the LGBT community, that’s your choice. Me, I'm gonna donate my old shmatas to Goodwill.

 
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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 04:52 PM
Another fine example of the disastrous results of interpreting every Biblical passage literally.

 

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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 04:59 PM
i'm glad i gave a bunch of clothes to goodwill the other day instead of those idiots
 

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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 05:31 PM

Romans 1:18-32
English Standard Version (ESV)

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.


Well, if we're going to get literal here, there really isn't anything in this that says gays should be put to death. "Deserves to die" does not mean "put to death." And of course, everyone dies anyway, so it is moot whether they deserve it or not, God gets us all in the end. This passage just shows how God is peeved at certain behavior and thinks these folks deserve what He gives out to everyone whether they deserve it or not.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 05:41 PM
I won't be donating to them again. I will probably shop there on occassion...they have really good stuff....but I'm not going to donate any money or goods again.

 

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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 05:47 PM
????What year is it????....

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 08:50 PM
Wott a coincidence that today in Philly a building fell on one of their thrift stores.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 09:20 PM
I saw that....wonder if it's coincidence or karma taking care of business.

 

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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 09:21 PM
There sure is a large % of these bible thumpers who are complete ass holes.

[Edited on 6/6/2013 by Peachypetewi]

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 09:47 PM
quote:
I saw that....wonder if it's coincidence or karma taking care of business.


Coincidence, Karma, or maybe there was a gay shopper. Who knows?

 

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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 10:52 PM
quote:
There sure is a large % of these bible thumpers who are complete ass holes.

[Edited on 6/6/2013 by Peachypetewi]
I am not a bible thumper but I am a Christian, I beleive The Lord Jesus Christ is my saviour. There seems to be a large anti-christian sentiment in the whipping post, That is why I rarely post here. To each their own beliefs. So long as I want be back. I remember when the Boston bombing news broke many of the first post in the forum were saying it was religious zealots. Your entitled to your views but so am I. So carry on I want be back,...

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/5/2013 at 10:57 PM
Iam not defending the Salvation army. I personally disagree with the statement that was made...

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 09:41 AM

Nah. Just anti hypocrite sentiment.

 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 10:14 AM
quote:
????What year is it????....


..exactly. It's mind-boggling to read quotes like this in 2013! It would be nice if we could get more people on board with the age of reason, science, and secular humanism and leave these relics of mythology to the whimsy of historians and literary enthusiasts. And no Dannyspell, that wasn't anti-Christian; that was anti-religion.

In seriousness, I respect all individuals and their journey to personal beliefs, but socially and politically I don't respect these perspectives. If I did, I'd share them, no? I suppose it is a semantic distinction with the word respect. I'm OK with that.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 11:08 AM
quote:
quote:
There sure is a large % of these bible thumpers who are complete ass holes.

[Edited on 6/6/2013 by Peachypetewi]
I am not a bible thumper but I am a Christian, I beleive The Lord Jesus Christ is my saviour. There seems to be a large anti-christian sentiment in the whipping post, That is why I rarely post here. To each their own beliefs. So long as I want be back. I remember when the Boston bombing news broke many of the first post in the forum were saying it was religious zealots. Your entitled to your views but so am I. So carry on I want be back,...


It is a typical tactic in this place to tar every religious person with the views and statements of sickos. It's unfair. You should stay. This forum needs more diversity of opinion and especially needs more persons who can do so respectfully.

 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 11:11 AM
quote:
quote:
????What year is it????....


..exactly. It's mind-boggling to read quotes like this in 2013! It would be nice if we could get more people on board with the age of reason, science, and secular humanism and leave these relics of mythology to the whimsy of historians and literary enthusiasts. And no Dannyspell, that wasn't anti-Christian; that was anti-religion.

In seriousness, I respect all individuals and their journey to personal beliefs, but socially and politically I don't respect these perspectives. If I did, I'd share them, no? I suppose it is a semantic distinction with the word respect. I'm OK with that.


It's much more than semantic. I can respect people and views that I disagree with. You apparently can't. I am not Christian and I don't believe in their doctrine but I respect Christianity and people who follow it. Do you see how that's possible? In the past society was very balkanized as people of different faiths/backgrounds/beliefs did not mingle. Now we do and we should be finding ways to disagree without losing respect.

 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 11:54 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
????What year is it????....


..exactly. It's mind-boggling to read quotes like this in 2013! It would be nice if we could get more people on board with the age of reason, science, and secular humanism and leave these relics of mythology to the whimsy of historians and literary enthusiasts. And no Dannyspell, that wasn't anti-Christian; that was anti-religion.

In seriousness, I respect all individuals and their journey to personal beliefs, but socially and politically I don't respect these perspectives. If I did, I'd share them, no? I suppose it is a semantic distinction with the word respect. I'm OK with that.


It's much more than semantic. I can respect people and views that I disagree with. You apparently can't. I am not Christian and I don't believe in their doctrine but I respect Christianity and people who follow it. Do you see how that's possible? In the past society was very balkanized as people of different faiths/backgrounds/beliefs did not mingle. Now we do and we should be finding ways to disagree without losing respect.


It is an interesting and important discussion, Doug, and maybe I should not have broached it so casually. However, as I did say, I can respect individuals without respecting the doctrine. So yes, I can respect people with which I disagree. But what does that mean? This is why I say it is a semantic issue to some extent. What I mean by that is, face to face, or in these types of forum exchanges, I will treat all respectfully, hear their point of view and engage in civil discourse. I would show all people the same human courtesies regardless of beliefs. But I think to suggest that I respect their point of view is a bit of a mis-characterization. Isn't "to respect" to hold in high regard? I will always hold your existence and humanity in high regard so I'll will treat you with/show you respect in interaction and be open to learning something from you, therefor showing my humility. But I don't think I can truthfully "respect" your religious or political views and their societal implications, if I currently disagree with them. I hope that sufficiently expresses what I too concisely tried to say before.

And if you still feel like we are talking past each other, please specifically illustrate how you "respect Christianity" despite not holding those views?? I suspect you mean, as I've said, that you will be civil and treat Christians with the respect all people deserve as human beings.

[Edited on 6/6/2013 by Vanistheman]

 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 01:39 PM
I can see how you came to hold the beliefs you xpress here, and understand why they make sense to you. I held very similiar beliefs myself for many years. In that sense, I respect not only your humanity but the views that you hold. Much easier to do when I understand those views, when I work to see the what, where, how, and why of your holding them. In this current thread, the thoughts of Paul on this subject are taken way out of context. Romans is an amazingly complex and interesting book, where Paul lays out logically (to his mind) the reason for our need for redemption and the process involved. In the context of the entire book, and Paul's spiritual view as a whole, all of us "deserve to die". That is one of his main themes espoused throughout all his works, and he credits himself as chief sinner, which literally means to "miss the target" of God's desire for us.

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
Romans 3:23

And again

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians 2:1-11

Now, what constitutes "good works" has, IMHO, become incredibly screwed up in the current state of "political religion", or "religious politics" for lack of a better term. The good works that God prepared in advance for us to do are works of love, motivated by love. You can easily tell what those are and what they aren't. From my experience the vast majority of Christians I know go about doing that kind of work quietly and without fanfare, in the realm of personal relationships with other people within the spheres of their daily lives. It's hurtful to be painted as a waco (or wacko), a religious zealot, Bible thumper, ignorant, short sighted, lacking the ability to think for one's self, etc., because I have experienced the transforming power of Jesus Christ in my life and lifted out of the depths of misery where I used to live into a new and wonder filled life I never dreamed existed. I can't deny that happened to me. I can, however, love you wherever you are, because that is how God loves me, and that is what God has commanded I do. Nothing else will matter or last.


 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 02:53 PM
quote:
a new and wonder filled life I never dreamed existed


cool ! Care to elaborate ? That's like describing a concert by saying "It was amazing". It doesn't really tell us much. Not asking for the whole enchilada here, I'm sure there's too much to tell, but I'd settle for an explanation of two or three wonders. But they have to be wonders that can never happen to anyone else unless they worship Jesus Christ. Not just everyday wonders that any old heathen can have, like I asked God to help me quit drinking, and I did, because that happens to lots of people not just Christians. And these wonders can't be stuff that hasn't happened yet, like eternal life, it has to be something that has happened, or is happening.

 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 02:59 PM
I think an important discussion has started in this thread about respect and religion. I for one believe that everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want. I have friends and/or family who are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Bahai, Hindi and Buddhist. Someone's religion means nothing to me as long as long as they are friendly and show respect for those who have different beliefs. However, not a single one of my friends would ever say that a gay person should be put to death. IF they would say that, they would no longer be my friend. All of my friends respect people with different beliefs (some of my family might not, but you can't choose your family). Religion should not be used as an excuse to treat anyone in a different manner as anyone else. Sometimes if I come across as anti-Christian or anti-religion on this board it is not so much that I am against anyone's beliefs, it is more that I am against someone forcing religious based beliefs on an entire population who may not hold the same beliefs. For example, religious based discrimination against homosexuals is wrong in my eyes. Discrimination against Muslims in the USA is wrong too, just as discrimination against Christians is wrong in Islamic countries. We all share a relatively small planet and people need to see that people with other beliefs need and deserve respect as well, and once you try to limits someone else's beliefs or rights by assuming your personal beliefs are more important then you are part of the problem.
 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 03:12 PM
quote:
quote:
a new and wonder filled life I never dreamed existed


cool ! Care to elaborate ? That's like describing a concert by saying "It was amazing". It doesn't really tell us much. Not asking for the whole enchilada here, I'm sure there's too much to tell, but I'd settle for an explanation of two or three wonders. But they have to be wonders that can never happen to anyone else unless they worship Jesus Christ. Not just everyday wonders that any old heathen can have, like I asked God to help me quit drinking, and I did, because that happens to lots of people not just Christians. And these wonders can't be stuff that hasn't happened yet, like eternal life, it has to be something that has happened, or is happening.


I've posted bits of my story many times here over the years. Your parameters for my story are interesting, but suffice to say I couldn't have experienced any of the things my life now entails without Jesus, regardless of what anyone else might do. Going from a life of substance abuse, self centered excess, alienated from my self, my family, my community, and about to throw away my second marriage to being a father, husband, and friend worhty of people's trust and respect, having my education, skills, and life experiences used to help others headed down similiar paths to examine what they are doing and possibly avoid the tragedies awaiting them, expeiriencing the joy of raising children and being part of a family in a wide sense of the word are a few of the wonders I now enjoy. I never knew peace before, never knew what it felt like to wake up looking forward to what the day had in store, never knew what it was like to open myself up to the good things of life. I didn't decide to worship Jesus so I could have this stuff; he confronted me with who I had becomne and showed me how it would end up, and how far away that would be from what he had created me for, and I decided I wanted to live. That ws almost 20 year ago. I did not have the power to change myself, I had to submit to being changed from the inside out. Well worth it to me.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 03:25 PM
quote:
Religion should not be used as an excuse to treat anyone in a different manner as anyone else. Sometimes if I come across as anti-Christian or anti-religion on this board it is not so much that I am against anyone's beliefs, it is more that I am against someone forcing religious based beliefs on an entire population who may not hold the same beliefs.


Absolutely agree. No one who does not share my values should be obligated to live by them. The law represents our common, shared values, as determined by the majority, but spiritual-religious values are personal and should remain seperate from the "state".

 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 03:40 PM
quote:
quote:
Religion should not be used as an excuse to treat anyone in a different manner as anyone else. Sometimes if I come across as anti-Christian or anti-religion on this board it is not so much that I am against anyone's beliefs, it is more that I am against someone forcing religious based beliefs on an entire population who may not hold the same beliefs.


Absolutely agree. No one who does not share my values should be obligated to live by them. The law represents our common, shared values, as determined by the majority, but spiritual-religious values are personal and should remain seperate from the "state".


I think that is at the crux of the abortion and the gay marriage issue. Many do not see these as a just public policy issues. They are so intertwined and infused with religious views that it is almost impossible to have a discussion about them that doesn't involve religious views, especially across a broad group of people as is represented here. Many people see these issues as religous groups trying to impose their beliefs on the whole of American society, while others would prefer to treat them as a completely nonsectarian issues. I think things are changing more quickly on the gay marriage issue than abortion, but I don't see either ever being resolved to the point that they aren't creating contentious debate, at least not in my lifetime.

[Edited on 6/6/2013 by gondicar]

 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 03:59 PM

Good answer Doug. Glad it worked for you, and those are indeed wonders. Pardon my acting like King Herod in JC Superstar, "Prove to me that you're no fool, walk across my swimming pool..." I was circling over that ugly possibility of "it can ONLY happen this way" which in my eyes is the source of all the conflict. And people of the Judaic religions are often quite arrogant that way.

And Dannyspell, come on man, where's your armor ? The day you start taking the WP seriously is a sad day indeed ! Serious issues, but there are some firecrackers in here, good forum, nobody's rippin on you, haven't you noticed? Seems like the only religious folks who get the rotten tomatos are ones with some other agenda, kind of like a wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

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  posted on 6/6/2013 at 04:03 PM
quote:

Good answer Doug. Glad it worked for you, and those are indeed wonders. Pardon my acting like King Herod in JC Superstar, "Prove to me that you're no fool, walk across my swimming pool..." I was circling over that ugly possibility of "it can ONLY happen this way" which in my eyes is the source of all the conflict.

No worries. This is a great forum for exchanging ideas and experiences if we can just remeber that is what it is.

[Edited on 6/6/2013 by DougMacKenzie]

 
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