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Author: Subject: Black Sabbath Reunion Shows without Bill Ward

Universal Peach





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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 12:03 PM
http://www.billward.com/2012/05/statement-on-upcoming-black-sabbath-shows/


Statement on Upcoming Black Sabbath Shows

Posted on May.15, 2012 under Black Sabbath

"Dear Sabbath Fans and Fellow Musicians,

I sincerely regret to inform you that after a final effort to participate in the upcoming Sabbath shows a failure to agree has continued. At this time I have to inform you that I won’t be playing with Black Sabbath at the Birmingham gig dated May 19th, 2012, nor will I be playing at Download on June 10th, 2012. Further, I will not be playing at Lollapalooza on August 3, 2012.

It is with a very sad heart that I bring you this news. I am sincerely passionate in my desire to play with the band, and I’m very, very sorry that it’s fallen to this. This statement is even more painstaking to write, as I was particularly excited to play alongside Tony Iommi after the recent treatments he underwent. I wanted that to become a reality.

To express my thoughts about you, the Sabbath fans, I’m going to speak to you all through an experience my brother James had recently. My brother Jimmy lives in the U.K. When speaking with him a couple of days ago, he told me that an acquaintance had stopped him on the street and confronted him, “is your brother playing Birmingham? What’s going on? I waited in line with my son and paid x amount for the concert tickets.”

The man’s son is a young drummer. He’s going to see Sabbath, and he wants to see Bill Ward play drums. Upon hearing this news, I felt horrible. I couldn’t help feeling some resentment towards the failure to reach an agreement, the failure to remember where we came from, the failure to be as brothers, as we once were. To be clear, I’m not blaming the other guys or finding any faults with them. I would think it can’t be easy for them either, but this situation is just really sad. It’s sad that it’s come to this. “This” will surely leave a mark and be unwelcome to the memory. Hopefully “this” will heal and pass in time.

My heart sank when Jimmy told me about this young boy. I know this boy is going to be disappointed, and I don’t know how to amend it, other than to put my arms around the boy and tell him I love him. Sabbath fans have a voice and a face, to me you’re human, you have families and despair. You have ferocity and emotions and graciousness, and at this moment as far as I’m concerned you are also that young boy in England. I don’t know how to amend my part in these failings other than to put my arms around you and say I love you and let you know I’m very, very sorry.

Throughout this process, which began over a year ago, I have had to stand up for myself time and time again. I have had to stand up for myself and in doing so realize my actions indirectly, although unintentionally, are upsetting and hurting a lot of you. I know in my heart I couldn’t have done these concerts by agreeing the terms suggested. I made a solemn vow after the last European and Ozzfest concerts that I would never again enter into what was, in my opinion, a totally unsatisfactory contract. I have to stand for something, and as painful as it is, I’m doing it.

Earlier in April 2012, I’d been asked to participate “minimally” in the Download festival. I believe I’d been offered no more than three songs to play while another drummer presumably played the rest of the show with Black Sabbath. I was not willing to participate in that offer. I was not prepared to watch another drummer play a Sabbath set, while I was to play only three songs.

I found out about the Birmingham gig on Monday, April 30 through the Internet ad. I was taken aback somewhat by the date, and the fact it was Birmingham. Knowing the “signable” contract negotiations were at best in shreds, I was upset by the idea that the band was going to play Birmingham and play it assumedly without me. I had no prior knowledge of the date and location, and I felt totally excluded. We contacted the representative for Black Sabbath to see if something could be worked out. In the meantime my drum crew and I, along with our US endorsers, finished all the necessary planning for a swift departure to the UK. There wasn’t a whole lot to complete; we’d all been on standby more or less since mid-January 2012. The remaining work in the UK was confirmed done by our European and UK endorsers and we were good to go by Friday, May 4 2012. There were two stress points: firstly, getting an agreement in place, and secondly, getting to England in a timely manner. Jetlag time was taken into account as well as drum practice, a drum practice room in the heart of Birmingham, accommodation, and travel arrangements were all in place to meet with any band rehearsals that may have transpired before the Birmingham show. So far everything that had been arranged was on my dime, but we didn’t move ahead without a realistic confirmation.

Communications between the representative and my lawyer continued through the weekend of May 5 finalizing on Wednesday, May 9. The offer we received on May 9 was, “come to the UK, play for free and see how the first show goes.” I was tempted. Playing for free would not have been a problem for me, but “seeing how the first show goes” left an element of risk which could have affected Download. My ideal thought was to play in full the Birmingham show, in full Download, and in full Lollapalooza.

I had notified the representative that May 10 was my cutoff day in order to have good lead-in time for England. On the night of May 9 I asked for a brief letter to be sent to the representative asking to find out if we were at an end. On the morning of Thursday, May 10, I received a reply in the affirmative. After consulting with my advisors and crew a decision was made to let go and stop.

I can’t prioritize the Sabbath fans making one show more important than the other. I can’t do that. All of you are important. It’s all the gigs or none at all. I can’t come to Birmingham and “see what happens” knowing there is a risk of not being able to play Download or Lollapalooza. Again, for me, it’s all or nothing. I had to say “no” to Birmingham on the principle of wanting to play all the shows. Saying no to Birmingham is very difficult for me. My family grew up in Birmingham. Black Sabbath grew up in Birmingham. It’s still my hometown and I resent having to arrive at such a difficult choice.

Although the statement was made that, “the door is always open” for me, as explained above, walking through that door is not always as easy as it sounds. There are many complicated issues and unseen and unspoken agendas on hand. I can assure you, my criteria for a “signable” contract is based in mindful principles, respectability, and acknowledgement of my history within the band.

I hold no malice or resentment towards the other band members. I love them; I’m tolerant of them; I’m frustrated with them, as they may be with me. My fight has never been with them. I’ll love them forever. In my opinion, nobody wins this time; the band doesn’t win; the fans for an original lineup don’t win. Nobody wins, nobody. Even the ones who thought they did.

I didn’t want to make this decision, but I have to be honest and transparent. This is the statement I didn’t want to write; it’s the last thing I wanted to do. But, I have written it, and now it can go into the universe.

Since Spring of 2011, I’ve waited patiently and hopefully for a signable contract, you know the rest. I stand for the boy in the U.K., for the coming drum student, for all the drummers, who write their parts out and get stiffed on the publishing, I stand with the Sabbath fans chanting “Bill Ward” and asking “why?” and I stand with Tony and Geezer and Ozzy.

On a final note, even though I’m at an end with the upcoming announced concerts, I will remain with an open mind and a position of willingness to negotiate “signable” terms with Sabbath’s representatives in the future.

Stay strong.
Stay safe.

With all my heart and strength, I love you,
Bill Ward"

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 12:06 PM
Disappointed. We have Lollapalooza tickets and I was looking forward to a full reunion.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 12:31 PM
Sharon Osbourne. Enuff Said.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 12:48 PM
quote:
Sharon Osbourne. Enuff Said.


+1

I hate it for Bill and the fans. But I admire the way Bill is handling it...... Hopefully they can work something out b-4 it's too late......But as they say, "that's rock-n-roll."

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 01:00 PM
quote:
Sharon Osbourne. Enuff Said.


Sharon Osbourne is not the manager of Black Sabbath. Truth is, what Bill wants, to play shows with Sabbath is so far out there that he's not even in any sort of negotiating range. Some might say it should be a 4 way split but what has Bill done over the years to keep Black Sabbath music in the mind of the music lover? Nothing!
Ozzy and Iommi now own the majority of Black Sabbath. Geezer and Bill have very good offers to play with the band. Geezer has accepted, Bill has not.
This is not the first time Bill has been the spanner in the works by the way, with Sabbath , Sabbath with Dio and Heaven And Hell. You going to blame Sharon O. for all of that then?

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 01:01 PM
As long as Mr$ O$bourne is involved we will never see Bill on the drum stool for Sabbath.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 02:14 PM
quote:
quote:
Sharon Osbourne. Enuff Said.


Sharon Osbourne is not the manager of Black Sabbath. Truth is, what Bill wants, to play shows with Sabbath is so far out there that he's not even in any sort of negotiating range. Some might say it should be a 4 way split but what has Bill done over the years to keep Black Sabbath music in the mind of the music lover? Nothing!
Ozzy and Iommi now own the majority of Black Sabbath. Geezer and Bill have very good offers to play with the band. Geezer has accepted, Bill has not.
This is not the first time Bill has been the spanner in the works by the way, with Sabbath , Sabbath with Dio and Heaven And Hell. You going to blame Sharon O. for all of that then?


Really?
So what is Sabbath's offer to Bill?
Who is the representative that speaks for the group, since none of the individual managers seems to cop to that role?

If you read Bill's note, it plainly says at the end, that he's getting cut out, at least, of the publishing rights to the new music. So essentially the band is either using a drum machine, or a hired hand who signed away their rights to any part, in creating new music.

He was never told about Saturday night's gig, was then told he could come over and play for free and "we'll see how it goes". He was offered a 3 song set during Download, for whatever fee, then have to sit there and watch another guy play drums the rest of the set.

Whether Bill is full of drama or sh*t, he's the only guy putting his version of the nasty business end of this out there. Where is everybody elses version? Why would they trot Bill out there to announce the reunion and a new album and tour, then decided to minimize his involvement in everything?

I think Bill's looking for answers, and so is the rest of Sabbath's fan base.
Who should they talk to, to get those answers?

I'm not a critic of Sharon Osbourne, in fact I admire the woman for her hard nose business savvy, that she obviously got from her equally hard nosed Dad, and while I agree she gets way too much stick from fans, the fact is, she herself has gone overboard a bit on occasion managing Ozzy and his affairs.

But I think another fact of the matter here is, if Ozzy, Tony, and Geezer wanted Bill there, he'd be there, but they themselves are strangely silent on this "business" matter.

And another thing that shouldn't be forgotten here, if it wasn't for Bill Ward, there'd be no Black Sabbath.
He was the one that talked Tony into letting Ozzy try out for the band, when Tony wanted to walk away from Ozzy's doorstep when Bill and Tony were answering Ozzy's ad as a singer looking for a gig.

And of course, the deed was left to Bill to sack Ozzy when Tony and Geezer decided that Sabbath could no longer continue on with a disinterested Ozzy back in the late 70's.

I love Iommi as much as the next guitar playing Sabbath fan, maybe more so, but Tony remains amazingly blame free, and unaccountable, in anything bad that happens within the Sabbath ranks through out the years, and this appears to be another case of that.

[Edited on 5/16/2012 by Efus]

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 02:57 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Sharon Osbourne. Enuff Said.


Sharon Osbourne is not the manager of Black Sabbath. Truth is, what Bill wants, to play shows with Sabbath is so far out there that he's not even in any sort of negotiating range. Some might say it should be a 4 way split but what has Bill done over the years to keep Black Sabbath music in the mind of the music lover? Nothing!
Ozzy and Iommi now own the majority of Black Sabbath. Geezer and Bill have very good offers to play with the band. Geezer has accepted, Bill has not.
This is not the first time Bill has been the spanner in the works by the way, with Sabbath , Sabbath with Dio and Heaven And Hell. You going to blame Sharon O. for all of that then?


Really?
So what is Sabbath's offer to Bill?
Who is the representative that speaks for the group, since none of the individual managers seems to cop to that role?

If you read Bill's note, it plainly says at the end, that he's getting cut out, at least, of the publishing rights to the new music. So essentially the band is either using a drum machine, or a hired hand who signed away their rights to any part, in creating new music.

He was never told about Saturday night's gig, was then told he could come over and play for free and "we'll see how it goes". He was offered a 3 song set during Download, for whatever fee, then have to sit there and watch another guy play drums the rest of the set.

Whether Bill is full of drama or sh*t, he's the only guy putting his version of the nasty business end of this out there. Where is everybody elses version? Why would they trot Bill out there to announce the reunion and a new album and tour, then decided to minimize his involvement in everything?

I think Bill's looking for answers, and so is the rest of Sabbath's fan base.
Who should they talk to, to get those answers?

I'm not a critic of Sharon Osbourne, in fact I admire the woman for her hard nose business savvy, that she obviously got from her equally hard nosed Dad, and while I agree she gets way too much stick from fans, the fact is, she herself has gone overboard a bit on occasion managing Ozzy and his affairs.

But I think another fact of the matter here is, if Ozzy, Tony, and Geezer wanted Bill there, he'd be there, but they themselves are strangely silent on this "business" matter.

And another thing that shouldn't be forgotten here, if it wasn't for Bill Ward, there'd be no Black Sabbath.
He was the one that talked Tony into letting Ozzy try out for the band, when Tony wanted to walk away from Ozzy's doorstep when Bill and Tony were answering Ozzy's ad as a singer looking for a gig.

And of course, the deed was left to Bill to sack Ozzy when Tony and Geezer decided that Sabbath could no longer continue on with a disinterested Ozzy back in the late 70's.

I love Iommi as much as the next guitar playing Sabbath fan, maybe more so, but Tony remains amazingly blame free, and unaccountable, in anything bad that happens within the Sabbath ranks through out the years, and this appears to be another case of that.

[Edited on 5/16/2012 by Efus]


I don't know what the offer to Bill is. I do know that Tony, Ozzy and Geezer are in full agreement that his demands are unreasonable.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 03:19 PM
I got the impression the other members aren't sure he can physically pull it off. Otherwise why have him come out and play a show to see how it goes? They had Vinny Appice on tour last time shadowing Bill in case he couldn't do it. He's a few years older now and I bet they're worried he can't play at the appropriate level. Maybe the contract conditions require him to have a training regimen or something he doesn't want to do. I can't imagine this is all over money since he's been involved with previous reunions. He has been the spanner in the works several times over the years even leaving the band without a drummer on a couple of tours. Maybe there's a clause about tour abandonment he doesn't want to sign. "Terms" don't always mean money.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 03:24 PM
quote:
I got the impression the other members aren't sure he can physically pull it off. Otherwise why have him come out and play a show to see how it goes? They had Vinny Appice on tour last time shadowing Bill in case he couldn't do it. He's a few years older now and I bet they're worried he can't play at the appropriate level. Maybe the contract conditions require him to have a training regimen or something he doesn't want to do. I can't imagine this is all over money since he's been involved with previous reunions. He has been the spanner in the works several times over the years even leaving the band without a drummer on a couple of tours. Maybe there's a clause about tour abandonment he doesn't want to sign. "Terms" don't always mean money.


exactly jfk, thats the way it has looked since the beginning.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 03:27 PM
I have wrote a few times that this is not really about money and more to do with talent level and ability to do it.

Sharon is not to blame even if it is fun for some to write. If left to Sharon, Ozzy would not be doing anything with Sabbath.

Even when you read Bill's statement, he is vague on many points.

Why not use him on the album? Bill mentions nothing about it and only mentions shows. Skill level at this point.

Why a three song bit? No one believes he can make it through a show.

Sabbath used to give band credit to songs and no longer will do that. Bill has made millions from those early riffs.

The band is majority owned by Tony and Ozzy and as Geordielad mentioned. the offers are more than fair. Bill is pissed that they have insisted on having a back up as they have in the past. They do that for a reason. Bill knows it more then anyone. How to cover? Ask for an outrageous amount that will put negotiations at a stand still.

A statement from Sabbath stating that Bill is asking for an outrageous amount of money and has questionable skills at this point and we don't fully believe that he can pull this off might not come across that well to anyone.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 03:57 PM
quote:
I got the impression the other members aren't sure he can physically pull it off. Otherwise why have him come out and play a show to see how it goes? I can't imagine this is all over money since he's been involved with previous reunions. He has been the spanner in the works several times over the years even leaving the band without a drummer on a couple of tours. Maybe there's a clause about tour abandonment he doesn't want to sign. "Terms" don't always mean money.


That sounds fine, however.
Why would you announce the man as being part of a new album and tour, then cut the man out of the process of creating the new music?

Bill has always gotten credit for his parts, other than 2 songs on "Born Again" and now he's announced as part of the reunion, yet not good enough to help write the music, nor to actually tour with the band?

Why wouldn't they play together for a bit, see if Bill's got the chops still, then go from there, instead of announcing everything, then give the guy the cold shoulder, if this was not over money?

And again, if someone else in the Sabbath ranks would step up and lay out the band's position, it would go along way toward clearing everything up. After all, nobody had a problem letting the world know why Ozzy got sacked the first time around, the lack of interest in helping the band develop new material.

And ever since Ozzy went solo, he's leaned HEAVILY on the musicians in the band to write those albums, and ironically enough, it was his manager than tried to cut the drummer and bassplayer out of any royalties on the re-issues of his first two solo efforts.

Even more interesting, is the fact that The Devil You Know was worked up by Iommi, Butler and Dio with a drum machine, and when it came time to record, Appice simply laid down the tracks as written with the drum machine, and got no publishing credit.

It sounds exactly like what is happening here.

If Bill can't play anymore, then let his "brothers" come out and say it, and I think for all Bill's done for Sabbath, he's due at least 1 honest gig, if not the 3 full dates, to prove that he can play.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 04:17 PM
IMHO, the band is trying to cover Bill's health issues...I may be wrong. But this whole episode sounds wrong to me...agaim IMHO. Not enough info for the other 3 members, and Bill is vague, to the point I dunno what the heck is goin on. But it dont sound straight up to me. Again, just IMHO. Really wanted all 4 original members together personally...

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 04:30 PM
quote:
If Bill can't play anymore, then let his "brothers" come out and say it, and I think for all Bill's done for Sabbath, he's due at least 1 honest gig, if not the 3 full dates, to prove that he can play.



All Bill has done? What exactly has Bill done? He got credit on all the early albums which is where the money is anyway. Ironman is not exactly a complex piece besides the riff and lyrics, not much to do there. Bill should be thrilled to be getting paid still on all those classics.

In the mid 70s, Bill struggled to complete shows. I was at a couple of them.

In the 80s, he couldn't make it through the Dio era.

In the 90s, he again failed with the reunions and was replaced.

In the 2000s, he struggled physically to make it.

In the 2010s, is it a stretch to question his ability.

Ozzy's talent and ability to sing the material sailed long ago but he is Ozzy. they can survive his bum notes and tailor setlists to at least give him a fighting chance.

A drummer is something that has to be at the top of his game or any band would fail. It has been proven before that the fans accept the band without Bill.

Would be nice to pull it off but obviously both sides have their doubts. But as for Sabbath owing Bill not a chance.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 04:35 PM
Funny that on an ABB site, people question songwriting credit. Gregg writes Whipping Post and gets sole credit when the song has about 1 minute worth of lyrics and the rest is solos and not to mention a killer bass line to start it all off.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 04:37 PM
quote:
quote:
If Bill can't play anymore, then let his "brothers" come out and say it, and I think for all Bill's done for Sabbath, he's due at least 1 honest gig, if not the 3 full dates, to prove that he can play.



All Bill has done? What exactly has Bill done? He got credit on all the early albums which is where the money is anyway. Ironman is not exactly a complex piece besides the riff and lyrics, not much to do there. Bill should be thrilled to be getting paid still on all those classics.

In the mid 70s, Bill struggled to complete shows. I was at a couple of them.

In the 80s, he couldn't make it through the Dio era.

In the 90s, he again failed with the reunions and was replaced.

In the 2000s, he struggled physically to make it.

In the 2010s, is it a stretch to question his ability.

Ozzy's talent and ability to sing the material sailed long ago but he is Ozzy. they can survive his bum notes and tailor setlists to at least give him a fighting chance.

A drummer is something that has to be at the top of his game or any band would fail. It has been proven before that the fans accept the band without Bill.

Would be nice to pull it off but obviously both sides have their doubts. But as for Sabbath owing Bill not a chance.


again exactly mule this time, all of this was said months ago when bill 1st started to make waves

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 04:44 PM
quote:
Funny that on an ABB site, people question songwriting credit. Gregg writes Whipping Post and gets sole credit when the song has about 1 minute worth of lyrics and the rest is solos and not to mention a killer bass line to start it all off.


Well, that is interesting, and spot on, it would be a great question to ask Gregg.
Obviously nobody thought of the financial ramifications of these things back then.

Its a funny evolution of, or maybe just rock music, growing up.

Remember the big stink in Beatlesland a few years back when Sir Paul decided to update the band's writing credits as McCartney/Lennon, instead of the way it had always been?

I think one of the guys in CSNY described it pretty well.
First tour we did for the music.
Second tour we did for the chicks and drugs.
Third tour we did for the money.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 04:55 PM
It is a shame that Bill is being excluded on the tour and album. Absolutely love his drumming and he seems like a genuinely good person. I have a feeling he keeps stalling on things and co-workers ger impatient. He has been working on a solo album for 10 years now.
 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 05:02 PM
quote:
quote:
If Bill can't play anymore, then let his "brothers" come out and say it, and I think for all Bill's done for Sabbath, he's due at least 1 honest gig, if not the 3 full dates, to prove that he can play.



All Bill has done? What exactly has Bill done? He got credit on all the early albums which is where the money is anyway. Ironman is not exactly a complex piece besides the riff and lyrics, not much to do there. Bill should be thrilled to be getting paid still on all those classics.

In the mid 70s, Bill struggled to complete shows. I was at a couple of them.

In the 80s, he couldn't make it through the Dio era.

In the 90s, he again failed with the reunions and was replaced.

In the 2000s, he struggled physically to make it.

In the 2010s, is it a stretch to question his ability.

Ozzy's talent and ability to sing the material sailed long ago but he is Ozzy. they can survive his bum notes and tailor setlists to at least give him a fighting chance.

A drummer is something that has to be at the top of his game or any band would fail. It has been proven before that the fans accept the band without Bill.

Would be nice to pull it off but obviously both sides have their doubts. But as for Sabbath owing Bill not a chance.


Well again, theres no Sabbath if Ward lets Iommi have his way, and they walk away from Ozzy's door.
Thats just history.

And again, you may need to go back an listen to those original 6 albums because there is PLENTY of great drum work on them. I'm not in the habit of defending drummers, but without Ward's chops, his love of big band swing music, I don't think Sabbath has a groove, and those guys had plenty of jams, other than Iron Man, that kicked azz.

What your saying is The Who would have been great anyway without Moon, Zeppelin same without Bonham, in fact you could pretty much replace the drummer in a band with a machine, and it'd all be the same anyway.

As for your timeline of Ward's health.
Fact of the matter is, the man suffered a heart attack during rehearsals for '98 Ozzfest, and was subsequently replaced by Mike Bordin. After that, Ward didn't miss a performance in '99 and beyond.
Your opinion on how he played is what it is, your opinion. I saw them in '99, he was fantastic, and I've posted the clips here for comment, to deafening silence of accusers.

Another fact of the matter here, is that if the Sabs knew that Bill couldn't cut it, why go through the farce of a reunion and new album announcement in November of 2011?
He did the press conference without a signed deal, and was told it would all be worked out, and then they simply lowballed the guy. But again, if they didn't think he could cut it in the studio or on tour, why have the guy even at the press conference? It'd have been a lot more honest just to re-unite the 3 of the them, and when asked why Ward wasn't involved, just cite the standard "musical differences", if pressed, 'We don't think Bill can physically handle what we have scheduled"

Instead they built up everybody's hopes, and then the drummer balked when he saw what the terms of his involvement would be, and Sabbath has a clusterfu*k on its hands.

But I tell you what will be interesting, to feel what the vibe is in the hall in Birmingham on Saturday night, and frankly, I'm kind of surprised that 3 days before the gig, we STILL don't know who's going to be in the drummer's chair for the show. I'm guessing it'll probably be this Tommy Cienfuetos from Ozzy's solo band. But we'll find out soon enough, I guess.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 05:29 PM
"Why wouldn't they play together for a bit, see if Bill's got the chops still, then go from there,"

That sounds EXACTLY like what they offered Bill, and he turned them down.

It's possible that they aren't treating Ward fairly, we don't know the details, but his statement sounds to me like his pride is one of the main obstacles here.

I'm disappointed that Bill won't be on the tour, but if I had to pick which member of Sabbath was the most expendable, it would be Bill Ward.

 
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Peach Master



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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 06:19 PM
quote:
"Why wouldn't they play together for a bit, see if Bill's got the chops still, then go from there,"

That sounds EXACTLY like what they offered Bill, and he turned them down.




Yeah, but that came just in the last week.
I still don't get the timing of the reunion announcement, and then after that the band decision that Bill Ward can't cut it?

While I'd agree that Bill looks like he's cutting his nose off to spite his face on this offer.
I can also see why he'd pass. There's no guarantee for even 2 other shows (he was only offered a 3 song play at Download) and if Bill slays them Saturday night, the fans get their hopes up, and the pressure falls on Ward to once again capitulate on the business end of it, and most of all to get frozen out of any writing credits on any new music.

Hell, even Ozzy got a credit on Rat Salad and that was an instrumental (and another excellent Bill Ward drum performance might I add). But it was the way it was done back then, and its obviously a whole different ballgame this time around.





[Edited on 5/16/2012 by Efus]

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 07:30 PM
I never said that the albums didn't have some great drumming and unlike the drummers that you mention, he got credit and royalties. He should thank his lucky stars for it because coming up with a drum part is hardly writing a song.

Do I think Sabbath could have existed without Bill? Yes and H&H is one of their better albums IMO. Could the Who exist without Moon? Yes but was never the same again. Could Zeppelin exist without Bonham? They didn't think so and I agree.

I would say that both Bonham and Moon were superior to Bill and except for a few examples, they got no songwriting credit. So that comparison doesn't really help Bill's case. They were more instrumental in their band's sound and image.

Geordielad and I both have contacts within their camp and seem to be on the same page. In the end, the band all know Bill better than us so if they have doubt then perhaps there is merit. As I mentioned months ago, this is not only about cash.

As for Sharon, the reality stuff has thrown people off. Without her there would be no Ozzy from all levels both health and career. She has kept a guy who obviously has/had issues popular and in the spotlight. Anyone who has met Ozzy would know that is no easy feat. By keeping Ozzy alive and popular, she has helped make a reunion possible.

As for Saturday, the crowd will love it and cheer.

As Rob mentioned, Bill is easily the most replaceable member. Shame for some, reality for all.

 

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  posted on 5/16/2012 at 08:58 PM
quote:
In the end, the band all know Bill better than us so if they have doubt then perhaps there is merit. As I mentioned months ago, this is not only about cash.

As Rob mentioned, Bill is easily the most replaceable member. Shame for some, reality for all.




All these posts on this thread are very interesting and thought provoking.

I think C Mule sums it up the best with the quote above. But thats kinda the way it is unfortunatley. We may not like it and have strong feeling one way or another, but what do you do??? None of us are in they're shoes and we only can speculate with hypotheticals and hearsay. We dont know all the facts and issues.

I don't know Bill personaly but he seems like a good guy. I would like to see him involved,I feel bad, but it's a business decision and they are making it for the whole and not the part. It sucks, but unfortunatley it's part of life. I have been involved in circumstances similar and it's not pleasant.

The legends of rock and roll are getting old..things are ending,moving and passing on unfortunaley.It's sad to see our heroes go

Just remember these guys and play the heck out of they're first 6 albums.Classics!!!!!
Not much better than that!!!

 

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  posted on 5/18/2012 at 10:13 PM
An interesting twist to all this drama is that on Black Sabbath's official website, Bill Ward is being edited out of Sabbath's history. Pictures of the band going back to the '70s suddenly don't have Bill Ward in them. To paraphrase Orwell, he who controls the present controls the past.

[Edited on 5/19/2012 by ElViejo]

 

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  posted on 5/19/2012 at 05:47 AM
quote:
Funny that on an ABB site, people question songwriting credit. Gregg writes Whipping Post and gets sole credit when the song has about 1 minute worth of lyrics and the rest is solos and not to mention a killer bass line to start it all off.


so you doubt gregg could have written the opening bass part on piano or organ and then showed it to berry? also solos hardly get a writing credit. did EVH get a writing credit for "beat it"?

 
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