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Author: Subject: Now That's How You Topple a Dictator!

True Peach





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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 03:41 PM
Limited US involvement, a broad coalition, NO loss of US lives, and in support of a true popular uprising. Most importantly, we do not own the aftermath, the Libyan people do.

I'm sure there will be difficulties ahead in Libya, and nobody knows exactly what will replace Ghadafi, but for now this seems a vindication of what was undertaken. Thankfully, we will never know what the cost in Libyan lives would have been if the President had sat on his hands.

I know, this thing cost money. How much money has been spent on the war on terror though? Consider this photo, and ask yourself the last time you saw a US flag in the Arab world not on fire or attached to our military:


 
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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 04:03 PM
quote:
Limited US involvement, a broad coalition, NO loss of US lives, and in support of a true popular uprising. Most importantly, we do not own the aftermath, the Libyan people do.

I'm sure there will be difficulties ahead in Libya, and nobody knows exactly what will replace Ghadafi, but for now this seems a vindication of what was undertaken. Thankfully, we will never know what the cost in Libyan lives would have been if the President had sat on his hands.

I know, this thing cost money. How much money has been spent on the war on terror though? Consider this photo, and ask yourself the last time you saw a US flag in the Arab world not on fire or attached to our military:



We don't own the aftermath? So we can send our bombers to anywhere and bomb the living hell out of an area, but have zero responsibility after it?

And so on to Syria with your logic? And when should we start bombing the Congo? They have been raping and killing innocent women, men and children for decades there. What is the cost of lives in these places, less than Libyan lives?

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 04:14 PM
Brock who gives any nation including ours the RIGHT to go and bomb people anywhere?
Qaddafi has loyal supporters and was doing what he felt was right for his people, divesting himself of our influence in their country. He was investing in African banking, and many other things.

These are the people of Libya Brock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTa4yAqqSI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RMNysdk9u0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5gNS75RpOc&feature=related
A girl’s message to Sarkozy (‘to go to hell’) and Obama to keep bombing but they will fight till the last drop of their blood is spilled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3RKMBpnq48&feature=related
The kids, the question is asked Let them Live and Play in Libya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqCp8UaF60U&feature=related
in Tripoli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-wZEhyg2ew&feature=related
These people rock with resistance.

But you think NATO is a great liberating force, going and bombing other countries.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 04:30 PM
They should drop his pathetic dictator a$$ from 30,000 feet over Lockerbie, Scotland without a parachute.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 07:46 PM
quote:
quote:
Limited US involvement, a broad coalition, NO loss of US lives, and in support of a true popular uprising. Most importantly, we do not own the aftermath, the Libyan people do.

I'm sure there will be difficulties ahead in Libya, and nobody knows exactly what will replace Ghadafi, but for now this seems a vindication of what was undertaken. Thankfully, we will never know what the cost in Libyan lives would have been if the President had sat on his hands.

I know, this thing cost money. How much money has been spent on the war on terror though? Consider this photo, and ask yourself the last time you saw a US flag in the Arab world not on fire or attached to our military:



We don't own the aftermath? So we can send our bombers to anywhere and bomb the living hell out of an area, but have zero responsibility after it?

And so on to Syria with your logic? And when should we start bombing the Congo? They have been raping and killing innocent women, men and children for decades there. What is the cost of lives in these places, less than Libyan lives?


I thought you were a fan of the US military, yet now you accuse them of indiscriminate bombing? But yeah, we have zero responsibility here. We were asked by the rebels to do this one task, and we did. The end.

While precedent matters in the law, it does not in rendering charity, which this was in a way. We were able to help this revolution, yet maybe the next one will not be practical. Every conflict is different, capabilties differ, and I trust that there are thinking people in the future who will assess all factors.

Hell, if anyone created a binding precedent, it was Pres Bush in Iraq. Perhaps we had to do this because he deposed Saddam? No, we did it because we could without getting thousands of our people killed.


 

True Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 08:02 PM
Gina, you probably do not believe that Gadhafi's forces were going to go into Benghazi in Feb and "go house to house" to crush the rebellion. But I do.

Human compassion gave us the right to stop him, and save lives. That the Libyan people now get a chance at self-determination is a bonus. I guess these people, drunk on western influence, simply do not appreciate their leader's African banking endeavors:



 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 08:46 PM
quote:
They should drop his pathetic dictator a$$ from 30,000 feet over Lockerbie, Scotland without a parachute.
Maybe bush and rick perry will give him asylum in texas.

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 09:02 PM
I'm kinda liking hawk's idea. But whose plane do we use?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 09:19 PM
We lost zero American lives, spent a little over a billion $, don't have Muslims calling for our hides.

Douche bag mccain & his buddies are bitching about Obama "not doing enough".

Put that senile old fart out to pasture.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 10:22 PM
By, with and through. That was General Downing's plan on how to deal with Iraq. Unfortunately, General Shinseki--a slave to the Powell doctrine-wanted Big Army to take care of it instead of letting Special Forces do it By, With and Through indigenous forces.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 10:37 PM
Well, after Obama blew it in Iran and Egypt, this may have worked. Hopefully so. Still, Obama did this because France and the UK have followed our lead and taken crap for it over the last decade and a half and it would have been lame to not help with this project, which they wanted more than anyone. Apparently we should now do the same in Syria, who is the more important country anyway in the scheme of things.

When should we start the Syrian No-fly zone??

Funny how when Bush toppled saddam, all we heard was how the new government was going to be based on sharia law. Now, the new provisional Libyan government taking over Libya has said that their government will be based on.....wait for it......sharia law....but all of a sudden that is mysteriously not mentioned!!

Amazing. Funny how that works.

This still all goes back to the 12 million-plus elections that were held in Iraq after Saddam was toppled.

[Edited on 8/23/2011 by DerekFromCincinnati]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/22/2011 at 11:59 PM
quote:
They should drop his pathetic dictator a$$ from 30,000 feet over Lockerbie, Scotland without a parachute.


You base that on the idea that he did the Lockerbie bombing right?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 12:08 AM
quote:
Gina, you probably do not believe that Gadhafi's forces were going to go into Benghazi in Feb and "go house to house" to crush the rebellion. But I do.

Human compassion gave us the right to stop him, and save lives. That the Libyan people now get a chance at self-determination is a bonus. I guess these people, drunk on western influence, simply do not appreciate their leader's African banking endeavors:





I think the rebellion was led by paid mecenaries, not many regular people. I have previously cited an article which proved there were even Al Qaida people involved in the rebellion working with the hired guns. Al Qaida is happy to help take down any non-Shariah government, because they know whoever gets put in their place will be easy pickin's for them to take down. That's why they are happy to help. They would not on their own have tried to take Qaddafi down, but since this rebellion occurred, they just enhanced it for their future desires. Where will that leave the US when THAt happens? Having to go in to take down an Al Qaida government?

I don't think the people will truly have self determination after he leaves because this is not a true rebellion by the masses, it is not Egypt and what happened there where millions of people rose up and said Mubarak had to go. There were no millions of rebels in Libya. On the contrary, Qaddafi has thousands of people at rallies for him who support him. Look at the video footages of both sides.

Qaddafi wanted to rid himself of having to accept US foreign aid, but the US wants to hold the strings of all these countries with a do as we want or we won't give you the aid that you need. Qaddafi angered Washington because he took foreign aid and then sought to develop a centralized African banking system not beholden to the US. That does not sit well with the IMF and the power elite. That's what's going on there, in addition to the oil.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 07:24 AM
quote:
quote:
They should drop his pathetic dictator a$$ from 30,000 feet over Lockerbie, Scotland without a parachute.


You base that on the idea that he did the Lockerbie bombing right?


even if he didn't, it's still a pretty good idea...

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 08:39 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
They should drop his pathetic dictator a$$ from 30,000 feet over Lockerbie, Scotland without a parachute.


You base that on the idea that he did the Lockerbie bombing right?


even if he didn't, it's still a pretty good idea...


Why soil the good land of Scotland?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 10:08 AM
quote:
I thought you were a fan of the US military, yet now you accuse them of indiscriminate bombing? But yeah, we have zero responsibility here. We were asked by the rebels to do this one task, and we did. The end.



I have already admitted here that I am a flip flopper on these wars, and it has nothing to do with my respect for the military. Quite frankly, it might have to do with seeing families decimated by these wars. Just because there are no boots on the ground, allegedly, does not mean some pilot's spouse and kids are not worreid sick at home, or there is no chance of them being shot down. Part of my volunteer work is raising money and presenting bonds for college to the families who lost loved ones in action. Maybe seeing kids who are afraid of their father because their father came home horribly disfigured is what changed my thought process. I was for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, mainly because of my emotions after 9/11. Now I am done with them.

We thought Bush was bad, and then came Obama who didn't even bother with Congress when waging war. He just handed it over to some global kabal that decided they need our equipment and our people. It's a total farse that we can just go have a "kinetic military action" in Libya or anywhere else and not "own" anything after it. Or the fact that we don't have boots on the ground (I am sure there are no special ops there either or CIA), means that there is somehow no harm to our pilots. Do you don't think we are going to give money to rebuild? Do you think we may be supporting some despot or group of theological maniacs who are going to take over Libya next? We don't even know the people we are supporting!! Libya had the second highest number of insurgents in Iraq next to Saudi Arabia, yet we are to believe this is going to turn into some paradise, ya know, like Egypt, where the military rules and western reporters get beaten and raped...if that's an Arab Spring, I would hate to see summer.


quote:
Human compassion gave us the right to stop him, and save lives.


Were you against the war in Iraq? I am just trying to figure out where the compassion starts and where it ends. The Butcher of Baghdad killed thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, Iranians, Kurds, etc. Are you for bombing the Congo? The people of the Congo have been suffering through rape and murder for decades on end. What about the people in the Sudan? What about the people in the Ivory Coast? What about the people in Somalia? What about the people in Syria? Hell, if these military actions are about human compassion, then we should bomb the living sht out of some parts of this country too.

 

Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 10:53 AM
Well I guess the toppling of Ghadafi is Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moment. Be interesting to see how well Libya does in the aftermath, my guess it'll end up being much like Iraq and Afganistan just one of serveral "failed states" in that part of the world. And of course, the United States is going to all it can do, to help Syria reach the same goal. Onward "Pax Americana" the Empire MUST continue (no matter, if does bankrupt us).

[Edited on 8/23/2011 by sibwlkr]

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 11:04 AM
You may be right Fred. According to this NYT article, it seems there is quite a bit of confusion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/23/world/africa/23libya.html?_r=2&hp

 

True Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 11:18 AM
Jim, I already discussed why this one act of charity does not bind us to another, so I will not repeat myself.

A right to do something does not equal an obligation to do so. I used the word "practical" before; that is the test. If you want to make the case on what we reasonably can do in Syria, I'm all ears.

I did not support Iraq.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 12:59 PM
quote:
If you want to make the case on what we reasonably can do in Syria, I'm all ears.



quote:
Human compassion gave us the right to stop him, and save lives.


There is no reasonable case for what we can do in Syria. We can do the same thing we just did in Libya, which is completely unreasonable in my view. We can remove one madman and replace him with a pack of madmen or just create a power vacuum, like we just did. And maybe we should get a better idea of who these rebels are before we throw them an act of charity: Libyan rebel leader, Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, stated that jihadists who fought against allied troops in Iraq are on the front lines of the battle against Muammar Gaddafi’s regime. Isn't that nice? So the same people we side with, are not only against Gaddafi, they are trying to kill our troops too. We never cease to stop pssing into the wind with our foreign policy.


You cited "compassion" as giving us the right to go into Libya. I don't think you can attribute compassion to one group of humans and not to another who are undergoing equally horrible attrocities. If compassion is the "right" by which we send our equipment, men and women, and money to war, then how do you reconcile this "act of charity" and compassion with places like the Sudan, etc? If you are about compassion, then you should be banging the war drum right now for the millions suffering around the globe. The fact is that none of this is about compassion or some act of charity. If it truly were, than we would be in the Sudan,the Congo, Ivory Coast, China, etc.


Totally unrelated, I think we just had a earthquake in NYC.





 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 03:14 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
They should drop his pathetic dictator a$$ from 30,000 feet over Lockerbie, Scotland without a parachute.


You base that on the idea that he did the Lockerbie bombing right?


even if he didn't, it's still a pretty good idea...


People are not getting the FULL story about the bombing. There were a lot of other things going on and yes it involves people from our govt.

According to a BBC report (BBC News Lockerbie: Conspiracy theories):

A Pan Am investigation is believed to have concluded that the Lockerbie bomb was targeted specifically to kill a small band of US Defence Intelligence Agency operatives (including Major Charles McKee) who had uncovered a drugs ring run by a CIA unit in Lebanon.

The drugs-ring is said to have been set up by Israeli Mossad agents. Reportedly, the drugs ring involved ‘CIA-asset’ Monzer al-Kassar, a Syrian with links to the brother of Syria’s President Assad. Reportedly Monzer al-Kassar was involved with Lt-Colonel Oliver North, of Iran-Contra fame.

According to the site ISGP.:

“The CIA and its allies allowed the Contras to ship huge amounts of cocaine into the United States and sell it to mafia families in New York, Los Angeles, Texas, Miami, and a number of other places.

“The proceeds of these sales allowed the Contras to buy (third-rate) arms and other supplies from the United States… “The Israelis played a major role in the whole Iran-Contra affair. “They were used as an intermediary to sell the arms to Iran. “They also supported the United States in training the Contras, and apparently also in shipping the drugs and assassinating those who tried to expose these schemes.

Certain people called Boas, Mathot, Vanden Boeynants and Beaurir reportedly had their names linked to the Dutroux child abuse scandal in Belgium, and to Iran-Contra. [Book "The Franklin Cover Up - Child Abuse, Satanism and Murder in Nebraska" by John W. DeCamp] According to a book on the Franklin Affair, “A former security guard for (Larry) King has sworn that he saw (Oliver) North attend at least one of King’s parties, a party at which children were also present.”

“Incredibly, not only have the Belgians that were involved in Iran Contra been accused of child abuse (Boas, Mathot, Vanden Boeynants and Beaurir), but North and his employer, vice president and later president George Bush, were uncomfortably close to the Franklin child abuse affair in the United States. “Both were mentioned by witnesses as having attended the parties of alleged child abuser, Satanist, Contra supporter, money launderer and drug dealer Lawrence E. ‘Larry’ King.

TIME magazine, 27 April 1992, tells us more about Major Charles McKee (Pan Am 103 Why Did They Die? – TIME)

According to Time Magazine, Charles McKee’s mother suspects that it was a government action that indirectly led to her only son’s death. Beulah McKee is quoted as saying: “For three years, I’ve had a feeling that if Chuck hadn’t been on that plane, it wouldn’t have been bombed… I’ve never been satisfied at all by what the people in Washington told me.”

In Beirut, McKee was a military attache assigned to the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA).

An investigation by Time disclosed that:

According to “an FBI field report from Germany”, the bomb probably went onto the plane in Frankfurt, not in Malta. The flight may have been targeted “because on board was an intelligence team led by Charles McKee.” Pan Am’s lawyers hired Interfor, a New York firm run by Juval Aviv.

Al Kassar

The central figure in the Interfor investigation is Syrian arms and drug trafficker, Monzer al-Kassar. Kassar “was part of the covert network run by U.S. Lieut. Colonel Oliver North.”
A CIA unit code-named COREA, based in Wiesbaden, Germany “was reported to be trafficking in drugs and arms…”

According to Aviv, “agents in COREA’s Wiesbaden headquarters allowed al- Kassar to continue running his smuggling routes to American cities…” It is assumed that Al-Kassar “wouldn’t want anything to disrupt his profitable CIA-assisted drug and arms business.” Reportedly, Al-Kassar figured out that Pan Am Flight 103 was a target and “notified the COREA unit.”

In Frankfurt, a polygraphist administered lie-detector tests to Pan Am baggage handlers Kilin Caslan Tuzcu and Roland O’Neill. Pan Am believes that they were the only ones who were in a position to place the bomb-laden bag aboard Flight 103. The polygraphist testified thatTuzcu “was not truthful when he said he did not switch the suitcases.”

The polygraphist also told the grand jury, “It is my opinion that Roland O’Neill wasn’t truthful when he stated he did not see the suitcase being switched, and when he stated that he did not know what was in the switched suitcase.”

Coleman

In 1987, Lester Coleman, an undercover Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) operative, was transferred from Lebanon to Cyprus, where he began work for the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA).

In Nicosia, Coleman saw CIA (COREA) shipments of heroin “grow into a torrent”.
The drugs couriers with their heroin arrived by ferry from the Lebanon. The drugs couriers then received their travel orders from the DEA. The couriers “were escorted to the Larnaca airport by the Cypriot national police and sent on their way to Frankfurt and other European transit points”.

Coleman says the DEA paid him with unsigned Visa traveler’s checks issued by B.C.C.I. in Luxembourg. Coleman says that informant Ibrahim el-Jorr told him that that in Frankfurt airport suitcases containing heroin were put on flights to the U.S. by agents or other sources working in the baggage area. Reportedly, Germany’s BKA federal police was involved in the plot, as was the UK Customs and Excise service.

Coleman became a witness for Pan Am.

[Book: Trail of the Octopus - Behind the Lockerbie Disaster by Donald Goddard and Lester K. Coleman]

Informants had told Coleman that al-Kassar and the Syrian President’s brother Rifaat Assad were taking over drug production in Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley, under protection of the Syrian army. Coleman says he learned that the main European transfer point for their heroin shipments was the Frankfurt airport.

Charles McKee’s team in Beirut got wind of Al-Kassar’s CIA connection. The team was outraged that the COREA unit in Wiesbaden was doing business with a Syrian who had terrorist connections. A key member of the team was Matthew Gannon, 34, the CIA’s deputy station chief in Beirut. McKee and Gannon expressed their anger about al-Kassar to the CIA HQ in Langley in the USA, but they got no response.

Gannon’s father-in-law Thomas Twetten was then chief of Middle East operations based in Langley. He was also Oliver North’s CIA contact. McKee, Gannon and three other members of the team decided to fly back to CIA HQ and expose the COREA unit’s secret deal with al- Kassar.

They booked seats on Pan Am 103.

In his book, Lockerbie: The Tragedy of Flight 103, Scottish radio reporter David Johnston described how CIA agents helicoptered into Lockerbie shortly after the crash. They were looking for McKee’s suitcase. “Having found part of their quarry,” Johnston wrote, “the CIA had no intention of following the exacting rules of evidence employed by the Scottish police. They took the suitcase and its contents into the chopper and flew with it to an unknown destination.”

Several days later the empty suitcase was returned to the same spot, where Johnston reported that it was “found” by two British Transport Police officers, “who in their ignorance were quite happy to sign statements about the case’s discovery.” M. Gene Wheaton, a retired U.S. military-intelligence officer, said: “A couple of my old black ops buddies in the Pentagon believe the Pan Am bombers were gunning for McKee’s … team.”

Victor Marchetti, former executive assistant to the CIA’s deputy director, and co-author of The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence, said of the plot against PanAm 103: “The Mossad knew about it and didn’t give proper warning.”

Pan Am 103 Why Did They Die? – TIME

http://www.prisonplanet.com/lockerbie-links-to-franklin-dutroux-mossad-mcke e.html

http://www.federaljack.com/?tag=lockerbie-bombing

REMARKS:
"The team was outraged that the COREA unit in Wiesbaden was doing business with a Syrian who had terrorist connections. A key member of the team was Matthew Gannon, 34, the CIA’s deputy station chief in Beirut. McKee and Gannon expressed their anger about al-Kassar to the CIA HQ in Langley in the USA, but they got no response".

"McKee, Gannon and three other members of the team decided to fly back to CIA HQ and expose the COREA unit’s secret deal with al- Kassar. They booked seats on Pan Am 103. In his book, Lockerbie: The Tragedy of Flight 103, Scottish radio reporter David Johnston described how CIA agents helicoptered into Lockerbie shortly after the crash. They were looking for McKee’s suitcase. "

JUST COINCIDENCES? Not likely. Agents complain to higher ups in Langley, about corruption, get no response, get booked on the Lockerbie plane that gets blown up. Agents come looking for his suitcase. And you think Qaddafi did it. I don't.






[Edited on 8/23/2011 by gina]

 

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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 03:35 PM
quote:
By, with and through. That was General Downing's plan on how to deal with Iraq. Unfortunately, General Shinseki--a slave to the Powell doctrine-wanted Big Army to take care of it instead of letting Special Forces do it By, With and Through indigenous forces.


All Shinseki - whose career was destroyed by those who wouldn't listen to anyone who had the AUDACITY to speak to power - did was tell the truth, that it would take a force of 200,000 to accomplish RUMSFELD'S plan.

Which the surge proved to be indisputably true.

 

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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 03:37 PM
quote:
Well, after Obama blew it in Iran and Egypt, this may have worked. Hopefully so. Still, Obama did this because France and the UK have followed our lead and taken crap for it over the last decade and a half and it would have been lame to not help with this project, which they wanted more than anyone. Apparently we should now do the same in Syria, who is the more important country anyway in the scheme of things.

When should we start the Syrian No-fly zone??

Funny how when Bush toppled saddam, all we heard was how the new government was going to be based on sharia law. Now, the new provisional Libyan government taking over Libya has said that their government will be based on.....wait for it......sharia law....but all of a sudden that is mysteriously not mentioned!!

Amazing. Funny how that works.

This still all goes back to the 12 million-plus elections that were held in Iraq after Saddam was toppled.

[Edited on 8/23/2011 by DerekFromCincinnati]


You mean the Iraqi elections that offered only candidates that were carefully chosen by the US government? Free elections, my ass....

 

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  posted on 8/23/2011 at 03:41 PM
quote:
quote:
I thought you were a fan of the US military, yet now you accuse them of indiscriminate bombing? But yeah, we have zero responsibility here. We were asked by the rebels to do this one task, and we did. The end.



I have already admitted here that I am a flip flopper on these wars, and it has nothing to do with my respect for the military. Quite frankly, it might have to do with seeing families decimated by these wars. Just because there are no boots on the ground, allegedly, does not mean some pilot's spouse and kids are not worreid sick at home, or there is no chance of them being shot down. Part of my volunteer work is raising money and presenting bonds for college to the families who lost loved ones in action. Maybe seeing kids who are afraid of their father because their father came home horribly disfigured is what changed my thought process. I was for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, mainly because of my emotions after 9/11. Now I am done with them.

We thought Bush was bad, and then came Obama who didn't even bother with Congress when waging war. He just handed it over to some global kabal that decided they need our equipment and our people. It's a total farse that we can just go have a "kinetic military action" in Libya or anywhere else and not "own" anything after it. Or the fact that we don't have boots on the ground (I am sure there are no special ops there either or CIA), means that there is somehow no harm to our pilots. Do you don't think we are going to give money to rebuild? Do you think we may be supporting some despot or group of theological maniacs who are going to take over Libya next? We don't even know the people we are supporting!! Libya had the second highest number of insurgents in Iraq next to Saudi Arabia, yet we are to believe this is going to turn into some paradise, ya know, like Egypt, where the military rules and western reporters get beaten and raped...if that's an Arab Spring, I would hate to see summer.


quote:
Human compassion gave us the right to stop him, and save lives.


Were you against the war in Iraq? I am just trying to figure out where the compassion starts and where it ends. The Butcher of Baghdad killed thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, Iranians, Kurds, etc. Are you for bombing the Congo? The people of the Congo have been suffering through rape and murder for decades on end. What about the people in the Sudan? What about the people in the Ivory Coast? What about the people in Somalia? What about the people in Syria? Hell, if these military actions are about human compassion, then we should bomb the living sht out of some parts of this country too.


Jim, I have a ton of respect for you, Bro, as I have told you privately - unlike those are unwilling and unable to uncouple their belief systems from the neocon imperialistic propaganda that got us into so many international misadventures in the past...and yes, Derek, I mean you.

 

____________________
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A Peach Supreme



Karma:
Posts: 2925
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Registered: 7/14/2005
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  posted on 8/30/2011 at 09:47 PM
August 29, 2011
NATO’s Teachable Moment

The hunt for Muammar el-Qaddafi goes on, but his tyrannical 42-year rule over Libya is finished. The Libyan people bore the brunt of the fighting and dying that brought him down. But NATO air power played an important role. Airstrikes in March stopped Colonel Qaddafi’s forces from storming Benghazi and slaughtering its inhabitants. Continued pounding degraded the regime’s firepower, giving the rebels time to organize and train. NATO’s refusal to back away — and its decision to bring the fight to the skies over Tripoli — helped push Qaddafi cronies to switch sides.

The Western allies, especially the British and French forces backed up by the United States, can be justly proud. So can Prime Minister David Cameron of Britain, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France and President Obama, who ignored the naysayers who claimed that Libya was a quagmire and the battle not worth fighting.

But it would be a mistake to deny the serious problems revealed by the six-month campaign. This was NATO’s first attempt at sustained combat operations with the United States playing a support role. Europe’s military capabilities fell far short of what was needed, even for such a limited fight.

President Obama, who pressed hard for NATO involvement, rightly insisted that Europe, along with Canada, take the lead. It is reasonable to expect the wealthy nations of Europe to easily handle a limited mission in their own backyard that involved no commitment of ground troops. Reasonable, but, as it turned out, not realistic.

Shortfalls of specialized aircraft, bombs and targeting specialists plagued NATO operations. The effects would have been even more damaging if Washington had not stepped in to help plug some of these critical gaps.

Apart from Britain and France, most European militaries have failed to keep up with technological advances in battlefield management and communications. They train their forces to defend largely unthreatened borders at home, leaving them unwilling and unprepared to defend common interests abroad, from Afghanistan to Libya.

Even Britain and France have skimped on munitions and targeters, making it hard for them to carry out multiple missions (both are also fighting in Afghanistan). Now, Britain and France are planning force and equipment cuts that threaten their capacity to take part in future extended foreign operations.

For decades, European nations have counted on a free-spending Pentagon to provide the needed capabilities they failed to provide themselves. The Pentagon is now under intense and legitimate pressure to meet America’s security needs more economically. It can no longer afford to provide affluent allies with a free ride.

In June, Defense Secretary Robert Gates pointedly told European NATO allies that they risked becoming militarily irrelevant unless they stepped up investment in their forces and equipment. His successor, Leon Panetta, needs to drive that message home.

European leaders need to ask themselves a fundamental question: If it was this hard taking on a ragtag army like Qaddafi’s, what would it be like to have to fight a real enemy?



Holy crap! I'm in agreement with a NYT editorial ! Elizabeth! It's the big one!

 

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Mark Ramsey

 
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