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Author: Subject: JDLPIRATE is selling shows on eBay

True Peach





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  posted on 7/11/2011 at 08:57 PM
I came across this eBay listing by JDLPIRATE in Greenville, SC

DEREK TRUCKS BAND LIVE FRANKFURT JAZZ 2007
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110714051922&ssP ageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Looking at completed items I came across this one:

ALLMAN BROTHERS LIVE A&R STUDIOS 1971
http://cgi.ebay.com/ALLMAN-BROTHERS-LIVE-A-R-STUDIOS-1971-/110712685416?pt= Music_CDs&hash=item19c6fd8368

JDLPIRATE who trades here sometimes is also registered in Greenville, SC. That's enough to convince me: He won't ever get anything from me again, nor will anyone who shares with him from this day on.

If he follows you on a vine, please do not send anything to him.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 12:34 PM
quote:
If he follows you on a vine, please do not send anything to him.

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 12:59 PM
i have that exact same ABB boot.

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 01:00 PM
quote:
I checked out these Ebay links, and these are just used CD's, even if they are boots. It's not like they were home-ripped and put up for sale. Selling second-hand CD's on Ebay is perfectly legit.


NO. It is not 'legit' or legal or ethical to sell 'bootlegs' even if they are made to look like official releases.

This is the kind of thing that can make great artists like ABB put an end to their free taping / trading policy!

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 01:46 PM
quote:
RLY found the same boot somewhere too, shows that JDL didn't make this.


He may not have "Made" these, but it sure appears as though he is selling them.

Perhaps he can check into this thread an offer up an explanation.

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 02:08 PM
I AM SELLING CD'S THAT I BOUGHT ON EBAY FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS BOTTOM LINE IF THESE WERE COMMERCIAL RELEASES WE WOULD ALL BE BETTER OFF THE GREEDY RECORD LABELS HAVE CREATED THE SITUATION I HAVE OOFERED SOME VINES UP THAT ARE ONLY CDR AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SOte]
quote:
RLY found the same boot somewhere too, shows that JDL didn't make this.


He may not have "Made" these, but it sure appears as though he is selling them.

Perhaps he can check into this thread an offer up an explanation.


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 02:32 PM
The question that remains unanswered is did JBLPirate make these, or buy them in a store?

If he made them he is breaking copyright law.

If these are boots he bought and is reselling, the issue is less clear.
raymondluxuryyacht says one is a boot he owns, So I would have to give JDLpirate
the benefit of the doubt on the other.

I don't think reselling the boots is illegal, the act of making them is.


I have tried to stop folks from selling Demo CDs on Ebay by reporting it, but Ebay could care less about enforcement, they want their cut of the sale.

An effective tool to stopping boots is to contact bidders and offer a freebie or bnp of the show and watch the bids disappear. But some collectors want physical copies of bootlegs and that is what the seller is counting on.




 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 03:37 PM
I agree with the scramblybones.

I don't see where JDLPIRATE has broken any rule about selling AUD


should we ban abnsj from vines for false accusations? j/k


I am not surprised the A&R show has been booted, it's a high quality FM source.

But folks here have traded that one for a long time here. I first offered than one in '99
as my newbie trade.

I got it from a Deadhead.


 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 03:41 PM
Although the arguments spacemonkey & scrambldybones makes may sound "reasonable" on the surface they are anything but. Sales of copyrighted material without the copyright holders permission is illegal. Illegal. There are no grey areas that encompass pressed bootlegs. While many of us here may have bought bootlegs at one time or another before we were aware of vibrant trading communities and the full ramifications of copyright law it does not now give us the right to resell copyrighted material without the copyright holders permission. The sale is illegal. If I need to make this more clear for you try this: "I'm sorry officer -- I was just selling the cocaine I bought from my dealer because I found it was illegal & I just wanted to get my money back." There are no intervening acts in either of these cases that allow the sales to occur legally.

Further, bear in mind, taping and trading shows is in most cases at the permission of the artists and in other cases at their forbearance. It is done with the explicit understanding that noone profits.

I'm surprised and a bit dismayed that any of this needs to be stated here ...

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 03:55 PM
The law breakers in my view are the ones making commercial issues of copyright material and selling them through dealers or the black market. They are engaged in a criminal commercial venture to steal from the artist. There is no argument there.

I know from my own dealing with Ebay, that these types of sales are considered selling a piece of property that the owner legally paid for, even if the source was illegal.

That is how it was explained to me by Ebay and Ebay Sellers. If that is not legal then go after them.

It is a grey area, but one can hardly accuse JDLPIRATE of selling AUD as the title of this thread suggests by placing it in the vines section. I find that a false accusation.

I don't wish to have that construed to say I support buying bootlegs as travelswsage suggests. I said the way to stop these sales was to contact bidders and offer them the show for free or bnp. I think that shows my position clearly, even if travelswsage missed it.

HTH




 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 04:32 PM
an accurate heading for the thread would be

JDLpirate is reselling bootlegs on Ebay.

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 04:46 PM
quote:

(Another thing, every single bootleg recording was sold at some point to make it to our banquet here. Not that I condone it, it's just what happens.)


Untrue. The boots I have offered from my original stash were freely given and/or traded for in the 70's and 80's. Some of these have no other source than my own.
IMHO, selling "commercial" bootlegs is wrong. In addition, they are often mashups and contain incorrect information, which only perpetuates the confusion.
Banning someone from trading is another story, though. Personally, I don't have time for that drama.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 06:26 PM
quote:
Here is the question: Does he deserve to be blocked from vining? That is the assertion of the original poster.


Here's another question...

"Why do not more people from this site sell the music they acquire here"?

Because it is not cool.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 7/12/2011 at 08:28 PM
My original statement is 100% accurate... jdlpirate is selling unauthorized copies of shows on eBay. Selling stolen property is not legal, even if you bought it. Whether or not he is copying what he sells, he is in violation of the principles and policies of the bands that allow us free distribution of recordings of their shows.

Here is the Govt Mule taping policy, which is typical for bands that allow audio taping:

All participants in audio recording exchange (regardless of format) acknowledge and respect the copyrights and exclusive ownership of themusic and performances by the performers, writers and publishers. All taping must be for personal use only, which may include trading (via analog or digital tape, CD, or digital file transfer). Recordings may be traded only for an equivalent amount of similar media (cassettes or CDs, pre-recorded or blank). If we have chosen to offer for sale (via physical media such as CD, Cassette, or via digital download) a particular Mule performance, this "official" version will take precedence over amateur recordings and said performance should no longer be traded. In no case may any officially-released Gov't Mule recording (live or studio) be duplicated or otherwise traded or offered.

Audience taping at Mule concerts is authorized for non-commercial purposes only. Unauthorized sale, duplication and/or distribution is strictly forbidden. All Mule performances and recordings are the exclusive property of Gov't Mule. All rights reserved. The rights to record Gov't Mule performances set forth in this policy constitute an express, revocable license. We reserve the right to withdraw our sanction of recording, tape trading, and/or non-commercial digital audio file transfers on a case specific basis or in general, as we deem necessary. No waiver of any copyright or trademark right is intended.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 10:20 AM
And for those of you who think it's OK to sell bootlegs you purchased, here is eBay's policy on selling them. Even if the recordings ARE authorized, as the policy above states, the artist retains ownership of the copyright and you cannot sell copies unless you have authorization from the copyright owner.

Policy overview

Bootleg recordings are unauthorized recordings of concerts or live performances. We donít allow listings for bootleg recordings on eBay.

Bands, performers, writers, and publishers usually own the copyright to live performances, so they have the right to determine when and how performances can be reproduced. Unless the reproduction of a concert or performance is authorized by the copyright owner, its agent or the law, it's considered an unauthorized or "bootleg" copy. Selling unauthorized copies is against the law and not allowed on eBay.

Make sure your listing follows these guidelines. If it doesn't, it may be removed, and you may be subject to a range of other actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 12:26 PM
quote:
absnj is absolutely correct. And while we're getting technical, this goes for ANY unauthorized reproduction and transferral (trading, giving away) of copyrighted material.

Sure, the Mule allows taping, and the ABB, and the Dead, they do not represent the majority of artists. Allowing taping is an unusually liberal and generous policy. What about all the other groups traded on here that have never allowed taping, and are totally against it?

Take the Pink Floyd Zabriskie vine currently circulating for example, you think Floyd wants that out there? That is a bootleg record. It was illegal to make it in the first place. Should we prosecute the prostitute or the trick?
It's stolen music, period. Same goes for any Stones, and Who, and Tull, to cite the most obvious examples. I wouldn't want to be standing anywhere near Pete Townshend with a Who concert tape in hand, lest I get a guitar across my skull.

The copyright act is easy to read, and quite plain and simple. Here it is again.

United States Code, Title 17, "the Copyright Act"
Section 1101(b)
This section specifically addresses "Unauthorized fixation and trafficking in sound recordings and music videos".

ß 1101. Unauthorized fixation and trafficking in sound recordings and music videos

(a) Unauthorized Acts. - Anyone who, without the consent of the performer or
performers involved -
(1) fixes the sounds or sounds and images of a live musical performance
in a copy or phonorecord, or reproduces copies or phonorecords of such
a performance from an unauthorized fixation,
(2) transmits or otherwise communicates to the public the sounds or
sounds and images of a live musical performance, or
(3) distributes or offers to distribute,
sells or offers to sell, rents
or offers to rent, or traffics in any copy or phonorecord fixed as
described in paragraph (1),


So while you are competing for HTW sainthood and using JDL as your scapegoat, you might want to take a closer look at all the stolen music you have collected, and consider whether the artists would be happy you have these unauthorized recordings. Oh, why, thank you Mr. Jagger, for all the free music, you are such a generous hippy. And we all had you pegged for an unscrupulous music industry mogul ! What a bro ! Peace, man.

As far as your JDL b.s. goes, I combed through his posts (forgive me for spying JDL, but this issue really chaps my hide), and NOT ONE of the shows he has traded here is on Ebay. The Ebay CD's are just boots he bought there, and [A] HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SITE, OR THE VINING AND TRADING THAT GOES ON HERE

AND [B] YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS SNOOPING AROUND THE WEB AND BROADCASTING SOMEONE'S PERSONAL TRANSACTIONS, THAT ARE NOT RELATED TO THIS WEBSITE, AND MAKING PUBLIC ACCUSATIONS, PARTICULARLY IN REGARDS TO ACTIVITIES THAT YOU YOURSELF ARE INVOLVED IN.


So spare me your sanctimonious hypocrisy.


Is it "right" or "cool" to SELL unauthorized concert recordings?

Yes or No?

It really is that simple.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 01:18 PM
quote:

As far as your JDL b.s. goes, I combed through his posts (forgive me for spying JDL, but this issue really chaps my hide), and NOT ONE of the shows he has traded here is on Ebay. The Ebay CD's are just boots he bought there, and [A] HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS SITE, OR THE VINING AND TRADING THAT GOES ON HERE

AND [B] YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS SNOOPING AROUND THE WEB AND BROADCASTING SOMEONE'S PERSONAL TRANSACTIONS, THAT ARE NOT RELATED TO THIS WEBSITE, AND MAKING PUBLIC ACCUSATIONS, PARTICULARLY IN REGARDS TO ACTIVITIES THAT YOU YOURSELF ARE INVOLVED IN.


So spare me your sanctimonious hypocrisy.


This action has EVERYTHING to do with what goes on here and I am sorry you perceive it as hypocrisy. Selling these shows is in direct opposition to the trading that goes on here.

If someone chooses to post on the web, that's public, not private, so there is no "snooping" going on. I am not making accusations, I am stating the facts: JDLPIRATE is selling shows that should be freely traded, and has been doing so since at least 2008.

Under no circumstances is that acceptable.

 

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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 05:03 PM
OK family, I'm in an ethical dilemma and need guidance. I want to do what it right here, so I'm asking for un-biased, non-judgemental input on what to do. I didn't visit the Forum on Monday or Tuesday, and it was probably 4ish today before I got on. I checked PM's on a Blackberry last night and on the way here I mailed a vine to JDL Pirate. Had no idea about this post. The young man is also behind me on another vine. What do I do? I've never had any problems with this gentleman, but I feel that I must abide by the rules of those whom have been here much longer than I and accepted me into the family. I plan on hanging around, so this is a big deal to me. Let the words of wisdom guide me. PM if you prefer. Democracy and the wisdom of the elders will determine my actions. I just wanna do what is right to remain in the good graces of the entire family here.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 05:05 PM
quote:
No, it's not cool. You got that right. I wouldn't do it. It's also not cool, according to most artists, to make or possess bootlegs, period. How many unauthorized recordings do you have?


Every single bootleg I own, was traded for. I do not sell them. Ever.

Not cool.

 

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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 05:19 PM
quote:
quote:
No, it's not cool. You got that right. I wouldn't do it. It's also not cool, according to most artists, to make or possess bootlegs, period. How many unauthorized recordings do you have?


Every single bootleg I own, was traded for. I do not sell them. Ever.

Not cool.


I don't sell them either. Ever.Not cool. I abide by Sal's rule. But is he (JDL) guilty V? Yah or nay...I saw arguments for and against. Thanks. John

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 05:22 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
No, it's not cool. You got that right. I wouldn't do it. It's also not cool, according to most artists, to make or possess bootlegs, period. How many unauthorized recordings do you have?


Every single bootleg I own, was traded for. I do not sell them. Ever.

Not cool.


I don't sell them either. Ever.Not cool. I abide by Sal's rule. But is he (JDL) guilty V? Yah or nay...I saw arguments for and against. Thanks. John


If he is selling them?..Imho,...Yes

 

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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 05:30 PM
Thanks brother V.

 

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Life Aint what it seems, its a Boulevard of Broken Dreams

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 05:40 PM
quote:
Thanks brother V.


No worries my friend, your opinion is just as important if not more so.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 05:43 PM
quote:
And for those of you who think it's OK to sell bootlegs you purchased, here is eBay's policy on selling them. Even if the recordings ARE authorized, as the policy above states, the artist retains ownership of the copyright and you cannot sell copies unless you have authorization from the copyright owner.

Policy overview

Bootleg recordings are unauthorized recordings of concerts or live performances. We donít allow listings for bootleg recordings on eBay.

Bands, performers, writers, and publishers usually own the copyright to live performances, so they have the right to determine when and how performances can be reproduced. Unless the reproduction of a concert or performance is authorized by the copyright owner, its agent or the law, it's considered an unauthorized or "bootleg" copy. Selling unauthorized copies is against the law and not allowed on eBay.

Make sure your listing follows these guidelines. If it doesn't, it may be removed, and you may be subject to a range of other actions, including limits of your buying and selling privileges and suspension of your account.


Good luck getting Ebay to enforce it, I have complained about selling of bootlegs and
demo records many many times, and nothing is ever done.


 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2011 at 05:48 PM
quote:
quote:
No, it's not cool. You got that right. I wouldn't do it. It's also not cool, according to most artists, to make or possess bootlegs, period. How many unauthorized recordings do you have?


Every single bootleg I own, was traded for. I do not sell them. Ever.



That distinction does not absolve you of breaking copyright law.
if the recording is not authorized, then you are guilty.



[Edited on 7/13/2011 by spacemonkey]

 

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