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Author: Subject: Ohio police and firefighter's not happy about collective bargaining cap

Maximum Peach





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  posted on 3/31/2011 at 10:05 PM

CLEVELAND (Associated Press) --
Unlike Wisconsin's high-profile effort to limit collective bargaining rights for public workers, Ohio's new law includes police officers and firefighters _ who say it threatens the safety of them and the people they protect.

Opponents have vowed to put the issue on the November ballot, giving voters a chance to strike down the law. The firefighters' union in Cleveland plans to hit the streets and help gather signatures.

Patrolman Michael Cox, a 15-year veteran of Cleveland's police force, said Ohio overlooked the inherent risks of police and firefighting work when lawmakers included them in the bill, which passed the Legislature on Wednesday and was signed into law by Republican Gov. John Kasich on Thursday.

"We don't run from the house fire; we don't run from the gunshot," Cox said. "We're the guys that got to say, 'OK, we're going to go fix this problem real fast.'"

Under the Ohio plan, police and firefighters won't be able to bargain with cities over the number of people required to be on duty. That means they can't negotiate the number of staff in fire trucks or police cars, for instance.

Supporters of the bargaining limits say decisions on how to equip police and fire departments should be in the hands of city officials, not union members.

"Shouldn't it be the employer who decides what's safe and what's not safe?" said state Rep. Joseph Uecker, who was a police officer in the Cincinnati area for 15 years. "Don't you think they are the ones who should decide whether they should have one or two or three people in a car? That's what we call management rights."

Cleveland police Officer Anthony Sauto is recovering after a bullet that pierced his leg a few months ago during a night shift on the west side of town. The wound will heal, but he worries that patrolling the streets will be even more dangerous when he returns to work.

"That's my No. 1 concern," Sauto said. "We put our lives on the line."

The 350,000 public workers covered under the law can still negotiate wages and certain work conditions _ but not health care, sick time or pension benefits. The measure also does away with automatic pay raises and bases future wage increases on merit.

Wisconsin's measure covers 175,000 workers but exempts police and firefighters.

Kasich has said his $55.5 billion, two-year state budget counts on unspecified savings from lifting union protections to fill an $8 billion hole. He defended the new law Thursday night.

"This bill, Senate Bill 5, does not cut anybody's salary. This bill, Senate Bill 5, does not take away anybody's pension. This bill, Senate Bill 5, does not destroy anybody's health care," Kasich said. "And anybody who's been out there saying that is just factually wrong."

In northeast Ohio, fear that a loss of bargaining will result in layoffs and further cutbacks is rippling through the law enforcement community.

One of the biggest worries is one-man patrol cars, said Steve Loomis, president of the city's local police union. Under the current contract, Cleveland police officers are required to have at least two officers in a patrol car when driving through certain neighborhoods, Loomis said.

After Kasich's signature on the bill, Democrats have 90 days to gather more than 230,000 valid signatures to get it on the fall ballot. Loomis believes that if Senate Bill 5 goes unchallenged, the two-man rule will be the first thing to go.

"They're going to give up our safety for the illusion that there's more police on the street," Loomis said. "That's horrifying. Guys get killed."

And equipment that police officers say is vital but that the city says is too expensive _ like computers in patrol cars, a rarity in Cleveland _ will be harder to get without the complete bargaining process, Loomis said.

State lawmakers did make last-minute changes to the measure in the House that allow police and fire officials to bargain for vests, shields and other safety gear.

Mike Norman, secretary for Cleveland's local firefighters union, said that's a cold comfort compared with what he called an "all-out assault" on the union.

"Changes to the game supersede the topics that we're allowed to discuss," he said. "This isn't something that needed to be tweaked a little bit."

As Cleveland's population has declined in the past decade, so have its ranks of police officers. Two rounds of layoffs have left the police force more than 300 officers smaller since 2004.

The street crimes unit, which used to investigate prostitution and gambling, is no more. The auto theft unit was also disbanded. And a city that stretches 22 miles along Lake Erie no longer has a single police boat to patrol its own waters; that job is now left to the Coast Guard, Loomis said.

The fire department has lost more than 200 members and closed five companies since 2004. City Public Safety Director Martin Flask said all furloughed police and fire employees have been recalled to duty, but he acknowledged that staffing levels have declined in recent years.

"What this bill is going to do," Loomis said, "is allow bean counters and people who have never walked a step in our shoes, sitting behind a mahogany desk, to make decisions on our safety."

The office of Mayor Frank Jackson did not respond to requests for comment on the police and firefighters' complaints.

Like other public employees, law enforcement officials are also worried about things like rising health care costs. Youngstown firefighter Dave Cook, 43, thinks it will be tough to attract qualified candidates to the dangerous profession if health care costs go through the roof.

"Who's going to come into a police or fireman job when the starting pay is $24,000 a year?" he said. "What type of recruits are you going to get?"

On his way to work Thursday morning, Cleveland police Officer Henry Steel said most officers would support the effort to repeal the bill. But at work, he said, it will be business as usual.

"We're all professionals," he said. "We're going to do our job, period. We're going to do our job. We may not be too happy about it."






 

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True Peach



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  posted on 3/31/2011 at 10:38 PM
quote:
"What this bill is going to do," Loomis said, "is allow bean counters and people who have never walked a step in our shoes, sitting behind a mahogany desk, to make decisions on our safety."
quote:


Can't sum it up any better than that.

Sad.

 

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  posted on 3/31/2011 at 11:55 PM
It's just wrong. The things being cut are the very services most important to our society as a whole. Just wrong, wrong, wrong.

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 12:51 AM
quote:
Supporters of the bargaining limits say decisions on how to equip police and fire departments should be in the hands of city officials, not union members.

"Shouldn't it be the employer who decides what's safe and what's not safe?" said state Rep. Joseph Uecker, who was a police officer in the Cincinnati area for 15 years. "Don't you think they are the ones who should decide whether they should have one or two or three people in a car? That's what we call management rights."



Why is that wrong?? It is the folks that run the cities who have to decide what to cut when facing a real debt problem. So, why should the unions be the ones who decides how many cops can be employed and how many are put on the streets by a city and tax payers who pay their salary????

quote:
The 350,000 public workers covered under the law can still negotiate wages and certain work conditions _ but not health care, sick time or pension benefits. The measure also does away with automatic pay raises and bases future wage increases on merit.



I still believe the governors should have kept the collective bargaining that was in place already and went from there. But concerning the merit thing- why should lousy workers get the same raise as the better workers???

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 01:26 AM
I hope you don't need the police or fire department one day. Who know who the city might decide needs to show up.

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:52 AM
KASICH'S BUSINESS MODEL FOR OHIO CREATES BUCKEYE SERFS



March 20, 2011
The Marietta Times

The grand plan of "emperor" Kasich is based upon the notion that the state
of Ohio should be operated "like a business." While this might sound like a
good idea to some, Ohio's citizens might want to learn more about the
"model" behind so sweeping a plan.

The governor's background suggests that the model might be the now-defunct
Lehman Brothers investment firm where Kasich was employed as their Ohio
CEO from 2001 until 2008. During that time, he received a compensation of
$587, 175 for doing roughly three days work each week. Of that sum,
$400,000 was a "bonus" paid for his political services as a former congressman
in setting up the investment with Lehman Brothers of $432 million from the
Ohio State Teachers' Retirement System and the Ohio Public Employees'
Retirement System (OPERS) -- money that was later lost when Lehman
crashed in 2009. During that time, Kasich was also employed as a FOX News
pundit, a position he used to tout his belief in the now discredited "Trickle
Down" theory of economics.

After being elected governor (by a slim 51 to 49 margin), Kasich immediately
decided that he possessed a mandate to "privatize" all state agencies, and
scrap existing collective bargaining agreements with Ohio public employee
unions. Unions are definitely a roadblock to "the grand plan" because unions
ask many uncomfortable questions and aren't as guillable as Kasich would
want them to be.

To peddle "the grand plan," Kasich enlisted the help of Mark Kvaame of
Sequoyah Capital, a "wildcat" investment firm based in California's Silicon
Valley. Kvaame was to be paid $1 for his services, but his boss forgot
to consult the Ohio Constitution that requires cabinet members to be
residents of Ohio. Thus, Jim Leftwich of Dayton was appointed in his
stead (at a salary of about $300,000 a year) to be the titular head of
Jobs Ohio, the new title of the "privatized" Ohio Department of Development.
Not to worry, however. Kvaame will still be running the show!

Kvaame's previous experience includes his former position as CEO of CKS,
a software firm that merged with USWeb in 1998. Both firms went
bankrupt when the "bubble" popped in 1999. Joe Firmage, Kvaame's
co-CEO at USWeb was fired because he subscribed to the view that
the U.S. was re-engineering post-Roswell UFO technology at Wright-Patt
Air Force Base...oops!

Now, as Ohio's uncrowned "Jobs Czar,' Kvaame will make decisions affecting the
lives and livelihoods of 350,000 state public employees and countless unemployed
private sector workers, whose jobs were outsourced or downsized by the same
corporate entities now being courted by Kasich and Kvamme. In other words,
"the plan" includes most of the drawbacks of private enterprise -- downsizing of
jobs, patronage defined as "merit," kickbacks, payoffs, and preferential treatment
for "FOKs" (Friends of Kasich) -- but very few of its advantages, such as full-time,
bill-paying, child-rearing, living-wage paying jobs.

Also, it seems that much of the state's future financial security will now depend upon
gambling interests and the sale of booze (but there is no guarantee that the operators
of those concessions will be natives of Ohio). Ohio's unemployed are apparently expected
to remain happy as long as they stay soused and gamble a lot.

Massive cuts in education, social services, and infrastructure are being instituted, but the
"emperor" is providing $10 million worth of tax breaks for oil companies operating in Ohio --
companies that have reaped record profits during the last fiscal year. Apparently, "the
grand plan" will cost a lot more than a "grand." Meanwhile, Ohio's working folks will be
paying more at the gas pump to get to work!

Kasich's "business model" seems to resemble the Feudal System of Medieval England
more than anything devised by Bill Gates. Locally, "the grand plan" of "emperor" Kasich
will be implemented by "Duke Andy of the 93rd District." Area minimum-wage workers
(providing that Ohio's minimum-wage still exists when these guys are done) will
thereafter be regarded as corporate "serfs." "Noblese oblige!"




[Edited on 4/1/2011 by woodsdweller]

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 09:32 AM
quote:
Why is that wrong?? It is the folks that run the cities who have to decide what to cut when facing a real debt problem.


So cutting firefighters and police is a good idea? I can think of a bunch of other cuts like say, the fat from the top in either of those groups.

quote:
So, why should the unions be the ones who decides how many cops can be employed and how many are put on the streets by a city and tax payers who pay their salary????


I think the point being made is that the police on the ground know better about the equipment, manpower etc. that they require to safely do their jobs than the 'bean counters' and this has always been the case. There is no way this guy did 15 years on the street as an officer if he can sit here and say that the folks in suits behind the desks know whats best for them.

quote:
I still believe the governors should have kept the collective bargaining that was in place already and went from there. But concerning the merit thing- why should lousy workers get the same raise as the better workers???


LOL...you really have been sheltered all your life havent you? See, in the real world, 'merit raises' are typically a joke and often polluted with nepotism and favoritism. You can do an excellent job and be a top performer, but the guy next to you that calls in half the time and does substandard work gets a raise over you because of who he knows. I saw it in my own department. If your supervisor "liked you" then you got a raise regardless of how good of a worker you are and additionally, no supervisor wants to be known as the one who didnt give raises so they give them to those that dont deserve them just to stay on the good side of everyone. This happens all the time. Past all that, they will also most likely limit WHO gets raises meaning if you have two equally qualified people who have performed in the same way, only one will get a raise while the other gets shafted. Yep, these are the good times for upper management.

Collective bargaining is just that...bargaining. Give and take. Nothing is certain and these groups have the right (granted by the taxpayers in most cases through the voting process) to work with government to negotiate their working conditions.

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 10:55 AM
quote:
quote:
Supporters of the bargaining limits say decisions on how to equip police and fire departments should be in the hands of city officials, not union members.

"Shouldn't it be the employer who decides what's safe and what's not safe?" said state Rep. Joseph Uecker, who was a police officer in the Cincinnati area for 15 years. "Don't you think they are the ones who should decide whether they should have one or two or three people in a car? That's what we call management rights."



Why is that wrong?? It is the folks that run the cities who have to decide what to cut when facing a real debt problem. So, why should the unions be the ones who decides how many cops can be employed and how many are put on the streets by a city and tax payers who pay their salary????

quote:
The 350,000 public workers covered under the law can still negotiate wages and certain work conditions _ but not health care, sick time or pension benefits. The measure also does away with automatic pay raises and bases future wage increases on merit.



I still believe the governors should have kept the collective bargaining that was in place already and went from there. But concerning the merit thing- why should lousy workers get the same raise as the better workers???
Why should those who put their lives on the line every day, be shoved into harms way even more so because of fiscal mis-managment by scum-bag politicians. like I said before, this is not about getting the state out of the red, its about busting unions. and fletch, I hope when you need a cop or fire/paramedic after getting your a$$ kicked by a 20 year old you mouthed-off to at a bar,they take a coffee break detour while you bleed a little more.

Another saturday night [in cincy] and he aint got nobody...



[Edited on 4/1/2011 by pops42]

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 11:04 AM
quote:
quote:
Why is that wrong?? It is the folks that run the cities who have to decide what to cut when facing a real debt problem.


So cutting firefighters and police is a good idea? I can think of a bunch of other cuts like say, the fat from the top in either of those groups.

quote:
So, why should the unions be the ones who decides how many cops can be employed and how many are put on the streets by a city and tax payers who pay their salary????


I think the point being made is that the police on the ground know better about the equipment, manpower etc. that they require to safely do their jobs than the 'bean counters' and this has always been the case. There is no way this guy did 15 years on the street as an officer if he can sit here and say that the folks in suits behind the desks know whats best for them.

quote:
I still believe the governors should have kept the collective bargaining that was in place already and went from there. But concerning the merit thing- why should lousy workers get the same raise as the better workers???


LOL...you really have been sheltered all your life havent you? See, in the real world, 'merit raises' are typically a joke and often polluted with nepotism and favoritism. You can do an excellent job and be a top performer, but the guy next to you that calls in half the time and does substandard work gets a raise over you because of who he knows. I saw it in my own department. If your supervisor "liked you" then you got a raise regardless of how good of a worker you are and additionally, no supervisor wants to be known as the one who didnt give raises so they give them to those that dont deserve them just to stay on the good side of everyone. This happens all the time. Past all that, they will also most likely limit WHO gets raises meaning if you have two equally qualified people who have performed in the same way, only one will get a raise while the other gets shafted. Yep, these are the good times for upper management.

Collective bargaining is just that...bargaining. Give and take. Nothing is certain and these groups have the right (granted by the taxpayers in most cases through the voting process) to work with government to negotiate their working conditions.


Derek has always been a writer, I guess, so he has no personal experience of what it is like to work for - and be screwed - by an employer.

I think many people who demonize unions and the rights of the American Worker while championing Corporate America probably have never been f*cked by companies that they have given their blood, sweat and tears to, much less their soul....

I realize that this thread is about public sector unions, but there is a larger force at work here, and there has been for many decades now. It began in Corporate America and is now being implemented in government by the same players that enabled it on the corporate side.

And they won't stop until the American Worker - whether in the Public Sector or the Private Sector - has no rights left whatsoever.

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 02:02 PM
Excellent article at Politico about how the backlash against the GOP
has begun...

COPS, FIREFIGHTERS TURN ON GOP IN LABOR FIGHT, A POLITICAL SHIFT
THAT COULD HAVE SIGNIFICANT REPERCUSSIONS
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/52359.html


[Edited on 4/1/2011 by woodsdweller]

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 02:37 PM
People don't think teachers, firefighters, and cops are "evil." The question is why they are entitled to a six-figure pension and benefits - and where the money is going to come from.

I don't think the average middle-class private sector worker - who's asked to pay for it all while trying to fund their own retirement - is too sympathetic to their plight. Chances are they will be facing a backlash of their own if they whine too much more about their own benefits package.

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 02:42 PM
quote:
Excellent article at Politico


Politico??? I guess to each their own as to where they get their propaganda from?


Damn American are dumb. The ELITE own the politicians and the unions? They are playing you all for fools. They are pushing on one side and pulling on the other.

I am not sure which is worse, the greed that some of these corporations have, or the envy of the people that want what others have? Damn emotions are a bitch. The ELITES are stoking the flames of violence and would like nothing more than to crash the system.

One way or another, a new world order is coming your way.

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 02:49 PM


quote:
One way or another, a new world order is coming your way.




[Edited on 4/1/2011 by woodsdweller]

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 02:50 PM
quote:
quote:
Excellent article at Politico


Politico??? I guess to each their own as to where they get their propaganda from?


Damn American are dumb. The ELITE own the politicians and the unions? They are playing you all for fools. They are pushing on one side and pulling on the other.

I am not sure which is worse, the greed that some of these corporations have, or the envy of the people that want what others have? Damn emotions are a bitch. The ELITES are stoking the flames of violence and would like nothing more than to crash the system.

One way or another, a new world order is coming your way.


You know, JPB, the really scary thing is that, NWO aside, you're starting to make sense...

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:03 PM
quote:

CLEVELAND (Associated Press) --
Unlike Wisconsin's high-profile effort to limit collective bargaining rights for public workers, Ohio's new law includes police officers and firefighters _ who say it threatens the safety of them and the people they protect.

Opponents have vowed to put the issue on the November ballot, giving voters a chance to strike down the law. The firefighters' union in Cleveland plans to hit the streets and help gather signatures.

Patrolman Michael Cox, a 15-year veteran of Cleveland's police force, said Ohio overlooked the inherent risks of police and firefighting work when lawmakers included them in the bill, which passed the Legislature on Wednesday and was signed into law by Republican Gov. John Kasich on Thursday.

"We don't run from the house fire; we don't run from the gunshot," Cox said. "We're the guys that got to say, 'OK, we're going to go fix this problem real fast.'"

Under the Ohio plan, police and firefighters won't be able to bargain with cities over the number of people required to be on duty. That means they can't negotiate the number of staff in fire trucks or police cars, for instance.

Supporters of the bargaining limits say decisions on how to equip police and fire departments should be in the hands of city officials, not union members.

"Shouldn't it be the employer who decides what's safe and what's not safe?" said state Rep. Joseph Uecker, who was a police officer in the Cincinnati area for 15 years. "Don't you think they are the ones who should decide whether they should have one or two or three people in a car? That's what we call management rights."

Cleveland police Officer Anthony Sauto is recovering after a bullet that pierced his leg a few months ago during a night shift on the west side of town. The wound will heal, but he worries that patrolling the streets will be even more dangerous when he returns to work.

"That's my No. 1 concern," Sauto said. "We put our lives on the line."

The 350,000 public workers covered under the law can still negotiate wages and certain work conditions _ but not health care, sick time or pension benefits. The measure also does away with automatic pay raises and bases future wage increases on merit.

Wisconsin's measure covers 175,000 workers but exempts police and firefighters.

Kasich has said his $55.5 billion, two-year state budget counts on unspecified savings from lifting union protections to fill an $8 billion hole. He defended the new law Thursday night.

"This bill, Senate Bill 5, does not cut anybody's salary. This bill, Senate Bill 5, does not take away anybody's pension. This bill, Senate Bill 5, does not destroy anybody's health care," Kasich said. "And anybody who's been out there saying that is just factually wrong."

In northeast Ohio, fear that a loss of bargaining will result in layoffs and further cutbacks is rippling through the law enforcement community.

One of the biggest worries is one-man patrol cars, said Steve Loomis, president of the city's local police union. Under the current contract, Cleveland police officers are required to have at least two officers in a patrol car when driving through certain neighborhoods, Loomis said.

After Kasich's signature on the bill, Democrats have 90 days to gather more than 230,000 valid signatures to get it on the fall ballot. Loomis believes that if Senate Bill 5 goes unchallenged, the two-man rule will be the first thing to go.

"They're going to give up our safety for the illusion that there's more police on the street," Loomis said. "That's horrifying. Guys get killed."

And equipment that police officers say is vital but that the city says is too expensive _ like computers in patrol cars, a rarity in Cleveland _ will be harder to get without the complete bargaining process, Loomis said.

State lawmakers did make last-minute changes to the measure in the House that allow police and fire officials to bargain for vests, shields and other safety gear.

Mike Norman, secretary for Cleveland's local firefighters union, said that's a cold comfort compared with what he called an "all-out assault" on the union.

"Changes to the game supersede the topics that we're allowed to discuss," he said. "This isn't something that needed to be tweaked a little bit."

As Cleveland's population has declined in the past decade, so have its ranks of police officers. Two rounds of layoffs have left the police force more than 300 officers smaller since 2004.

The street crimes unit, which used to investigate prostitution and gambling, is no more. The auto theft unit was also disbanded. And a city that stretches 22 miles along Lake Erie no longer has a single police boat to patrol its own waters; that job is now left to the Coast Guard, Loomis said.

The fire department has lost more than 200 members and closed five companies since 2004. City Public Safety Director Martin Flask said all furloughed police and fire employees have been recalled to duty, but he acknowledged that staffing levels have declined in recent years.

"What this bill is going to do," Loomis said, "is allow bean counters and people who have never walked a step in our shoes, sitting behind a mahogany desk, to make decisions on our safety."

The office of Mayor Frank Jackson did not respond to requests for comment on the police and firefighters' complaints.

Like other public employees, law enforcement officials are also worried about things like rising health care costs. Youngstown firefighter Dave Cook, 43, thinks it will be tough to attract qualified candidates to the dangerous profession if health care costs go through the roof.

"Who's going to come into a police or fireman job when the starting pay is $24,000 a year?" he said. "What type of recruits are you going to get?"

On his way to work Thursday morning, Cleveland police Officer Henry Steel said most officers would support the effort to repeal the bill. But at work, he said, it will be business as usual.

"We're all professionals," he said. "We're going to do our job, period. We're going to do our job. We may not be too happy about it."







Ok, letís hear what these wonderful unions have proposed to help fund these budgets instead of making concessions on their part? I'm all ears.......and all I hear is crickets.

Oh and out of curiosity, I've asked this several times before, exactly how many jobs has these unions created?


Oh and one last thing, they havenít lost any of their benefits or pensions nor have they lost their bargaining right regarding salaries, so what are the panties in a wad about? I mean other than the fear of the boogie man?

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:15 PM
I like the attempted spin of how these "unions are the friend of the middle class." Baloney. Just llike that "friend" who has his hand in your back pocket.

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:22 PM
The problems unions have had is they have never figured out how to get the most from the golden goose without killing the goose. Happened in the U.S auto industry and it's happening is government.

 

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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:28 PM
This whole thing is about perception, first and foremost, IMO. Certainly a lot of tough decisions are going to have to be made, but let's remember one thing. In the post 9/11 era, firefighters and policemen have been raised to a level of respect that they deserved for a very long time. The perception is that those people are being attacked and/or demonized. The other perception is about unions, are they still needed and to they hurt or help. If it wasn't for unions, workers wouldn't have the basic rights they all have today whether they are union or not. There have been those that have been trying to turn back the clock on unions since the very day they were formed.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:28 PM
quote:
The problems unions have had is they have never figured out how to get the most from the golden goose without killing the goose. Happened in the U.S auto industry and it's happening is government.


Don't forget the steel and textile industries...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:30 PM
quote:
quote:
The problems unions have had is they have never figured out how to get the most from the golden goose without killing the goose. Happened in the U.S auto industry and it's happening is government.


Don't forget the steel and textile industries...


This all may be true, but cops and firefighters are different, IMO.

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:34 PM
Three legitimate questions to ask...

1. Will Republican Governor John Kasich agree to a substantial paycut and
reduction of his own pension? (since he's having a lot of fun messing
with public employees while giving 10 million dollars in tax breaks
to Oil companies operating in Ohio).

2. Will the above-mentioned Oil companies operating in Ohio belly up
to the bar and say, "Yes, the public employees are being asked to
sacrifice in the name of budget balancing. So should we." ?

3. Since law-abiding, hard working firefighters, police and public employees
pay taxes, should GE, who reportedly paid no taxes at all and made 5.1
billion in profits, also pay their fair share of taxes?

The Kasich move is nothing more than classic union busting, and a blatant
attempt to crush one of the Dem's chief fundraisers.

[Edited on 4/1/2011 by woodsdweller]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:36 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
The problems unions have had is they have never figured out how to get the most from the golden goose without killing the goose. Happened in the U.S auto industry and it's happening is government.


Don't forget the steel and textile industries...


This all may be true, but cops and firefighters are different, IMO.


I once said in a thread that trades (electricians, plumbers, boilermakers) were different. I was told that I couldn't have it both ways. That I had to either be pro-union or anti-union. Given that choice, and my perception of just what unions have done for this country since 1959, we're better off without.

And you still have EEOC, OSHA and all the other assorted acronyms to protect those rights without having to deal with a bunch of extortionists. The extortionists just are government agencies.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:36 PM
In this neck of the woods, police presence is overbearing to the point of being nerve-wracking....And it takes four of them to write somebody a speeding ticket. If a car gets stuck in a ditch it won't be uncommon to see four squad cars, two wreckers, an ambulance or two and at least one firetruck. Overkill. Truth is, I think they're bored out of their minds most of the time.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:38 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
The problems unions have had is they have never figured out how to get the most from the golden goose without killing the goose. Happened in the U.S auto industry and it's happening is government.


Don't forget the steel and textile industries...


This all may be true, but cops and firefighters are different, IMO.


What exactly are the cops or firemen losing? The actual city officials will be calling the shots and determining where their money is best spent rather than the unions? I would think that the city officials would have more of a vested interest than that of the union.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 4/1/2011 at 03:42 PM
quote:
I like the attempted spin of how these "unions are the friend of the middle class." Baloney. Just llike that "friend" who has his hand in your back pocket.


- 40 hour work week? Thank the unions.
- Paid Vacation? Thank the unions.
- Abolition of child labor laws? Thanks the unions.
- Abolition of discrimination (age, race, sex) in the workplace? Thank the unions.
- Living wage? Thank the unions.
- Employer paid health insurance? Thank the unions.

Just a few concessions unions have won that have benefited ALL workers, union or non-union. If you are a worker, unions have benefited you, whether you pay dues or not.

If you're not in that category, i.e. a member of management or an executive, it's no wonder you view labor as The Enemy. You're not part of the Working Class - no matter how much you may try to leverage that common man BS.

 

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"Love Like You've Never Been Hurt"-Satchel Paige

 
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