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Author: Subject: Jesus did not die on cross, says scholar

Zen Peach





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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 12:51 AM

Jesus did not die on cross, says scholar

Published: 11:47AM BST 23 Jun 2010

Jesus may not have died nailed to the cross because there is no evidence that the Romans crucified prisoners two thousand years ago, a scholar has claimed.

The legend of his execution is based on the traditions of the Christian church and artistic illustrations rather than antique texts, according to theologian Gunnar Samuelsson.

He claims the Bible has been misinterpreted as there are no explicit references the use of nails or to crucifixion - only that Jesus bore a "staurus" towards Calvary which is not necessarily a cross but can also mean a "pole".

Mr Samuelsson, who has written a 400-page thesis after studying the original texts, said: "The problem is descriptions of crucifixions are remarkably absent in the antique literature.

"The sources where you would expect to find support for the established understanding of the event really don't say anything."

The ancient Greek, Latin and Hebrew literature from Homer to the first century AD describe an arsenal of suspension punishments but none mention "crosses" or "crucifixion."

Mr Samuelsson, of Gothenburg University, said: "Consequently, the contemporary understanding of crucifixion as a punishment is severely challenged.

"And what's even more challenging is the same can be concluded about the accounts of the crucifixion of Jesus. The New Testament doesn't say as much as we'd like to believe."

Any evidence that Jesus was left to die after being nailed to a cross is strikingly sparse - both in the ancient pre-Christian and extra-Biblical literature as well as The Bible.

Mr Samuelsson, a committed Christian himself, admitted his claims are so close to the heart of his faith that it is easy to react emotionally instead of logically.

Mr Samuelsson said the actual execution texts do not describe how Christ was attached to the execution device.

He said: "This is the heart of the problem. The text of the passion narratives is not that exact and information loaded, as we Christians sometimes want it to be."

Mr Samuelsson said: "If you are looking for texts that depict the act of nailing persons to a cross you will not find any beside the Gospels."

A lot of contemporary literature all use the same vague terminology - including the Latin accounts.

Nor does the Latin word crux automatically refer to a cross while patibulum refer to the cross-beam. Both words are used in a wider sense that that.

Mr Samuelsson said: "That a man named Jesus existed in that part of the world and in that time is well-documented. He left a rather good foot-print in the literature of the time.

"I do believe that the mentioned man is the son of God. My suggestion is not that Christians should reject or doubt the biblical text.

"My suggestion is that we should read the text as it is, not as we think it is. We should read on the lines, not between the lines. The text of the Bible is sufficient. We do not need to add anything."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7849852/Jesus-did-not-d ie-on-cross-says-scholar.html

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 12:58 AM
I never thought he actually died on the cross any way. And if he didn't, that doesn't mean his message wasn't valid. People pay too much attention to the life of Jesus rather than the words in my opinion.

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 06:18 AM
His body was released to Joseph or Arimathea who happened to be a medical doctor. There has been some thought that the bitter wine/vinegar he was given while he was on the cross had anesthetics/analgesics in it to make him sleep to the extent that his breathing was so shallow, the Romans thought he was dead and removed him from the cross; but he was not actually dead at that time. Joseph took him to the tomb he had and took care of him, ministering to him medicinally. When he was awake he was able to leave the tomb. He then started his journey which took him many more places, including the land we now call Afghanistan, but he didn't stop there, he went to India inspiring those people also.

There are other accounts which say he did die, at the crucifixion but other things happened to his disciples (70 of them including Joseph).

The Gospel of Nicodemus, a text appended to the Acts of Pilate, provides additional, though even more mythologized, details. After Joseph asked for the body of Christ from Pilate, and prepared the body with Nicodemus' help, Christ's body was delivered to a new tomb that Joseph had built for himself. In the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Jewish elders express anger at Joseph for burying the body of Christ in the following exchange:

And likewise Joseph also stepped out and said to them: Why are you angry against me because I begged the body of Jesus? Behold, I have put him in my new tomb, wrapping in clean linen; and I have rolled a stone to the door of the tomb. And you have acted not well against the just man, because you have not repented of crucifying him, but also have pierced him with a spear.

—Gospel of Nicodemus. Translated by Alexander Walker.
The Jewish elders then captured Joseph, and imprisoned him, and placed a seal on the door to his cell after first posting a guard. Joseph warned the elders:

The Son of God whom you hanged upon the cross, is able to deliver me out of your hands. All your wickedness will return upon you.

Once the elders returned to the cell, the seal was still in place, but Joseph was gone. The elders later discover that Joseph had returned to Arimathea. Having a change in heart, the elders desired to have a more civil conversation with Joseph about his actions and sent a letter of apology to him by means of seven of his friends. Joseph travelled back from Arimathea to Jerusalem to meet with the elders, where they questioned by them about his escape. He told them this story;


On the day of the Preparation, about the tenth hour, you shut me in, and I remained there the whole Sabbath in full. And when midnight came, as I was standing and praying, the house where you shut me in was hung up by the four corners, and there was a flashing of light in mine eyes. And I fell to the ground trembling. Then some one lifted me up from the place where I had fallen, and poured over me an abundance of water from the head even to the feet, and put round my nostrils the odour of a wonderful ointment, and rubbed my face with the water itself, as if washing me, and kissed me, and said to me, Joseph, fear not; but open thine eyes, and see who it is that speaks to thee. And looking, I saw Jesus; and being terrified, I thought it was a phantom. And with prayer and the commandments I spoke to him, and he spoke with me. And I said to him: Art thou Rabbi Elias? And he said to me: I am not Elias. And I said: Who art thou, my Lord? And he said to me: I am Jesus, whose body thou didst beg from Pilate, and wrap in clean linen; and thou didst lay a napkin on my face, and didst lay me in thy new tomb, and roll a stone to the door of the tomb. Then I said to him that was speaking to me: Show me, Lord, where I laid thee. And he led me, and showed me the place where I laid him, and the linen which I had put on him, and the napkin which I had wrapped upon his face; and I knew that it was Jesus. And he took hold of me with his hand, and put me in the midst of my house though the gates were shut, and put me in my bed, and said to me: Peace to thee! And he kissed me, and said to me: For forty days go not out of thy house; for, lo, I go to my brethren into Galilee.

—Gospel of Nicodemus. Translated by Alexander Walker
According to the Gospel of Nicodemus, Joseph testified to the Jewish elders, and specifically to chief priests Caiaphas and Annas that Jesus had risen from the dead and ascended to heaven and he indicated that others were raised from the dead at the resurrection of Christ (repeating Matt 27:52-53). He specifically identified the two sons of the high-priest Simeon (again in Luke 2:25-35). The elders Annas, Caiaphas, Nicodemus, and Joseph himself, along with Gamaliel under whom Paul of Tarsus studied, travelled to Arimathea to interview Simeon's sons Charinus and Lenthius.

Legends about the arrival of Christianity in Britain abounded during the Middle Ages. Early writers do not connect Joseph to this activity, however. Tertullian (AD 155-222) wrote in Adversus Judaeos that Britain had already received and accepted the Gospel in his lifetime, writing of:[5]

… all the limits of the Spains, and the diverse nations of the Gauls, and the haunts of the Britons – inaccessible to the Romans, but subjugated to Christ.
Tertullian does not say how the Gospel came to Britain before AD 222. However, Eusebius, (AD 260-340) Bishop of Caesarea and one of the earliest and most comprehensive of church historians, wrote of Christ's disciples in Demonstratio Evangelica, saying that "some have crossed the Ocean and reached the Isles of Britain."[6] Saint Hilary of Poitiers (AD 300-376) also wrote that the Apostles had built churches and that the Gospel had passed into Britain.[7]

Hippolytus (AD 170-236), considered to have been one of the most learned Christian historians, puts names to the seventy disciples whom Jesus sent forth in Luke 10, includes Aristobulus of Romans 16:10 with Joseph, and states that he ended up becoming a pastor in Britain.[8]

In none of these earliest references to Christianity’s arrival in Britain is Joseph of Arimathea mentioned. The first connection of Joseph of Arimathea with Britain is found in the 9th century Life of Mary Magdalene by Rabanus Maurus (AD 766-856), Archbishop of Mainz. Rabanus states that Joseph of Arimathea was sent to Britain, and he goes on to detail who travelled with him as far as France, claiming that he was accompanied by "the two Bethany sisters, Mary and Martha, Lazarus (who was raised from the dead), St. Eutropius, St. Salome, St. Cleon, St. Saturnius, St. Mary Magdalen, Marcella (the maid of the Bethany sisters), St. Maxium or Maximin, St. Martial, and St. Trophimus or Restitutus."[9] An authentic copy of the Maurus text is housed in the Bodleian Library of Oxford University.[10] Rabanus Maurus describes their voyage to Britain:

Leaving the shores of Asia and favoured by an east wind, they went round about, down the Tyrrhenian Sea, between Europe and Africa, leaving the city of Rome and all the land to the right. Then happily turning their course to the right, they came near to the city of Marseilles, in the Viennoise province of the Gauls, where the river Rhône is received by the sea. There, having called upon God, the great King of all the world, they parted; each company going to the province where the Holy Spirit directed them; presently preaching everywhere…


The route he describes follows that of a supposed Phoenician trade route to Britain, as described by Diodorus Siculus.

William of Malmesbury mentions Joseph's going to Britain in one passage of his Chronicle of the English Kings. He says Philip the Apostle sent twelve Christians to Britain, one of whom was his dearest friend, Joseph of Arimathea. William does not mention Joseph by name again, but he mentions the twelve evangelists generally. He claims that Glastonbury Abbey was founded by them; Glastonbury would be associated specifically with Joseph in later literature. Cardinal Caesar Baronius[11] the Vatican Librarian and historian (d. 1609), recorded this voyage by Joseph of Arimathea, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene, Martha, Marcella and others in his Annales Ecclesiatici, volume 1, section 35.

A native of Arimathea, Joseph of Arimathea was apparently a man of wealth, and probably a member of the Sanhedrin, which is the way bouleut&#275;s, literally "counsellor", in Matthew 27:57 and Luke 23:50 is most often interpreted. According to Mark 15:43, Joseph was an "honourable counsellor, who waited (or "was searching") for the kingdom of God". In John 19:38 he was secretly a disciple of Jesus: as soon as he heard the news of Jesus' death, he "went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus." R.J. Miller[1] notes this act as "unexpected… Is Joseph in effect bringing Jesus into his family?"

Pilate, reassured by a centurion that the death had taken place allowed Joseph's request. Joseph immediately purchased fine linen (Mark 15:46) and proceeded to Golgotha to take the body of Jesus down from the cross. There, assisted by Nicodemus, Joseph took the body and wrapped it in the fine linen and applied myrrh and aloes (these are substances which Nicodemus had brought, according to John 19:39). Jesus's body then was conveyed to the place that had been prepared for Joseph's own body, a man-made cave hewn from rock in the garden of his house nearby.

Christians interpret Joseph's role as fulfilling Isaiah's prediction that the grave of the "Suffering Servant" would be with a rich man (Isaiah 53:9), assuming that Isaiah meant Messiah. The sceptical tradition, which reads the various fulfilments of prophecies in the life of Jesus as inventions designed for that purpose, reads Joseph of Arimathea as a story created to fulfil this prophecy in Isaiah, although the gospel accounts do not claim a prophesied fulfilment at that point. The prophecy in Isaiah chapter 53, is known as the "Man of Sorrows" passage:

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

The Greek Septuagint text:

And I will give the wicked for his burial, and the rich for his death; for he practised no iniquity, nor craft with his mouth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin

THe Sanhedrin hasd 73 Judges. The Quran says there would be 73 false sects when Jesus returns again for Judgement Day. This is how it started. Judges who should have practiced Abrahamaic law, but did not. The Romans dissolved the entire thing thinking that they knew better.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 06:19 AM
John 19:31 specifically says that the day after Jesus’ crucifixion was “a special Sabbath,” that is, not the weekly Jewish Sabbath, which fell on what we call Saturday. Putting together Scripture with the calendars available today, we see that in the year Jesus died, the Passover was on a Thursday. Jesus died at 3 p.m. on Wednesday and rose from the dead on Saturday between 3 p.m. and sunset. This had to be because according to the Jewish reckoning of time, the next day, the fourth day, started at sunset, and Scripture said he would rise “the third day.” Thus, when the women returned to the tomb before sunrise on Sunday, he was not there —“He is risen!” (Note that the angel did not say to them, “You just missed him!”).

A study of all the verses related to this subject shows that the women saw that Joseph did not embalm Jesus (on Wednesday), so they went home to prepare the proper spices to do so, which they could not do on Thursday (the High Sabbath) or Saturday (the weekly Sabbath). They believed that Jesus should have a proper burial, but the Sanhedrin had made sure that the tomb was sealed and guarded for three days (Matt. 27:63-66). That meant that the earliest they could get into the tomb was Sunday morning. As would be expected given their close relationships with Jesus, they were there as early as possible.

Late Wednesday afternoon (the day of preparation for the Passover), when Joseph and the women had left the tomb, Nicodemus entered the picture, and what he did is recorded only in the gospel of John. As with the subject of the four others crucified with Jesus (Five Crucified), the principle of narrative development is crucial to understanding how to put together the different Gospels’ accounts of Jesus’ burial and get the whole picture of what actually happened.

In John 19:38 and 39, the NIV blurs the fact that Nicodemus (the same man in John 3 and 7) came to the grave later—after Joseph had left. As a man of means, he would have had plenty of help to do what verse 40 says “they” did—“wound the body in linen clothes with spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury” (KJV). The Greek word for “clothes” is othonion, which means “grave wrappings or bandages.” Therefore, “they” could not be Joseph and Nicodemus, because we already know that Joseph simply wrapped the body in a sheet (sindon). It is also noteworthy that the women saw Joseph but not Nicodemus. The women watched Joseph, saw that he had not given Jesus a “proper burial” and went off to buy the spices to do it themselves. Then, after Joseph and the women had gone, Nicodemus and his helpers came (you would want helpers if you were carrying 75 pounds of spices and a bunch of cloth) and they gave Jesus a more formal burial, but one that did not anticipate his resurrection.

What Nicodemus did is why, when Peter and another disciple ran to the tomb, they saw the othonion (John 20:5), the mummy-like linen grave wrappings that had been around Jesus but were then empty. Nicodemus also loved Jesus very much, and in order to honor him with a proper burial he was willing to make himself unclean for the Passover by touching Jesus’ dead body, but he apparently did not believe Jesus would rise from the dead, as evidenced by his embalming his body. Although Joseph did not anoint Jesus’ body according to custom, it was he who most honored him by believing his words that he would rise from the dead.

Let us summarize the sequence of events. On Wednesday afternoon, as soon as Jesus was dead, Joseph went quickly to Pilate, persuaded him to give him the body, took it to the nearby tomb he had had cut in a rock, wrapped it in a sheet and rolled the stone in front of the opening. The women, who dearly loved Jesus, saw what he did and went home to prepare the spices for a proper burial. Shortly after they left, Nicodemus came and prepared the body according to the Jewish burial custom. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday passed, and early Sunday the women returned to the tomb, only to find the empty tomb—Jesus had risen from the dead.

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article& sid=369

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 07:11 AM
I thought he was struck by lightning and burned down in Cincinnati.

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 08:20 AM
the last of the "eye witnesses" died about 2000 years ago. well never know what actually transpired.

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 11:38 AM
quote:
I thought he was struck by lightning and burned down in Cincinnati.


OMG that's funny!!!!

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 12:06 PM
quote:
quote:
I thought he was struck by lightning and burned down in Cincinnati.


OMG that's funny!!!!


Me too!

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 12:09 PM
I'm sure there is a scholar out there that has written a paper on the theory that Christ fell out of a boat and drowned while out fishing on the sea of Galilee..........

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 07:35 PM
That guy is a lunatic. It is well known the Romans crucified convicted felons. There is a fascinating book that suggests that Jesus planned the whole thing called "The Passover Plot"

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 09:39 PM
quote:
I thought he was struck by lightning and burned down in Cincinnati.


LOL!

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 10:11 PM
quote:
quote:
I thought he was struck by lightning and burned down in Cincinnati.


LOL!


I heard he was pitching for the Reds.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 11:13 PM
quote:
quote:
I thought he was struck by lightning and burned down in Cincinnati.


OMG that's funny!!!!


You won't think so on Judgement Day when the scribes come out with the books and you are questioned about this.

 

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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 11:16 PM
There's no such thing as Judgment Day, gina. The people who wrote down the Hebrew mythology made that up. There will be no scribes, no books, no questions. We judge each other enough here. God will only love you, He will never judge you.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/26/2010 at 11:24 PM
My thoughts exactly.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 12:06 AM
You state that as fact. What is the origin of these 'facts?' What books do you get this information from? Why aren't those thoughts a myth as well? Where is your proof?

[Edited on 6/27/2010 by DerekFromCincinnati]

 

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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 12:13 AM
Were you talking about anything specific in the thread or did you just drop by to say something totally unrelated to the previous post?

 

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Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 08:45 AM
quote:
There's no such thing as Judgment Day, gina. The people who wrote down the Hebrew mythology made that up. There will be no scribes, no books, no questions. We judge each other enough here. God will only love you, He will never judge you.


It's not just the Hebrews, the Muslims believe it also.

 

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"Mankind is a single nation" "Allah did not make you a single people so he could try you in what he gave you, to him you will all return, he will inform you where you differed". Quran Chapter 2 Sura 213

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 08:46 AM
quote:
quote:
There's no such thing as Judgment Day, gina. The people who wrote down the Hebrew mythology made that up. There will be no scribes, no books, no questions. We judge each other enough here. God will only love you, He will never judge you.


You present that as fact. It is only opinion.


I'll try not to enjoy it when I see you there at Temple Mount and watch your face when you realize you were incorrect.

 

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"Mankind is a single nation" "Allah did not make you a single people so he could try you in what he gave you, to him you will all return, he will inform you where you differed". Quran Chapter 2 Sura 213

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 12:21 PM
As I've said before.....there will be some very surprised people when the time comes to make their transition....it remains to be see who they'll be.

 

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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 01:10 PM
Don't worry Charlie, someone will make sure you get there.

 

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"Mankind is a single nation" "Allah did not make you a single people so he could try you in what he gave you, to him you will all return, he will inform you where you differed". Quran Chapter 2 Sura 213

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 01:22 PM
quote:
quote:
There's no such thing as Judgment Day, gina. The people who wrote down the Hebrew mythology made that up. There will be no scribes, no books, no questions. We judge each other enough here. God will only love you, He will never judge you.



quote:
You state that as fact. What is the origin of these 'facts?' What books do you get this information from? Why aren't those thoughts a myth as well? Where is your proof?



Were you talking about anything specific in the thread or did you just drop by to say something totally unrelated to the previous post?





Actually, Ann, that was directed at NC-CSB's statements of 'facts' of the universe.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 01:24 PM
Ah, thank you. Makes sense now.

 

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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 03:36 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
There's no such thing as Judgment Day, gina. The people who wrote down the Hebrew mythology made that up. There will be no scribes, no books, no questions. We judge each other enough here. God will only love you, He will never judge you.


You present that as fact. It is only opinion.


I'll try not to enjoy it when I see you there at Temple Mount and watch your face when you realize you were incorrect.

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Isn't this another couple of sins ? Who are you to judge what God finds funny since we are allegedly in his image.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2010 at 10:33 PM
"Well, I've tried to stay on the straight and narrow,
But I walk the crooked path.
I've felt worthy of forgiveness,
And deserving heaven's wrath.
Right on the money, and off by mile.
Ahead of my time, and way out of style.
But I'm hanging tough.
I ain't had enough,
I ain't giving up on life or love."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMoanFQmFA8

 

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