Don't click or your IP will be banned


Hittin' The Web with the Allman Brothers Band Forum
You are not logged in

< Last Thread   Next Thread >Ascending sortDescending sorting  
Author: Subject: Interesting Supreme Court Case

Zen Peach





Posts: 27533
(27822 all sites)
Registered: 2/18/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 11:47 AM

It will be interesting to see how the court resolves this professed first amendment case given the separation of Church and State part of the constitution. Personally, if one asks for money from the state, they adhere to the state laws and it has nothing to do with the first amendment. If they don't like the rules, don't ask for 'consideration.'


http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/christian-legal-society-at-university -of-californias-hastings-college-of-the-law-takes-fight-to-high-court/19438 384




 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 
Replies:

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 18593
(18594 all sites)
Registered: 11/20/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 12:27 PM
quote:
Colby says the CLS doesn't want to end up with atheists or people of other religions leading its Bible study.
I'm surprised they've had problems with athiests clamoring to lead their Bible study group.

[Edited on 4/18/2010 by lolasdeb]

 

____________________
"Come on down to the Mermaid Cafe and I will buy you a bottle of wine, and we'll laugh and toast to nothing and smash our empty glasses down..."

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 27533
(27822 all sites)
Registered: 2/18/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 12:42 PM
Excellent point.

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!




 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 25201
(25201 all sites)
Registered: 9/7/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 03:18 PM
the core issue is limiting membership.

They are welcome to form an all christian group and choose membership requirements. But the
University is not required to give them standing if they don't abide with the University's open membership policy.
Seems straight forward to me.

would the college give standing to a group that uses race as a requirement?

An official chapter of the Hastings College KKK ? I think not.

some college kids tip cows. others file frivolous law suits.

This group discriminates based on religious belief.

discrimination is not a first amendment right.



[Edited on 4/18/2010 by spacemonkey]

 

____________________
Keep on Smiling


 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 05:31 PM
It's a complicated question and I don't know the answer having not studied first amendment jurisprudence in nearly 20 years. Although it seems straightforward, the first amendment has rarely been interpreted that way. For example, long ago in the Lemon test, the Court ruled that things such as Christmas trees in public space were o.k. but nativity scenes were not. There is also a 14th amendment issue. The questions that need to be resolved are:

1. What is a government action. Is the mere existence of a group limited to a certain class membership at a public university "government action"? Does it make a difference whether university space is used or if university funds are used?

2. Assuming it is, is I don't think there is anything wrong with a governmental entity having groups devoted to the interests of a certain class. The question is whether there is a compelling interest in allowing a Christian students group to limit membership to Christian students or a Black students group to limit its membership to Black students etc.

I honestly don't know the answers to these questions because I have not kept up with the caselaw of the past twenty years.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 05:32 PM
quote:
the core issue is limiting membership.

They are welcome to form an all christian group and choose membership requirements. But the
University is not required to give them standing if they don't abide with the University's open membership policy.
Seems straight forward to me.

would the college give standing to a group that uses race as a requirement?

An official chapter of the Hastings College KKK ? I think not.

some college kids tip cows. others file frivolous law suits.

This group discriminates based on religious belief.

discrimination is not a first amendment right.



[Edited on 4/18/2010 by spacemonkey]


I think you are right to create a distinction between a situation where the University chooses to allow it and someone objects and the university refuses to allow it and the group objects. They are distinct.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 27533
(27822 all sites)
Registered: 2/18/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 05:48 PM
As near as I can figure out, if I start a private organization with private funds without accepting any funding from the federal government then a group can for with any criteria they want. I'm good with that. But if I start an organization with funding from the federal government, a group with restrictions that are contrary to anti-discrimination laws can't be allowed. I'm good with that too. People can do what they want as long as it doesn't break any laws and my tax dollars don't have to pay for it.

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!




 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 05:52 PM
quote:
As near as I can figure out, if I start a private organization with private funds without accepting any funding from the federal government then a group can for with any criteria they want. I'm good with that. But if I start an organization with funding from the federal government, a group with restrictions that are contrary to anti-discrimination laws can't be allowed. I'm good with that too. People can do what they want as long as it doesn't break any laws and my tax dollars don't have to pay for it.


A private group cannot discriminate against suspect classes unless they can show a valid compelling reason. But groups based on religion, sex, ethnicity etc. have been held to be valid. On the other hand, a local chamber of commerce cannot exclude black businesses even if they don't take a dime of government money.

At the same time as I said in the post above, the involvement of the government as well as what is and is not regarded as "discrimination" is complicated and while I do not off the top of my head know the answer I know it is not a simple matter of "the government funds it so no Christian groups are allowed." If it were, there would be no Supreme Court case.

And btw, I am not talking about what we think should be the law but what the law actually is. 2 different things.

[Edited on 4/18/2010 by dougrhon]

 

____________________

 

World Class Peach



Karma:
Posts: 5125
(5124 all sites)
Registered: 4/18/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 06:03 PM
quote:
It's a complicated question and I don't know the answer having not studied first amendment jurisprudence in nearly 20 years.


Actually it comes down to this.
If you wish to be accredited with the university, you cannot deny membership of anyone, for any reason, to your organization. Accreditation means use of campus facilities, meeting spaces, and use of some student activity fees.

Here's where this will lead. Traditionally black sororities and fraternities must admit white students. BETA cannot discriminate some one just because they have a 45 IQ, if they wish to use university facilities for meetings. Sororities must admit male members, and fraternities female members. Muslim groups would have to admit Christian and Jewish students.

The list could go on for several pages, but admit it, most college groups discriminate in at least one form, and a lot of them in many forms. Groups discriminate as far as age, sex, wealth, religion, what schools you went to, what part of the country you came from, what country you came from, political leanings, even down to weather you are left or right handed.

I think this lawsuit is going to open up a rather smelly can that should have stayed buried, because it has the possibility of causing a great deal of harm.

 

____________________
All photos posted of family, friends, and places, including those of historic ABB value, by this poster are copyrighted by the poster, or posted by permission of the copywriter.
None of those photos may be reproduced for commercial gain.

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 06:54 PM
quote:
quote:
It's a complicated question and I don't know the answer having not studied first amendment jurisprudence in nearly 20 years.


Actually it comes down to this.
If you wish to be accredited with the university, you cannot deny membership of anyone, for any reason, to your organization. Accreditation means use of campus facilities, meeting spaces, and use of some student activity fees.

Here's where this will lead. Traditionally black sororities and fraternities must admit white students. BETA cannot discriminate some one just because they have a 45 IQ, if they wish to use university facilities for meetings. Sororities must admit male members, and fraternities female members. Muslim groups would have to admit Christian and Jewish students.

The list could go on for several pages, but admit it, most college groups discriminate in at least one form, and a lot of them in many forms. Groups discriminate as far as age, sex, wealth, religion, what schools you went to, what part of the country you came from, what country you came from, political leanings, even down to weather you are left or right handed.

I think this lawsuit is going to open up a rather smelly can that should have stayed buried, because it has the possibility of causing a great deal of harm.


It would if they rule against the group. More likely they will find a way to allow this kind of benign discrimination which as you say necessarily exists throughout society.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 27533
(27822 all sites)
Registered: 2/18/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/18/2010 at 10:10 PM
So, if they rule for the group, how would that reconcile with federal guidelines of non-discrimination and the funding of such groups?

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!




 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/19/2010 at 11:25 AM
quote:
So, if they rule for the group, how would that reconcile with federal guidelines of non-discrimination and the funding of such groups?


If they rule this way they will find that a group whose main purpose is to provide a social/recreational/organizational etc. outlet for people of a specific class is not discriminatory in the sense intended by the statutes. They will distinguish groups that only allow a single class such as this one from groups that exclude one or more groups such as a chamber of commerce organization that excludes black owned businesses. (This would be illegal even if private)

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 27533
(27822 all sites)
Registered: 2/18/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/19/2010 at 12:25 PM
Should federal monies support groups like that in any way?

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!




 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/19/2010 at 03:44 PM
quote:
Should federal monies support groups like that in any way?


That's a matter of opinion. Public colleges have always permitted Student Activity funds to be used for student alliance groups such as "Black Students Associations" etc. Again remember in this case it is the university that is choosing not to permit it rather than someone trying to stop something the University is permitting. Personally I don't believe allowing University funds which fund ALL Student groups to fund a Christian Students Association is discriminatory at all. It certainly cannot be regarded as "establishing" religion per the first amendment and is not discriminatory so long as anyone who wants to start a similar group is given access to the same funds. I think if we get to the point where a public college cannot support these kinds of groups then we had better take "In God We Trust" off our money and end Christmas being a national holiday. I don't think that's necessary.

 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 27533
(27822 all sites)
Registered: 2/18/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/19/2010 at 04:53 PM
Interesting you should mention In God We Trust. Those words were added to the coins during the Civil War and only in 1957 were the words added to paper money. My thoughts are, the words could be removed and we'd still be okay since we were for a long time before. But then, I never felt God and money belonged together in the first place.

And excerpt from the link posted below:

"A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The first paper currency bearing the motto entered circulation on October 1, 1957. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) was converting to the dry intaglio printing process. During this conversion, it gradually included IN GOD WE TRUST in the back design of all classes and denominations of currency."

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!




 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 20943
(20942 all sites)
Registered: 6/15/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 4/19/2010 at 08:09 PM
quote:
Interesting you should mention In God We Trust. Those words were added to the coins during the Civil War and only in 1957 were the words added to paper money. My thoughts are, the words could be removed and we'd still be okay since we were for a long time before. But then, I never felt God and money belonged together in the first place.

And excerpt from the link posted below:

"A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The first paper currency bearing the motto entered circulation on October 1, 1957. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) was converting to the dry intaglio printing process. During this conversion, it gradually included IN GOD WE TRUST in the back design of all classes and denominations of currency."

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml


Point well taken but this has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I agree the motto does not NEED to be on the money. But the point is that the Court said it does not violate the first amendment that it is nor does a Christmas Tree in the public square.

 

____________________

 
 


Powered by XForum 1.81.1 by Trollix Software


Privacy | Terms of Service
The ALLMAN BROTHERS BAND name, The ALLMAN BROTHERS name, likenesses, logos, mushroom design and peach truck are all registered trademarks of THE ABB MERCHANDISING CO., INC. whose rights are specifically reserved. Any artwork, visual, or audio representations used on this web site CONTAINING ANY REGISTERED TRADEMARKS are under license from The ABB MERCHANDISING CO., INC. A REVOCABLE, GRATIS LICENSE IS GRANTED TO ALL REGISTERED PEACH CORP MEMBERS FOR The DOWNLOADING OF ONE COPY FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. ANY DISTRIBUTION OR REPRODUCTION OF THE TRADEMARKS CONTAINED HEREIN ARE PROHIBITED AND ARE SPECIFICALLY RESERVED BY THE ABB MERCHANDISING CO.,INC.
site by Hittin' the Web Group with www.experiencewasabi3d.com