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Author: Subject: Instant live and trading on etree

Extreme Peach





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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 03:07 AM
Folks,

I know everyone here is quite clear on the trading status of those shows covered by the Instant Live series - you can trade AUD recordings of these dates, but not the Instant Live recordings themselves.

Browsing through the records for these shows on etree, I see far too many traders listing the Instant Live recordings on their trade lists - granted, there are a few who explicitly state they are not for trade (though why list 'em in the first place, is my argument), but many more who say no such thing. The inference is, these recordings ARE available for trade.

Given that we have gone after bootleggers on eBay, would it not be a good idea to maybe issue gentle reminders to these folk, to abstain from trading these sources??

 
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Peach Head



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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 06:31 AM
I can't speak for everyone, but my list on etree also serves as a kind of inventory so I know what I have in reference to other shows. I had a soundboard of the 2/14/70 long before it's release on GD Records and the 12/13/70 before it's ABB Records release; they're still on my list - but I do include the notatioin "NOT for trade - now an official release". When I receive my copies of the Instant Live CD's, I'll do the same for these. If I don't list my shows, then on down the line I start forgetting what I do and don't have and would probably end up with extra copies in trade for something I already had! (Old age does that to you).

I do have a question - when the Instant Lives go out-of-print, will they then be tradeable? After all, money is still not changing hands.

 

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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 08:48 AM
Wasnt there tapers at the Instant Live shows also? Maybe some peeps have the copies of that...

[Edited on 10/21/2003 by WharfRat]

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 10:04 AM
Yes there were Chuck, and AUD recordings of those dates do circulate; I have seen these recordings listed on etree, with the usual taper info shown (mics, taper name etc.)

What I am referring to, and what bothers me, are those people who are specifically listing the Instant Live version (whether by name, or referring to digital SBD/AUD matrix mix) of the show for trade.

mjjochim - I know where you're coming from (it's hard to keep track of all your albums and live recordings sometimes) and, if you're stating that they are NOT FOR TRADE, I have absolutely no problem with that.

 
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Universal Peach



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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 10:10 AM
Now that the Instant Live series has been made available for mail order, it seems especially uncool to trade them for free. When it looked like they weren't going to be available for sale after the day of the show, I was sympathetic to those who wanted to hear the music, and why not have the highest quality? However, if they are still available for purchase, support the band and buy them!
 
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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 10:41 AM
Absolutely, as long as they are available for sale, they should not be traded. However, I believe that once they are no long available that they can be traded, personally. Someone had sent me one of the shows already in a trade, before they were available for sale to the general public, I ordered it anyway...
 

Peach Head



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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 11:23 AM
In my legal opinion, pauliG is exactly right. Instant live chose to only make 1000 copies of that charlotte show, for instance. once those thousand sold, the company had made its $20,000. the only claim that they could now make would be if they were traded bearing the instant live copyright, label, etc.
since the ABB encourage taping and trading, it does not follow the same rules of thought that would govern, say Brittany Spears. The band's advertising to some extent is based on trading in this fassion, and since Instant live has made 100% of their possible profit, they have no damages to claim for the further dispersal of these shows.
*****
I am editing an addition to this. since Instantlive is now making them available for sale on a broader scale, I would advise no one to buy burnt copies, as this would clearly be gaining a monetary benefit from pirating such materials. trading or giving away items has alway been a fuzzy area with respect to bands that allow trading of live shows, but I believe that as long as they are being sold by the manufacturer, in this case the cd itself is an asset that could be deemed to have been fraudulently obtained, and therefore participating in a trade of THEIR recordings could give rise to civil sanctions (I still believe criminal actions would be a bit far fetched where no money changes hands. I know that some online traders have been indicted..... but that IS NOT a conviction.)

[Edited on 10/21/2003 by kypeachcats]

 

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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 01:17 PM
quote:
In my legal opinion, pauliG is exactly right. Instant live chose to only make 1000 copies of that charlotte show, for instance. once those thousand sold, the company had made its $20,000. the only claim that they could now make would be if they were traded bearing the instant live copyright, label, etc.





I don't think anything could be further from the truth. This involves ownership principles. And the copyright holder owns the property, irrespective of whether they choose to continue selling them or not. I imagine the copyright holder is the ABB in this case, and the ABB has licensed a limited amount of production rights to Clear Channel (...just a guess on my part). But the copyright holder retains ownership even when out of print, and it's up to them to decide what to do with what they own. Not you.

This involves two different issues that are wholly separate from each other. One issue is the copyright holder deciding how much to print and whether to keep it in print or not. The second issue is whether the copyright holder chooses to give you permission to trade what they own. There are four possibilities here, and it's up to the ABB. One could be to pull their property out of print and not allow you to trade them. Another is to pull them out of print and allow you to trade them. Or keep them in print and disallow trading. Hell, if they want, they can leave it in print and allow you to trade them. Point is, it's up to the copyright holder and not you.

Some copyright holders choose to pull things out of print to control supply, and therefore boost demand so they can re-release it later at a greater price. Think Disney with their cartoon movies. I doubt seriously that's what the ABB is doing with these Instant Live deals, but it's really up to them.

And being that the ABB doesn't really articulate much of a trading policy to begin with, at least officially (we know they allow AUD audio recordings, but no pics or vids or SBDs....but I've never seen that officially written anywhere), my guess is we'll never see the band say anything official about Instant Live one way or the other. And, as has been pointed out many times on this Forum when discussing Intellectual Property rights....you probably won't ever get caught anyway. So do what you will.

 

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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 01:23 PM
Oh, and back to the original thread question, I hadn't thought about doing it, but I think I will add the I.L. shows to my etree list and mark 'em "NOT FOR TRADE." Just so I don't accidentally forget the dates and trade for them again as AUD recordings in the future. I'm with mjjochim on that.....great idea.

 

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  posted on 10/21/2003 at 06:47 PM
Zambi: well thought out and coherent response. As you may have observed in my edited version, I have backed way up on my original position. I was working under the assumption that your response implies: that the ABB retains the right to determine disseminability of its art. That is why I specifically said that any attempts to trade IL materials with any copyrighted image or name of Clear Channel would be strictly prohibited. However, I think a credible argument could and has been made that the band has control over how the music itself is conveyed.
Given that the ABB DOES ALLOW trading of its live recordings, I think that the issue of trading burnt copies of IL as opposed to private recordings of the same show would make a fascinating law school question. Doesn't IL enter that transaction KNOWING that the same material will be available FOR FREE by completely legal means?
However, since the ABB has apparently now licensed IL to further market that material, I believe that Clear Channel would conceivably own the right to intervene, and therefore prohibit such acts. I am assuming that their legal beagles saw this issue coming and drafted that into the contracts. I believe the answer is the same whether you are trading or giving away, but there may be some room to distinguish there. I am now wondering if you are also a (curse, hiss) attorney. you know everybody cusses us until they need one.

 

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  posted on 10/22/2003 at 10:48 AM
quote:
Absolutely, as long as they are available for sale, they should not be traded. However, I believe that once they are no long available that they can be traded, personally. Someone had sent me one of the shows already in a trade, before they were available for sale to the general public, I ordered it anyway...



This is wrong.

The instant live is copywrited material. You can not legally trade these.
This also goes against the limited edition nature of the release.

If ya want the shows there are audience recordings that are available
and can still be traded.

But the instant live sound boards are NOT to be traded.

If we start breaking the rules, who is to say the Brothers will not ban all live taping?

Peace
John

[Edited on 10/22/2003 by johnwott]

 

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Peach Head



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  posted on 10/22/2003 at 12:02 PM


If we start breaking the rules, who is to say the Brothers will not ban all live taping?

Peace
John

[Edited on 10/22/2003 by johnwott]

best point of all because, again, it is THEIR ART that it is OUR privelege to witness.

 

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People can you feel it? love is everywhere. The road goes on forever, the music never ends. now go eat a peach for peace.

 
 


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