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Author: Subject: Uncredited Duane session? MP3 file available. Your comments ...

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 3/12/2006 at 04:59 PM
Yeah i'm pretty sure it's not Duane
there are lots of off notes, and it has a slight hint of Duane, but it is not.

[Edited on 3/12/2006 by Mt_Magnolia_Man]

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 3/15/2006 at 01:04 AM
Well let me weigh in with my two cents worth. I don't think it is Duane for a couple of reasons. For starters:

1. I get the distinct impression that the person playing on this cut is using a pick, unlike Duane who played with his fingers. At approx 1:00 and 1:47 into the song the guitar plays a single note (no chords) melodic turnaround unaccompanied save for a quite beat kept by the drummer on his snare.
Listening to the notes that comprise this riff, there seems to be a percussive hardness at the very beginning of each note which would indicate a pick was used to pluck the string as opposed to a finger. Also towards the end of this riff (both times) the slide is slurred across several strings in a manner that somewhat powers the song back into the main structure. This slur as it is played, seems to lack Duane's sweetness of tone and precision. two qualities that can be greatly enhanced by plucking with thumb and fingers instead of a pick.

Playing with the thumb and fingers has one very great advantage over using a pick which is most noticeable in how the strings are damped (muted) as the melody changes from one string to another.
Playing a riff that shifts from the B string to the higher E string you must dampen the B string or it will continue to vibrate audibly behind the E string and will probably do so with a sloppy, out of tune, wiry sound.
This is a common occurence when using a pick for this reason; With a pick in your hand, basically, there are only two ways to mute a string. Either by lifting the slide off the strings and letting the fingers behind the slide mute the strings or by using the heel of your palm on the picking hand.
Neither method is overly suitable for muting a single string such as when you are playing lead. Too much ringing from the off-string. Plucking with your thumb and fingers allows you to totally mute one string with your thumb at the exact same time your finger is plucking another string. This is virtually a pre-requisite for that sweetness of tone and precision. All through this song you can hear that slightly out of tune "Two String Ring". It is my opinion that whoever plays on this song, plays too much with too little attention to this aspect.

2. Duane was a master at arranging the parts he played, and how his parts would fit into the different sections of a song. This is most evidenced by the care and attention he gave to making sure that his parts would enhance, not just the song, but parts played by the other musicians as well. (Compare this song with Please Be With Me by Cowboy or Hey Jude)
This song begins with approx. 26 seconds of an opening statement chord progression that is played by what sounds like an acoustic guitar, a piano, bass and drums behind a series of slide riffs that somewhat preview those found throughout the song. At approx 20 seconds the band's dynamics begin a fade that will segue into the main body of the song. At 24 seconds the slide plays a riff on the lower strings that is indeed classic Duane. The problem is that they completely miss the opportunity for the slide to bring much more of an emotional dynamic to the chord changes that precede the coming segue.

3. As for how similar this player sounds to Duane, there is an economic aspect that we must remember. Generally speaking only performers who are more well established will have the financial backing that allows them to hire top quality marquis session players like Duane. What this does is create a substantial opening for session players who can closely emulate the styles and sound of a player like Duane.(Cheaper too) Thus it would be fairly safe to assume that, at any given time, there were/are probably a number of talented session players who put in a good deal of time and effort learning to play like Duane.

4. Part of Duanes brilliance during a session was that he would be playing so fine that it inspired the other musicians to excel and strive to attain that "next level" quality. This song closes with a short lead break (normal lead, not slide) that is played with flash and attack. I don't, however, get the impression that the person playing it is in the same room as the thoroughly intimidating presence of Duane Allman.

5. Finally, when I listen to this slide player's parts I don't get the sense that this is a guy who will still be talked about, and recognized as the innovative force that was/is Duane Allman

Well, these are my opinions. More to follow.

Marion

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/15/2006 at 06:21 AM
Hey,
Thanx for e-mailing me the cut so I could have a listen and post my thoughts...Listened to it twice. I am a Guitar player, have been since 1973 when I first heard "Statesboro Blues" by the Bros. I Have studied/Copied Duane's licks and style and Understand his technique...Using the slide to approach a note from the flat side and then dampening the strings with the heel of your palm...And this is NOT Duane...No way..Not even close ..Not playing Slide anyway...I am 99.99% sure on this..It's just not his approach.

 

World Class Peach



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  posted on 3/15/2006 at 07:42 PM
Marion,

Duane did occasionally use a pick when playing slide....you can hear different intonations...
I'm quite sure.... but this ain't him.....(I believes.....)

[Edited on 9/9/2006 by PeachNutt]

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 3/16/2006 at 03:07 AM
Gary, do you recall some specific occasions when Duane was using a pick on slide?

quote:
Generally speaking only performers who are more well established will have the financial backing that allows them to hire top quality marquis session players like Duane. What this does is create a substantial opening for session players who can closely emulate the styles and sound of a player like Duane.(Cheaper too) Thus it would be fairly safe to assume that, at any given time, there were/are probably a number of talented session players who put in a good deal of time and effort learning to play like Duane.

As Duane had little public recognition at this point (prior to both Layla & Fillmore East) it's difficult to conceive that there were many slide players around who were influenced by him and were making an attempt to incorporate his style. Not impossible but seemingly unlikely at this time.

Would also like to comment that Duane had his weaker slide sessions. The one that I always found thin and unimaginative was "One More Ride", the instumental outtake from the Idlewild South sessions that appears on the Dreams boxset. I believe there are good reasons that this wasn't included on the original release. Hurts to even think about this but even Duane had an occasional lapse, particularly earlier in his slide playing career. What's amazing (and which "More Than Enough Rain" does not represent if it is him) is his later consistency in intensity, imagination and technical competence.



[Edited on 3/16/2006 by dzobo]

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2006 at 01:05 AM
In trying to bring this thing to a final conclusion, would like to report that two people, who most people on this site hold in high regard and previously were unheard on this issue, had contradictory opinions regarding this.

In a P.M. Peter Nelson felt that there was nothing that indicated this was not Duane.

With the help of Blake Budney, Derek Trucks recently received a copy of the song and listened to it with Blake. Blake states that Derek thinks this is probably not Duane.

I think the issue now requires some sort of epic faceoff between these two titans. Any suggestions for how they could resolve this?

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 7/13/2006 at 07:01 PM
quote:
In trying to bring this thing to a final conclusion, would like to report that two people, who most people on this site hold in high regard and previously were unheard on this issue, had contradictory opinions regarding this.

In a P.M. Peter Nelson felt that there was nothing that indicated this was not Duane.

With the help of Blake Budney, Derek Trucks recently received a copy of the song and listened to it with Blake. Blake states that Derek thinks this is probably not Duane.

I think the issue now requires some sort of epic faceoff between these two titans. Any suggestions for how they could resolve this?


Don,
It's great to have had a contact and been listened by Peter Nelson and Derek Trucks.
Answer to this recordings are not so easy to resolve I think, but did you have a contact to Kirk West?
If you don't know his user name on this site, verbal is so.
Of course I can't say he should response to you but if you didn't conatct him ever, try to PM him is one of the selection to resolve this.
If you did already, I'm sorry for this post.

 

Extreme Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2006 at 12:46 AM
quote:
Answer to this recordings are not so easy to resolve I think, but did you have a contact to Kirk West?

Always glad to see you posting, Masahiko. Kirk West expressed a lot of interest when I informed him about the history of this recording. He thought that Stuart Krause might have really unearthed some lost Duane treasure and expressed his appreciation for a fan of the band digging into this. I was so enthusiatic about it that I mentioned to Kirk to keep in mind that Bobby Lance still lived in New York, and if it appeared that this was clearly Duane material, perhaps Bobby could be contacted about participating in some way in this year's Beacon run. This was before even I heard the recording. When I received the cassette and created the mp3, Kirk was in the initial mailing group. I don't know if it was because there was just too much uncertainty about whether this was Duane or just that Kirk was too occupied with the Beacon run, but he never did respond. His opinion certainly would be appreciated. I'll try to contact him again.

[Edited on 7/14/2006 by dzobo]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 7/14/2006 at 10:43 PM
I do know with some early and ecclectic songs there is sometimes a question as to who is actually playing. Kirk brought a tape to our house to play for Johnny believing it to be Duane. He was fairly upset when Johnny told him it wasn't. I only say this because it's difficult sometimes to know what he did and didn't play on.....unless you were there when it happened....and of course we have that memory thing mentioned in an earlier post so sometimes even that isn't reliable.

And Johnny said he played on so many tracks. Duane used to just pop into the studio and ask if there was anything they needed him on. There were several times he listened to a song and said there was nothing he had to add and left.

 

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Extreme Peach



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  posted on 9/8/2006 at 03:02 PM
Did eventually hear from Kirk West who passed the track on to Warren. Neither felt it was likely to be Duane.

If anyone has a good idea who this mystery slide player might be please post. Stuart Krause (and myself) still remain interested. Some speculation that it might have been Eddie Hinton but apparently Eddie had only dabbled and never done anything as extensive.

 

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Peach Pit



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  posted on 11/10/2014 at 10:28 AM
I know this thread is quite old, but I thought I'd update it with the news that Bobby Lance's two albums are due for their first-ever reissue in 2015; I'm involved with the project and am busy trying to track down Lance. If anyone can assist, please let me know!

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 11/10/2014 at 06:30 PM
Excellent news....
Marion - Sorry I didn't answer earlier but judging by my ear (which I think is quite good) the outtakes of Mean Old World on the Layla box certainly sound like a pick to me......

 

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