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Author: Subject: About Those Jobs Claims....

Maximum Peach





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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 10:39 AM
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.

We've been treated this week to numerous supporters of the current Administration touting "4.5 million jobs added" as proof that current leadership is on the right path.

Not so fast.

As CNN points out, the real number is only.... 300,000

I imagine most minds here are made up regarding their vote in November. But Obama voters will have to invent a lot of rationalization that their decision is based on positive economic performance, as the facts just don't support the claims...


quote:
CNN Fact Check: About those 4.5 million jobs ...

(CNN) -- Anyone watching the Democratic National Convention on Tuesday night heard the number 4.5 million several times.

"Despite incredible odds and united Republican opposition, our president took action, and now we've seen 4.5 million new jobs," San Antonio Mayor Julian Castro, the party's keynote speaker, said.

Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel, who served as President Barack Obama's chief of staff, and Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick, who followed Obama's November rival Mitt Romney as governor of Massachusetts, both cited the same number.

Sights and sounds from the DNC

It's a big-sounding number, given the still-sputtering job market. So we're giving it a close eyeballing.

The facts:

The number Castro cites is an accurate description of the growth of private-sector jobs since January 2010, when the long, steep slide in employment finally hit bottom. But while a total of 4.5 million jobs sounds great, it's not the whole picture.

Nonfarm private payrolls hit a post-recession low of 106.8 million that month, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. The figure currently stands at 111.3 million as of July.

While that is indeed a gain of 4.5 million, it's only a net gain of 300,000 over the course of the Obama administration to date. The private jobs figure stood at 111 million in January 2009, the month Obama took office.

And total nonfarm payrolls, including government workers, are down from 133.6 million workers at the beginning of 2009 to 133.2 million in July 2012. There's been a net loss of nearly 1 million public-sector jobs since Obama took office, despite a surge in temporary hiring for the 2010 census.

Meanwhile, the jobs that have come back aren't the same ones that were lost.

Are you better off?

According to a study released last week by the liberal-leaning National Employment Law Project, low-wage fields such as retail sales and food service are adding jobs nearly three times as fast as higher-paid occupations.

Conclusion:

The figure of 4.5 million jobs is accurate if you look at the most favorable period and category for the administration. But overall, there are still fewer people working now than when Obama took office at the height of the recession.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/05/politics/fact-check-obama-jobs/index.html


 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 10:42 AM
This is all about perspective.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 10:44 AM
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.


I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 10:46 AM
quote:
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.


I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?


Restore faith in the leadership that is to come from the Oval Office???

 

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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 11:00 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.


I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?


Restore faith in the leadership that is to come from the Oval Office???


So that's all it takes? No legislation, no policy, just make everyone feel good?

Choirs of financial angels will sing when Romney is elected? Who's looking for a Messiah now?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 11:12 AM
quote:
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.

I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?

If all he does is remove the sense of suspended animation in the minds of business owners fearful of more taxes, regulation, and govt burdens, then that alone will be enough for me.

Let me ask: if it were your money and your personal stake in the world depended upon it, who would you turn to for business or investment advice; Romney or Obama?

Hard to imagine any knowledgable, reasonable person choosing the latter.

 

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uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,

so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 11:26 AM
quote:
This is all about perspective.

No, it isn't.

It's about simple math.

BLS numbers...

-- Jan. 2009: total non-farm employment - 133.56 million jobs

-- Aug. 2012: total non-farm employment - 133.3 million jobs

Obviously this differs slightly with the CNN numbers, but by such a small margin as to call it a push.

In the same period, US population growth is what - 305 million in 2009 and an estimated 311 million now. Six million more people, zero new jobs.

Like I said; anyone voting for Obama based on beliefs of economic improvement is kidding only themselves.

 

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Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured

uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,

so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 11:28 AM


Romneys biggest mistake was penning that op-ed saying that the right thing to do would be to let detroit go bankrupt. To this day, it must strike fear in the minds of many middle class voters and doesnt make Mitt look Presidential and pro jobs. It might of been the right business thing to do, for people who think like and act like wealthy Mitt- their investments in GM would be the first in-line to be made whole thru the bankrupcty process. Common shareholders and employees would bear the losses, as usual ala the Mitt way. Instead, with Obamas plan, bondholders took a loss and some dealerships were closed. He spread the pain-shared sacrifice. Saving the auto industry is the most valid arguement for Obama and middle class jobs.

 

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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 11:58 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.

I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?

If all he does is remove the sense of suspended animation in the minds of business owners fearful of more taxes, regulation, and govt burdens, then that alone will be enough for me.

Let me ask: if it were your money and your personal stake in the world depended upon it, who would you turn to for business or investment advice; Romney or Obama?

Hard to imagine any knowledgable, reasonable person choosing the latter.


What does business or investment advice have to do with governing?

The two Presidents with the most "business" experience were Herbert Hoover and George W. Bush. How'd they do?

 

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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:01 PM
quote:
quote:
This is all about perspective.

No, it isn't.

It's about simple math.

BLS numbers...

-- Jan. 2009: total non-farm employment - 133.56 million jobs

-- Aug. 2012: total non-farm employment - 133.3 million jobs

Obviously this differs slightly with the CNN numbers, but by such a small margin as to call it a push.

In the same period, US population growth is what - 305 million in 2009 and an estimated 311 million now. Six million more people, zero new jobs.

Like I said; anyone voting for Obama based on beliefs of economic improvement is kidding only themselves.


So, the economy is in exactly the same state as it was when Obama took office? Exactly the same?

And, please, for future note (even though this is when you'll tell me that you actually support no side), I want to be clear...the state of the economy is squarely on the shoulders of whoever is President and the President alone? There are no other factors, outside or inside? Congress has no effect on such matters?

Government, stay out of my life. Government, get me a job.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:05 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.

I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?

If all he does is remove the sense of suspended animation in the minds of business owners fearful of more taxes, regulation, and govt burdens, then that alone will be enough for me.

Let me ask: if it were your money and your personal stake in the world depended upon it, who would you turn to for business or investment advice; Romney or Obama?

Hard to imagine any knowledgable, reasonable person choosing the latter.

What does business or investment advice have to do with governing?

The two Presidents with the most "business" experience were Herbert Hoover and George W. Bush. How'd they do?

It's obvious that the current nitwit in charge can neither govern nor improve economic conditions.

Time for a change.

 

____________________
Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured

uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,

so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:05 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.


I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?


Restore faith in the leadership that is to come from the Oval Office???


So that's all it takes? No legislation, no policy, just make everyone feel good?

Choirs of financial angels will sing when Romney is elected? Who's looking for a Messiah now?


It happened four years ago, just a different Messiah. More like a false prophet.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:09 PM
I would imagine those 4.5 million people who were previously out of work are rather glad they now have a job. I think Obama should definitely get credit for restoring them since it happened during his administration.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:11 PM
quote:
I would imagine those 4.5 million people who were previously out of work are rather glad they now have a job. I think Obama should definitely get credit for restoring them since it happened during his administration.

It happened during my retirement. I think I should get credit for at least one.

 

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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:13 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.

I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?

If all he does is remove the sense of suspended animation in the minds of business owners fearful of more taxes, regulation, and govt burdens, then that alone will be enough for me.

Let me ask: if it were your money and your personal stake in the world depended upon it, who would you turn to for business or investment advice; Romney or Obama?

Hard to imagine any knowledgable, reasonable person choosing the latter.

What does business or investment advice have to do with governing?

The two Presidents with the most "business" experience were Herbert Hoover and George W. Bush. How'd they do?

It's obvious that the current nitwit in charge can neither govern nor improve economic conditions.

Time for a change.


So, how'd the other businessmen do?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:15 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I mentioned in another thread that anyone not basing their upcoming vote on economic issues is being unrealistic. Without a turnaround and rapid expansion in our economic conditions, the things held dear by both sides of the political spectrum will only unravel further and crash.


I have zero idea, besides tax cuts, what Mitt Romney intends to do. Do you?


Restore faith in the leadership that is to come from the Oval Office???


So that's all it takes? No legislation, no policy, just make everyone feel good?

Choirs of financial angels will sing when Romney is elected? Who's looking for a Messiah now?


It happened four years ago, just a different Messiah. More like a false prophet.


Wow. That's the most effective sales job of Romney yet.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:24 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
This is all about perspective.

No, it isn't.

It's about simple math.

BLS numbers...

-- Jan. 2009: total non-farm employment - 133.56 million jobs

-- Aug. 2012: total non-farm employment - 133.3 million jobs

Obviously this differs slightly with the CNN numbers, but by such a small margin as to call it a push.

In the same period, US population growth is what - 305 million in 2009 and an estimated 311 million now. Six million more people, zero new jobs.

Like I said; anyone voting for Obama based on beliefs of economic improvement is kidding only themselves.


So, the economy is in exactly the same state as it was when Obama took office? Exactly the same?

And, please, for future note (even though this is when you'll tell me that you actually support no side), I want to be clear...the state of the economy is squarely on the shoulders of whoever is President and the President alone? There are no other factors, outside or inside? Congress has no effect on such matters?

Government, stay out of my life. Government, get me a job.

Nice deflection, however irrevelant to the issue of jobs. Apparently you don't mind when Fearless Leader and his cronies lies about something as important to people as their employment.

Not only have the jobs numbers not moved, but they've moved in the wrong direction regarding income. Doesn't President "Fairness" constantly spout concern for the poor and middle class? How has anything he's done on his watch, with the tools at his disposal, helped those groups in any way other than unsustainable handouts? He now bases his reelection on faith. Faith, or as the title of a book in my office says about "Hope", is not a strategy.

When he sould have been focused on jobs and the economy, he wasted more than two years flogging health care that divided the country. He hasn't met with his jobs council in over six months. Show me a proposal he's made to Congress for economic and jobs growth that hasn't involved massive new spending. There are a raft of things he could work with Congress on that would improve conditions but not be new spending directed by DC cronies. Name anything like that he's tried. But he's the man to help on jobs and the economy. What a delusion!

Getting govt to stop doing things that harm the ability of the private sector to grow is not the same as asking govt for a job. Govt doesn't create self-sustaining jobs, only private businesses do that. But govt's impositions upon the private sector can stiffle and kill the environment for opportunity to flourish. Having said that in a thousand different ways only to endlessly see your same response, I doubt you'll ever see the difference.

 

____________________
Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured

uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,

so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:29 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
This is all about perspective.

No, it isn't.

It's about simple math.

BLS numbers...

-- Jan. 2009: total non-farm employment - 133.56 million jobs

-- Aug. 2012: total non-farm employment - 133.3 million jobs

Obviously this differs slightly with the CNN numbers, but by such a small margin as to call it a push.

In the same period, US population growth is what - 305 million in 2009 and an estimated 311 million now. Six million more people, zero new jobs.

Like I said; anyone voting for Obama based on beliefs of economic improvement is kidding only themselves.


So, the economy is in exactly the same state as it was when Obama took office? Exactly the same?

And, please, for future note (even though this is when you'll tell me that you actually support no side), I want to be clear...the state of the economy is squarely on the shoulders of whoever is President and the President alone? There are no other factors, outside or inside? Congress has no effect on such matters?

Government, stay out of my life. Government, get me a job.

Nice deflection, however irrevelant to the issue of jobs. Apparently you don't mind when Fearless Leader and his cronies lies about something as important to people as their employment.

Not only have the jobs numbers not moved, but they've moved in the wrong direction regarding income. Doesn't President "Fairness" constantly spout concern for the poor and middle class? How has anything he's done on his watch, with the tools at his disposal, helped those groups in any way other than unsustainable handouts? He now bases his reelection on faith. Faith, or as the title of a book in my office says about "Hope", is not a strategy.

When he sould have been focused on jobs and the economy, he wasted more than two years flogging health care that divided the country. He hasn't met with his jobs council in over six months. Show me a proposal he's made to Congress for economic and jobs growth that hasn't involved massive new spending. There are a raft of things he could work with Congress on that would improve conditions but not be new spending directed by DC cronies. Name anything like that he's tried. But he's the man to help on jobs and the economy. What a delusion!

Getting govt to stop doing things that harm the ability of the private sector to grow is not the same as asking govt for a job. Govt doesn't create self-sustaining jobs, only private businesses do that. But govt's impositions upon the private sector can stiffle and kill the environment for opportunity to flourish. Having said that in a thousand different ways only to endlessly see your same response, I doubt you'll ever see the difference.



I cannot respond to a person who has decided that only he has the right answers and so obviously and arrogantly looks down on those who disagree with him.

Have a nice life, Rich.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 12:54 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
This is all about perspective.

No, it isn't.

It's about simple math.

BLS numbers...

-- Jan. 2009: total non-farm employment - 133.56 million jobs

-- Aug. 2012: total non-farm employment - 133.3 million jobs

Obviously this differs slightly with the CNN numbers, but by such a small margin as to call it a push.

In the same period, US population growth is what - 305 million in 2009 and an estimated 311 million now. Six million more people, zero new jobs.

Like I said; anyone voting for Obama based on beliefs of economic improvement is kidding only themselves.


So, the economy is in exactly the same state as it was when Obama took office? Exactly the same?

And, please, for future note (even though this is when you'll tell me that you actually support no side), I want to be clear...the state of the economy is squarely on the shoulders of whoever is President and the President alone? There are no other factors, outside or inside? Congress has no effect on such matters?

Government, stay out of my life. Government, get me a job.

Nice deflection, however irrevelant to the issue of jobs. Apparently you don't mind when Fearless Leader and his cronies lies about something as important to people as their employment.

Not only have the jobs numbers not moved, but they've moved in the wrong direction regarding income. Doesn't President "Fairness" constantly spout concern for the poor and middle class? How has anything he's done on his watch, with the tools at his disposal, helped those groups in any way other than unsustainable handouts? He now bases his reelection on faith. Faith, or as the title of a book in my office says about "Hope", is not a strategy.

When he sould have been focused on jobs and the economy, he wasted more than two years flogging health care that divided the country. He hasn't met with his jobs council in over six months. Show me a proposal he's made to Congress for economic and jobs growth that hasn't involved massive new spending. There are a raft of things he could work with Congress on that would improve conditions but not be new spending directed by DC cronies. Name anything like that he's tried. But he's the man to help on jobs and the economy. What a delusion!

Getting govt to stop doing things that harm the ability of the private sector to grow is not the same as asking govt for a job. Govt doesn't create self-sustaining jobs, only private businesses do that. But govt's impositions upon the private sector can stiffle and kill the environment for opportunity to flourish. Having said that in a thousand different ways only to endlessly see your same response, I doubt you'll ever see the difference.


I cannot respond to a person who has decided that only he has the right answers and so obviously and arrogantly looks down on those who disagree with him.

Have a nice life, Rich.

Disprove anything I've said that isn't clearly my opinion. The personality attack is beneath you.

-- Have the jobs numbers (non-farm total employment reported from the BLS) improved from the beginning of his term to now?

-- If not, then the claims of 4.5 million new jobs are mathematically false, right?

-- Has the population not grown by millions in the last 3 3/4 years, meaning that a net zero job growth actually means we're going backwards?

-- Have not incomes declined for the very classes he says he most cares about?

-- Is it untrue that he's not met with his jobs council in over six months?

-- Has he proposed jobs or economic growth options that don't involve new govt spending, and benefit private enterprises in a broad way?


Warning: the following is my opinion and personal perspective...

I don't blame him for anything that came before his term. I look at what he's done during it. In economic terms; nothing he's done benefits the private sector in ways that help create jobs or inspire growth without harming the taxpayer.

 

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uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,

so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 01:04 PM
Fact: there are lots of jobs out there.
Fact: no one wants to do them because they dont pay enough and the government will pay you not to work.
Fact: get used to a spending for things you need not want and those jobs will work just fine.

 

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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 01:33 PM
The good news for the GOP is that the Obama voters are showing us the kind of (poor) economic job performance they are willing to defend. It's all being noted for future reference.
 

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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 01:34 PM
The good news for the GOP is that the Obama voters are showing us the kind of (poor) economic job performance they are willing to defend. It's all being noted for future reference.
 

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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 01:38 PM
quote:


Let me ask: if it were your money and your personal stake in the world depended upon it, who would you turn to for business or investment advice; Romney or Obama?




Mitt of course. The idea of having some of my investments in off shore accounts - Bermuda, the Caymans, etc. would make me feel like a big time player. By the way, I love the Cayman Islands. Would be nice when I visit there to know I have some money stashed there.

Invest in America & American jobs.

 

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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 01:38 PM
quote:
The personality attack is beneath you.


I would say the same thing anytime would infer that someone is delusional. You are better than that as well.

quote:
-- Have the jobs numbers (non-farm total employment reported from the BLS) improved from the beginning of his term to now?

-- If not, then the claims of 4.5 million new jobs are mathematically false, right?

-- Has the population not grown by millions in the last 3 3/4 years, meaning that a net zero job growth actually means we're going backwards?




I believe what you state here still leaves an incomplete picture as well as some things factored in that I would think that some folks wold be happy with.

The private sector number CNN calls correct, right? They then subtract a large number of public sector jobs lost. Now, does not reduction of public sector jobs mean reducing the size of government, and is therefore a positive and not a negative to you? How else to reduce the size of government than to recude the number of people working for it? I would think that must be taken into consideration.

The population growth, OK, those six million more people, how many of those were immigrant new citizens of working age? Certainly you don't expect several million infants and toddlers to factor into employment numbers? Unless there is a way to increase population without birthing more people that I'm not aware of?

quote:
-- Have not incomes declined for the very classes he says he most cares about?


Yes, there has been a decline in income for most groups, with the exception of those over 65. But, this is what I was talking about when I mentioned perspective:



Incomes have been declining since 1999. What's the over/under on trends? When does which President get credit for what?

quote:
-- Is it untrue that he's not met with his jobs council in over six months?

-- Has he proposed jobs or economic growth options that don't involve new govt spending, and benefit private enterprises in a broad way?


The Jobs Council met plenty of times and made many sound recommendations, many of which were included in the JOBS Act that is now law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpstart_Our_Business_Startups_Act

More meetings would solve things? C'mon, you worked in Corporate America. You know the answer to that.

But, bigger things need to be done and I would be the first to agree. I'm pretty sure that you are referring to the American Jobs Act when you mention spending. Of course you can find things you do and don't like about such a proposal. But, I would like to point out that was when John Boehner said that a football game was more important than people watching a speech from the President on jobs. Was it?

How can people say that Obama has done nothing when they mock him when he does do something? How can people say that "the Democrats had control of the White House and Congress and got nothing done," out of one side of their mouth, but then lament "they shoved this healthcare thing down our throats!" out of the other? Damned if you do...

I think that "name one thing that he has done that..." it is a bit disingenous, because it adds conditions to making a proposal, whatever it is, in the first goddam place. You have to start somewhere. It is now very, very well documented that top GOP people strategized from the onset to block and/or vote against anything and everything, no matter what. Does that place some sort of "blame" on them entirely? No! Do they bear responsibility in the matter? Yes!

I would have a whole lot more respect for Republicans in Congress if at any point they had made any sort of stand saying "We need to get moving on jobs and we need to do it now." I cannot agree with the notion that Obama has done "nothing" and then at the same time conclude he is only one who has done "nothing."

I'm not deluded, Rich. I simply disagree.

 

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"Live every week like it's Shark Week." - Tracy Jordan

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
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  posted on 9/7/2012 at 01:45 PM
I tend to agree with Rich on the way that this administration and the BLS has manipulated the numbers. The available worker number (as determined by unemployment reports) has declined and the true unemployment percentage is much higher than is published.

the 4.5 million number is **** .

Median income has declined.

There is a general sense of entitlement - especially amongst organized labor advocates that makes kdick's Fact #2 a sad reality.

16 trillion is a real number, and you can't blame W anymore.

I do not agree with kdick's fact #1. At least in this area, and we have the highest rate of employment in the state for a metropolitan area. We have people come in and ask if we are hiring on nearly a daily basis.

I have been watching the job market for my area of expertise for 4 years now, both through postings and my professional contacts, and positions are scarce and the competition for those positions is unbelievably high. And, the employers are lowballing the hell out of those that do apply. It's definitely much worse than at any time since I have been in the workforce.

 

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