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Zen Peach





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  posted on 2/9/2007 at 12:12 PM
February deaths - 36
January deaths - 86

Total dead - 3,118

February Iraqi civilian deaths - 558
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802

[Edited on 2/10/2007 by bigann]

[Edited on 1/1/2008 by bigann]

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/9/2007 at 12:26 PM
The 10th Mountain Division based up here in Watertown, NY had about a dozen deaths in the past 3 weeks. It's to the point where the local CBS affiliate reports every other day of multiple deaths. We had two on Tuesday, and one reported this morning.
 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/9/2007 at 12:38 PM
quote:
The 10th Mountain Division based up here in Watertown, NY had about a dozen deaths in the past 3 weeks. It's to the point where the local CBS affiliate reports every other day of multiple deaths. We had two on Tuesday, and one reported this morning.


 

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  posted on 2/9/2007 at 02:11 PM
Here is another intersting set of figures....

Total wounded - 23,417
Total non-mortal casualties - 54, 910

Countless lives have been directly and indirectly altered and our elected officials can't even get it together to pass a non-binding resolution!

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/10/2007 at 01:07 PM
Today's updated total:

February deaths - 39
January deaths - 86

Total dead - 3,121

February Iraqi civilian deaths - 568
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/10/2007 at 04:25 PM
quote:
Today's updated total:

February deaths - 39
January deaths - 86

Total dead - 3,121

February Iraqi civilian deaths - 568
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802


Do you have any numbers on daily deaths in other wars such as Korea, Vietnam, WWII or WWI?

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/10/2007 at 04:30 PM
Nope......those wars are all history.....people are dying now. They are the ones I'm recognizing..each day.....in this war.

 

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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 2/10/2007 at 04:36 PM
See the thing is Ann some folks don't think it is necessary to actually know the facts of those who are injured or perish. One of those numbers belongs to a young man, a friend of my son who was shot in the face on Christmas Day in Iraq.

He is a great kid and a real hero and he should be counted, if he was man enough to take a bullet in the face then people should be man/women enough to acknowledge it.

[Edited on 2/10/2007 by PattyG]

 

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  posted on 2/10/2007 at 04:48 PM
You're right Patty. I'm going to amend my postings to include wounded....their sacrafice should be equally acknowledged!

Total wounded - 33, 814

February '07 - 40
January '07 - 631

 

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  posted on 2/10/2007 at 04:51 PM
That wasn't for you Ann it was for those who don't think it necessary that we should acknowledge any of them.

 

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  posted on 2/10/2007 at 04:59 PM
I know, Patty, but you helped me recognize the information needs to be out there. And those figures don't include those who were injured and returned to duty!

While I'm at it please permit me a rant. These men and women are being asked to stay over in Iraq for two, three, even four tours of duty. It's wrong and it's demoralizing. This war is being prosecuted by men who need to be prosecuted for mismanagement. Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush never saw day of combat, the first two didn't even serve, and their criteria for selecting people to help rebuild Iraq has been based, not on qualifications, but whether or not they voted for Bush. It's prevented our soldiers from being able to complete their mission and kept them in harms way. I'm sorry to say, I don't have any figures that will tell how many lost their lives due to that situation....

 

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  posted on 2/10/2007 at 11:58 PM
quote:
Nope......those wars are all history.....people are dying now. They are the ones I'm recognizing..each day.....in this war.

Nothing wrong with recognizing sacrifice. But spouting numbers does not do that. You know how you recognize sacrifice? You tell stories of their heroism so we can know what they did, as has been done in every war. But when numbers are recited they are for one reason, to demoralize the country so that we abandon the effort and make all the sacrifices for nothing. Whatever has gone wrong to this point (as happened in all those wars of history) Many of us and many of them don't believe the sacrifice was for nothing. But if we go home in defeat it will be for nothing.

 

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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 12:38 AM
I'm not spouting numbers.....I'm trying to raise awareness.....and I refuse to accept the arguement that wanting this war to end so no one else has to die for something as poorly executed as this war is demoralizing the country. Keeping soldiers in a war without an exit strategy is not honoring them and wanting them to come home is not demeaning their sacrafice. Sorry, but I can't support 'staying the course' just because someone has the perception that going home is a defeat.

These soldiers have no reason to feel defeated....they've done their part....but shame on the people making the decisions that are getting them killed. And the numbers I post are not just numbers.....every one of them has a face, a family and a story.

And may I ask about your military service?

[Edited on 2/11/2007 by bigann]

 

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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 12:42 AM
quote:
But when numbers are recited they are for one reason, to demoralize the country so that we abandon the effort and make all the sacrifices for nothing.


I don't think this is true. First of all, I don't think we can always assume we know why other people do or say things. Secondly, I don't find the numbers demoralizing; I find them sobering, tragic and respectful. And lastly, I think it's disgusting the way the horrific number of Iraqis killed in this invasion has never exactly been front page news, so thank you, ann, for mentioning the numbers that represent mostly civilians--women, children, students, police, marketplace vendors, worshippers...

may they all rest in peace

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 03:45 AM
quote:
quote:
But when numbers are recited they are for one reason, to demoralize the country so that we abandon the effort and make all the sacrifices for nothing.


I don't think this is true. First of all, I don't think we can always assume we know why other people do or say things. Secondly, I don't find the numbers demoralizing; I find them sobering, tragic and respectful. And lastly, I think it's disgusting the way the horrific number of Iraqis killed in this invasion has never exactly been front page news, so thank you, ann, for mentioning the numbers that represent mostly civilians--women, children, students, police, marketplace vendors, worshippers...

may they all rest in peace


First of all let me say that I hesitantly jump in this discussion. It is a very volatile & emotionally charged subject. The death of any serviceman (or woman) is a tragedy. Bearing that in mind it is what they decided to volunteer to do. I realize this is comes across as somewhat callous and I don't mean it to be, but the nature of service in the military is to kill the enemy (whoever the state deems so). In that process there will be losses of life. It is the nature of the occupation. Military service is not an extension of the Peace Corps.

I do tend to lean to a different tack than the majority that has been posted on this thread. (Ann, I love you girl & I thank you for your hard work & contributions to this site. It's people like you that makes it feel like family). I feel that the purpose of posting casualties is to express opposition to the operation in Iraq. Plain & simple. And let me say that you have every right to do so. The more people on this planet that realize the real tradedy of war is the suffering of the innocent (and no one should have the right to do so), the better off we will be in the future. Sadly, there are many still that wish nothing but assimilation or annillation of those that do not conform to their beliefs or way of life.

There are losses of life every day in every conceivable fashion. Each & every one of them a tragedy to someone. The reason that drunk driving and smoking are such no-no's in today's society is that groups like MADD started posting statistics on casualties of drunk drivers and the ACS started listing statistics. The American people decided that this was unacceptable. Let's face it, we kill many more on the highways of the US than the last four years in Iraq. We murder each other much more than our casualties in Iraq. In California (an area & population roughly comparible to Iraq) more people die each year from homicide than troop casualties in Iraq, and we blithly accept it.

I don't mean to denigrate the sacrifice of the warriors or make light of each & every death, but I would like to ask another question. Without googling, can anyone state off the top of their head how many American were killed in Iraq in the whole year of 2006? It's about the same as the murder rate of any large city in the US.

It's all perception. If I were to say to you that the same number of service men (and women) would be killed in four years in Iraq as attended just one ABB concert date at the Beacon, most of us would probably say, gee, that's not too many. It's all perception.

You want to talk numbers? Fine. Would it be worth the lives of over 600,000 Americans and countless millions of wounded & crippled for life, with overwhelming devistation to the civilian population to free people that were held in slavery for generations?

Would it be worth it to occupy a country we conquered, despite the casualties, to turn them into a stable, democratic society?

This is what was trying to happen in Iraq. Did anyone here account for the loss of life in Iraq while Saddam Hussein was charge? Where was the running tally then? Why then do we care about the Iraqi casualties now?

I say " 'was' trying to happen in Iraq" because the American people have turned their backs on Iraq, and by doing so have changed the goal of creating some sembalance of stability in the Middle East. The majority of us have decided that the freedom of Iraq is not worth saving. It is not worth one more American life. Building a free nation in the hatred-filled Middle East is not in our interest.

We have basically given up because we haven't the collective will to try & create something that has the potential to give to another group of people the enjoyment of the basic freedoms that we, today take for granted. I am saddened that we are so myopic.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 06:53 AM
quote:
quote:
Today's updated total:

February deaths - 39
January deaths - 86

Total dead - 3,121

February Iraqi civilian deaths - 568
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802


Do you have any numbers on daily deaths in other wars such as Korea, Vietnam, WWII or WWI?


Im not Ann so please forgive me for trying to answer this.

Korea - Youre talking about a war between industrialized nations, hundreds of thousands of troops on both sides. Not quite the same thing as us in Iraq chasing shadows.

Vietnam - Not only were we fighting another industrialized nation, but also the local population willing to pick up arms against us. Again, not quite the same thing as us in Iraq. The only true comparison I think that can be made between Vietnam and Iraq is that both wars were of our choosing. Incidentally, about 6 months ago, I seem to recall that the deaths in the Iraq war thus far have outpaced the deaths for the first 4-5 years of the Vietnam war. I dont recall where I saw it, but Ill try to find it.

WW2- Now youre comparing Apples and Transmissions. Conservatives would love to legitimize this Iraq problem as similar to WW2 for the romance of it all. If they could get the kind of backing and support that FDR had, they would be heroes. Well, this is a prime example of us being forced into a war and having the support of the people for the resolution of the problem. Wars of choice are never quite as popular. Simply put, again, youre comparing a world war involving millions of people, dozens of nations as well as fully equipped standing armies on all sides to our invasion of Iraq? Not quite the same thing.

WW1 - Im tired of typing, see above.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 07:03 AM
quote:
Nothing wrong with recognizing sacrifice. But spouting numbers does not do that.


Every one of those numbers is a dead human being that didnt need to die.

quote:
You know how you recognize sacrifice? You tell stories of their heroism so we can know what they did, as has been done in every war.


The difference being that the majority of those previous wars were not of choice but force. Sacrifice is defined a bit differently in that way to me. Going to war because you have been bombed and attacked by Japan is far different than choosing to invade a weak nation so you can be a "war president" and impress dad.

quote:
But when numbers are recited they are for one reason, to demoralize the country so that we abandon the effort and make all the sacrifices for nothing.


Yeah, youre right, we shouldnt talk about all the dead people at all and maybe this Iraq disaster will just go away. Shhhh. Unreal.

Sorry, but every single person that backed this war, supported this war or voted for the people running this war are complicit in the deaths of each and every one of those soliders and civilians who died. They should be reminded daily of the hell they have wrought. This war has been about nothing and their sacrifices, unfortunately, are not for the greater good, but for the greater good of some folks.

quote:
Whatever has gone wrong to this point (as happened in all those wars of history) Many of us and many of them don't believe the sacrifice was for nothing. But if we go home in defeat it will be for nothing.


How do you define victory in Iraq? Who do we defeat? Wheres their capitol? Who are the leaders that will sign the surrender papers? At what point is it over? Saying it will be all for nothing is all nice and patriotic, but the reality of the problem is that because the premise for this war was flawed, the only outcome is going to be us leaving either sooner or later but leaving none-the-less. After watching this for 4 years, I dont believe victory as we define it is going to be achieved. We lost this a long time ago.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 07:11 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
But when numbers are recited they are for one reason, to demoralize the country so that we abandon the effort and make all the sacrifices for nothing.


I don't think this is true. First of all, I don't think we can always assume we know why other people do or say things. Secondly, I don't find the numbers demoralizing; I find them sobering, tragic and respectful. And lastly, I think it's disgusting the way the horrific number of Iraqis killed in this invasion has never exactly been front page news, so thank you, ann, for mentioning the numbers that represent mostly civilians--women, children, students, police, marketplace vendors, worshippers...

may they all rest in peace


First of all let me say that I hesitantly jump in this discussion. It is a very volatile & emotionally charged subject. The death of any serviceman (or woman) is a tragedy. Bearing that in mind it is what they decided to volunteer to do. I realize this is comes across as somewhat callous and I don't mean it to be, but the nature of service in the military is to kill the enemy (whoever the state deems so). In that process there will be losses of life. It is the nature of the occupation. Military service is not an extension of the Peace Corps.

I do tend to lean to a different tack than the majority that has been posted on this thread. (Ann, I love you girl & I thank you for your hard work & contributions to this site. It's people like you that makes it feel like family). I feel that the purpose of posting casualties is to express opposition to the operation in Iraq. Plain & simple. And let me say that you have every right to do so. The more people on this planet that realize the real tradedy of war is the suffering of the innocent (and no one should have the right to do so), the better off we will be in the future. Sadly, there are many still that wish nothing but assimilation or annillation of those that do not conform to their beliefs or way of life.

There are losses of life every day in every conceivable fashion. Each & every one of them a tragedy to someone. The reason that drunk driving and smoking are such no-no's in today's society is that groups like MADD started posting statistics on casualties of drunk drivers and the ACS started listing statistics. The American people decided that this was unacceptable. Let's face it, we kill many more on the highways of the US than the last four years in Iraq. We murder each other much more than our casualties in Iraq. In California (an area & population roughly comparible to Iraq) more people die each year from homicide than troop casualties in Iraq, and we blithly accept it.

I don't mean to denigrate the sacrifice of the warriors or make light of each & every death, but I would like to ask another question. Without googling, can anyone state off the top of their head how many American were killed in Iraq in the whole year of 2006? It's about the same as the murder rate of any large city in the US.


You were doing so well up to this point and then it just got silly. Will you guys please, please stop comparing war dead to car crash victims or gang violence victims? It shiats all over what the military does and cheapens their mission by equating them with some guy unlucky enough to be killed by a drunk driver or shot in a robbery. When we are invaded by another country and we are house to house fighting in our major cities, Ill be the first one to join up with you guys in comparing the numbers, but at this point, its APPLES AND ORANGES. Its sad to see otherwise intelligent people spout that nonsense without applying a lick of critical thinking skills. Why dont you just compare our war dead to people with disease? More people die each year from disease than have died in Iraq in all the time we have been there. See how stupid that sounds?

[Edited on 2/11/2007 by SquatchTexas]

 

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Peach Pro



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 07:56 AM
Squatch, your view of the Iraq debacle, is right on the mark.....

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 10:17 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Today's updated total:

February deaths - 39
January deaths - 86

Total dead - 3,121

February Iraqi civilian deaths - 568
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802


Do you have any numbers on daily deaths in other wars such as Korea, Vietnam, WWII or WWI?


Im not Ann so please forgive me for trying to answer this.

Korea - Youre talking about a war between industrialized nations, hundreds of thousands of troops on both sides. Not quite the same thing as us in Iraq chasing shadows.

Vietnam - Not only were we fighting another industrialized nation, but also the local population willing to pick up arms against us. Again, not quite the same thing as us in Iraq. The only true comparison I think that can be made between Vietnam and Iraq is that both wars were of our choosing. Incidentally, about 6 months ago, I seem to recall that the deaths in the Iraq war thus far have outpaced the deaths for the first 4-5 years of the Vietnam war. I dont recall where I saw it, but Ill try to find it.

WW2- Now youre comparing Apples and Transmissions. Conservatives would love to legitimize this Iraq problem as similar to WW2 for the romance of it all. If they could get the kind of backing and support that FDR had, they would be heroes. Well, this is a prime example of us being forced into a war and having the support of the people for the resolution of the problem. Wars of choice are never quite as popular. Simply put, again, youre comparing a world war involving millions of people, dozens of nations as well as fully equipped standing armies on all sides to our invasion of Iraq? Not quite the same thing.

WW1 - Im tired of typing, see above.


One response. I am not a conservative, althoughbased on my views you might consider me one. I do not consider WWII in any way "romantic". It was the most destructive 6 year period in the history of man kind and probably 100 million people died, of which 300,000 were American. Contrary to the views of many, just because we support a war does not mean we like war or consider it "romantic" I am not Teddy Roosevelt. In the words of Robert E. Lee, "It is good that war is so terrible, otherwise we might grow too fond of it."

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 10:46 AM
quote:
One response. I am not a conservative, althoughbased on my views you might consider me one. I do not consider WWII in any way "romantic". It was the most destructive 6 year period in the history of man kind and probably 100 million people died, of which 300,000 were American.


Exactly. So, why then is it compared to Iraq? Its my opinion that WW2 was the last true noble war. Good vs. Evil if you will. We had to win by all means necessary, and ultimately thats what we did.

quote:
Contrary to the views of many, just because we support a war does not mean we like war or consider it "romantic" I am not Teddy Roosevelt. In the words of Robert E. Lee, "It is good that war is so terrible, otherwise we might grow too fond of it."




I agree with you. Unfortunately, those that make the decisions to go to war often have no experience in it and have no idea about the hell they create. Supporting a war is fine as long as the cause is just and attainable. Right now, its neither.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 10:48 AM
quote:
Squatch, your view of the Iraq debacle, is right on the mark.....


Thanks.

 

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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 12:38 PM
I'm glad these numbers have sparked a debate on the issue. I know more Americans are killed each year in their cars, by smoking, heck, probably by choking on an M&M....but this is my small reminder of what's been happening due to what I personally perceive as a war motivated by greed and ego. And although each service man or woman volunteered to serve in the military, that doesn't mean we don't have a responsibility to spend their dedication wisely and I don't believe we've done so.


February deaths - 41
January deaths - 86

Total dead - 3,123
Total wounded - 33, 814

February '07 - 50
January '07 - 631

February Iraqi civilian deaths - 581
January Iraqi civilian deaths -1,802

 

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Peach Master



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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 06:50 PM
They often run photos of service men and women killed in Afghanistan and Iraq at the end of PBS's "The News Hour with Jim Lehrer". Those faces, mostly quite young, look out at you and make the consequences of this war quite vivid.





 

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  posted on 2/11/2007 at 08:13 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
But when numbers are recited they are for one reason, to demoralize the country so that we abandon the effort and make all the sacrifices for nothing.


I don't think this is true. First of all, I don't think we can always assume we know why other people do or say things. Secondly, I don't find the numbers demoralizing; I find them sobering, tragic and respectful. And lastly, I think it's disgusting the way the horrific number of Iraqis killed in this invasion has never exactly been front page news, so thank you, ann, for mentioning the numbers that represent mostly civilians--women, children, students, police, marketplace vendors, worshippers...

may they all rest in peace


First of all let me say that I hesitantly jump in this discussion. It is a very volatile & emotionally charged subject. The death of any serviceman (or woman) is a tragedy. Bearing that in mind it is what they decided to volunteer to do. I realize this is comes across as somewhat callous and I don't mean it to be, but the nature of service in the military is to kill the enemy (whoever the state deems so). In that process there will be losses of life. It is the nature of the occupation. Military service is not an extension of the Peace Corps.

I do tend to lean to a different tack than the majority that has been posted on this thread. (Ann, I love you girl & I thank you for your hard work & contributions to this site. It's people like you that makes it feel like family). I feel that the purpose of posting casualties is to express opposition to the operation in Iraq. Plain & simple. And let me say that you have every right to do so. The more people on this planet that realize the real tradedy of war is the suffering of the innocent (and no one should have the right to do so), the better off we will be in the future. Sadly, there are many still that wish nothing but assimilation or annillation of those that do not conform to their beliefs or way of life.

There are losses of life every day in every conceivable fashion. Each & every one of them a tragedy to someone. The reason that drunk driving and smoking are such no-no's in today's society is that groups like MADD started posting statistics on casualties of drunk drivers and the ACS started listing statistics. The American people decided that this was unacceptable. Let's face it, we kill many more on the highways of the US than the last four years in Iraq. We murder each other much more than our casualties in Iraq. In California (an area & population roughly comparible to Iraq) more people die each year from homicide than troop casualties in Iraq, and we blithly accept it.

I don't mean to denigrate the sacrifice of the warriors or make light of each & every death, but I would like to ask another question. Without googling, can anyone state off the top of their head how many American were killed in Iraq in the whole year of 2006? It's about the same as the murder rate of any large city in the US.


You were doing so well up to this point and then it just got silly. Will you guys please, please stop comparing war dead to car crash victims or gang violence victims? It shiats all over what the military does and cheapens their mission by equating them with some guy unlucky enough to be killed by a drunk driver or shot in a robbery. When we are invaded by another country and we are house to house fighting in our major cities, Ill be the first one to join up with you guys in comparing the numbers, but at this point, its APPLES AND ORANGES. Its sad to see otherwise intelligent people spout that nonsense without applying a lick of critical thinking skills. Why dont you just compare our war dead to people with disease? More people die each year from disease than have died in Iraq in all the time we have been there. See how stupid that sounds?

[Edited on 2/11/2007 by SquatchTexas]


Get down off your so sanctimonious high horse SqTex. And spare me, "I'll be the first to join" rap. Your chest may get hurt from beating in it. The whole point of the excersize of this thread is it make an issue of the numbers of dead in Iraq. Numbers mean nothng unless they are comparable to other numbers. I'ts just like your Big Oil profits whine. A&O's, right? You obviously have a problem with people that make a different point than you have, 'cause you pull this bait & switch line out every time. As I said before, it's not even good hi school debate team stuff. Your MoveOn.Org schtick is getting old. This threads about Numbers of dead, get it?

Ann strives to make an issue of the numbers because to her (& others here) they are unacceptable. She makes a valid point. To others, particularly our Government and those that join the military, they are acceptable. As I posted above it's the military's job to kill & be killed. I hold the value of their dying much higher than someone getting killed by drinking & driving. They volunteer to put themselves in harm's way. They are held in the highest regard. So spare me your 'shait'ing on the military crap.


 

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