Thread: What Was The Problem WIth Dan?

dougrhon - 11/20/2005 at 04:38 AM

I am curious as to what the problem with Dan Toler was in the ABB so that he was not invited to return in 1989 when the band re-formed. Since he is a terrific guitar player who continued to do good work with both Gregg and Dickey what was the trouble? Is it the fact that he was not a slide player thereby forcing Dickey to play the Duane slide parts? Was he not a dynamic enoughg improviser? I have never heard him play live so I am genuinely curious. I think his playing on "I'm No Angel" is very elegant and understated but that might not have been right for the ABB. In any event, I think most agree that Warren Hayne's slide ability freed Dickey to do what he does best when the band reformed.

Doug


scotiadave - 11/20/2005 at 09:34 AM



I think Dan got a rough deal - but dem's de breaks i spose - i always loved his playing - and i didn't think it was fair for Scott freeman to say in his book :- "Dan Toler played in a style that was largeley a poor man's imitation of Dickey Betts" - And Freeman claims to be a player himself! watch Toler on the Cannery video from 88 (greg band) - and he's smokin - such control, superb tone and, not one Dickey lick in evidence, i learnt a lot from this video, i've worn it out studying it . FREEMAN OUTSIDE!!!!! :-D

I hate to say it - but give me Toler over Betts any-day.


dougrhon - 11/20/2005 at 03:02 PM

quote:


I think Dan got a rough deal - but dem's de breaks i spose - i always loved his playing - and i didn't think it was fair for Scott freeman to say in his book :- "Dan Toler played in a style that was largeley a poor man's imitation of Dickey Betts" - And Freeman claims to be a player himself! watch Toler on the Cannery video from 88 (greg band) - and he's smokin - such control, superb tone and, not one Dickey lick in evidence, i learnt a lot from this video, i've worn it out studying it . FREEMAN OUTSIDE!!!!! :-D

I hate to say it - but give me Toler over Betts any-day.


Well you compare him to Betts so he may not be a por man's Betts but you agree he plays a similar style? At least to the extnet of not being a slide player? Obviously at that point they were not going to expellDickey Betts so if the sound was hurt, I guess Dan had to go in favor of a real slide player like Warren Haynes. Is this right?

Doug


scotiadave - 11/21/2005 at 12:10 AM



True - i didn't consider that, hmmmmmmmmm so did Toler NEVER play slide > gonna go tape trawling now .........

:-)


scotiadave - 11/21/2005 at 12:14 AM

quote:
quote:


(but you agree he plays a similar style?) - in the way that Peter Green and Allman would compare. " different bags.....same color.


porkchopbob - 11/21/2005 at 05:57 PM

If you listen to Enlightened Rogues, Dan sounds a lot like Dickey. He may not have by the time the 89 reunion came around, but he never really lit a fire under Dickey when he was in the fold. Even the last couple years in Great Southern, Dan proved that he isn't a very good compliment to Dickey - lay off the whammy bar, pal.

Besides Dickey and Warren were already playing together in the Dickey Betts Band so it was probably Dickey's call. And it was a damned good one.


scotiadave - 11/21/2005 at 07:42 PM



i hate whammy bars.


dougrhon - 11/22/2005 at 04:50 AM

quote:
If you listen to Enlightened Rogues, Dan sounds a lot like Dickey. He may not have by the time the 89 reunion came around, but he never really lit a fire under Dickey when he was in the fold. Even the last couple years in Great Southern, Dan proved that he isn't a very good compliment to Dickey - lay off the whammy bar, pal.

Besides Dickey and Warren were already playing together in the Dickey Betts Band so it was probably Dickey's call. And it was a damned good one.


For what it's worth: Midnight Riders says that Chuck Leavell, who was considering returning, said he would do so only if the Toler brothers did not return.

Doug


EddieP - 12/2/2005 at 10:12 PM

Dan did sound an awful lot like Dickey back then. They both played a Les Paul at the time...Dan did not play any slide at all and I'm sure that was a factor...Plus the fact Warren had just toured with The Dickey Betts Band and the chemistry was excellent obviously.

All I know is, it sure worked out for the best. WE got Warren in The ABB in 1989 and it was arguably the best post-Duane move they ever made. Don't ask me what the 2nd best post-Duane move was...thats a whole other can of worms.


gina - 12/5/2005 at 07:35 PM

quote:


I think Dan got a rough deal - but dem's de breaks i spose - i always loved his playing - and i didn't think it was fair for Scott freeman to say in his book :- "Dan Toler played in a style that was largeley a poor man's imitation of Dickey Betts" - And Freeman claims to be a player himself! watch Toler on the Cannery video from 88 (greg band) - and he's smokin - such control, superb tone and, not one Dickey lick in evidence, i learnt a lot from this video, i've worn it out studying it . FREEMAN OUTSIDE!!!!! :-D

I hate to say it - but give me Toler over Betts any-day.


but I do love Dan's playing too.


gina - 12/5/2005 at 07:36 PM

quote:


i hate whammy bars.


What about wa-wa pedals?


roccarocca - 12/13/2005 at 12:14 PM

i think dan gets blamed for that not so wonderful era ,but to my ears he saved 'em . he was kickin' dickie's butt nightly if you saw this lineup you know what i mean, much the same on the hof dvd butstep away from the whammy bar


MartinD28 - 12/23/2005 at 11:54 PM

quote:

For what it's worth: Midnight Riders says that Chuck Leavell, who was considering returning, said he would do so only if the Toler brothers did not return.




Yeah, I think I read that & have heard that before. Would be interested if Chuck really stated that. If the answer is "yes"...well I can only say that Dan is a much much better player than Keith Richards who Chuck plays with these days. However, in all fairness, Chuck's role is as a support player in the Stones. He just works his magic while Keith & Mick play front guys.


dougrhon - 1/20/2006 at 04:32 AM

quote:
quote:

For what it's worth: Midnight Riders says that Chuck Leavell, who was considering returning, said he would do so only if the Toler brothers did not return.




Yeah, I think I read that & have heard that before. Would be interested if Chuck really stated that. If the answer is "yes"...well I can only say that Dan is a much much better player than Keith Richards who Chuck plays with these days. However, in all fairness, Chuck's role is as a support player in the Stones. He just works his magic while Keith & Mick play front guys.


In its context, the passage indicates that Chuck wanted the original band, not the Toler Brothers. At the very least this certainly meant he wanted Jaimoe back in and perhaps Dan would not have returned in that case. But there is no indication that Chuck's problem was with Dan specifically as a player and, indeed, both Gregg and Dickey continued to play with him. I think the real problem and one that Chuck noticed is that the Allman's needed a firey slide player who would challenge Dickey. Warren fit the bill in 1989 and of course was so much more than a guitar player for that band.

Doug


scotiadave - 1/21/2006 at 07:54 AM

quote:
quote:


i hate whammy bars.


What about wa-wa pedals?


I love wah-wahs now, they are allowed


Haisija - 1/21/2006 at 10:55 AM

Dickey...whammy bar attached to a goldtop, opened up for the GAB in Overland Park, Kansas the year of the Giants/Broncos Superbowl, Superbowl night in the Glenwood Manor Hotel Ballroom. GA had not released I'm No Angel Yet. Dickey's band played ' Further On Down The Road." Whammy bar being used by Dickey in this blues shuffle and it seemed odd.
Dickey, same show, wha wha pedal malfunction. Poor pedal. It won't malfunction again.
I'm on front row, its hot in this place, I tell Dan who was playing in GAB, he gets ice cold can of Coke for me during encore break. Harmonica player gives me one of Dan's picks, Fender medium, tortise shell pattern. Kind gesture, didn't even ask for one . Thank you gentelmen. Only pick I had for a long time because I quit using them for about 5 or 6 years. Dan's playing was outstanding.
Giant jam at the end GAB and DBB...crowd goes friggin bonkers.
Some guy right by me kept yelling "Pegasus" in my left ear. My ears hurt already from standing head level front row direct line of fire to Dickey's Marshall.


Haisija - 1/21/2006 at 11:01 AM

Cool photo scotiadave.


scotiadave - 1/27/2006 at 11:29 AM



Chars


nitelite51 - 3/3/2006 at 02:19 PM

quote:


i hate whammy bars.


I thought Jimi Hendrix did some fair to middlin things with the whammy.


johnwott - 3/30/2006 at 04:16 AM

quote:
If you listen to Enlightened Rogues, Dan sounds a lot like Dickey. He may not have by the time the 89 reunion came around, but he never really lit a fire under Dickey when he was in the fold. Even the last couple years in Great Southern, Dan proved that he isn't a very good compliment to Dickey - lay off the whammy bar, pal.


I firmly disagree.

Dan ripped it up in Great Southern the last few years.

And was a much better fit than Mark May.

The reason he's not in great southern anymore is that he would blow Mr. Betts off the stage
night after night.

IMHO

Peace
John


scotiadave - 3/30/2006 at 10:03 AM



Yup !! :-D


Stephen - 3/31/2006 at 04:01 PM

I thought Dickey & Dan were a lot more simpatico in the new-millennium Great Southern than in the late 70s-early 80s -- they did sound too much alike back then IMO. They always smoked & were an awesome tandem, but the change in tone from Gibson to Fender raised the bar even more IMO from 2001-05. What they did was as great as what Warren & Derek do, IN TERMS OF THEIR SOUND, LISTENING TO EACH OTHER & PLAYING AS A BAND -- not trying to blow the other off the stage.


johnwott - 4/13/2006 at 02:15 AM

quote:
IN TERMS OF THEIR SOUND, LISTENING TO EACH OTHER & PLAYING AS A BAND -- not trying to blow the other off the stage.


Not saying that was the intent

Just the outcome.

Dan had his A game a lot more than Dickey.

IMO


srvsfender - 5/26/2006 at 10:03 PM

I've seen Great Southern a few times.I've met Dicky and Dan.Very gracious men.I feel that Dan is a hard working guitarist.The man puts his heart and soul out there every night(saw them two nights in a row in upstate New York).He is a great guitarist.Comparing him to Dicky is a little unfair.I feel you have to compare them at their "best".If your doing that then Dicky blows most guitarists away including Dan.Having said that...Dan blows a LOT of guitarists away at his best.Warren is a completely different animal.Different than Duane...different than Derek and in fact different than most slide players in ...well....history.He kicks the guitars ass in a way.As far as whammy....one name comes to mind...David Gilmore..nuff said....and I love the Waa Waa...Clapton..and Frampton did it justice.Well thanks for listening.


Charlesinator - 7/15/2006 at 09:29 PM

quote:
quote:
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For what it's worth: Midnight Riders says that Chuck Leavell, who was considering returning, said he would do so only if the Toler brothers did not return.


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Yeah, I think I read that & have heard that before. Would be interested if Chuck really stated that. If the answer is "yes"...well I can only say that Dan is a much much better player than Keith Richards who Chuck plays with these days. However, in all fairness, Chuck's role is as a support player in the Stones. He just works his magic while Keith & Mick play front guys.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



In its context, the passage indicates that Chuck wanted the original band, not the Toler Brothers. At the very least this certainly meant he wanted Jaimoe back in and perhaps Dan would not have returned in that case. But there is no indication that Chuck's problem was with Dan specifically as a player and, indeed, both Gregg and Dickey continued to play with him. I think the real problem and one that Chuck noticed is that the Allman's needed a firey slide player who would challenge Dickey. Warren fit the bill in 1989 and of course was so much more than a guitar player for that band.

Doug


My recollection of the Midnight Riders book was that Chuck would return "only" if the band was the way the Brothers And Sisters era was i.e. one guitarist-Dickey and essentially one keyboardist-Chuck as the chief melodic improvisors and ....Chuck probably requested a bigger stake in the financial pie. And the ABB financial pie in 89 was just about slim and none and slim was in the process of leaving town. Chuck was riding high with Clapton and just beginning his association with the Stones which were both probably much more lucrative than a side man gig with the ABB. Really a no-brainer on Chuck's part.

As for the ABB choosing between the Toler Brothers and the Haynes/Woody combination, in all likelyhood financial reasons were probsably the primary motivating factor as well. Both Toler Bro's having been ABB member previously as well as GAB members since the ABB folded, probably were trying to negociate for a bigger slice of the pie which would only seem reasonable and legitiment especially in DDT's case, having been Gregg's band member and songwriting foil since the break up. Warren and Allen were essentially hired guns at a price well below the asking price of Chuck and Dan. Secondarily factoring into the band's decision was maybe Dan's insistance that his brother be included in a package deal? Also the obvious rapport established between Dickey and Warren from working on the Dickey Betts Band album may have been something Dickey wanted to persue more than returning a partnership with Dan. Let's see Warren can sing, write, pick and play slide at a price less than what Dan may be asking ........... Hmmmm?

Essentially it's just a business decision like not playing Charlotte this year.


geronimocrowe - 9/28/2006 at 10:23 PM

man, the truth is Warren & Woody were the best people for the band at that time...I mean, I know DDT is a badass, but Warren is AMAZING!


dadof2boys - 10/7/2006 at 11:24 PM

never liked dan's playing--but the reason is fairly obvious--warren is a better guitarist & he is multi-talented--also there is a correlation between the ABB lineup with dan & the reality that the ABB WERE CLEARLY AT THEIR WORST WITH DAN,FRANKIE, & Rook--i saw the ABB a bunch of times during that period, & in addition to playing too loud the music was inferior.


Charlesinator - 12/4/2006 at 04:55 PM

quote:
never liked dan's playing--but the reason is fairly obvious--warren is a better guitarist & he is multi-talented--also there is a correlation between the ABB lineup with dan & the reality that the ABB WERE CLEARLY AT THEIR WORST WITH DAN,FRANKIE, & Rook--i saw the ABB a bunch of times during that period, & in addition to playing too loud the music was inferior.



Dad got to disagree with you on this post. Enlightened Rogues is one of my favorite Allman Brothers CD's and not all the shows were bad. At least not the one I saw in 79 nor the ones from the Brothers Of The Road videos. If in fact the Allmans were clearly at their worst, Gregg and Arista Records should shoulder more of the blame than Dan, Frankie and Rook. (What about the guy with the Keytar?) And I always liked Rook's playing. I personally feel Rook is overlooked and underappreciated for his talents. Also Dan has undergone an extensive elvolution as a guitarist. Way for the better IMO. If you didn't happen to catch him with GS, check out the site for his new project TGZ on my space. Again I believe the decision to go with Warren and Woody was for a change and probably price was the biggest factor in the decision.


dadof2boys - 12/4/2006 at 05:25 PM

Charlesinator---i will check it out on dan's site----but rook,to my ears was a disco player,dan was a poor man's dickey lite,& frank was a mess of sound----not to say the rest of the band was in good musical shape in those times----please read my last post on the duane thread re: flat playing----you'll see i truly enjoy these "debates"---but,while some songs were good, the concerts were not much more to me than a jumble of noise----when i saw dan with dickey or gregg in the early/mid eighties i can't say i heard dan any differently,although the noise wasn't as omnipresent---& i do recall a synthesizer in there at live shows & that total sound drove me away from the ABB from 1981-1989---glad they are back & that i jumped on the bus---but please,no mre late70's/early 80's ABB for me!!!!!


dadof2boys - 12/4/2006 at 06:04 PM

just listened to some tgz with dan on my space---yes,dan sounds better---but to me,he is still in a different league than derek,warren,dickey,jack,etc..............i tried!!


blueskyJohnson - 12/6/2006 at 11:41 PM

quote:
just listened to some tgz with dan on my space---yes,dan sounds better---but to me,he is still in a different league than derek,warren,dickey,jack,etc..............i tried!!


I have to honestly say in the late seventies early eighties I wasn't to keen on Dan but have you gotten a chance to hear Dan with Dickey the past few years? To me, it was totally different! In a good way. Dan didn't even seem like he was the same player. I love his playing now. He is much better now in my opinion. If you want, I can dig up a real good show I have with him playing with Dickey and send you a copy.


dadof2boys - 12/7/2006 at 11:15 PM

bluesky---check your PM


dadof2boys - 12/16/2006 at 10:16 AM

listened to a dan show from recent dickey tour & when i'm wrong,i'm really wrong----dan's developed a new sound & tone which sound quite nice...........


bluesky12 - 2/28/2007 at 11:22 PM

quote:


I hate to say it - but give me Toler over Betts any-day.


you are a fool.


hotlantatim - 5/10/2007 at 03:19 AM

Charlsinator.....I don't think your recollection of details presented Midnight Riders is correct. Chuck was part of the original conversations about reuniting in 1989. Chuck had played with the band on a couple occasions when they reunited for charity gigs in 1986. If ithere was going to be another reunion, he didn't want it to be the Arista years all over again, in that he wanted hard-core ABB. I never read or heard where he wanted a one guitar lineup, though.

However, Chuck had not played with Clapton at this point and had started his association with the Stones 7 years prior. The original 4 didn't include him in some conversations. Meanwhile, the Stones called during this time and were headed back out on the road in 1989 so he took a very lucrative "bird in the hand" and went with them. On the next Stones break after that tour, he hooked up with Clapton.

In the end, I think it was the fact that Warren & Dickey were already playing together again, plus the fact that they wanted to distance themsevles from the early 80s that left Dan sitting on the sidelines.

Dan did continue to play some with Gregg on his solo dates in the early 90s.

And as great as the Woody/Warren years were, I can only fathom how cool it would have been to have Warren, Woody AND Chuck with the original four in 1989......Oh Welll. At least we get semi-regular Chuck guest appearances over the past 6 years.


JustinMcCorkle - 10/13/2007 at 07:01 AM

Wow, how do I begin? Dan, Dickey, Warren.........all simply put, BIG influences on my playing. I didn't know a whole lot about Dan's tenure with ABB. I was born in 76 ya'll boys take it easy on me. I did have the good fortune of playing a show this past weekend with Dan. He is one amazing guitar player. I play a LP 90% of the time, the other 10% I play a hot rodded Strat. (EMG's, active electronics etc) Dan can flat put a whoopin' on a strat in this day and time I can tell you that. I never heard him hit a whammy bar (not my favorite I take them off and chunk them) and he flat out burned that son of a gun up. Now whether or not he's a "better" player than Dickey, Warren, or Derek........I couldn't make that call. They are all somewhat distinct in this day and time. I couldn't pick one I'd rather hear....LOL!!!! Dan is a good guy, and can get one heluva tone out of a Fender guitar. As a matter of fact he played through my Hot Rod Deluxe amp the other night. I just couldn't quite get it to sound exactly like Dan did. I couldn't figure out why, then it hit me..............oh yeah! He's a heluva lot better guitar player than me. LOL!!!!!!!!!! I could listen to Dickey, Dan, Warren or Derek all day. I couldn't pick one out of that bunch. What great musicians.


tranetracks - 10/13/2007 at 09:16 AM

I really hate to say it, but Dan Toler is sort of a hack. His whammy bar antics are just awful. He plays with no harmonic sophistication and barely a sense of melody. He just seems to go for sound, the screaming Fender sound. For me, he is all flash. There is little substance in what he does. Sure he can play fast pentatonics. Thats fantastic. So can a lot of people. He had no voice, no eloquence, and in my mind little musicality.


Stephen - 10/13/2007 at 02:54 PM

quote:
Wow, how do I begin? Dan, Dickey, Warren.........all simply put, BIG influences on my playing. I didn't know a whole lot about Dan's tenure with ABB. I was born in 76 ya'll boys take it easy on me. I did have the good fortune of playing a show this past weekend with Dan. He is one amazing guitar player. I play a LP 90% of the time, the other 10% I play a hot rodded Strat. (EMG's, active electronics etc) Dan can flat put a whoopin' on a strat in this day and time I can tell you that. I never heard him hit a whammy bar (not my favorite I take them off and chunk them) and he flat out burned that son of a gun up. Now whether or not he's a "better" player than Dickey, Warren, or Derek........I couldn't make that call. They are all somewhat distinct in this day and time. I couldn't pick one I'd rather hear....LOL!!!! Dan is a good guy, and can get one heluva tone out of a Fender guitar. As a matter of fact he played through my Hot Rod Deluxe amp the other night. I just couldn't quite get it to sound exactly like Dan did. I couldn't figure out why, then it hit me..............oh yeah! He's a heluva lot better guitar player than me. LOL!!!!!!!!!! I could listen to Dickey, Dan, Warren or Derek all day. I couldn't pick one out of that bunch. What great musicians.



Great post Justin -- never heard Dan's playing when I didn't totally dig what he was doing -- whether with the ABB, his 1970s and 2001-04 tenures with DB & GS, his playing with Gregg -- one stellar musician -- kinda wish he had stuck around with DB&GS, his & Dickey's chemistry I thought was real special -- same with the Enlightened Rogues era, a lineup that IMO gets tomatoes thrown at it undeservedly -- if Dan had the Fender then that he used with Dickey later on -- well it's an interesting thought anyway...
I wonder what his band Melting Pot sounded like -- smokin' I'd have to believe


mbh - 1/3/2008 at 12:40 AM

Dan is a very underatted player. yeah he sounded like Dickey, due to the fact that they both played Les Pauls. Fact is, Toler played circles around betts, dexterity wise. Listen to some of his playing on Gregg's 2 mid-80's solo albums. Strip away that production sheen and there's definitely someone playin there.


D28guy - 1/14/2008 at 08:56 AM

quote:
"Dad got to disagree with you on this post. Enlightened Rogues is one of my favorite Allman Brothers CD's"


Enlightened Rogues is a smokin', smokin', SMOKIN' ABB album. They were truly "hittin the note" in a LARGE way during those sessions. So unlike the 2 records that came after with Arista.

The band was renewed, enthusiastic and happy again, and Tom Dowd was at the controls.

Hard to improve on that!

Its just a shame that Capricorn records folded after ER and Arista was allowed to almost ruin the group after that.


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