Thread: Obama World's Most Respected Leader

bigann - 4/25/2010 at 01:03 AM

I personally think it's a good thing Obama is respected in parts of the world.

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/poll-finds-president-obama-is-worlds-m ost-respected-leader/19452443?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F% 2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fworld%2Farticle%2Fpoll-finds-president-obama-is-worlds- most-respected-leader%2F19452443


skyponydogboy - 4/26/2010 at 08:16 PM

Is this a joke?


bigann - 4/26/2010 at 08:23 PM

nope.


ScottyVII - 4/27/2010 at 03:59 PM

Obama is weak sister plain and simple! We've lost Ukraine as an ally and now they are back under the thumb of KGB run Russia. Not to mention he has made a fool of himself and embarrassed this country by bending over--excuse me bowing-- to regal figures which is the most un-American act I can think of. I guess he got a lot of practice while he served as a paid man servant on the dirty down low while in college. That was his other job when he wasn't dealing coke.


emr - 4/27/2010 at 04:25 PM

It is clear that the poll didn't include Israel.

and, not on an inmflamatory basis, how did past presidents rate in similar polls? Anyone know?


jim - 4/27/2010 at 04:28 PM

quote:
I knew this one would be impossible for the lunatics to resist


I wouldnt' call Scotty a lunatic, but rather someone who has put his life on the line for this country. We all have our opinions.


Rydethwind - 4/27/2010 at 04:33 PM

Typical , in the instant world, well when Obama has been around for awhile and really does something to be respected i will say good for him and tip my hat to him untill then he is just another small fish in a big pond being pushed arouns by all the other fish..


dougrhon - 4/27/2010 at 05:02 PM

quote:
It is clear that the poll didn't include Israel.

and, not on an inmflamatory basis, how did past presidents rate in similar polls? Anyone know?


It didn't include the United States either


bigann - 4/27/2010 at 05:07 PM

Did you even read the article? Second paragraph from the top:

"Released today by France 24 and Radio France Internationale, the Harris Interactive Poll asked 6,135 adults between the ages of 16 and 64 who live in the United States, Britain, France, Italy, Germany or Spain to name their favorite world leaders."


Peachypetewi - 4/27/2010 at 06:51 PM

It is good to see other countries actually respect our President again especially after living throughr 6 years of Bush 2 always being the most hated world leader.


bigann - 4/27/2010 at 07:00 PM

quote:
It is good to see other countries actually respect our President again especially after living throughr 6 years of Bush 2 always being the most hated world leader.


My thoughts exactly!!!


dougrhon - 4/27/2010 at 07:11 PM

quote:
Did you even read the article? Second paragraph from the top:

"Released today by France 24 and Radio France Internationale, the Harris Interactive Poll asked 6,135 adults between the ages of 16 and 64 who live in the United States, Britain, France, Italy, Germany or Spain to name their favorite world leaders."



I must confess I didn't read the article carefully but enough polls here show he is not quite that popular within the United States. Of course the question is their "favorite" world leader not whether they approve of Obama. So compared to the other world leaders he might still be their "favorite" world leader say as compared to Putin or Gordon Brown etc.


dougrhon - 4/27/2010 at 07:12 PM

quote:
It is good to see other countries actually respect our President again especially after living throughr 6 years of Bush 2 always being the most hated world leader.


Do you really think he was the most hated. More hated than the leader of North Korea, Iran and all the other despotic dictatorships? If so do you really think such opinion should mean that much?


bigann - 4/27/2010 at 07:18 PM

I'd venture to guess that among the six countries polled for this topic, Bush may well indeed have been the most 'hated' by the people at that time.


sixty8 - 4/27/2010 at 07:45 PM

quote:
quote:
It is good to see other countries actually respect our President again especially after living throughr 6 years of Bush 2 always being the most hated world leader.


Do you really think he was the most hated. More hated than the leader of North Korea, Iran and all the other despotic dictatorships? If so do you really think such opinion should mean that much?


Bush would certainly be at the top of the list after the crazies like North Korea, Iran and so on. Personally, in this regard I find Obama to be very refreshing. I had gotten so sick of watching Bush embarrass us and alienate so many countries, many of whom were our allies.


Peachypetewi - 4/27/2010 at 07:54 PM

quote:
quote:
It is good to see other countries actually respect our President again especially after living throughr 6 years of Bush 2 always being the most hated world leader.


Do you really think he was the most hated. More hated than the leader of North Korea, Iran and all the other despotic dictatorships? If so do you really think such opinion should mean that much?


North Korea's leader is the worst no doubt. Even China thinks he's crazy.

But W. did alienate an awful lot of people throughout the world. Cheney and him did tremendous damage to our reputation world wide.

[Edited on 4/27/2010 by Peachypetewi]


DerekFromCincinnati - 4/27/2010 at 10:29 PM

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
I knew this one would be impossible for the lunatics to resist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----



I wouldnt' call Scotty a lunatic, but rather someone who has put his life on the line for this country. We all have our opinions.




True dat, although you have to remember that for many on the Left, serving as Scotty did is enough to call him those names.


dougrhon - 4/28/2010 at 12:15 AM

quote:
I'd venture to guess that among the six countries polled for this topic, Bush may well indeed have been the most 'hated' by the people at that time.


And that is why the opinion of the people of these countries means absolutely nothing to me.


mbtogo4 - 4/28/2010 at 12:33 AM

quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


Patriots - 4/28/2010 at 12:35 AM

since when is six countries "the world"?


Vanistheman - 4/28/2010 at 01:45 AM


These countries reflect some of the most well-educated countries of the world. The poll likely netted a good percentage of educated people in the process. Obama is an educated person who behaves like one with respect to diplomatic issues. He has made strides with agreements with Russia despite a backslide in relations there in recent years. He has continued to be firm with N. Korea and Iran while working with the global community on these concerns. He has also pushed Israel to be accountable for it's role in peace efforts in disputed areas, while showing his support for their sovereignty. And he has also pressed Pakistan more firmly on the issues along the Afghan border. Respectful diplomacy that seeks to find solutions to worldly concerns does not equal "bending over" for other nations or getting "pushed around." The reputation of the USA is important for economic reasons as well as national security reasons. Just because Obama doesn't choose to alienate foreign leaders with cowboy antics and religiously righteous rhetoric, doesn't mean our military has suddenly gone soft or that our nation's resolve to stand behind what is right has lessened. Educated people around the "world" recognize this. I won't use the word "lunatic", but let's say the ignorant people of this nation likely helped the polls too, because the anti-Obama crowd would never pick a non-American world leader for anything!!


brofan - 4/28/2010 at 03:20 AM

"International Law? What's that?" - George Bush


Peachypetewi - 4/28/2010 at 03:57 PM

quote:
quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


I find his lack of arrogance and respectful demeaner towards other world leaders very refreshing coming off of 8 years of numb nuts cowboy diplomacy by Cheney and Bush.


Peachypetewi - 4/28/2010 at 03:58 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


I find his lack of arrogance and respectful demeaner towards other world leaders very refreshing coming off of 8 years of numb nuts rogue cowboy diplomacy by Cheney and Bush.


alloak41 - 4/28/2010 at 04:20 PM

Choo Choo Coleman was the most respected leader on the '62 Mets.


dougrhon - 4/28/2010 at 05:56 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


I find his lack of arrogance and respectful demeaner towards other world leaders very refreshing coming off of 8 years of numb nuts cowboy diplomacy by Cheney and Bush.


Actually I feel the exact opposite. Bush was always kind and decent towards the leaders of other nations whether you agree with his policies or not. I frankly can't think of a single instance when on a personal level he displayed arrogance towards other nations. I realize this is a commonly held belief but I can't think of an instance. Obama has shown himself to be arrogant bordering on inappropriate with a number of close allies.


LUKE - 4/28/2010 at 07:14 PM

lmfao
What do ya think the media woulda done if Bush had atteneded a church for 20 years ran by David Duke?Bout the same damm thing as Hussein Obama & Jerimiah Wright i'd say.
GOD DAMM AMERICA


sixty8 - 4/28/2010 at 07:31 PM

quote:

These countries reflect some of the most well-educated countries of the world. The poll likely netted a good percentage of educated people in the process. Obama is an educated person who behaves like one with respect to diplomatic issues. He has made strides with agreements with Russia despite a backslide in relations there in recent years. He has continued to be firm with N. Korea and Iran while working with the global community on these concerns. He has also pushed Israel to be accountable for it's role in peace efforts in disputed areas, while showing his support for their sovereignty. And he has also pressed Pakistan more firmly on the issues along the Afghan border. Respectful diplomacy that seeks to find solutions to worldly concerns does not equal "bending over" for other nations or getting "pushed around." The reputation of the USA is important for economic reasons as well as national security reasons. Just because Obama doesn't choose to alienate foreign leaders with cowboy antics and religiously righteous rhetoric, doesn't mean our military has suddenly gone soft or that our nation's resolve to stand behind what is right has lessened. Educated people around the "world" recognize this. I won't use the word "lunatic", but let's say the ignorant people of this nation likely helped the polls too, because the anti-Obama crowd would never pick a non-American world leader for anything!!


Excellent post!


DerekFromCincinnati - 4/28/2010 at 07:45 PM

These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


sixty8 - 4/28/2010 at 08:03 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


I find his lack of arrogance and respectful demeaner towards other world leaders very refreshing coming off of 8 years of numb nuts cowboy diplomacy by Cheney and Bush.


Actually I feel the exact opposite. Bush was always kind and decent towards the leaders of other nations whether you agree with his policies or not. I frankly can't think of a single instance when on a personal level he displayed arrogance towards other nations. I realize this is a commonly held belief but I can't think of an instance. Obama has shown himself to be arrogant bordering on inappropriate with a number of close allies.


Bush/Cheney alienated everyone when they went and invaded Iraq against the wishes of all of those countries. We had the whole world backing us up on the war on terror when we were fighting against the people who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan. Once Bush and his cronies started their unnecessary and unwarranted invasion of Iraq they totally lost respect of all of the countries who disagreed, and that was 99% of them. Everyone else were right in that case and we were wrong. It was an arrogant and stupid thing to do IMO. They basically told the whole world, F#CK YOU, we're gonna do what we want whether you all like it or not! From that point on we lost the respect of just about everyone. That is where Bush/Cheney showed an immense amount of arrogance IMO. It may not have been personally directed at any one leader but it was collectively directed at almost everyone which is even worse IMO.

I'm still waiting for all of the WMDs to be discovered and the Iraqis to be showering us with candy and flowers.

IMO Obama has been far, far superior to Bush/Cheney as far as foreign policy goes. The only problem I have seen at all is the slight bickering between us and Israel which I think will pass without problem. Although we have each pi$$ed each other off lately leaders from both countries have gone out of their way to point out that we are still allies in every way.

[Edited on 4/28/2010 by sixty8]


Peachypetewi - 4/28/2010 at 08:11 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


I find his lack of arrogance and respectful demeaner towards other world leaders very refreshing coming off of 8 years of numb nuts cowboy diplomacy by Cheney and Bush.


Actually I feel the exact opposite. Bush was always kind and decent towards the leaders of other nations whether you agree with his policies or not. I frankly can't think of a single instance when on a personal level he displayed arrogance towards other nations. I realize this is a commonly held belief but I can't think of an instance. Obama has shown himself to be arrogant bordering on inappropriate with a number of close allies.


Well if you ignore the UN dog and pony show where he marched Colin Powell up there to decieve every world leader into thinking Sadaam had WMD's then yes I see your point.


alanwoods - 4/28/2010 at 08:14 PM

And algore might have been president if he could've won his own state.


brofan - 4/28/2010 at 08:19 PM

quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


DerekFromCincinnati - 4/28/2010 at 08:30 PM

quote:
I'm still waiting for all of the WMDs to be discovered and the Iraqis to be showering us with candy and flowers.



You realize that Iraq just elected a pro-American leader, right??


quote:
Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.





Absolutely not. It may be in hiatus while Obama is in office because he doesn't believe in American exceptionalism, but like the scenario when Jimmah Carter was in office and the 'malaise' attitude of this country at the time and the view that we weren't relevant in the world, that changed with the leader known as Ronald Reagan who actually knew why America was great, reinvigorated the country and blatantly was clear on America being the driving force for freedom and democracy in the world. Read Soviet freedom fighter Natan Sharansky and Polish anti-communist freedom fighter Lech Walesa's views on Reagan's role and you'll learn more.

quote:
I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.


See above. Iraq at least has a chance for some form of democracy, which has already had positive affects in the region as those in Iran and elsewhere want similarly open elections, and Iraq just elected a pro-American leader.

Are you saying that we lost in Iraq??


brofan - 4/28/2010 at 08:51 PM

quote:
quote:
I'm still waiting for all of the WMDs to be discovered and the Iraqis to be showering us with candy and flowers.



You realize that Iraq just elected a pro-American leader, right??


quote:
Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.





Absolutely not. It may be in hiatus while Obama is in office because he doesn't believe in American exceptionalism, but like the scenario when Jimmah Carter was in office and the 'malaise' attitude of this country at the time and the view that we weren't relevant in the world, that changed with the leader known as Ronald Reagan who actually knew why America was great, reinvigorated the country and blatantly was clear on America being the driving force for freedom and democracy in the world. Read Soviet freedom fighter Natan Sharansky and Polish anti-communist freedom fighter Lech Walesa's views on Reagan's role and you'll learn more.

quote:
I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.


See above. Iraq at least has a chance for some form of democracy, which has already had positive affects in the region as those in Iran and elsewhere want similarly open elections, and Iraq just elected a pro-American leader.

Are you saying that we lost in Iraq??


Yes. Without question.


dougrhon - 4/28/2010 at 09:09 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


I find his lack of arrogance and respectful demeaner towards other world leaders very refreshing coming off of 8 years of numb nuts cowboy diplomacy by Cheney and Bush.


Actually I feel the exact opposite. Bush was always kind and decent towards the leaders of other nations whether you agree with his policies or not. I frankly can't think of a single instance when on a personal level he displayed arrogance towards other nations. I realize this is a commonly held belief but I can't think of an instance. Obama has shown himself to be arrogant bordering on inappropriate with a number of close allies.


Bush/Cheney alienated everyone when they went and invaded Iraq against the wishes of all of those countries. We had the whole world backing us up on the war on terror when we were fighting against the people who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan. Once Bush and his cronies started their unnecessary and unwarranted invasion of Iraq they totally lost respect of all of the countries who disagreed, and that was 99% of them. Everyone else were right in that case and we were wrong. It was an arrogant and stupid thing to do IMO. They basically told the whole world, F#CK YOU, we're gonna do what we want whether you all like it or not! From that point on we lost the respect of just about everyone. That is where Bush/Cheney showed an immense amount of arrogance IMO. It may not have been personally directed at any one leader but it was collectively directed at almost everyone which is even worse IMO.

I'm still waiting for all of the WMDs to be discovered and the Iraqis to be showering us with candy and flowers.

IMO Obama has been far, far superior to Bush/Cheney as far as foreign policy goes. The only problem I have seen at all is the slight bickering between us and Israel which I think will pass without problem. Although we have each pi$$ed each other off lately leaders from both countries have gone out of their way to point out that we are still allies in every way.


Of course I totally respect your views Pete but I will have to disagree on this one. Regardless of whether the invasion of Iraq was a mistake or not Bush did everything possible to bring along the United Nations and the international community. Nations like Russia France and China had their own cynical reasons for opposing it having nothing to do with right or wrong and everything to do with their perceived national interest. If the leaders of Germany or France felt alientated because Bush did not do what they wanted then that is what it is. The purpose of our foreign policy should be to advance American interests and not getting leadership of other nations to like us or feel sorry for us. That said there are plenty of nations and leaders who had great respect for this country and for President Bush. Just to name a few of them, Great Britain, Australia, India, Poland, CZech Republic, Hungary, The Ukraine, Georgia. The list goes on and on.

Again there are no friends in the world only interests. There was nothing in Bush's personal style that would cause anyone to not think very highly of him on a personal level. To the extent nations disagreed with us it was because we took actions they believed not to be in their national interest.

As far as Obama goes, the thing with Israel is, in my opinion, an example of his high handed personal style which I think IS offensive and he has offended more than a few allies with protocol issues among other things.

For the record these are my opinions. I could be wrong.


dougrhon - 4/28/2010 at 09:10 PM

quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


brofan - 4/28/2010 at 09:20 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


I find his lack of arrogance and respectful demeaner towards other world leaders very refreshing coming off of 8 years of numb nuts cowboy diplomacy by Cheney and Bush.


Actually I feel the exact opposite. Bush was always kind and decent towards the leaders of other nations whether you agree with his policies or not. I frankly can't think of a single instance when on a personal level he displayed arrogance towards other nations. I realize this is a commonly held belief but I can't think of an instance. Obama has shown himself to be arrogant bordering on inappropriate with a number of close allies.


Bush/Cheney alienated everyone when they went and invaded Iraq against the wishes of all of those countries. We had the whole world backing us up on the war on terror when we were fighting against the people who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan. Once Bush and his cronies started their unnecessary and unwarranted invasion of Iraq they totally lost respect of all of the countries who disagreed, and that was 99% of them. Everyone else were right in that case and we were wrong. It was an arrogant and stupid thing to do IMO. They basically told the whole world, F#CK YOU, we're gonna do what we want whether you all like it or not! From that point on we lost the respect of just about everyone. That is where Bush/Cheney showed an immense amount of arrogance IMO. It may not have been personally directed at any one leader but it was collectively directed at almost everyone which is even worse IMO.

I'm still waiting for all of the WMDs to be discovered and the Iraqis to be showering us with candy and flowers.

IMO Obama has been far, far superior to Bush/Cheney as far as foreign policy goes. The only problem I have seen at all is the slight bickering between us and Israel which I think will pass without problem. Although we have each pi$$ed each other off lately leaders from both countries have gone out of their way to point out that we are still allies in every way.


Of course I totally respect your views Pete but I will have to disagree on this one. Regardless of whether the invasion of Iraq was a mistake or not Bush did everything possible to bring along the United Nations and the international community. Nations like Russia France and China had their own cynical reasons for opposing it having nothing to do with right or wrong and everything to do with their perceived national interest. If the leaders of Germany or France felt alientated because Bush did not do what they wanted then that is what it is. The purpose of our foreign policy should be to advance American interests and not getting leadership of other nations to like us or feel sorry for us. That said there are plenty of nations and leaders who had great respect for this country and for President Bush. Just to name a few of them, Great Britain, Australia, India, Poland, CZech Republic, Hungary, The Ukraine, Georgia. The list goes on and on.

Again there are no friends in the world only interests. There was nothing in Bush's personal style that would cause anyone to not think very highly of him on a personal level. To the extent nations disagreed with us it was because we took actions they believed not to be in their national interest.

As far as Obama goes, the thing with Israel is, in my opinion, an example of his high handed personal style which I think IS offensive and he has offended more than a few allies with protocol issues among other things.

For the record these are my opinions. I could be wrong.



I don't think Andrea Merkel expected - nor appreciated - getting a "shoulder rub" from President Bush. It was inappropriate and totally unprofessional.


brofan - 4/28/2010 at 09:29 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


sixty8 - 4/28/2010 at 09:32 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Is this a joke?



I guess when you kiss the world's ass .....your respected.


I find his lack of arrogance and respectful demeaner towards other world leaders very refreshing coming off of 8 years of numb nuts cowboy diplomacy by Cheney and Bush.


Actually I feel the exact opposite. Bush was always kind and decent towards the leaders of other nations whether you agree with his policies or not. I frankly can't think of a single instance when on a personal level he displayed arrogance towards other nations. I realize this is a commonly held belief but I can't think of an instance. Obama has shown himself to be arrogant bordering on inappropriate with a number of close allies.


Bush/Cheney alienated everyone when they went and invaded Iraq against the wishes of all of those countries. We had the whole world backing us up on the war on terror when we were fighting against the people who attacked us on 9/11 in Afghanistan. Once Bush and his cronies started their unnecessary and unwarranted invasion of Iraq they totally lost respect of all of the countries who disagreed, and that was 99% of them. Everyone else were right in that case and we were wrong. It was an arrogant and stupid thing to do IMO. They basically told the whole world, F#CK YOU, we're gonna do what we want whether you all like it or not! From that point on we lost the respect of just about everyone. That is where Bush/Cheney showed an immense amount of arrogance IMO. It may not have been personally directed at any one leader but it was collectively directed at almost everyone which is even worse IMO.

I'm still waiting for all of the WMDs to be discovered and the Iraqis to be showering us with candy and flowers.

IMO Obama has been far, far superior to Bush/Cheney as far as foreign policy goes. The only problem I have seen at all is the slight bickering between us and Israel which I think will pass without problem. Although we have each pi$$ed each other off lately leaders from both countries have gone out of their way to point out that we are still allies in every way.


Of course I totally respect your views Pete but I will have to disagree on this one. Regardless of whether the invasion of Iraq was a mistake or not Bush did everything possible to bring along the United Nations and the international community. Nations like Russia France and China had their own cynical reasons for opposing it having nothing to do with right or wrong and everything to do with their perceived national interest. If the leaders of Germany or France felt alientated because Bush did not do what they wanted then that is what it is. The purpose of our foreign policy should be to advance American interests and not getting leadership of other nations to like us or feel sorry for us. That said there are plenty of nations and leaders who had great respect for this country and for President Bush. Just to name a few of them, Great Britain, Australia, India, Poland, CZech Republic, Hungary, The Ukraine, Georgia. The list goes on and on.

Again there are no friends in the world only interests. There was nothing in Bush's personal style that would cause anyone to not think very highly of him on a personal level. To the extent nations disagreed with us it was because we took actions they believed not to be in their national interest.

As far as Obama goes, the thing with Israel is, in my opinion, an example of his high handed personal style which I think IS offensive and he has offended more than a few allies with protocol issues among other things.

For the record these are my opinions. I could be wrong.



Well, we will just agree to disagree on this Doug. IMO Bush/Cheney completely disrespected 99% of the world with Their Iraq decision. It was arrogant and foolish and I don't think Bush did anything truthful to bring along the international community. In the end, the rest of the world were right, there were no WMDs, and Bush/Cheney looked foolish and arrogant which IMO they were.

Then somewhere along the line when they realized how badly they screwed up they changed it to "we are saving the poor Iraqi people from their terrible dictator leader" and "we are bringing democracy to the middle east". If those are the reasons we use as a barometer for going to war, then we have a lot of wars to fight and a lot of people to save around the world.


dougrhon - 4/29/2010 at 12:25 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


brofan - 4/29/2010 at 10:38 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


Good points. However I believe China has two advantages over India (although I agree that their current rate of growth is unsustainable - but they still own almost all of our debt) - India has a natural adversary in Pakistan which they always have to keep an eye on and occupies a very large number of their troops just to maintain order. That situation is a powder keg and sooner or later will explode.

The other thing is that China is a much more authoritarian society and has no qualms about using force to control the general population. The masses still have an obedient mindset and as such the State is able to maintain an iron first over the populace.

India is rapidly modernizing and Westernizing and they have billions to feed and clothe....with the modernization of their culture there will be more and more demands by the poor to share in prosperity and without the history of Communist control I think there will be more and more unrest. The existence of the caste system will help to maintain social order but not forever. Unless India can find a way to raise the standard of living for the general public I think at some point there may be a great deal of political and social unrest.

And the fact that China owns so much of our debt puts us in a naturally defensive position, frankly something to which we are not accustomed.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out down the road.....


dougrhon - 4/29/2010 at 10:46 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


Good points. However I believe China has two advantages over India (although I agree that their current rate of growth is unsustainable - but they still own almost all of our debt) - India has a natural adversary in Pakistan which they always have to keep an eye on and occupies a very large number of their troops just to maintain order. That situation is a powder keg and sooner or later will explode.

The other thing is that China is a much more authoritarian society and has no qualms about using force to control the general population. The masses still have an obedient mindset and as such the State is able to maintain an iron first over the populace.

India is rapidly modernizing and Westernizing and they have billions to feed and clothe....with the modernization of their culture there will be more and more demands by the poor to share in prosperity and without the history of Communist control I think there will be more and more unrest. The existence of the caste system will help to maintain social order but not forever. Unless India can find a way to raise the standard of living for the general public I think at some point there may be a great deal of political and social unrest.

And the fact that China owns so much of our debt puts us in a naturally defensive position, frankly something to which we are not accustomed.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out down the road.....


I guess I'm just an old fashioned democrat (small "d") I still believe that authoritarian societies will self destruct in the long run and China which is trying to unleash a dynamic economy with a rigid totalitarian state control is headed to a fall. That's my opinion. Of course I agree about Indian social problems but I think that the growing economy is bringing more and more people into a higher living standard like in China and WITHOUT the rigid totalitarianism, freedom will give everyone a greater stake in maintaining the society. In history, it is rarely the free societies that become totalitarian or turn communist. (Germany a notable exception)


brofan - 4/29/2010 at 10:59 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


Good points. However I believe China has two advantages over India (although I agree that their current rate of growth is unsustainable - but they still own almost all of our debt) - India has a natural adversary in Pakistan which they always have to keep an eye on and occupies a very large number of their troops just to maintain order. That situation is a powder keg and sooner or later will explode.

The other thing is that China is a much more authoritarian society and has no qualms about using force to control the general population. The masses still have an obedient mindset and as such the State is able to maintain an iron first over the populace.

India is rapidly modernizing and Westernizing and they have billions to feed and clothe....with the modernization of their culture there will be more and more demands by the poor to share in prosperity and without the history of Communist control I think there will be more and more unrest. The existence of the caste system will help to maintain social order but not forever. Unless India can find a way to raise the standard of living for the general public I think at some point there may be a great deal of political and social unrest.

And the fact that China owns so much of our debt puts us in a naturally defensive position, frankly something to which we are not accustomed.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out down the road.....


I guess I'm just an old fashioned democrat (small "d") I still believe that authoritarian societies will self destruct in the long run and China which is trying to unleash a dynamic economy with a rigid totalitarian state control is headed to a fall. That's my opinion. Of course I agree about Indian social problems but I think that the growing economy is bringing more and more people into a higher living standard like in China and WITHOUT the rigid totalitarianism, freedom will give everyone a greater stake in maintaining the society. In history, it is rarely the free societies that become totalitarian or turn communist. (Germany a notable exception)


I don't disagree with you, but we may self-destruct before either of those countries do.

The flip side of your argument is Karl Marx's theory that Capitalism is fundamentally flawed and eventually doomed to fail and that the Communists just need to wait it out. The Russians ran out of time, thank God. I hope we don't.


2112 - 4/30/2010 at 12:18 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


Good points. However I believe China has two advantages over India (although I agree that their current rate of growth is unsustainable - but they still own almost all of our debt) - India has a natural adversary in Pakistan which they always have to keep an eye on and occupies a very large number of their troops just to maintain order. That situation is a powder keg and sooner or later will explode.

The other thing is that China is a much more authoritarian society and has no qualms about using force to control the general population. The masses still have an obedient mindset and as such the State is able to maintain an iron first over the populace.

India is rapidly modernizing and Westernizing and they have billions to feed and clothe....with the modernization of their culture there will be more and more demands by the poor to share in prosperity and without the history of Communist control I think there will be more and more unrest. The existence of the caste system will help to maintain social order but not forever. Unless India can find a way to raise the standard of living for the general public I think at some point there may be a great deal of political and social unrest.

And the fact that China owns so much of our debt puts us in a naturally defensive position, frankly something to which we are not accustomed.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out down the road.....


I guess I'm just an old fashioned democrat (small "d") I still believe that authoritarian societies will self destruct in the long run and China which is trying to unleash a dynamic economy with a rigid totalitarian state control is headed to a fall. That's my opinion. Of course I agree about Indian social problems but I think that the growing economy is bringing more and more people into a higher living standard like in China and WITHOUT the rigid totalitarianism, freedom will give everyone a greater stake in maintaining the society. In history, it is rarely the free societies that become totalitarian or turn communist. (Germany a notable exception)


I'm guessing that you've never been to India. India can't even fend for itself. That country is in such a bad shape that it is hard to put into words. They have daily power outages, lack clean water, and has such high unemployment that the most educated workers work for peanuts. If you think our politicians are corrupt, you haven't seen India. There is a reason that anyone with the means to do so tries to find their way to the USA or Europe. It is a country of almost no middle class - either you are poor or you are privileged. Not the recipe for world domination if you ask me.

China definitely has economic clout right now, but the workers in China are starting to see more dollars and more freedom as well. The effect will be that people will continue to expect more freedom and don't be surprised if there are major political changes coming to China in the next decade. I don't think anyone really knows what China will be like 20 years from now. I suspect that they will still be an economic power but whether they are the new superpower, I wouldn't count on it. As much progress as they've made, they still have more problems then you can imagine. Some of their economic progress has come at the price of increased pollution - something that will have to be dealt with soon, as anyone who watched the Olympics could see.

As for the future of the USA, we will be fine. We may no longer be the superpower we once were, but economically and militarily I don't see the USA falling behind most of the world. Has our influence in the world changed? Well, yes. Bush burned a lot of bridges during his 8 years and I think a lot of the world saw the US as a bully instead of a leader. I think a lot of that is shifting back now, but let's face it - the world is different now. I don't think most Americans want the US spending money on US military bases all around the world nor do I think that most Americans want to continue buying our influence around the world with the never ending Marshall Plan. Trying to dominate the world bankrupted the Russians and we are lucky it didn't happen to us. The sooner that we accept that the better off we will be.


brofan - 4/30/2010 at 12:48 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


Good points. However I believe China has two advantages over India (although I agree that their current rate of growth is unsustainable - but they still own almost all of our debt) - India has a natural adversary in Pakistan which they always have to keep an eye on and occupies a very large number of their troops just to maintain order. That situation is a powder keg and sooner or later will explode.

The other thing is that China is a much more authoritarian society and has no qualms about using force to control the general population. The masses still have an obedient mindset and as such the State is able to maintain an iron first over the populace.

India is rapidly modernizing and Westernizing and they have billions to feed and clothe....with the modernization of their culture there will be more and more demands by the poor to share in prosperity and without the history of Communist control I think there will be more and more unrest. The existence of the caste system will help to maintain social order but not forever. Unless India can find a way to raise the standard of living for the general public I think at some point there may be a great deal of political and social unrest.

And the fact that China owns so much of our debt puts us in a naturally defensive position, frankly something to which we are not accustomed.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out down the road.....


I guess I'm just an old fashioned democrat (small "d") I still believe that authoritarian societies will self destruct in the long run and China which is trying to unleash a dynamic economy with a rigid totalitarian state control is headed to a fall. That's my opinion. Of course I agree about Indian social problems but I think that the growing economy is bringing more and more people into a higher living standard like in China and WITHOUT the rigid totalitarianism, freedom will give everyone a greater stake in maintaining the society. In history, it is rarely the free societies that become totalitarian or turn communist. (Germany a notable exception)


I'm guessing that you've never been to India. India can't even fend for itself. That country is in such a bad shape that it is hard to put into words. They have daily power outages, lack clean water, and has such high unemployment that the most educated workers work for peanuts. If you think our politicians are corrupt, you haven't seen India. There is a reason that anyone with the means to do so tries to find their way to the USA or Europe. It is a country of almost no middle class - either you are poor or you are privileged. Not the recipe for world domination if you ask me.

China definitely has economic clout right now, but the workers in China are starting to see more dollars and more freedom as well. The effect will be that people will continue to expect more freedom and don't be surprised if there are major political changes coming to China in the next decade. I don't think anyone really knows what China will be like 20 years from now. I suspect that they will still be an economic power but whether they are the new superpower, I wouldn't count on it. As much progress as they've made, they still have more problems then you can imagine. Some of their economic progress has come at the price of increased pollution - something that will have to be dealt with soon, as anyone who watched the Olympics could see.

As for the future of the USA, we will be fine. We may no longer be the superpower we once were, but economically and militarily I don't see the USA falling behind most of the world. Has our influence in the world changed? Well, yes. Bush burned a lot of bridges during his 8 years and I think a lot of the world saw the US as a bully instead of a leader. I think a lot of that is shifting back now, but let's face it - the world is different now. I don't think most Americans want the US spending money on US military bases all around the world nor do I think that most Americans want to continue buying our influence around the world with the never ending Marshall Plan. Trying to dominate the world bankrupted the Russians and we are lucky it didn't happen to us. The sooner that we accept that the better off we will be.



Which was exactly my point when I said the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.


dougrhon - 4/30/2010 at 02:43 AM

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These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


Good points. However I believe China has two advantages over India (although I agree that their current rate of growth is unsustainable - but they still own almost all of our debt) - India has a natural adversary in Pakistan which they always have to keep an eye on and occupies a very large number of their troops just to maintain order. That situation is a powder keg and sooner or later will explode.

The other thing is that China is a much more authoritarian society and has no qualms about using force to control the general population. The masses still have an obedient mindset and as such the State is able to maintain an iron first over the populace.

India is rapidly modernizing and Westernizing and they have billions to feed and clothe....with the modernization of their culture there will be more and more demands by the poor to share in prosperity and without the history of Communist control I think there will be more and more unrest. The existence of the caste system will help to maintain social order but not forever. Unless India can find a way to raise the standard of living for the general public I think at some point there may be a great deal of political and social unrest.

And the fact that China owns so much of our debt puts us in a naturally defensive position, frankly something to which we are not accustomed.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out down the road.....


I guess I'm just an old fashioned democrat (small "d") I still believe that authoritarian societies will self destruct in the long run and China which is trying to unleash a dynamic economy with a rigid totalitarian state control is headed to a fall. That's my opinion. Of course I agree about Indian social problems but I think that the growing economy is bringing more and more people into a higher living standard like in China and WITHOUT the rigid totalitarianism, freedom will give everyone a greater stake in maintaining the society. In history, it is rarely the free societies that become totalitarian or turn communist. (Germany a notable exception)


I don't disagree with you, but we may self-destruct before either of those countries do.

The flip side of your argument is Karl Marx's theory that Capitalism is fundamentally flawed and eventually doomed to fail and that the Communists just need to wait it out. The Russians ran out of time, thank God. I hope we don't.


As you can imagine I totally reject Marx's theories.


dougrhon - 4/30/2010 at 02:47 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


Good points. However I believe China has two advantages over India (although I agree that their current rate of growth is unsustainable - but they still own almost all of our debt) - India has a natural adversary in Pakistan which they always have to keep an eye on and occupies a very large number of their troops just to maintain order. That situation is a powder keg and sooner or later will explode.

The other thing is that China is a much more authoritarian society and has no qualms about using force to control the general population. The masses still have an obedient mindset and as such the State is able to maintain an iron first over the populace.

India is rapidly modernizing and Westernizing and they have billions to feed and clothe....with the modernization of their culture there will be more and more demands by the poor to share in prosperity and without the history of Communist control I think there will be more and more unrest. The existence of the caste system will help to maintain social order but not forever. Unless India can find a way to raise the standard of living for the general public I think at some point there may be a great deal of political and social unrest.

And the fact that China owns so much of our debt puts us in a naturally defensive position, frankly something to which we are not accustomed.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out down the road.....


I guess I'm just an old fashioned democrat (small "d") I still believe that authoritarian societies will self destruct in the long run and China which is trying to unleash a dynamic economy with a rigid totalitarian state control is headed to a fall. That's my opinion. Of course I agree about Indian social problems but I think that the growing economy is bringing more and more people into a higher living standard like in China and WITHOUT the rigid totalitarianism, freedom will give everyone a greater stake in maintaining the society. In history, it is rarely the free societies that become totalitarian or turn communist. (Germany a notable exception)


I'm guessing that you've never been to India. India can't even fend for itself. That country is in such a bad shape that it is hard to put into words. They have daily power outages, lack clean water, and has such high unemployment that the most educated workers work for peanuts. If you think our politicians are corrupt, you haven't seen India. There is a reason that anyone with the means to do so tries to find their way to the USA or Europe. It is a country of almost no middle class - either you are poor or you are privileged. Not the recipe for world domination if you ask me.

China definitely has economic clout right now, but the workers in China are starting to see more dollars and more freedom as well. The effect will be that people will continue to expect more freedom and don't be surprised if there are major political changes coming to China in the next decade. I don't think anyone really knows what China will be like 20 years from now. I suspect that they will still be an economic power but whether they are the new superpower, I wouldn't count on it. As much progress as they've made, they still have more problems then you can imagine. Some of their economic progress has come at the price of increased pollution - something that will have to be dealt with soon, as anyone who watched the Olympics could see.

As for the future of the USA, we will be fine. We may no longer be the superpower we once were, but economically and militarily I don't see the USA falling behind most of the world. Has our influence in the world changed? Well, yes. Bush burned a lot of bridges during his 8 years and I think a lot of the world saw the US as a bully instead of a leader. I think a lot of that is shifting back now, but let's face it - the world is different now. I don't think most Americans want the US spending money on US military bases all around the world nor do I think that most Americans want to continue buying our influence around the world with the never ending Marshall Plan. Trying to dominate the world bankrupted the Russians and we are lucky it didn't happen to us. The sooner that we accept that the better off we will be.



I agree with you about our future and Chinas. Regarding India, I realize it is a troubled, still third world country for many reasons. But I think they have a greater future than the Chinese because the pieces are in place for the creation of a middle class which is the key to prosperity for any country. In any event, India is a natural ally of the U.S. and we should be cultivating that relationship. I certainly do not expect India to dominate the world but then I don't expect anyone to. But as long as the United States is a land of freedom and opportunity, people will flock here and we will be exceptional.


dougrhon - 4/30/2010 at 02:50 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
These countries, Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain, are a part of Europe where the religion of choice is cynicism and nanny state governments. Of course they are going to impressed with a president who treats the leadership if Israel like crap, send the Dalai Lama out the back of the White House by the trash bins, has the freedom fighters of Iran calling him out "Obama, are you with us or against us?" and he bows down to leaders left and right, is an easy mark as far as foreign policy,was given a Nobel Peace prize pre-emptively for what he might do and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism. Duh!


Derek, I hate to tell you this, but the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.

I know this is hard for you to accept, but when the United States of America can't even win 2 wars against what are, let's face it, 2 two-bit third world countries run by propped up figureheads of our own choice, it sends a message to the entire world that we are no longer the World Dominator that we were after WWll. Far from it. And you can blame all of it on Obama, but if Bush hadn't started a completely unnecessary and illegal war that he couldn't finish, and which exposed our military deficiencies to the entire world, we might have been able to continue that charade. For a while, anyway.

Don't think China isn't taking notes. They are.


It will never be over because we are exceptional. We don't have to dominate the world but we are exceptional and we will have leadership again that believes it.


I respect your opinion and understand the theoretical place it comes from but I think history will show otherwise. Empires don't last forever, even Rome.

China is a force the likes of which we have never encountered before and the fact that not only do they have resources we can only dream of right now, they practically own us. They have our balls in a vise. And all they have to do is squeeze.

I wish that weren't the case. But it's reality.

We are in a precarious state economically with no end in sight.....in order to be the strongest nation in the world you must have the mightiest economic engine and the fact is, right now we don't. Letting our manufacturing base erode to the point it has was a huge tactical error and the fact that the Chinese are robbing us blind technologically only compounds the problem.

I know I'm not an expert and I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.


I respect your views as well. However two things:

1. We do not have to be the world's strongest country to be exceptional. Americans believed themselves to be exceptional from 1776 on and nothing has changed that.

2. We are still far and away the world's strongest economic force. China is going to crash and burn I promise you that. They cannot possibly sustain their population at anything other than a third world living standard and millions and millions of their people live in huts. The real future lies with India a growing vibrant democracy.They said the exact same things about Japan in the 80's .Remember "The Cold War is over Japan won"? Right now we seem to be shifting back towards the kind of statism that ultimately hurts growth. We have enough resiliency to pull out of it. We always have and as long as we have our freedom we always will. I firmly believe that. I realize many don't.


Good points. However I believe China has two advantages over India (although I agree that their current rate of growth is unsustainable - but they still own almost all of our debt) - India has a natural adversary in Pakistan which they always have to keep an eye on and occupies a very large number of their troops just to maintain order. That situation is a powder keg and sooner or later will explode.

The other thing is that China is a much more authoritarian society and has no qualms about using force to control the general population. The masses still have an obedient mindset and as such the State is able to maintain an iron first over the populace.

India is rapidly modernizing and Westernizing and they have billions to feed and clothe....with the modernization of their culture there will be more and more demands by the poor to share in prosperity and without the history of Communist control I think there will be more and more unrest. The existence of the caste system will help to maintain social order but not forever. Unless India can find a way to raise the standard of living for the general public I think at some point there may be a great deal of political and social unrest.

And the fact that China owns so much of our debt puts us in a naturally defensive position, frankly something to which we are not accustomed.

It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out down the road.....


I guess I'm just an old fashioned democrat (small "d") I still believe that authoritarian societies will self destruct in the long run and China which is trying to unleash a dynamic economy with a rigid totalitarian state control is headed to a fall. That's my opinion. Of course I agree about Indian social problems but I think that the growing economy is bringing more and more people into a higher living standard like in China and WITHOUT the rigid totalitarianism, freedom will give everyone a greater stake in maintaining the society. In history, it is rarely the free societies that become totalitarian or turn communist. (Germany a notable exception)


I'm guessing that you've never been to India. India can't even fend for itself. That country is in such a bad shape that it is hard to put into words. They have daily power outages, lack clean water, and has such high unemployment that the most educated workers work for peanuts. If you think our politicians are corrupt, you haven't seen India. There is a reason that anyone with the means to do so tries to find their way to the USA or Europe. It is a country of almost no middle class - either you are poor or you are privileged. Not the recipe for world domination if you ask me.

China definitely has economic clout right now, but the workers in China are starting to see more dollars and more freedom as well. The effect will be that people will continue to expect more freedom and don't be surprised if there are major political changes coming to China in the next decade. I don't think anyone really knows what China will be like 20 years from now. I suspect that they will still be an economic power but whether they are the new superpower, I wouldn't count on it. As much progress as they've made, they still have more problems then you can imagine. Some of their economic progress has come at the price of increased pollution - something that will have to be dealt with soon, as anyone who watched the Olympics could see.

As for the future of the USA, we will be fine. We may no longer be the superpower we once were, but economically and militarily I don't see the USA falling behind most of the world. Has our influence in the world changed? Well, yes. Bush burned a lot of bridges during his 8 years and I think a lot of the world saw the US as a bully instead of a leader. I think a lot of that is shifting back now, but let's face it - the world is different now. I don't think most Americans want the US spending money on US military bases all around the world nor do I think that most Americans want to continue buying our influence around the world with the never ending Marshall Plan. Trying to dominate the world bankrupted the Russians and we are lucky it didn't happen to us. The sooner that we accept that the better off we will be.



Which was exactly my point when I said the Age of American Exceptionalism is over.


I will just state once again that American exceptionalism does not mean American dominance. This country will always be exceptional because it is not founded on an ethnic group or a nationality but on an idea and an ideal and with bumps and bruises warts and cuts and scrapes we continue to live that ideal. And in so doing we will always serve as a role model for the world. This has always been our greatest influence going back to the days of the Revolution, not our physical power or even our wealth. This is still a country where our most revered president was born on the frontier to illiterate parents and never even attended a secondary school. This is why we are exceptional. I believe this with all my heart and soul. It's why I love this country which opened it's arms to my grandparents.


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