Thread: Kiss

allmanfan21 - 2/22/2014 at 08:40 PM

Well, I just listened to Ace Frehley on Eddie Trunk's radio show last night, and he's confirmed that the original 4 members, being himself, Peter, Gene & Paul will not be performing together at the induction in April. Gene & Paul want to perform with the current lineup and the hall of fame is agreeing to let that happen. Ace isn't sure if he's even going to attend since there's not gonna be a performance. If he does go, he says it will be for the fans, that's it. I think The Hall of fame should tell them that either the original 4 perform, or nobody plays at all. If Kiss had been inducted in 1999 when the were elgible, this wouldn't have been an issue, since the original guys were together at that time. So, if anyone was planning on buying a ticket to the induction specifically to see Kiss, this might change your mind. Unless things change, there won't be a performance from the original lineup.


WarEagleRK - 2/22/2014 at 08:51 PM

I'm not a KISS fan at all, but this isn't surprising. Gene & Paul probably think if they play with Ace and Peter at the HOF then the version they have now with Singer and Thayer will not have less of a draw on tour going forward. Even if it's the difference in a couple of thousand dollars they will not give the fans what they want.


WharfRat - 2/22/2014 at 10:23 PM

TOTAL POS Gene is, but I am not suprised


WarEagleRK - 2/22/2014 at 10:55 PM

I've actually heard from most it's Paul that holds grudges. Gene is up for anything that makes money, but Paul takes every perceived slight personally.


WharfRat - 2/23/2014 at 12:01 AM

Dunno. I always saw Paul as just being "along for the ride"


les_paul_sunburst - 2/23/2014 at 12:18 AM

Gene $immons and Paul $tanley are KI$$ as far as they are concerned.

I think they have erased Ace and Peter from the equation a long time ago.

But , playing devil's advocate here, as much as I love the debut, Hotter Than Hell, and Kiss Alive, Gene and Paul were alway consumate professionals while Ace and Peter became drunken buffoons, which certainly hastened their respective exits from the band. And I am a total Ace fan buy hey...facts are facts.

Having said that, the original lineup produced the only music by the band that I am still interested in, still own, and still play.

The debut still kicks like a defiant young juveinile deliquent and I still love it ...


CanadianMule - 2/23/2014 at 01:09 AM

Gene and Paul also wrote the vast majority of the songs.

The guy whogets screwed is Bruce Kulick as he was in the band longer than Ace. Gets screwed when they bring the other two back. Gene and Paul being very smart knew that the Reunion stuff would spark sales plus they got Ace and Peter to sign over rights to the Kitty cat and Spaceman. Pure genius. Then go on an endless farewell tour to really rake it in. I say induct the 4 plus Singer and Kulick and no one plays. Does the world really need another R&R All Night?


Zambi - 2/23/2014 at 01:21 AM

Much to Gene and Paul's chagrin, they are all 4 now equals here as far as the HOF is concerned. Ace & Peter ought to turn the tables and announce that they are playing Cold Gin, New York Groove, Hard Luck Woman, and Beth and say that Gene and Paul are welcome to join them on-stage as KI$$, but if they decline then Ace & Peter will just go get another half-ass bass player and rhythm guitarist to round out the lineup. Or Gene & Paul can go ahead and play with their version of Kiss while Ace & Peter play with their version, but if Gene & Paul plan to put Singer and Thayer in their makeup, then Ace & Peter will put their half-ass bass player and rhythm guitarist in the demon and starchild makeup. Just make a mockery of the whole thing. They all say they don't respect the HOF, so why not? At least piss off Gene & Paul in the process.

Sort of like how Sammy and Mike Anthony showed up when they were inducted as members of Van Halen even though they were no longer in the band.


gotdrumz - 2/24/2014 at 06:16 PM

quote:
The guy whogets screwed is Bruce Kulick as he was in the band longer than Ace.


Not exactly true, Bruce was 11 years and some change. While Ace was 15 years total.

quote:
. I say induct the 4 plus Singer and Kulick


Eric Carr and Vincent Cusano are just as deserving if not more (mileage may vary)


kdick - 2/24/2014 at 07:11 PM

Induct them all and have the house band cover the tunes...............


WharfRat - 2/24/2014 at 07:45 PM

Looks like Gene and Paul are being the little bitches they are and taking their ball and going home.

This was on their FB page.

quote:
ROCK AND ROLL HALL OF FAME STATEMENT FROM KISS

To All Our Fans In Regards To The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame:

Out of respect, Ace and Peter's recent statements demand a quick response to you, our fans.

Our intention was to celebrate the entire history of KISS and give credit to all members including present long time members Tommy Thayer and Eric Singer, and additionally Bruce Kulick and Eric Carr all who have made this band what it is, regardless of the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame's point of view.

Although KISS has moved forward far longer without them, Ace and Peter are at the very foundation of what we have built and this would all be impossible had they not been a part of it in the beginning.

It is over 13 years since the original lineup has played together in make-up and we believe the memory of those times would not be enhanced. Contrary to claims made through the media we have never refused to play with Ace and Peter.

We have spent 40 years dedicated to building KISS without quitting or wavering as the band has moved forward with huge tours and platinum albums through different important lineups for forty years, to this day.

KISS has always been a band unlike any other. That is why we started KISS. That is why we continue KISS. Being unlike other bands also means making choices and decisions unlike other bands.

This is understandably an emotional situation where there is no way to please everyone.

To bring this to a quick end, we have decided not to play in any line-up and we will focus our attention on celebrating our induction into the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame.

We are excited and are looking forward to seeing you all on the KISS 40th Anniversary worldwide tour


[Edited on 2/24/2014 by WharfRat]


WharfRat - 2/24/2014 at 07:46 PM

Why cant they be like the ABB and learn to let bygo...

Oh wait never mind


CanadianMule - 2/24/2014 at 08:29 PM

quote:
quote:
The guy whogets screwed is Bruce Kulick as he was in the band longer than Ace.


Not exactly true, Bruce was 11 years and some change. While Ace was 15 years total.

quote:
. I say induct the 4 plus Singer and Kulick


Eric Carr and Vincent Cusano are just as deserving if not more (mileage may vary)



Well Bruce's were active years while Ace's included some sit around and he didn't actually play on albums before/after the reunion and samples were used live. But I will give that to you. Ace is terrible as is Peter Criss. Have hung with both, seen them in rehearsals and small clubs. Hard time making it through songs especially Peter.

i think Eric merits entry and Gene and Paul would be in favor of that. Vinnie? I think Vinnie and Tommy should be on the outside but what the hell - let them all in.

Ace and Peter can't dress up as their characters nor use Gene or Paul's. They do not have the rights. They are not very bright guys.


WharfRat - 2/24/2014 at 11:52 PM

Didnt realize they signed over their rights to the characters.

Complete stupidity on their part.

Had to get that one last payday I guess.


Oh, and I have seen a few clips of Ace from the last few years. Looks like he has finally got his act together. Last album Anomoly (sp?) was pretty solid


jfk2112 - 2/25/2014 at 12:37 AM

I've been a KISS fan since I was a teen in the 80's but I had the KISS cards in the 70's even though I had no idea what they sounded like.

I think the HOF should have inducted all members of the band past and present. All contributed to the overall success of the band and if the HOF is celebrating the band as a whole (not just KISS but any bad that has had multiple lineups) then all those involved should be inducted.

Ace and Peter were there at the beginning, Ace inspired a ton of guitar players and contributed an air of cool to this band of cartoon characters, as well as playing tons of simple but memorable and hummable guitar solos tailor made for air guitar and mirror dancing everywhere. let's keep in mind that Paul begged Ace to stay in the band back in 1982. He knew it then and knows it now that Ace is a fan favorite. Criss gave them some street cred (although after reading his autobiography he seems like a reactionary doofus crybaby) and his drumming was jazz influenced and gave the band the swing factor that made them a Rock & Roll band.

Vinnie Vincent saved their asses on Creatures Of The Night and Lick It Up after that piece of crap Music From The Elder, plus he co-wrote some tunes for their next return to pure hard rock with Revenge. Bruce Kulick stepped in for Mark St. John when he got sick and couldn't perform and did a solid job in the lead guitar spot for years. he got booted for an impromptu reunion and deserves the HOF just for putting up with Paul & Gene for years. I can't say enough good about Eric Carr. How does he not deserve to be included? And Singer and Thayer, even though I oppose them being in makeup, are carrying on the legacy of the band and as such should be included.

Peter sold the rights to the Catman back in the 80's after squandering his money on women and drugs. Ace sold his in the 90's as part of the reunion deal. Neither probably ever imagined KISS would put other players in the makeup. They probably thought they were giving up merchandising money which is still pretty stupid.

Paul & Gene seems to feel they are KISS and today they are, but they forget where they came from and refuse to acknowledge the guys who built the band and put them on the worldwide stage from which they now proclaim their sovereignty.

Gene and Paul are shrewd businessmen and they don't seem to realize they damage their brand by behaving this way.

Isn't the burning question really this: Will Ace and Peter be jamming with Hall & Oates?


CanadianMule - 2/25/2014 at 02:31 AM

I would say that Gene and Paul gave both guys countless chances over the years and even let them back in. And they did the same thing. I think they know and remember where they come from. And they also know the importance of the two other characters which is why they own them.

Session players covered for them for years. Bob Ezrin refused to use them to a large degree and has said the experience was painful.

Gene may be a money hungry guy but at least he is honest. In the war of words over the years, he is bang on and has no reasons to lie.

As I said, both guys are not very smart. They have made countless errors and if they didn't think Gene and Paul would use the makeup then.......they deserve it.


matt05 - 2/25/2014 at 01:25 PM

i just wanted to ask if everyone knew ace was never fired from kiss 1 time? he left in the early 80's because he didn't like the direction the band was heading musically and then after the farewell tour in 2000 he left on his own again.


jfk2112 - 2/26/2014 at 01:01 AM

quote:
i just wanted to ask if everyone knew ace was never fired from kiss 1 time? he left in the early 80's because he didn't like the direction the band was heading musically and then after the farewell tour in 2000 he left on his own again.


That's exactly right. I think Ace more than Peter puts asses in seats so they would put up with his antics more. I used to think Gene was exaggerating about Peter but after reading Peter's autobiography I have changed that opinion. I think Gene was dead on about Peter. Ace was just into having a good time but Peter was a whiny, woe-is-me, everybody's out to get me kind of personality. Then "Beth" was a hit and he thought he had more clout than he did and it got worse.

I also think Paul is the one who has been steering the ship since the 80's and has mostly done a good job, and having read his thoughts on the RoF I'm not surprised by KISS's ambivalence. But I still think they should go out and play with Ace & Peter in honor of the juggernaut they founded together. At the heart of it is the RoF deciding to induct only those 4 guys which I think is ridiculous.

However KISS has been fostering the idea that KISS is an entity unto itself and it doesn't matter who is in the band as long as the characters are represented. They have even hinted the band could continue without Gene or Paul. So now the RoF is showing it does matter who is in the band and they don't want to give that credence because it would negate the last 10 years of PR. I actually find the concept of the endless band intriguing and I could see it working for a circus style band like KISS, or GWAR, or Slipknot etc.


matt05 - 2/26/2014 at 04:40 AM

quote:
quote:
i just wanted to ask if everyone knew ace was never fired from kiss 1 time? he left in the early 80's because he didn't like the direction the band was heading musically and then after the farewell tour in 2000 he left on his own again.


That's exactly right. I think Ace more than Peter puts asses in seats so they would put up with his antics more. I used to think Gene was exaggerating about Peter but after reading Peter's autobiography I have changed that opinion. I think Gene was dead on about Peter. Ace was just into having a good time but Peter was a whiny, woe-is-me, everybody's out to get me kind of personality. Then "Beth" was a hit and he thought he had more clout than he did and it got worse.

I also think Paul is the one who has been steering the ship since the 80's and has mostly done a good job, and having read his thoughts on the RoF I'm not surprised by KISS's ambivalence. But I still think they should go out and play with Ace & Peter in honor of the juggernaut they founded together. At the heart of it is the RoF deciding to induct only those 4 guys which I think is ridiculous.

However KISS has been fostering the idea that KISS is an entity unto itself and it doesn't matter who is in the band as long as the characters are represented. They have even hinted the band could continue without Gene or Paul. So now the RoF is showing it does matter who is in the band and they don't want to give that credence because it would negate the last 10 years of PR. I actually find the concept of the endless band intriguing and I could see it working for a circus style band like KISS, or GWAR, or Slipknot etc.


yeah maybe there was talk or threats of firing him but ace was never fired from kiss. funny his album Anomaly was better than the 2 recent kiss albums


matt05 - 2/28/2014 at 02:20 AM

quote:
quote:
quote:
The guy whogets screwed is Bruce Kulick as he was in the band longer than Ace.


Not exactly true, Bruce was 11 years and some change. While Ace was 15 years total.

quote:
. I say induct the 4 plus Singer and Kulick


Eric Carr and Vincent Cusano are just as deserving if not more (mileage may vary)



Well Bruce's were active years while Ace's included some sit around and he didn't actually play on albums before/after the reunion and samples were used live. But I will give that to you. Ace is terrible as is Peter Criss. Have hung with both, seen them in rehearsals and small clubs. Hard time making it through songs especially Peter.

i think Eric merits entry and Gene and Paul would be in favor of that. Vinnie? I think Vinnie and Tommy should be on the outside but what the hell - let them all in.

Ace and Peter can't dress up as their characters nor use Gene or Paul's. They do not have the rights. They are not very bright guys.


peter criss seems to get a bad rap. he had a terrible car accident in 1978 that mixed with the injuries, his drinking and drug problem and lack of practicing made his skills as a drummer diminish. from 1970-1977 he was a fine drummer for kiss and a hell of a singer. his problem in kiss was he liked 50's rock and old r&b and jazzy stuff that didn't fit most kiss fans musical interests.

he had some fun stuff in kiss and as a solo artist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTw2oJ6OVNs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpINSTG3NfE

my favorite solo song by him. old school style
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i41akM5vYqE

[Edited on 2/28/2014 by matt05]


CanadianMule - 2/28/2014 at 02:44 AM

Hell of a singer? He sounds like he sings while gargaling rocks.

One of the worst bands I have seen in a bar was Criss' band and he was the worst part. That is judged comparing them to bar bands. Was sitting with Ace who agreed. Then his band played and were not much better. They were aided by the fact that Criss' band was so bad before them.


CanadianMule - 2/28/2014 at 02:58 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q_VZ6PX7gc


matt05 - 2/28/2014 at 03:06 AM

quote:
Hell of a singer? He sounds like he sings while gargaling rocks.

One of the worst bands I have seen in a bar was Criss' band and he was the worst part. That is judged comparing them to bar bands. Was sitting with Ace who agreed. Then his band played and were not much better. They were aided by the fact that Criss' band was so bad before them.


and what year did you see them? when he was in his mid 50's with arthritis and bursitis?

most kiss fans love to hear peter wail away on the mic with his r&b influenced vocals. great performance by the catman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vhsg1BtO54


BIGV - 2/28/2014 at 03:26 AM

quote:
Well, I just listened to Ace Frehley on Eddie Trunk's radio show last night, and he's confirmed that the original 4 members, being himself, Peter, Gene & Paul will not be performing together at the induction in April.


Almost as disappointing as hearing that Manny, Moe & Jack would not be present at the annual APC (Auto Parts Convention) in Ferndale MI.


CanadianMule - 2/28/2014 at 04:29 AM

Have seen and worked Kiss at least 30+ times starting from the early 70s on. Luckily I have never had to pay. Have seen all solo except for Gene on multiple occasions also. Have seen rehearsals and jams so I have a pretty damn good idea of what they are capable of.

You make Criss out as a vital part which he is not. Twice his departure has had no effect on popularity. He sings one or two songs that anyone gives a **** about and others like Hooligan were filler and no one leaves a show pissed that it wasn't played. He is sloppy and by far the weakest drummer they have ever had. Regardless of what era.

You like him so enjoy but trying to paint him as a real talented guy is comical.


matt05 - 2/28/2014 at 04:44 AM

quote:
Have seen and worked Kiss at least 30+ times starting from the early 70s on. Luckily I have never had to pay. Have seen all solo except for Gene on multiple occasions also. Have seen rehearsals and jams so I have a pretty damn good idea of what they are capable of.

You make Criss out as a vital part which he is not. Twice his departure has had no effect on popularity. He sings one or two songs that anyone gives a **** about and others like Hooligan were filler and no one leaves a show pissed that it wasn't played. He is sloppy and by far the weakest drummer they have ever had. Regardless of what era.

You like him so enjoy but trying to paint him as a real talented guy is comical.


You make Criss out as a vital part which he is not. Twice his departure has had no effect on popularity.

please explain that statement? right now because kiss has some goofs dressed as peter and ace is the only reason they are still pretty popular. we all saw what happened by the early 90's when peter and ace were gone and the band had ditched the makeup.

i'd say all 4 original members were a vital part of the bands 70's success and overall sound. each member had different influences and because of this when one was removed the band suffered. gene and paul knew exactly when peter should have a vocal in a song. "black diamond" was never sung better than what peter did and that was a concert staple of the 70's. gene knew peter should sing the chorus to "nothing to lose" because it gave it a nice r&b sound there. criss also sang and wrote the band biggest hit of the 70's "beth" and sang lead on "hard luck woman". so the band had 5 top 20 hits in the 70's and a guy who wasn't vital did the lead vocal on 2 of them?


CanadianMule - 2/28/2014 at 05:34 AM

Yup. Neither song even sounds like KISS and Beth is a recording live.

KISS sounding R&B? You are funny.

KISS declined because their 10 year old fans grew up. Not because Criss was gone. The material got weak. They played disco which really turned rock fans off.

They had a comeback with the metal era.

I saw them play in front of 20000 people months before the reunion with Kulick and Singer and from a musician standpoint, they were the best I had ever heard them/ Months later with Ace and Peter, it was a mess musically. Sure they had makeup on. And it sounded **** . Why? Because they were inferior players.

If Criss was so good, why no success outside of Kiss? Why could he not even sell out small clubs? Why did no other act want him?

Without Ezrin, there would be no Beth. They don't even play on the **** ing song.


matt05 - 2/28/2014 at 06:22 AM

quote:
Yup. Neither song even sounds like KISS and Beth is a recording live.

KISS sounding R&B? You are funny.

KISS declined because their 10 year old fans grew up. Not because Criss was gone. The material got weak. They played disco which really turned rock fans off.

They had a comeback with the metal era.

I saw them play in front of 20000 people months before the reunion with Kulick and Singer and from a musician standpoint, they were the best I had ever heard them/ Months later with Ace and Peter, it was a mess musically. Sure they had makeup on. And it sounded **** . Why? Because they were inferior players.

If Criss was so good, why no success outside of Kiss? Why could he not even sell out small clubs? Why did no other act want him?

Without Ezrin, there would be no Beth. They don't even play on the **** ing song.


who cares if the song sounds like kiss or not. thats like saying "ramblin man" is not important to the allman brothers because it sounds nothing like them. you do know "beth" saved the sales of the DESTROYER album after it slipped down the charts and didn't sell at the levels the band and label thought it would right?

do you know r&b isstands for rhythm and blues and was the original term for artists like little richard and james brown? remember the who 30 years of MAXIMUM R&B? peter criss was a big fan of early r&b and those funny little adlibs he makes on the "nothin to lose" chorus were directly influenced by a little richard gig he saw.

who cares that the musicians were better. if thats the case dream theater could replace anyone in any band but that doesn't make the chemistry or origibality better. maybe we could fire keith richards from the rolling stones and replace him with jeff beck


StratDal - 2/28/2014 at 06:39 AM

quote:
quote:
Well, I just listened to Ace Frehley on Eddie Trunk's radio show last night, and he's confirmed that the original 4 members, being himself, Peter, Gene & Paul will not be performing together at the induction in April.


Almost as disappointing as hearing that Manny, Moe & Jack would not be present at the annual APC (Auto Parts Convention) in Ferndale MI.


LMAO!!

Reminded me of this classic! Hell, if KISS can be inducted into the RRHOF, well so should these guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcOYYcWdeI8&feature=kp


WharfRat - 2/28/2014 at 01:36 PM


wease - 2/28/2014 at 03:19 PM

quote:
I saw them play in front of 20000 people months before the reunion with Kulick and Singer and from a musician standpoint, they were the best I had ever heard them/ Months later with Ace and Peter, it was a mess musically. Sure they had makeup on. And it sounded **** . Why? Because they were inferior players.



Is this the 94/95 Tour? My absolute favorite era of the band. Those songs were never played as well. I've got a number of boots from that tour and the band is so strong at that time.

Now, it's true without Ace and Pete, they may not have made it as big, but they certainly didn't need them to stay popular. And Bruce and Eric(s) are much more talented players than Ace or Pete have ever been.


CanadianMule - 2/28/2014 at 06:06 PM

Matt
If you think anything about KISS is R&B then discussing it with you is a waste of time. Just because Criss liked Little Richard doesn't make him good nor mean that he can play or sing it.

Goofs?

Well the guitar goof that you refer to had to play on the album because Ace sucks. That is like Brian Farmer playing on Mule albums instead of Warren.

Singer
Played with Black Sabbath
Lita Ford
Brian may
Alice Cooper
Gary Moore
Badlands
Paul Stanley
KISS
and many others.

That Goof is one of the more respected drummers out there.

You always skip points or questions. Who else wanted Criss in their band? How much success did he have outside KISS? Why could his band not sell out even tiny bars? I will save you the time of answering by stating the obvious - he stinks.

Ace and Peter were part of the original band and deserve to be in the HOF with them but to make it like Criss saved the band and was pivital at any point is again- comical.

You believe far too much TMZ type bull **** that you read on Wiki Matt. Ever meet the guy and watch him play in a small rehearsal space? Ace saved his ass by touring with their bands together as Criss could not get booked alone. They sucked so bad that Ace laughed.

You want to believe that Criss is an R&B star and flows like James Brown and Little Richard then you need to realize that KISS was a comic book band. With statements like that, you are the funniest guy on this forum.

You like him so cool but you can't make him something that he isn't. A good singer, drummer or songwriter.


gotdrumz - 2/28/2014 at 06:43 PM

Hey CM....

Eric Singer played on this too. Decent album, nothing exceptional



matt05 - 2/28/2014 at 09:45 PM

quote:
Matt
If you think anything about KISS is R&B then discussing it with you is a waste of time. Just because Criss liked Little Richard doesn't make him good nor mean that he can play or sing it.

Goofs?

Well the guitar goof that you refer to had to play on the album because Ace sucks. That is like Brian Farmer playing on Mule albums instead of Warren.

Singer
Played with Black Sabbath
Lita Ford
Brian may
Alice Cooper
Gary Moore
Badlands
Paul Stanley
KISS
and many others.

That Goof is one of the more respected drummers out there.

You always skip points or questions. Who else wanted Criss in their band? How much success did he have outside KISS? Why could his band not sell out even tiny bars? I will save you the time of answering by stating the obvious - he stinks.

Ace and Peter were part of the original band and deserve to be in the HOF with them but to make it like Criss saved the band and was pivital at any point is again- comical.

You believe far too much TMZ type bull **** that you read on Wiki Matt. Ever meet the guy and watch him play in a small rehearsal space? Ace saved his ass by touring with their bands together as Criss could not get booked alone. They sucked so bad that Ace laughed.

You want to believe that Criss is an R&B star and flows like James Brown and Little Richard then you need to realize that KISS was a comic book band. With statements like that, you are the funniest guy on this forum.

You like him so cool but you can't make him something that he isn't. A good singer, drummer or songwriter.





you are right and i am wrong. there is no logical reason why gene and paul have 2 guys dressed up as ace and peter. it isn't because thats what people want to see or that the band was the most successful from a ticket and album selling standpoint when its the 4 original guys. the reason ace and peter were asked to do the mid 90's reunion must be because gene and paul felt bad for them not because they knew thats the only way to sell out big venues again. glad gene and paul are so nice and their choices have nothing to do with what will make them the most money


CanadianMule - 2/28/2014 at 09:56 PM

They did it to make money and gain control of all rights which they now have. They will eventually replace themselves and still earn. They could not do that without the makeup.

You also just proved the point that Peter and Ace are not that important as people don't care who is wearing the kitty cat and spaceman makeup. Tickets are still selling and the other two are log gone. You are your own worst enemy here.

Plus KISS is about comic book fantasy. people dressing up like they dress up for Star Wars. The show makes up for mediocre songs. Always has.

You are a stubborn guy who is trying to prove something that can't be. Criss was in the right place at the right time and owes everything to the other three and to a larger degree Gene and Paul. Prove me wrong and tell me all about Peter's great career after KISS.

So


wease - 2/28/2014 at 11:08 PM

quote:
Prove me wrong and tell me all about Peter's great career after KISS.



Well, he did make the news for getting breast cancer.


matt05 - 2/28/2014 at 11:21 PM

quote:
They did it to make money and gain control of all rights which they now have. They will eventually replace themselves and still earn. They could not do that without the makeup.

You also just proved the point that Peter and Ace are not that important as people don't care who is wearing the kitty cat and spaceman makeup. Tickets are still selling and the other two are log gone. You are your own worst enemy here.

Plus KISS is about comic book fantasy. people dressing up like they dress up for Star Wars. The show makes up for mediocre songs. Always has.

You are a stubborn guy who is trying to prove something that can't be. Criss was in the right place at the right time and owes everything to the other three and to a larger degree Gene and Paul. Prove me wrong and tell me all about Peter's great career after KISS.

So


since they aren't selling out the same size venues as they did on the 90's reunion then someone cares who is wearing the makeup. also since peter and ace came up with their makeup designs in fact yes both guys are vital to the band since you pointed out gene and paul see someone has to wear the makeup design peter came up with.

how come gene simmons has been in kiss since day 1 and his solo album released a decade ago flopped? the same reason peter never had a solo career after kiss. it wasn't the style of music kiss fans want to hear and thats who it was marketed at. gene's album had ballads and songs written with frank zappa and the only songs that get positive comments by kiss fans are the ones that sound like kiss because they leftover from older kiss albums. kiss fans don't want to hear peter criss singing doo wop and ballads. most hardcore kiss fans don't even like "beth" so an album full of songs like that is not going to sell to the audience that the label tried to market it to. thats the reason ace has done decently well for himself outside of kiss is because he releases albums full of songs that could be on kiss albums not albums of jazz, doo wop, r&b, ballads etc.

if you read the reviews online from different sites the peter criss album that gets the most positive comments is the one from the mid 90's because it featured songs like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHmMXbxCAho

in fact its my opinion that the album that song comes off of is the worst written solo album peter has released but most of it sounds very kiss like.


CanadianMule - 3/1/2014 at 12:05 AM

They still play the arenas just like they did. Any fewer sales has nothing to do with members. It has to do with playing a decade long farewell tour. Sales are the same around here.

It has to do with the fact that the music is mediocre and people have seen KISS blow crap up many times by now. That and the fact that everyone sells less tickets in the entire industry.

Criss was in demand by no one and no band was dying to add his drum skills unlike the Goofs that you mention. Wonder why? Don't forget to line up for tickets to his sell out tours. His true R&B genius is in demand and he can dance like Michael Jackson. Stevie Wonder doesn't do a thing without consulting Criss.

You take KISS way too serious. They are a bunch of guys jumping around in makeup and sticking their tongues out. Slap on a KISS condom and have some fun. If Criss is lucky, they will give him a KISS coffin to be buried in and he can hear R&R All Nite for eternity.

Did you know that their comic was printed with real blood?

=Gene
=Paul
=Ace
=Peter


jfk2112 - 3/1/2014 at 12:40 AM

quote:
If Criss is lucky, they will give him a KISS coffin to be buried in and he can hear R&R All Nite for eternity.


Gene Simmons would never allow a donation of that magnitude, especially to Peter Criss.


matt05 - 3/1/2014 at 12:52 AM

quote:
They still play the arenas just like they did. Any fewer sales has nothing to do with members. It has to do with playing a decade long farewell tour. Sales are the same around here.

It has to do with the fact that the music is mediocre and people have seen KISS blow crap up many times by now. That and the fact that everyone sells less tickets in the entire industry.

Criss was in demand by no one and no band was dying to add his drum skills unlike the Goofs that you mention. Wonder why? Don't forget to line up for tickets to his sell out tours. His true R&B genius is in demand and he can dance like Michael Jackson. Stevie Wonder doesn't do a thing without consulting Criss.

You take KISS way too serious. They are a bunch of guys jumping around in makeup and sticking their tongues out. Slap on a KISS condom and have some fun. If Criss is lucky, they will give him a KISS coffin to be buried in and he can hear R&R All Nite for eternity.

Did you know that their comic was printed with real blood?

=Gene
=Paul
=Ace
=Peter


i think its still funny you equate r&b to certain thing. the who called themselves maximum r&b. at first the rolling stones were called r&b. the original music that was called r&b and what it became by the late 70's is not the same thing. eric singer was more or less a studio drummer who got to play in several bands. studio musicians are some of the most highly trained and skilled players out there but like i said no one wants to replace the rolling stones with members of toto or dream theater just because they play better. btw i did say several times peter criss was not the same drummer after 1979 that he was before that so i wouldn't doubt no one wants to hire a drummer struggling with drug and alcohol issues who was already past his peak.

hey why did the gregg allman/cher album flop? because thats not want cher or allman brothers fans wanted to hear. same with the peter criss albums, its just not want kiss fans wanted to hear


CanadianMule - 3/1/2014 at 02:50 AM

They flopped because they were **** as any album does.

Criss was a simple drummer before they ever got signed.

Maximum R&B was the name of the release.

For a studio drummer, I sure have seen Singer lots of times.

The Stones never replaced Richards with Beck because he wrote the damn songs. But they did bring in guitar players to handle the leads.

You are the only person alive that thinks KISS was a R&B band or even had elements of R&B.

But if it makes you happy. KISS is one of the greatest R&B bands of all time. Criss was a pioneer of drumming that all the greats looked up to. His drum roll on a snare with a phase shifter for 10 minutes out does Moby dick or Toad. He is one of the greatest R&B singers of all time. James Brown wished that Nothing To Lose was his song. Baby Driver and Hooligan are some of the greatest songs in rock's history. And I am not fooligan. KISS ended when he was gone the first time and the band's complete history is made up by Simmons and Stanley. Criss was the most sought after drummer of all time but he turned down all the offers including Zeppelin and The Who. They were just beneath his skill level. The HOF will induct Criss as a solo artist also.

You wanted the best, you got the best, the greatest R&B band in the land ......KISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.


matt05 - 3/1/2014 at 04:47 AM

quote:
They flopped because they were **** as any album does.

Criss was a simple drummer before they ever got signed.

Maximum R&B was the name of the release.

For a studio drummer, I sure have seen Singer lots of times.

The Stones never replaced Richards with Beck because he wrote the damn songs. But they did bring in guitar players to handle the leads.

You are the only person alive that thinks KISS was a R&B band or even had elements of R&B.

But if it makes you happy. KISS is one of the greatest R&B bands of all time. Criss was a pioneer of drumming that all the greats looked up to. His drum roll on a snare with a phase shifter for 10 minutes out does Moby dick or Toad. He is one of the greatest R&B singers of all time. James Brown wished that Nothing To Lose was his song. Baby Driver and Hooligan are some of the greatest songs in rock's history. And I am not fooligan. KISS ended when he was gone the first time and the band's complete history is made up by Simmons and Stanley. Criss was the most sought after drummer of all time but he turned down all the offers including Zeppelin and The Who. They were just beneath his skill level. The HOF will induct Criss as a solo artist also.

You wanted the best, you got the best, the greatest R&B band in the land ......KISSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.


maximum r&b was what the who called their style of music in the 60's. thats why its the name of the boxset.

its funny i never said "kiss is an r&b band". you always seem to take what i say and twist it around.

who is robert conte? he wrote the liner notes for the 1997 kiss remasters. i must be robert conte because in the liner notes conte directly calls the 1978 criss solo album a rhythm-and-blues achievement but says that the only track kiss fans expressed interest in was his cover of the rock n roll song "tossin and turnin". so why does conte call the album r&b? did someone pay him off to say that? again thats what r&b stands for is rhythm and blues.



[Edited on 3/1/2014 by matt05]


CanadianMule - 3/1/2014 at 05:16 AM

Everybody was wrong then. We all just thought his album was crap. We all stand corrected now. We just didn't see the genius of weak songs. Thanks to you and the guy paid, we now know. Criss was just ahead of his time. In 50 years, it will stand as the greatest album ever.

They also started each show stating they were the best. I thought it was just hype. Gonna go burn all other albums.


matt05 - 3/1/2014 at 05:21 AM

quote:
Everybody was wrong then. We all just thought his album was crap. We all stand corrected now. We just didn't see the genius of weak songs. Thanks to you and the guy paid, we now know. Criss was just ahead of his time. In 50 years, it will stand as the greatest album ever.

They also started each show stating they were the best. I thought it was just hype. Gonna go burn all other albums.


i know clearly kiss or the label paid this guy conte to hype things but i doubt they directly told him to call the criss solo album r&b. did you know in its early years disco was also called r&b?

[Edited on 3/1/2014 by matt05]


matt05 - 3/1/2014 at 08:53 AM

here is a great thread from the steve hoffman forum to show how much people loved peter criss:
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/peter-criss-terrible-drummer.292217/


wease - 3/1/2014 at 09:49 PM

Look dude. You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger KISS fan on this board, but at best, Pete is a mediocre drummer. He simply never had the chops that either of his successors have/had. Yes, he did prefer R and B to straight-ahead rock. He also liked jazz. Yes, you could hear those influences, but that in no way made him a great drummer or made KISS an R and B band. However, what he lacked in talent, he made up for with determination and faith that they would make it. Hell, that goes for all 4 of them. People bitch and miss Pete and Ace because that's what we all remember from when we were kids. We always think that the memories are better. Nostalgia is a powerful thing. But in this case, it's wrong.


The_Newt - 3/1/2014 at 11:59 PM

I'm not a fan of KISS or the members of the band at all but I do like Kim Fowley even if he is a bit different, and the Runaways.


JimSheridan - 3/2/2014 at 12:26 AM

To be fair, though, sometimes the guy with lesser chops just has the right sound or vibe. That is why I love Ace with Kiss. His leads were simple but memorable. His tone on "Alive" is right on.

The fact that he got too wasted to play well is unforgivable, obviously. I do understand that. His tone was not great when he was passed out!!!

I think about Bill Ward with Black Sabbath or Steven Adler with Guns'n'Roses. Both guys partied too hard, became erratic and unreliable, and got sacked in favor of more skilled replacements who never did bring the band the same certain X factor.


matt05 - 3/2/2014 at 12:48 AM

quote:
To be fair, though, sometimes the guy with lesser chops just has the right sound or vibe. That is why I love Ace with Kiss. His leads were simple but memorable. His tone on "Alive" is right on.

The fact that he got too wasted to play well is unforgivable, obviously. I do understand that. His tone was not great when he was passed out!!!

I think about Bill Ward with Black Sabbath or Steven Adler with Guns'n'Roses. Both guys partied too hard, became erratic and unreliable, and got sacked in favor of more skilled replacements who never did bring the band the same certain X factor.


and that is almost exactly every comment on the thread from the steve hoffman forum i posted. everyone says peter just had the right feel. everyone also points out that eric singer never plays the song "detroit rock city" properly which as someone who has seen both peter and eric play it is true. for some reason eric never gets that 1 song correct


matt05 - 3/3/2014 at 04:29 AM

btw most kiss fans and music industry people are saying gene and paul didn't want to perform with ace and peter at the hall of fame ceremony because the reaction to the original lineup would prove to paul and gene that the fans do care who is wearing the spaceman and catman makeup and could possibly hurt future ticket sales of the current kiss lineup.


wease - 3/3/2014 at 04:18 PM

quote:
quote:
To be fair, though, sometimes the guy with lesser chops just has the right sound or vibe. That is why I love Ace with Kiss. His leads were simple but memorable. His tone on "Alive" is right on.


and that is almost exactly every comment on the thread from the steve hoffman forum i posted. everyone says peter just had the right feel. everyone also points out that eric singer never plays the song "detroit rock city" properly which as someone who has seen both peter and eric play it is true. for some reason eric never gets that 1 song correct


Just for the record, Pete never played it live like he did in the studio. Ever.

I totally agree about having the "feel." The original four members are exactly what was needed at exactly the right time for that band to hit it big. If it was any other combination, I don't think they would have made it. I also think Gene and Paul have realized this as well.

As far as them playing the HoF, who knows why they decided not to. It's got to be pretty hard trying to please all the people all the time, and maybe they decided that would be next to impossible to do so they just decided to piss everyone off and not play.


matt05 - 3/3/2014 at 06:32 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
To be fair, though, sometimes the guy with lesser chops just has the right sound or vibe. That is why I love Ace with Kiss. His leads were simple but memorable. His tone on "Alive" is right on.


and that is almost exactly every comment on the thread from the steve hoffman forum i posted. everyone says peter just had the right feel. everyone also points out that eric singer never plays the song "detroit rock city" properly which as someone who has seen both peter and eric play it is true. for some reason eric never gets that 1 song correct


Just for the record, Pete never played it live like he did in the studio. Ever.

I totally agree about having the "feel." The original four members are exactly what was needed at exactly the right time for that band to hit it big. If it was any other combination, I don't think they would have made it. I also think Gene and Paul have realized this as well.

As far as them playing the HoF, who knows why they decided not to. It's got to be pretty hard trying to please all the people all the time, and maybe they decided that would be next to impossible to do so they just decided to piss everyone off and not play.


there had to be something more then just not getting along. gene and paul could have released a statement saying it was a one night only thing so that fans wouldn't get the wrong idea. honestly peter criss for sure just simply can not handle playing 3 nights a week for 2 hours anymore. he barely could 10 years ago. i know on the farewell tour gene always talked about how peter hand to dunk his arms in ice all the time and gets shots into his hands.


wease - 3/3/2014 at 08:15 PM

quote:
there had to be something more then just not getting along.


I don't think it has anything to do with gettng along with them. They've proven they can play with them and not get along with them. I think, bottom line, Gene and Paul didn't think Ace and Pete could play up to their level without some intense work and figured it wasn't worth it to just play a couple of songs with them.


matt05 - 3/3/2014 at 08:22 PM

quote:
quote:
there had to be something more then just not getting along.


I don't think it has anything to do with gettng along with them. They've proven they can play with them and not get along with them. I think, bottom line, Gene and Paul didn't think Ace and Pete could play up to their level without some intense work and figured it wasn't worth it to just play a couple of songs with them.


paul stanley struggles to sing but still gets up there. like i said many kiss fans are saying gene and paul were probably afraid it would hurt future ticket sales with the current lineup if the fans saw ace and peter back up there again and wanted another reunion


Zambi - 3/3/2014 at 09:44 PM

I think Gene & Paul should just play in makeup, have life-size dolls of Ace & Peter (in make-up) on-stage with them holding their respective instruments, and then have Anton Fig and Bob Kulick playing behind a thinly veiled curtain without any make-up on. That removes all of the drama and controversy of the non-makeup & current members of the band, and perfectly honors and respects the 'original' lineup and how they played on the recordings.


matt05 - 3/3/2014 at 11:03 PM

quote:
I think Gene & Paul should just play in makeup, have life-size dolls of Ace & Peter (in make-up) on-stage with them holding their respective instruments, and then have Anton Fig and Bob Kulick playing behind a thinly veiled curtain without any make-up on. That removes all of the drama and controversy of the non-makeup & current members of the band, and perfectly honors and respects the 'original' lineup and how they played on the recordings.


except kiss made 4 albums before some not in kiss played on it and it was a solo on destroyer played by dick wagner. the studio songs on alive 2 are really the first batch of songs by kiss to feature very little of peter and ace and one of the guitar players on that stuff was rick derringer. so late 1977 was when the studio guys started filling in 5 years after kiss started


wease - 3/4/2014 at 03:12 AM

I actually think that they had other players on Detroit Rock City. Gene and Pete were never been able to play it the same as on the record.


matt05 - 3/4/2014 at 03:06 PM

quote:
I actually think that they had other players on Detroit Rock City. Gene and Pete were never been able to play it the same as on the record.


its possible but i've never seen that info anywhere. the book that comes with the kiss boxset is where it has most of the playing credits 100% correct other than the stuff from the psycho circus album.


CanadianMule - 3/4/2014 at 03:35 PM

So 30+ years later, the CRISS Army is going to shut KISS down and Paul and Gene are worried about it? I'm sure they are sweating buckets. The guy played on 4 albums and then his own band replaces him in the studio and we debate his "abilities" and now you think the band fears the tremendous outlash from fans of a guy who was last booted 10 years ago? The CRISS ARMY are the slowest moving protest group in KISStory. Has been a member for only 10 years since the first album and that is counting lots of off time. Have they been mounting this attack since 1979?Imagine that KISS has survived this attack for 35 years and 30 of them without him. I think the CRISS Army need a new general are you up for it Matt?

Do you write this stuff as a joke or really buy into it?


matt05 - 3/4/2014 at 04:45 PM

quote:
So 30+ years later, the CRISS Army is going to shut KISS down and Paul and Gene are worried about it? I'm sure they are sweating buckets. The guy played on 4 albums and then his own band replaces him in the studio and we debate his "abilities" and now you think the band fears the tremendous outlash from fans of a guy who was last booted 10 years ago? The CRISS ARMY are the slowest moving protest group in KISStory. Has been a member for only 10 years since the first album and that is counting lots of off time. Have they been mounting this attack since 1979?Imagine that KISS has survived this attack for 35 years and 30 of them without him. I think the CRISS Army need a new general are you up for it Matt?

Do you write this stuff as a joke or really buy into it?



no it was a long discussion on eddie trunks radio show when ace called in. was so big in fact that the next day gene and paul issued statements that no version of the band would play the RNRHOF. most people calling in agreed gene and pauls decision has to be based on some financial projections about the impact it could have on future ticket sales to see the original 4 on stage again. eddie trunk mentioned it again on this weeks past episode of THAT METAL SHOW. i still think its funny 1996-2001 kiss had all 4 originals and were playing 15k-20k seat venues pretty much on their own unless in the late 90's you think ted nugent and skid row were huge draws. since then with just paul and gene the band has had to tour with aerosmith, motley crue and poison, bands that play sheds already, just to sell close to the same amount of tickets they were selling from 1996-2001. the revenge tour was actually the bands lowest selling tour as far as ticket sales per capacity of the venue are concerned.



btw peter criss plays on self titled, hotter than hell, dressed to kill, destroyer, rock n roll over, love gun, the 2 70's alive albums. by my count thats not 4 albums he plays on but 6 studio and 2 live. both genes book and peters book confirmed that peter criss played every part on every studio and live album until dynasty which was anton fig except on "diry livin" and after that only plays drums on 3 kiss songs "into the void", 1 other ace lead vocal song and 1 other song recorded in the late 90's but i can't recall which song gene said it was but it was either the kiss version of "it's my life" or the song that was on the soundtrack for the movie DETROIT ROCK CITY. criss also plays all the drums parts on ALIVE IV and the ALIVE 2000 live releases

[Edited on 3/4/2014 by matt05]


Bhawk - 3/4/2014 at 05:15 PM

Surprised to read about the deeper analysis regarding the depth of the drumming in Kiss, and that so many in their fan base are so serious about it. Here I would have thought that people still go see Kiss for the spectacle and fun while reliving their youth, to watch Paul Stanley strut around and Gene Simmons spit fire and blood, generally have a good time. Whoever knew there was something deeper? Hmmm. Learn something new every day.


matt05 - 3/4/2014 at 05:46 PM

quote:
Surprised to read about the deeper analysis regarding the depth of the drumming in Kiss, and that so many in their fan base are so serious about it. Here I would have thought that people still go see Kiss for the spectacle and fun while reliving their youth, to watch Paul Stanley strut around and Gene Simmons spit fire and blood, generally have a good time. Whoever knew there was something deeper? Hmmm. Learn something new every day.


i'm still waiting for canadianmule to post the proof he has that kiss was more popular when it was just paul and gene and peter and ace were not in the band. he clearly has the proof whether it is albums sales or tickets sales or what not but won't post it for some reason. we should have a poll. was kiss more popular from 1974-1980 and 1996-2001 or more popular in the non original members years?


CanadianMule - 3/4/2014 at 05:48 PM

quote:
Surprised to read about the deeper analysis regarding the depth of the drumming in Kiss, and that so many in their fan base are so serious about it. Here I would have thought that people still go see Kiss for the spectacle and fun while reliving their youth, to watch Paul Stanley strut around and Gene Simmons spit fire and blood, generally have a good time. Whoever knew there was something deeper? Hmmm. Learn something new every day.


Hey the kitty cat, spaceman, starchild and demon are some pretty serious sh*t.

Why the package tours? Umm because everyone does it as the industry has been hammered and few if any sell the same.

HOF? Maybe they don't want to play with guys who are not in the band anymore? What a concept! Perhaps they don't like them and are tired of giving them chances.

Imagine Ace and the CRISS ARMY taking it down after all this time. They did carry Gene and Paul for the last 40 years.

Funny I worked 4 shows of the Criss/Frehley tour and the BARS were only maybe half full. I guess those legions of fans were busy storming the KISS KIngdom's walls. And people thought Lord Of The Rings was a tale.


wease - 3/4/2014 at 05:59 PM

quote:
quote:
I actually think that they had other players on Detroit Rock City. Gene and Pete were never been able to play it the same as on the record.


its possible but i've never seen that info anywhere. the book that comes with the kiss boxset is where it has most of the playing credits 100% correct other than the stuff from the psycho circus album.


I've never seen it anywhere, either. I'm just basing it on the myriad of live shows I have listened to and the fact that neither Gene nor Pete ever played it like it was played in the studio.


matt05 - 3/4/2014 at 05:59 PM

quote:
quote:
Surprised to read about the deeper analysis regarding the depth of the drumming in Kiss, and that so many in their fan base are so serious about it. Here I would have thought that people still go see Kiss for the spectacle and fun while reliving their youth, to watch Paul Stanley strut around and Gene Simmons spit fire and blood, generally have a good time. Whoever knew there was something deeper? Hmmm. Learn something new every day.


Hey the kitty cat, spaceman, starchild and demon are some pretty serious sh*t.

Why the package tours? Umm because everyone does it as the industry has been hammered and few if any sell the same.

HOF? Maybe they don't want to play with guys who are not in the band anymore? What a concept! Perhaps they don't like them and are tired of giving them chances.

Imagine Ace and the CRISS ARMY taking it down after all this time. They did carry Gene and Paul for the last 40 years.

Funny I worked 4 shows of the Criss/Frehley tour and the BARS were only maybe half full. I guess those legions of fans were busy storming the KISS KIngdom's walls. And people thought Lord Of The Rings was a tale.


and when paul stanley did solo tours he played in small venues and when gene simmons was asked why he never did a solo tour his answer was he couldn't make any money playing in bars to 500 people a night.

funny kiss was selling big venues on the tours with the original 4 and then the bands very next tour needed aerosmith to sell out smaller venues. yes must have been the huge industry change that happened in the 1 year between tours.

also giving ace chances? he walked away from them 2 times on his own. was never booted or fired or had his contract not renewed so why would they have an issue with ace getting on stage with them if they never fired him? they are worried about the backlash from fans over a reunion not happening after the original 4 played together on stage. story is just that simple. gene and paul would rather no one play then to open the reunion can or worms again the way they did in the mid 90's when ace and peter were brought back for the unplugged stuff.

again please post the proof you have the kiss were bigger without peter and ace? not solo tours by former band members but actual kiss albums or tours that were more popular without those guys. i already now the bands highest charting album since the 70's was psycho circus which at the time was billed as the first album featuring all 4 original members since the 70's.


wease - 3/4/2014 at 06:05 PM

quote:
the revenge tour was actually the bands lowest selling tour as far as ticket sales per capacity of the venue are concerned.


Heavy metal in general felt this hit in 1992. Grunge was getting started and no one suffered more than the metal bands during this time. With the exceptions of Metallica and Guns 'n' Roses, ALL of the heavy metal bands took a hit at this point.


dougrhon - 3/4/2014 at 06:05 PM

I have to say having read this thread that this is the stupidest argument I have EVER read and that includes every other one that Canadien Mule has been involved in which is saying something. Don't mean to offend just calling it as I see it.


matt05 - 3/4/2014 at 06:08 PM

quote:
quote:
the revenge tour was actually the bands lowest selling tour as far as ticket sales per capacity of the venue are concerned.


Heavy metal in general felt this hit in 1992. Grunge was getting started and no one suffered more than the metal bands during this time. With the exceptions of Metallica and Guns 'n' Roses, ALL of the heavy metal bands took a hit at this point.


true to a point but i don't heavy metal was anymore popular in 1997 than it was in 1992.


wease - 3/4/2014 at 06:12 PM

quote:
they are worried about the backlash from fans over a reunion not happening after the original 4 played together on stage. story is just that simple. gene and paul would rather no one play then to open the reunion can or worms again the way they did in the mid 90's when ace and peter were brought back for the unplugged stuff.


This is simply mindreading and speculation. None of us know the exact reasons they elected not to play and won't until some statement iby Gene or Paul is ever made. And it probably won't be. For all we know, Ace and Pete said they wanted X anount of money for playing in it has nothing to do with Gene and Paul being afraid fandom would quit and demand another reunion. For you to say the "story is just that simple" is utter nonsense. Without them explicitly saying why, all we are left with is guesswork and suppositions.


matt05 - 3/4/2014 at 06:34 PM

quote:
quote:
they are worried about the backlash from fans over a reunion not happening after the original 4 played together on stage. story is just that simple. gene and paul would rather no one play then to open the reunion can or worms again the way they did in the mid 90's when ace and peter were brought back for the unplugged stuff.


This is simply mindreading and speculation. None of us know the exact reasons they elected not to play and won't until some statement iby Gene or Paul is ever made. And it probably won't be. For all we know, Ace and Pete said they wanted X anount of money for playing in it has nothing to do with Gene and Paul being afraid fandom would quit and demand another reunion. For you to say the "story is just that simple" is utter nonsense. Without them explicitly saying why, all we are left with is guesswork and suppositions.


i didn't know bands got paid to play at the HOF ceremony but if they did a 4 way split should have been fine by all parties since its 4 guys getting in


wease - 3/4/2014 at 08:00 PM

Oh, my god. Did you miss the whole point of my post or what?


CanadianMule - 3/4/2014 at 10:57 PM

quote:
I have to say having read this thread that this is the stupidest argument I have EVER read and that includes every other one that Canadien Mule has been involved in which is saying something. Don't mean to offend just calling it as I see it.


Well you would be an expert as many of the stupidest arguments have been with you. Your WHB won't last more than a couple of months debate. Your " Mule record will be out soon" debate. Warren Haynes is a shredder comedy and the priceless Mule shows are packed with women.

WHB lasted exactly as I said. Mule record took exactly as long as I said and it all still pisses you off years later. Warren absolutely laughed at the concept of him being a "shredder". The difference being that I constantly told you that the source was Warren and yet you still argued. Matt wouldn't do that.

Matt bases his beliefs on at least some facts. He is passionate and loves music which I can respect. You just make crap up that you want to believe and then state it as fact.

Besides stupid debates with me, you have had plenty with others also and do the same thing. Have yet to see you come out on top of even one stupid debate. Poor record indeed. No offence intended. Just the facts Jack.


matt05 - 3/5/2014 at 05:09 AM

quote:
quote:
I have to say having read this thread that this is the stupidest argument I have EVER read and that includes every other one that Canadien Mule has been involved in which is saying something. Don't mean to offend just calling it as I see it.


Well you would be an expert as many of the stupidest arguments have been with you. Your WHB won't last more than a couple of months debate. Your " Mule record will be out soon" debate. Warren Haynes is a shredder comedy and the priceless Mule shows are packed with women.

WHB lasted exactly as I said. Mule record took exactly as long as I said and it all still pisses you off years later. Warren absolutely laughed at the concept of him being a "shredder". The difference being that I constantly told you that the source was Warren and yet you still argued. Matt wouldn't do that.

Matt bases his beliefs on at least some facts. He is passionate and loves music which I can respect. You just make crap up that you want to believe and then state it as fact.

Besides stupid debates with me, you have had plenty with others also and do the same thing. Have yet to see you come out on top of even one stupid debate. Poor record indeed. No offence intended. Just the facts Jack.


warren is not a shredder

peter criss has not been able to handle the drums for an entire tour at a respectable level every single night since the 70's. he somehow made it through all the reunion stuff but had lots of off nights. doesn't change the passion the fans have for the original lineup or the fact gene and paul are acting like asses about the hof. kiss is getting in for the stuff they did in the 70's with the original lineup not the stuff in the 80's like "lets put the x in sex".

also there is a great read with the producer of the first peter criss solo album released after he left kiss. the producer even commented that the record company heard the first single, thought it was great and then made a comment that no fan of kiss would buy an album that contains a song like that and then the label pretty much chose to cut their losses because they thought that style wasn't going to sell. i still happen to think he has a great voice and great solo stuff its just not what kiss fans want to hear.


Fretsman - 3/5/2014 at 03:28 PM

I love Ace, It's the only KISS era I've cared about, He's a unique player. I've grown to detest the Demon & Starchild.


dougrhon - 3/5/2014 at 06:09 PM

quote:
quote:
I have to say having read this thread that this is the stupidest argument I have EVER read and that includes every other one that Canadien Mule has been involved in which is saying something. Don't mean to offend just calling it as I see it.


Well you would be an expert as many of the stupidest arguments have been with you. Your WHB won't last more than a couple of months debate. Your " Mule record will be out soon" debate. Warren Haynes is a shredder comedy and the priceless Mule shows are packed with women.

WHB lasted exactly as I said. Mule record took exactly as long as I said and it all still pisses you off years later. Warren absolutely laughed at the concept of him being a "shredder". The difference being that I constantly told you that the source was Warren and yet you still argued. Matt wouldn't do that.

Matt bases his beliefs on at least some facts. He is passionate and loves music which I can respect. You just make crap up that you want to believe and then state it as fact.

Besides stupid debates with me, you have had plenty with others also and do the same thing. Have yet to see you come out on top of even one stupid debate. Poor record indeed. No offence intended. Just the facts Jack.


Yes indeed. That is why you have fierce arguments with each and every person you interact with. You have never been wrong about anything and everyone else is a stupid fool. I have no intention whatsoever of engaging you by demionstrating how absurdly wrong you were about the future of Gov't Mule and the feelings of Warren towards that band. Live and be well.


matt05 - 3/5/2014 at 06:12 PM

i don't really think canadianmule was having an argument. he is right that peter criss is the worst of the 3 drummers kiss had. he is right peter criss was never successful outside of kiss. i still hear the r&b influence he brought to kiss but its true a majority of his songs were usually the weaker songs on the albums. he was however in the bad during the most successful era's and he did have the right feel for the material they were doing in the 70's.


Zambi - 3/5/2014 at 08:37 PM

My earlier comments were absurd reflecting the absurdity of what Gene & Paul have done to what should be a great evening in honor of them and their fans, and if anything Gene & Paul's position would likely result in more backlash than any gained support (although admittedly it probably will have no effect whatsoever on their current success or lack thereof). But if they are so damn concerned about preserving ownership of the Cat and Spaceman personas then why not just do something more informal and play w/ Ace & Peter without makeup like they did with the MTV Unplugged way back when? I know that did lead to the reunion, but if they just had fun playing together with the original 4 in street clothes and no makeup then that's a lot easier for Gene & Paul to push back on when fans start clamoring for another reunion or endless media questions. Simple answer: "no, that was a one-off just to have fun with those that started this whole thing and there's nothing more to it."

Would it be what the fans really want with the original 4 in costumes and grease paint? Of course not. But it would be a lot less of an insult to their fans than taking their ball and going home, and it probably would've generated some positive buzz that Gene & Paul could leverage into the next Kiss farewell tour with Singer and Thayer in costume. Instead, the controversy they've created is mostly negative (despite the "all press is good press"). And if they did play together without the makeup, and not letting Ace & Peter "dress out", then from Gene & Paul's perspective it would preserve the characters as theirs (Gene's & Paul's) and not allude to future collaborations with Ace & Peter or that they're re-joining the band.

Really, this whole thing is so stupid. All because of the total lack of class from Gene & Paul.

[Edited on 3/5/2014 by Zambi]


IPowrie - 3/5/2014 at 09:07 PM

Only good that came out of KISS is the movie Detroit Rock City and that song.


Zambi - 3/5/2014 at 09:52 PM

And Kiss Meets the Phantom of the Park. Actually... surprised Gene & Paul haven't tried to use Singer/Thayer and Ace/Peter in some way as an anniversary for Phantom of the Park. It's almost too good not to. They could sell tons of VHS leftover inventory.


CanadianMule - 3/5/2014 at 10:57 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
I have to say having read this thread that this is the stupidest argument I have EVER read and that includes every other one that Canadien Mule has been involved in which is saying something. Don't mean to offend just calling it as I see it.


Well you would be an expert as many of the stupidest arguments have been with you. Your WHB won't last more than a couple of months debate. Your " Mule record will be out soon" debate. Warren Haynes is a shredder comedy and the priceless Mule shows are packed with women.

WHB lasted exactly as I said. Mule record took exactly as long as I said and it all still pisses you off years later. Warren absolutely laughed at the concept of him being a "shredder". The difference being that I constantly told you that the source was Warren and yet you still argued. Matt wouldn't do that.

Matt bases his beliefs on at least some facts. He is passionate and loves music which I can respect. You just make crap up that you want to believe and then state it as fact.

Besides stupid debates with me, you have had plenty with others also and do the same thing. Have yet to see you come out on top of even one stupid debate. Poor record indeed. No offence intended. Just the facts Jack.


Yes indeed. That is why you have fierce arguments with each and every person you interact with. You have never been wrong about anything and everyone else is a stupid fool. I have no intention whatsoever of engaging you by demionstrating how absurdly wrong you were about the future of Gov't Mule and the feelings of Warren towards that band. Live and be well.


This is pretty funny coming from a guy who entered a thread, made no comment on the topic or debate and tosses insults at me. Pretty sure that you came looking which is never a suprise from you. You were so wrong that you ended up looking foolish to even yourself and it pisses you off.

You couldn't engage me on all that crap if you wanted to. Even after hearing that it came from Warren himself, you kept going and you still are.

Your claim was WHB would last a very short period and then they were going to record a Mule album. - Wrong. My claim if the ticket sales and album sales are decent then they add shows and keep going. Right.

That the Mule would be recording and releasing an album quickly. You were wrong. I said upwards of two years. Right. All the while telling you it came from Warren. so imagine the suprise when I was right. And you would still debate it?

Now besides trolling for some more crap, do you have anything to add to the topic here? Or was your sole purpose to just argue with me? You must be lonely. Hey all your regular arguing buddies are just waiting to kick your ass again on the WP.

Now back to the topic.

If inducted to the HOF now, would the ABB play with Dickey and would he join them?

G&R?
Deep Purple
Pink Floyd

The list goes on and on. It happens all the time and is no different for KISS. Ace and Peter are not members of the band.


wease - 3/5/2014 at 11:25 PM

You left off Van Halen.


CanadianMule - 3/5/2014 at 11:29 PM

quote:
You left off Van Halen.


As I said. it is a long list.


matt05 - 3/5/2014 at 11:43 PM

you make a good point that there are lots of bands with long lists of members who have come and gone. it would be different though if the HOF was inducting he original 4 plus eric carr, vinnie vincent, bruce kulick, eric singer and tommy thayer since they all contributed a lot to the long career of kiss, sorry no mark st john, but the HOF is basically saying what kiss did after the 70's is not worthy of HOF status and for that everyone should have set aside their differences and taken the time to play 3 songs together


matt05 - 3/5/2014 at 11:50 PM

quote:
My earlier comments were absurd reflecting the absurdity of what Gene & Paul have done to what should be a great evening in honor of them and their fans, and if anything Gene & Paul's position would likely result in more backlash than any gained support (although admittedly it probably will have no effect whatsoever on their current success or lack thereof). But if they are so damn concerned about preserving ownership of the Cat and Spaceman personas then why not just do something more informal and play w/ Ace & Peter without makeup like they did with the MTV Unplugged way back when? I know that did lead to the reunion, but if they just had fun playing together with the original 4 in street clothes and no makeup then that's a lot easier for Gene & Paul to push back on when fans start clamoring for another reunion or endless media questions. Simple answer: "no, that was a one-off just to have fun with those that started this whole thing and there's nothing more to it."

Would it be what the fans really want with the original 4 in costumes and grease paint? Of course not. But it would be a lot less of an insult to their fans than taking their ball and going home, and it probably would've generated some positive buzz that Gene & Paul could leverage into the next Kiss farewell tour with Singer and Thayer in costume. Instead, the controversy they've created is mostly negative (despite the "all press is good press"). And if they did play together without the makeup, and not letting Ace & Peter "dress out", then from Gene & Paul's perspective it would preserve the characters as theirs (Gene's & Paul's) and not allude to future collaborations with Ace & Peter or that they're re-joining the band.

Really, this whole thing is so stupid. All because of the total lack of class from Gene & Paul.

[Edited on 3/5/2014 by Zambi]


if you read the books by gene, peter and ace the reunion was already being worked out when the mtv unplugged concert happened. peter was actually brought up to perform with the band months before that at a kiss convention. mtv unplugged was sorta a test out the waters thing


JimSheridan - 3/6/2014 at 03:46 AM

FWIW, to those who say that Kiss was all make-up and pyro and not the music, that is kind of like saying that Pink Floyd was all light show and inflatable pigs.

Both bands made music that appealed to very large audiences that never ever saw them live.

I think Kiss "Alive" has as many catchy riff-rockers as any album by Aerosmith or AC/DC.

Obviously Kiss has no virtuosos, but they don't intend to. They don't need any. That's not what they do. Musically, they come from the "Chuck Berry to the Stones to 70's riff rock" thread, not the "Coltrane to the ABB to the jam band" thread.


CanadianMule - 3/6/2014 at 05:08 AM

I can picture a 20 minute God Of Thunder>She>God Of Thunder.


WharfRat - 3/6/2014 at 01:16 PM

100,000 Years on Alive! is 12:10


wease - 3/6/2014 at 03:04 PM

Yeah, but it contains a fantastic drum solo.


jszfunk - 3/27/2014 at 11:59 AM



http://eddietrunk.com/rolling-stone-posts-their-kiss-cover-story-online-hig hlights-posted-here/

All that’s missing from Gene Simmons’ home office is a cash register. He has stuffed a wing of his otherwise tasteful Beverly Hills mansion with Kiss merchandise, turning it into a shrine to his favorite guy, Gene Simmons, and the band for which he’s spent 40 lucrative years playing bass, breathing fire, spitting blood and waggling a tongue so freakish he’s had to deny grafting it from some unlucky cow. There are thousands of KISS things in his lair, overflowing from glass cases: Halloween masks; life-size busts of the band members’ heads; dolls; action figures; coffee mugs; motorcycle helmets; plates; blankets; demonic Mr. Potato Heads; sneakers; bibs; a bowling ball.

On one wall is a plaque commemorating 100 million Kiss albums sold worldwide. “This room,” says Simmons, adding extra portentousness to his baritone, “didn’t happen by accident.”

KISS still tour. But the only original members left are Simmons and the band’s frontman, Paul Stanley…Drummer Peter Criss and lead guitarist Ace Frehley, the ones who took the whole party-every-day thing to heart, who crashed sports cars and threw furniture out of hotel windows, are long gone. You can sometimes catch Simmons and Stanley talking about their old bandmates with distant fondness, as if they were parked in their very own KISS Kaskets, rather than living quiet lives in New Jersey and San Diego.

When he’s not slinging button-pushing, right-wing lectures (he claims that the Vietnam War was a great idea), Simmons can slip into boastful defensiveness, but there’s something puppyish beneath it all, as if he’s daring you to like him. “All the credible bands can kiss my ass, with all due respect,” he says, apropos of not much, within three minutes of my arrival. “The original forefathers who are now in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame – and I don’t mean the disco or the hip-hop artists, what the **** are they thinking? – couldn’t spell the word ‘credibility’ and never thought about it. It was an antithesis of the self-imposed mandate, which is, ‘Do what you want to do.’ In other words, no rules.”

In April, KISS themselves will finally be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, 15 years after they first became eligible. The band members share a distrust of the institution, which represents a rock establishment that long dismissed [the band] as lowbrow purveyors of gimmickry – presumably in contrast to the dignity and reserve of a berouged Little Richard screaming nonsense syllables. “The most important thing,” says Simmons, “is that it’s validation for fans who were picked on for liking KISS as opposed to, I don’t know, Air Supply.”

The Hall of Fame ceremony could have included a heartwarming reunion of the original lineup, but maybe that kind of thing is for hippies. Instead, Simmons and Stanley insisted on playing as the current KISS, with guitarist Tommy Thayer and drummer Eric Singer. “We heard, ‘We would like Ace and Peter in makeup,’” says Stanley. “And we said, ‘That’s not going to happen.’ That band is long gone. I question what Ace and Peter would look like in those outfits. We’ve spent 40 years building something, and to dissipate what we’ve done, or confuse it by sending mixed messages? What we offered was to play with Tommy and Eric and then bring out Ace and Peter to play with us.”

Criss and Frehley were so insulted by that proposition that they threatened to boycott the ceremony. “I won’t be disrespected,” Criss says, sitting in his New Jersey home. “How can you put me in the Hall of Fame and then tell me to sit over there in the corner while another guy puts on my makeup and plays? That’s an injustice. To the fans, too.”

Stanley was affronted by the Hall’s refusal to induct any of the musicians who played with KISS after the original guys (several lead guitarists, plus two drummers: Singer and Criss’ original replacement, the late Eric Carr). “I don’t need the Hall of Fame,” says Stanley. “And if there’s not reciprocity, I’m not interested. The Red Hot Chili Peppers, practically every member was inducted, and virtually all 175 members of the Grateful Dead. Rules need to apply to everybody.”

Simmons, meanwhile, says that Frehley and Criss “no longer deserve to wear the paint.” “The makeup is earned,” he adds. “Just being there at the beginning is not enough. You know, quite honestly, my hand to God? I would have preferred the same lineup all these years. But if I **** up, I should be tossed out. And if you blow it for yourself, it’s your fault. You can’t blame your band members. ‘Oh, look what happened to me. Oh, poor me.’ Look at my little violin. I have no sympathy.”

Hanging out in his San Diego condo, Frehley says that the resistance to a reunion is all business: After all, the current lineup has a summer tour planned. “The reason they don’t want to perform with me and Peter,” he says, “is because the last time they did, they had to do a reunion tour. We play three songs, the fans go crazy. They don’t want to open up a can of worms.”

Frehley and Criss may not get the performance they want, but it looks like they won’t have to see anyone else in their makeup. Outmaneuvered, for once, Stanley and Simmons announced in late February that they wouldn’t perform at all.

[Paul] Stanley comes off as friendly and warm, though he can be chillingly blunt in assessing his old bandmates. But if you believe Criss and Frehley, he is a Dick Cheney-like figure in KISS, the real power behind a flashier figurehead. “Pauly’s the one you’ve got to watch for,” says Criss. “He’ll leave this building, and then you’ll go, ‘Holy **** ing **** , he cut my throat.’ He really is the leader of KISS. He’s the guy who pulls the strings – trust me.”

“I know two people who demonize me,” he says. “It’s funny, because I don’t know anyone else who does. I can’t possibly be responsible for those guys’ situations or failures. Any more than I can make someone else responsible for mine.”

Stanley does agree that Simmons’ prominence as a band spokesman is misleading. “Gene’s makeup is the face of KISS,” he says. “It’s the strongest. But the idea that he’s the motivating force in the band – that’s only believed by people who don’t know the band.”

Once Frehley was out of KISS, it was up to Simmons and Stanley to keep the band alive – and Simmons was busy pursuing an acting career and other projects, including managing Liza Minnelli’s career. Stanley felt abandoned. “And it wasn’t like he was making Gone With the Wind,” he says. “Some of it was more like passing wind! But what I resented was just being informed and then working to his plan. It didn’t seem fair.” He considers KISS’ 1984 album, Animalize, close to a Paul Stanley solo album. “I could deal with that. What I couldn’t deal with was that somebody wanted to be paid for not doing their job. If it applied to Ace and Peter, it applies to Gene, too.”

He laughs when he hears that Simmons played me some of the very un-KISS-like ballads he writes for fun. “Gene loves the sound of his own voice,” he says.

Presented with a list of Stanley’s beefs with him, Simmons simply pleads guilty. “The luckiest break I ever got was meeting Paul Stanley,” he says. “Who hated me when he first met me – thought I was arrogant. True! Self-absorbed. True! Guilty as charged. Thinks that he’s better than he actually is. Guilty as charged. And yet something in that mixture between us – you know they say that purebred dogs are retarded. It is the differences in things that make something stronger.”

When I ask Stanley if the two men have ever sat down to work out their differences, he’s genuinely confused. “I’m curious?.?.?.?what’s there to work out?” he says. “The fact that we have 40-plus years between us means we worked it out.”

[While I was at Simmons' residence], Paul Stanley [dropped by], bringing by a copy of his book – he hadn’t let Simmons read it, but heard I was asking about it, and figured it was time. Simmons is delighted to see him; it’s clearly been a while since he came over. “Do you want a drink?” Simmons asks.

“I gotta go home and give my kids a bath,” says Stanley, handing over the book.

Simmons flips to the pictures at the centerfold. “Oh, my God,” he says, “look at this photo of Ace and Peter. Where was that?”

“The one satisfaction those two guys should get in life is knowing that every day, we talk about them,” says Stanley. “A day can’t go by that you don’t remember something that is astonishing.”

“Or makes no sense!” Simmons adds. “And is completely baffling, or so self-destructive.” (There was, for instance, the time Ace gulped a bottle of perfume in a limo, after hearing it contained alcohol. And the time Criss shot the big-screen TV in Simmons’ house with a .38 revolver after learning his girlfriend had slept with an actor shown on the screen.)

It seems clear that there’s at least one person Simmons wants as a friend. They’ve been together so long, and even Simmons isn’t egotistical enough to think they can tour forever. “Physically, I won’t be able to do this into my seventies,” he says. He has me lift a spiked leather stage jacket from a nearby chair – it must weigh 25 pounds. “I’m 64 now. Three more tours. Two, if I have a life change of some kind.” He and Stanley do, however, talk about replacing themselves with new members and having KISS continue to the end of time.

“Sometimes,” he says, “when I come out and sit out there, just relax between meetings and stuff, Paul’s right: I keep thinking about Ace and Peter. ‘What are they doing now? Where are they?’ It’s gotta be close to the end. How do you make any money? How do you pay your bills? I mean, it’s gotta be?.?.?. you’re in your sixties. Peter’s gotta be 67, 68. I think he’s 68 now. That’s it. You’re done.”

Each member of KISS had designed his own makeup. Criss relinquished the rights to his character when he left (although he’s confused about the circumstances), and Frehley maintains that he licensed his. He says he’s due to get the rights back soon, a claim Stanley called a “fantasy”: “We own it. He sold it.” In the meantime, Thayer, who once worked as the band’s road manager, wears Frehley’s makeup. Says Frehley: “I mean, a supergroup has one of the most dynamic, greatest lead guitarists in the world leave the band, and who did they hire to play lead guitar? Their road manager, who used to be in a KISS cover band. How insane is that? You can’t make this **** up.” He is, in general, unimpressed with the band’s current state: “Paul’s voice is shot.” (Thayer, whose KISS cover band was just a goofy side project while he was in a major-label metal band, responds, “These guys like to say, ‘Oh, he was the road manager.’ I’ve been in music for over 30 years.”)

The band’s current drummer, Eric Singer, points out that Frehley never complained during the portion of the reunion era that had him playing with Singer – in full Catman makeup – instead of Criss. “Well, Peter sold his makeup,” Frehley says with a shrug.

On some tours, Singer has even sung a version of Beth, which breaks original drummer [Peter] Criss’ heart. “How much more can you slap me?” he says. “How hard do you want to hit me? It’s my baby – no one sings it like me. And I said to Gigi, ‘You know what, it’s like the Lone Ranger: You can take his mask off and put it on another guy, but it’ll never be Clayton Moore.’”


Zambi - 3/27/2014 at 02:52 PM

That was a great read. Thanks for posting that here. Peter and Ace do prove Gene's point about the whining and bitching. That's what they sound like. They have a good point about it being insulting to be asked to sit in the corner and watch 2 other guys playing in their costumes and then join them for a song. Can't blame them for rejecting that idea.

Ace really is in fantasy land though. He describes the original lineup as a "supergroup" (or was he misquoted there?) and himself as "one of the most dynamic, greatest lead guitarists in the world". I actually thought he was talking about Bruce Kulick (if in the context of KISS) until he mentions being replaced by Thayer and only then did I realize he was talking about himself. What a jokester.

And the part about Ace playing with Singer in the cat makeup does make their argument (at least coming from Ace) ring a bit hollow.

Still think the original 4 ought to just play together sans makeup, but if Gene & Paul won't do that then I do hope Ace & Peter will play with Paul Schaeffer's band or something. Like Hagar & Anthony did at the Van Halen induction a few years ago.


The_Newt - 3/27/2014 at 05:49 PM

I'm not a fan of KISS but I do like Kim Fowley even if it's what people would call odd, and the runaways.


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