Thread: Warren and The Dead

jerryphilbob - 5/15/2013 at 07:36 PM

It seems odd to me that some in the Dead community don't like Warren in the band? To me, they aren't the Dead without him. There is a reason the Garcia foundation chose Warren to do these symphony concerts around the country to represent Jerry Garcia. Really, who else could have filled this role any better than Warren? I mean, I get it. Nobody can replace Jerry. But come on? I would think they would have some respect for Warren in that he doesn't try to be "fake jerry".

I love the way that Waren can take a song and stick to its roots, and still make it his own all at the same time. On top of that, he transcends so many musical styles. There are some songs vocally that don't really do it for me when Warren sings the Dead, and I get that. But to totally dismiss him is just plain nuts to me. I really wish I was catching one of these symphony performances, the timing just won't work and he really isn't coming anywhere remotely close to Indy.

I really hope that the core 4 can figure it out and give us one more tour


BIGV - 5/15/2013 at 07:59 PM

quote:
To me, they aren't the Dead without him.


To me?... The Dead died in August of 1995 with the passing of Jerry Garcia. They haven't been the Dead since that day, no matter who takes the lead. A matter of respect and no disrespect meant towards WH.


slothrop8 - 5/15/2013 at 08:27 PM

I loved Warren's approach to the Dead catalogue as a Phil and Friends member from '99-'03. Starting in '04 with The Dead and especially in the '09 - I thought he really changed his approach - he played a lot of Wah Wah licks, and was very, very restrained - especially in '09. The playing was tasteful and perfectly executed - but lacked fire. Some of that was no doubt due to the limitations of some of the other band members - the drummers were terrible in '04 I thought - and I think Weir really impacted the tempos (slowed down) and the jams (cut short) in '09. Most concerning to me is a lot of that over-reliance on the wah wah sounds and even a little lack of fire carried on to the Phil Lesh Quintet reunion shows this past year - shows that Jimmy Herring really saved/carried.
I'd like to see Warren play more like he does with the Mule/ABB when he plays with Phil/The Dead - maybe some of the Dead catalogue doesn't call for the aggression that Warren displays with the ABB/Mule - but I'd like to see him find the happy medium and get back to the way her played in some of the early days of the PLQ.

Vocally he's always outstanding - that's never an issue - and he should sing every Jerry song every time he plays with the Dead offshoot.

[Edited on 5/15/2013 by slothrop8]

[Edited on 5/16/2013 by slothrop8]


Samntuck - 5/15/2013 at 09:39 PM

I have 6 extra tickets to see Warren Haynes play the music of Jerry Garcia at Red Rocks on 7-30-13

These are great seats in the 16 row center. These tickets are actual hard tickets and are Face Value. If anyone is interested please call me.

847-409-7500 cell#


abbfan47 - 5/15/2013 at 10:44 PM


I'm a semi Grateful Dead fan. Have a lot of there Live Stuff. I've always thought Warren was just
TOO good of a musician to be wasting his time with them. Phil and Friends also.

I'd just like to see Warren focus on the ABB, Gov't Mule and his Solo career.
In my opinion, The Dead and Phil and Friends aren't even in Warren's league.



slothrop8 - 5/15/2013 at 11:17 PM

quote:

I'm a semi Grateful Dead fan. Have a lot of there Live Stuff. I've always thought Warren was just
TOO good of a musician to be wasting his time with them. Phil and Friends also.

I'd just like to see Warren focus on the ABB, Gov't Mule and his Solo career.
In my opinion, The Dead and Phil and Friends aren't even in Warren's league.





Now that's a bold statement. The Dead by the time Warren got to them in the 2000s - I'd agree Bobby and the Drummers were no longer at Warren's level. But Phil Lesh is still a monster - and Warren has been part of some amazing Phil & Friends lineup - including one recently with Lesh, John Scofield, John Medeski, and Joe Russo where you could (though I wouldn't) make a compelling argument that Warren was the weakest link. I definitely hope Warren continues to find time to play with Phil in different combinations whenever his insane schedule allows.


RobJohnson - 5/16/2013 at 12:14 AM

I've always felt pretty much the same way you do, jpb. I would think any sane Deadhead would look at Warren as a tremendous blessing in their world, and many do, but I'm always scratching my head over how many people in that scene seem to actively dislike Warren. It's not just that they don't appreciate Dr. Haynes the way we do--they HATE him and consider him a detriment to any Dead-related project.

abbfan47 said this...

"In my opinion, The Dead and Phil and Friends aren't even in Warren's league."

I'm assuming you are talking about the post-Jerry version of "The Dead." If so, in my opinion, The Dead aren't even in Phil and Friends league Two very different beasts, to put it mildly.

Recent incarnations of The Dead have had to play down to Bobby's level, which is a shame on multiple levels, but the "Phil Lesh Quintet" with Warren and Jimmy Herring produced some of the finest, most wide-open playing of Warren's career. I just can't see that band as a waste of Warren's time.


abbfan47 - 5/16/2013 at 02:57 AM

quote:
quote:

I'm a semi Grateful Dead fan. Have a lot of there Live Stuff. I've always thought Warren was just
TOO good of a musician to be wasting his time with them. Phil and Friends also.

I'd just like to see Warren focus on the ABB, Gov't Mule and his Solo career.
In my opinion, The Dead and Phil and Friends aren't even in Warren's league.





Now that's a bold statement. The Dead by the time Warren got to them in the 2000s - I'd agree Bobby and the Drummers were no longer at Warren's level. But Phil Lesh is still a monster - and Warren has been part of some amazing Phil & Friends lineup - including one recently with Lesh, John Scofield, John Medeski, and Joe Russo where you could (though I wouldn't) make a compelling argument that Warren was the weakest link. I definitely hope Warren continues to find time to play with Phil in different combinations whenever his insane schedule allows.



Just my opinion. Wasn't trying to start any crap


stormyrider - 5/16/2013 at 05:53 AM

quote:

If so, in my opinion, The Dead aren't even in Phil and Friends league Two very different beasts, to put it mildly.

Recent incarnations of The Dead have had to play down to Bobby's level, which is a shame on multiple levels, but the "Phil Lesh Quintet" with Warren and Jimmy Herring produced some of the finest, most wide-open playing of Warren's career. I just can't see that band as a waste of Warren's time.


agreed.
I was sitting behind the stage at the PSU show in 08. Warren started to play a solo and Bobby waved him off. I enjoyed that show mainly because I was just listening to Phil all night - the band itself didn't gel. The highlight of that set, imo, was Unbroken Chain, when Warren finally got to play.

PLQ and P&F at Mountain Jam a few years ago with Warren and Sco were both fantastic.

Even though the Furthur show at the Orpheum I went to was very good, in general I wouldn't pay to hear Bobby.
Phil continues to put out high quality music, regardless of who he is playing with


heineken515 - 5/16/2013 at 01:15 PM

quote:
I was sitting behind the stage at the PSU show in 08. Warren started to play a solo and Bobby waved him off.


This "incident" has always stuck in my mind since I heard it..maybe from you or others that saw it.

To me it speaks volumes about Warren "playin in the band" or maybe not, I don't know.


dadof2 - 5/16/2013 at 01:27 PM

To me,there was one Grateful Dead and that officially ended in 1995,although that group was greatly diminished by the end of the 80's.

Further is a cover band,complete with a pretend Jerry-an ok band but imitators too often featuring Weir who has lost most of the abilities he had during the best GD years.

The Dead,as stated here were also weak,adding little to the mix.

Phil has done a fine job of putting together great and interesting bands(like Warren,Scofield,Greene,Herring,Campbell,etc.) and they interpret rather than imitate the songs.

None of it can ever compare to the real thing,and nothing covered today can compare to the GD between 68-74,76 & 77!


GeorgiaSouthern - 5/16/2013 at 01:43 PM

I've been a long time Dead fan with 30 shows since '81 and I've been turned off by Weir and Lesh lately to the point where I won't see any additional Furthur shows. Lord help me if I hear another Corina! I have heard of other shows like the PSU show where maybe Weather Report Suite is "not to Bob's liking" and Weir throws up his arms in disbelief. To me Weir is a drama queen - gets on stage and begins posturing - look Bob you are only a Rythym guitarist ..don't kid yourself. Warren really carries the band with his blistering solo's and strong vox. Phil is a great musician and I love Phill and Friends. There is a sense with Furthur that their presence on stage is enough. The Allmans are great musicians and most importantly selfless, the music is still fresh. Derek has made me stop in my tracks more than a few times - and I've played guitar for 25 years. Jerry was it - inventive solo's and great song writing. Bob and Phil are not taking the music to new places - mostly rehash same stuff, only slower with Bob weighing it down. New name for Furthur should be Slowur...


dougrhon - 5/16/2013 at 04:25 PM

quote:
quote:

I'm a semi Grateful Dead fan. Have a lot of there Live Stuff. I've always thought Warren was just
TOO good of a musician to be wasting his time with them. Phil and Friends also.

I'd just like to see Warren focus on the ABB, Gov't Mule and his Solo career.
In my opinion, The Dead and Phil and Friends aren't even in Warren's league.





Now that's a bold statement. The Dead by the time Warren got to them in the 2000s - I'd agree Bobby and the Drummers were no longer at Warren's level. But Phil Lesh is still a monster - and Warren has been part of some amazing Phil & Friends lineup - including one recently with Lesh, John Scofield, John Medeski, and Joe Russo where you could (though I wouldn't) make a compelling argument that Warren was the weakest link. I definitely hope Warren continues to find time to play with Phil in different combinations whenever his insane schedule allows.


The Q with Jimmy Herring was definitely a great vehicle for Warren to showcase his talents. The Dead? Not so much. Besides the fact that he lays back restrains his playing and lets Bob really play the front man, it kills me to hear Bob and or Phil singing Jerry's songs when such a deeply soulful singer (even though he doesn't exactly sound like Jerry) is standing right next to them.


dougrhon - 5/16/2013 at 04:26 PM

quote:
I've always felt pretty much the same way you do, jpb. I would think any sane Deadhead would look at Warren as a tremendous blessing in their world, and many do, but I'm always scratching my head over how many people in that scene seem to actively dislike Warren. It's not just that they don't appreciate Dr. Haynes the way we do--they HATE him and consider him a detriment to any Dead-related project.

abbfan47 said this...

"In my opinion, The Dead and Phil and Friends aren't even in Warren's league."

I'm assuming you are talking about the post-Jerry version of "The Dead." If so, in my opinion, The Dead aren't even in Phil and Friends league Two very different beasts, to put it mildly.

Recent incarnations of The Dead have had to play down to Bobby's level, which is a shame on multiple levels, but the "Phil Lesh Quintet" with Warren and Jimmy Herring produced some of the finest, most wide-open playing of Warren's career. I just can't see that band as a waste of Warren's time.


I agree totally.


foppa - 5/16/2013 at 05:01 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:

I'm a semi Grateful Dead fan. Have a lot of there Live Stuff. I've always thought Warren was just
TOO good of a musician to be wasting his time with them. Phil and Friends also.

I'd just like to see Warren focus on the ABB, Gov't Mule and his Solo career.
In my opinion, The Dead and Phil and Friends aren't even in Warren's league.





Now that's a bold statement. The Dead by the time Warren got to them in the 2000s - I'd agree Bobby and the Drummers were no longer at Warren's level. But Phil Lesh is still a monster - and Warren has been part of some amazing Phil & Friends lineup - including one recently with Lesh, John Scofield, John Medeski, and Joe Russo where you could (though I wouldn't) make a compelling argument that Warren was the weakest link. I definitely hope Warren continues to find time to play with Phil in different combinations whenever his insane schedule allows.


The Q with Jimmy Herring was definitely a great vehicle for Warren to showcase his talents. The Dead? Not so much. Besides the fact that he lays back restrains his playing and lets Bob really play the front man, it kills me to hear Bob and or Phil singing Jerry's songs when such a deeply soulful singer (even though he doesn't exactly sound like Jerry) is standing right next to them.


Love the Q stuff. Some 99 Derek in there, as well.
Off topic, but Jazz is Dead - Laughing Waters has some epic Jimmy/Derek exploration.


nypeachhead - 5/16/2013 at 05:31 PM

The Grateful Dead ended when Jerry died. All of these reincarnations since have been for me anyway, a place to come and celebrate the music of the Grateful Dead with friends who have all exprienced the hay day. I never went there thinking this would be as good as the original but rather went to enjoy the music I know so well. The Warren element was good in my opinion because he added something different instead of trying to imtate like they are doing now. That said I will take the music anyway I can get it. Love going to see DSO,PLF, the Dead, Furthur and yes even Ratdog back in the day. For me its just been opportunities to enjoy the music I love all beit in different variations with the people I experienced the music with back in the day. Once its gone its gone, enjoy while you can in any way you can.


sixty8 - 5/16/2013 at 05:33 PM

I got to see the Grateful Dead about a dozen times before Jerry's death, the Dead a bunch of times, Ratdog a bunch of times, Further a couple of times, and different incernations of Phil & Friends over 20 times. In my honest opinion the Phil and Friends shows I saw with the Q lineup were the very best representation of Grateful Dead music that I experienced out of all of those Grateful Dead music experiences and by a large margin.

Wish I had gotten to see the original band in the 80s but by the time I started seeing them live in the early 90s they were a shell of themselves. The Quintet version of Phil & Friends was sheer magic. I would rather see Warren play in that band than in his own solo band when he isn't playing with Mule or the Brothers. I hope I get to witness the Q magic again some time before Phil hangs it up.

[Edited on 5/16/2013 by sixty8]


stormyrider - 5/16/2013 at 06:35 PM

quote:

Love the Q stuff. Some 99 Derek in there, as well.
Off topic, but Jazz is Dead - Laughing Waters has some epic Jimmy/Derek exploration.


I wasn't aware of that. Any recommeenddatiions of shows to look for?


dadof2 - 5/16/2013 at 08:29 PM

Mention was made of jazz is dead...an exceptional album.


mainebigdog - 5/16/2013 at 08:34 PM

let's face it bob weir is way past his prime.. some have said earlier the dead really died in august 1995..no question about it..phil and phriends with derek and warren were good shows as were the shows in 2004 with both warren and jimmy herring playing lead..a good cover band but not the dead..i think when warren puts his own spin on traditional jerry songs they sound great


kevinumberger - 5/16/2013 at 09:44 PM

quote:
Really, who else could have filled this role any better than Warren?




keep in mind, i love warren and love the grateful dead, but steve kimock would have been a better "replacement" after jerry died......


RobJohnson - 5/16/2013 at 11:37 PM

...and Kimock WAS an excellent "replacement" for Jerry in Phil and Friends, until there was some kind of rift between Steve and Phil and/or his wife Jill, for reasons that have never been fully explained to me.

You may already know that, kevinumberger, but if not you should seek out some of those Phil shows with Kimock. Lots of good stuff there, and I know a lot of Dead fans and Phish fans who consider the April 99 run with Kimock and Trey Anastasio to be THE most sublime post-Jerry music of any Dead-related configuration, period.


kevinumberger - 5/16/2013 at 11:50 PM

Yeah....I know his departure......I was at kimock's last show with Phil and friends in Illinois.....

Kimock and the rest of the dead crew---minus Phil--have remained friends since that incident (he has played with bobby and Mickey since then) and IMO, would have still have been a better "replacement"...

Not that warren doesn't do a good job covering the guitar work of Jerry---I just think Steve does it better...


BillyBlastoff - 5/17/2013 at 01:03 AM

The Q was a world class band.

I just went to two Mickey Hart Band shows in the space of a week. All told I've seen five Mysterium Tremendum shows. I strongly recommend going to see that band. Mickey is really pushing further.


RobJohnson - 5/17/2013 at 03:26 AM

I agree that Kimock is a better fit guitar-wise for the Dead's music, and depending on which day you ask me, I might even say he's a better overall guitarist than Warren for my taste. Kimock is the real deal, a guitarist's guitarist, almost sort of like the Danny Gatton of his generation. Given this website, maybe Jack Pearson would be a better comparison.

However, Warren is a slightly better singer than Kimock That is what made Warren a good fit in that role, he was the overall package, not just a guitar player. Same thing with Jimmy Herring. I have nothing but respect for Jimmy as a guitarist, but as a singer....did I mention he is a really, really good guitar player?

Any time you leave lead vocal duties mainly in the hands of Phil Lesh and Bob Weir, all the great guitar playing in the world won't hide that hole in the band.


lukester420 - 5/17/2013 at 04:32 AM

Agreed. as much respect as I have for Phil, I cringe whenever he steps up to the microphone.. Unless he's telling me to be an organ donor.
I've heard and or read stuff from deadheads complaining that Warren brings too much of a "Southern" feel to the dead... Whatever the hell that's supposed to mean, I always try to get the point across to these people that Jerry's primary influence was the music of Appalachia (to most of the rest of the country, "hillbilly music"). i've also come across snobby deadheads who view music like the Brothers as too country, or white trash bar music. These people I tend to ignore, because these are the people who think that 38 Special, Blackfoot, Molly Hatchet and the Allman Brothers are one in the same. But honestly Sugar Magnolia is just as country as any ABB tune, and you can't tell me tunes like I need a Miracle and Hell in a Bucket don't reek of a raggedy dive bar. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the Dead because I absolutely love them(Bobby I can take or leave, although he wrote some great tunes). I, like most of you just don't understand how people could bash such a great musician and even better human being like Dr. Warren


BIGV - 5/17/2013 at 05:49 AM

quote:
because these are the people who think that 38 Special, Blackfoot, Molly Hatchet and the Allman Brothers are one in the same.


I've believed this my whole musical life. The ABB are a Blues & Jazz tinged rock group...Not a "Southern rock" band


lukester420 - 5/17/2013 at 09:09 AM

quote:
quote:
because these are the people who think that 38 Special, Blackfoot, Molly Hatchet and the Allman Brothers are one in the same.


I've believed this my whole musical life. The ABB are a Blues & Jazz tinged rock group...Not a "Southern rock" band



Amen brother. Seems like anytime my love of the ABB comes up in my daily life people always assume that I must be a huge fan of Skynryd and that Ramblin Man is my favorite song. By the time I try and say "no no, I don't like really like what you call southern rock, I just love rockin improvisational music with jazz influences"I realize that it's not worth wasting my breath.
On the note of Warren changing his approach, I noticed that myself, not as much in '05 but when I saw em in '09 it seemed like a good 80% of his solos he was using the envelope filter. The envelope filter was a part of JG's signature sound but he only used on a handful of songs that I ever heard, Fire, Estimated Prophet, Dancin in the Streets and Shakedown and occasionally the Other One are the only ones that come to mind right now, but for whatever reason Warren was using it way too much IMO. Some of the songs it didn't stand out too much, but when he was using it on UJB I was scratching my head a bit


nypeachhead - 5/17/2013 at 01:07 PM

quote:
...and Kimock WAS an excellent "replacement" for Jerry in Phil and Friends, until there was some kind of rift between Steve and Phil and/or his wife Jill, for reasons that have never been fully explained to me.

You may already know that, kevinumberger, but if not you should seek out some of those Phil shows with Kimock. Lots of good stuff there, and I know a lot of Dead fans and Phish fans who consider the April 99 run with Kimock and Trey Anastasio to be THE most sublime post-Jerry music of any Dead-related configuration, period.


Agree with Rob that the Kimock/Trey combo in 99 was the best albeit short collaboration after Jerry died. Kimocks tone is just awesome . I wear out those shows, 4/15,16, and 17 1999


Lee - 5/17/2013 at 01:36 PM

quote:


However, Warren is a slightly better singer than Kimock


Does Kimock sing at all? I saw him several years ago at the suggestion of a former poster here and suffered through an hour and a half of no lyrics. Good good guitar but I was bored to tears.


kevinumberger - 5/17/2013 at 01:58 PM

quote:
However, Warren is a slightly better singer than Kimock



What---ya never hear Kimock sing Whack?

He nails it......


MuleFace - 5/17/2013 at 04:29 PM

quote:
The Q was a world class band.

I just went to two Mickey Hart Band shows in the space of a week. All told I've seen five Mysterium Tremendum shows. I strongly recommend going to see that band. Mickey is really pushing further.



Yup - Mickey Hart Band is killing it. A very fresh take on the songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f53ugrpvVNE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bq8eFLQ8WeM


dadof2 - 5/17/2013 at 04:43 PM

quote:
quote:
The Q was a world class band.

I just went to two Mickey Hart Band shows in the space of a week. All told I've seen five Mysterium Tremendum shows. I strongly recommend going to see that band. Mickey is really pushing further.



Yup - Mickey Hart Band is killing it. A very fresh take on the songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f53ugrpvVNE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bq8eFLQ8WeM



Like Phil's bands,these songs are both great interpretations,unlike Furthur which in its effort to imitate falls short.Mickey has different players in each band,but both fit the songs.....the cover of Cream has a sweet groove,while Ramble on Rosť has an interesting vocal approach and great,low key vibe that hits the note.

And,another vote here for kimock....I recall listening to a very late sat. night dead themed radio show when the tapes with Phil and kimock started rolling in...they were awesome....


stormyrider - 5/19/2013 at 02:42 PM

quote:
Mention was made of jazz is dead...an exceptional album.


after reading this I had to order the 1st 2 albums from Amazon. Billy Cobham is on the 1st, Derek is on the 2nd.

and
http://shnflac.net/details.php?id=e8527d9e43178cde50ad47ce5b6cb70313443526

Jazz Is Dead
1998-02-07 late show
The Bottom Line, NYC

source: dsbd
Jerry Moore's clone

sony pcm-r500 > hd-p2 >
adobe audition cs6 > tlh flac
tranfer/seed by Rob Berger may 2013

one disc: 65:19
01 - Drums > King Solomon's Marbles
02 - Unbroken Chain
03 - Scarlet Begonias >
04 - Drums > Dark Star >
05 - Help On The Way >
06 - Slipknot >
07 - Franklin's Tower
08 - Dark Star

notes: w/ Merl Saunders


slothrop8 - 5/19/2013 at 11:38 PM

quote:
quote:
Mention was made of jazz is dead...an exceptional album.


after reading this I had to order the 1st 2 albums from Amazon. Billy Cobham is on the 1st, Derek is on the 2nd.

and
http://shnflac.net/details.php?id=e8527d9e43178cde50ad47ce5b6cb70313443526

Jazz Is Dead
1998-02-07 late show
The Bottom Line, NYC

source: dsbd
Jerry Moore's clone

sony pcm-r500 > hd-p2 >
adobe audition cs6 > tlh flac
tranfer/seed by Rob Berger may 2013

one disc: 65:19
01 - Drums > King Solomon's Marbles
02 - Unbroken Chain
03 - Scarlet Begonias >
04 - Drums > Dark Star >
05 - Help On The Way >
06 - Slipknot >
07 - Franklin's Tower
08 - Dark Star

notes: w/ Merl Saunders




You will be happy with those purchases. Derek is only on 2 tracks I think - but one of them - Here Comes Sunshine with both Derek and Vassar Clements clocks in about 13:00 minutes and is worth whatever you paid for both discs combined IMO. Herring kills his solo, Clements kills his, and then Derek finishes with a magnificent solo. Recorded in early '99 - he was still 19 and would join the ABB in 2 months. Good bit of talent acquisition by the ABB there - that move worked out for them...


This thread come from : Hittin' The Web with the Allman Brothers Band
http://www.allmanbrothersband.com/

Url of this website:
http://www.allmanbrothersband.com//modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&fid=126&tid=129723